Happy New Year to Bush too

[Loreley]

Azat: I would love to give you the statistics. My books are back at my home, so when I get a chance to go home and I will post them for you.

[Azat]

Loreley: Not back home to Uruguay right?

 

So are there many Armenians there?

[Loreley]

Azat:you are right.

They say that there are about 10,000 Armenians in Uruguay but a very small (really small) percentage of it are active in the Armenian community. Especially, in the last few years, we are having this huge economic crisis (Argentina's situation affected us a lot) so people are more concerned about survival. Argentina has a much bigger community (supposedly about 100,000).

[Stormig]

All this comes down to is, Happy Birthday and Happy New Year for Bush, Jr.! Make no mistake, Happy Birthday! He's going to be born again when he fallsa ona hisa heada, an' we're gohna have a yeara withouta American-uh strikes-uh!

 

Wee wee!

 

Happy New Year, everyone, and may you/we all have off-lines!

[MosJan]

http://adbusters.org/creativeresistance/jamgallery/images/2002_11_27_bush_speech.gif

 

if you liek to help boosh stop by at this site - http://www.lemonbovril.co.uk/bushspeech/ -you can help him write a speech

 

Use big words like "comprehensive." Sprinkle in a few "innocent lives," add a drum roll and finish with a laugh track. Press play to hear the president give your spin on "violent ambitions" and "squandered lives."

 

[ December 30, 2002, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: MosJan ]

[Sip]

Woo hoo!!! Almost after exactly a year and 1500 posts, I have moved up to the second dimension!!! Give me another year and a couple more thousand posts, and I may prove to you that I am actually a 2.5 dimensional fractal

 

Dear Rubo, when I first came to this site last year, I was totally SHOCKED by the somber mood, the level of hostility against each other, and in general the extremely volatile atmosphere. After a bit of investigating, I realized there was a WEALTH of info deep hidden in the ruins ... it was sort of like stubmling on the ruins of a lost civilization of some sort!!!

 

I felt that what was seriously lacking here was a hint of a personality, a smile, a laugh, something to go hand in hand with the utterly depressing (yet extermely serious) topics that were being discussed (argued over). I didn't know what to expect, but it turned out that by just being me and not pretending to be some sort of know-it-all god creature, I got this HUGE positive feedback ... it was something that I was NOT expecting at all ... well, that made me stay around a bit to see what's going on ... and then of course the addiction sets in and you're stuck forever

[Sip]

Everyone? same time, same place? A physical impossibility as far as I know my dear VAVA. So it's probably a bit more than just a nightmare

[MosJan]

On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair

Warm smell of colitas, rising up through the air

Up ahead in the distance, I saw a shimmering light

My head grew heavy and my sight grew dim

I had to stop for the night

There she stood in the doorway;

I heard the mission bell

And I was thinking to myself,

'This could be Heaven or this could be Hell'

Then she lit up a candle and she showed me the way

There were voices down the corridor,

I thought I heard them say...

 

Welcome to the Hotel California

Such a lovely place

Such a lovely face

Plenty of room at the Hotel California

Any time of year, you can find it here

 

Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

She got a lot of pretty, pretty boys, that she calls friends

How they dance in the courtyard, sweet summer sweat.

Some dance to remember, some dance to forget

 

So I called up the Captain,

'Please bring me my wine'

He said, 'We haven't had that spirit here since nineteen sixty nine'

And still those voices are calling from far away,

Wake you up in the middle of the night

Just to hear them say...

 

Welcome to the Hotel California

Such a lovely place

Such a lovely face

They livin' it up at the Hotel California

What a nice surprise, bring your alibis

 

Mirrors on the ceiling,

The pink champagne on ice

And she said 'We are all just prisoners here, of our own device'

And in the master's chambers,

They gathered for the feast

The stab it with their steely knives,

But they just can't kill the beast

 

Last thing I remember, I was

Running for the door

I had to find the passage back

To the place I was before

'Relax,' said the night man,

We are programmed to receive.

You can checkout any time you like,

but you can never leave!

[Sip]

I like the Gipsy Kings version

 

Welcome to hotel california

Such a lovely place

Such a lovely place

Such a lovely place

Such a lovely place

 

Welcome to hotel california

Such a lovely place

Such a lovely place

Such a lovely place

Such a lovely place

 

(and then repeat)

[nairi]

Rubo jan, do you know who you really are in real life? If so, how did you find out?

 

Oh god, I just remembered, I think I already had this discussion with Sipan a while back. He seemed to have a pretty interesting theory here, which I naturally twisted around only to mess things up. Maybe you have a different perspective to this. Come to think of it, rereading that thread made me realize how much I've changed in just four months...

[vava]

Hmmm... Mosjan, are you implying that hye-forum is some sort of CULT????

 

[ December 30, 2002, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: vava ]

[MosJan]

nop:)

[Rubo]

Nairi Jan, yes you got me there.

At thirty eight I know less then what I knew at seven and I hope someday to see the world like a child again.

[Loreley]

Rubo: What you wrote is very nice. If people knew each other's background and life experiences, we will be more understanding and respectful of that person's perspective. On the other hand, it is nice to write something without having to go deep into who you are. It is the first time that I write in a forum, and I have learned a lot of things and I am learning how to see something from different perspectives. Honestly, I have a lot of feminist and radical ideas and I got used to talking to people that have similar ideas too, but since I am writing in this forum, it has been enlightening, challenging, and a learning experience to read about different ideas and ways of seeing things.

[Rubo]

Loreley, I am jealous, you can read Garcia Marques, Miguel de Unamuno, Pablo Neruda in Spanish and I have to be content with second best versions. .

BTW I agree with you on content

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rubo:

At thirty eight I know less then what I knew at seven and I hope someday to see the world like a child again.

Agree - I have always thought that age 7 is about where I peaked (OK - I realise I am leaving myself open here...LOL) - its funny - I even thought this when I was young - around that age....LOL

 

Yet (to my credit I think) - understanding (perhaps/some of) why I believe that my peak was age 7 - I have not lost my "child" (in many respects) - I continue to have a fresh perspective, immagination and openess - regarding many/most things and in general - and perhaps (hopefully) I never will lose this...

 

Added on edit: I also have always felt that - for the most part - my experiences in school ran counter to my develpment as a thinking person. I constantly battled teachers (except for a few really open/non-threatened ones who believed strongly in me) and the system...I am a high school drop out BTW....LOL

 

[ December 31, 2002, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[gamavor]

.... and Servantes and Carlos Kastaneda!

[Sip]

I don't exactly know when or how it happened, but the day I realized that I will always have more questions than answers, is the day I realized I will ALWAYS be a child.

[Loreley]

Rubo and Gamavor: I love Mario Benedetti's work and I like Jorge Luis Borges.

[Loreley]

Somedays I wish I could be a child all over again. It is scary to think about getting older

(I know that I am still very young), but then it makes you think of how much we should enjoy every moment of our lives because we are not going to live forever.

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Loreley:

Somedays I wish I could be a child all over again. It is scary to think about getting older

(I know that I am still very young), but then it makes you think of how much we should enjoy every moment of our lives because we are not going to live forever.

---

Here here - thats the crux of it isn't it now...

 

Happy New year everyone!

[Loreley]

Azat: Sorry it took me this long…..Only 30% of employed women earn more than $35,000 a year, compared with 51% of employed men. Counting only year-round, full-time workers, women college graduates, on the average, earn less than men with some college and only slightly more than men with only a high school education ($35,378, women with a bachelor’s degrees; 35,945, men with only some college; $31,215, men with high school diplomas; U.S. Census Bureau). Women constitute 98 % of secretaries, 97% of child care workers, 94% of nurses, and 81% of librarians, 75% of teachers, and 66% of social workers (low paying jobs), but only 27% of lawyers, 27% of professional athletes, 26% of physicians, 17% of dentists, and 10% of engineers. In 1997, full-time male administrative support workers earned $514 per week, compared to $403 per week for women (U.S. Department of Labor), the median weekly earnings for service workers were $317 for men and $260 for women. Women who do not work for wages spend about 70 hours per week in housework (unpaid labor), about 30 of which are devoted exclusively to child care. Women who work for wages and do housework, they work an average of 76 to 89 hour per week. We can go on and on...

Azat: you asked if women provide cheaper labor, why wouldn’t corporations hire women and save money? As Firestone says, “There is no such a thing as “pure Capitalism,” nor does “pure Patriarchy” exist, for they must of necessity coexist……The material base of Patriarchy is men’s control over women’s labor power. Patriarchy as a system of relations between men and women exists in capitalism and that in capitalist societies a healthy and strong partnership exists between patriarchy and capital.”

[Azat]

Dear Loreley, please no need to apologize.

 

Only 30% of employed women earn more than $35,000 a year, compared with 51% of employed men. Counting only year-round, full-time workers, women college graduates, on the average, earn less than men with some college and only slightly more than men with only a high school education ($35,378, women with a bachelor’s degrees; 35,945, men with only some college; $31,215, men with high school diplomas; U.S. Census Bureau).

 

Before I answer your post I would like to add 3 more stats that the US Census bureau can use to feed the "Gender Gap" machine.

1. A Female with Graduate degree earns 1/3 the salary as does a Male with a similar degree. (My sister has a masters in art history and works in a museum and earns actually less than 1/3 of what I do with a masters in business admin. this is 100% true, and it is a valid statistic, even though we all think that it is an absurd comparison)

2. Female physician(internal medicine) earns 30 less money then male physician(internal medicine). I know this too is a stupid example but it is also 100% true and it is a case with my cousin and her husband. They both work in their own practice in the same office. However she earns less than he does yet she is a much better doctor. The only reason is that she schedules patients every 40 minutes and he does every 30. She is much more caring and spends more time per patient, but statistically speaking she earns 25-30% less.

3. (i warn you in advance, this one is dumb) NBA and WNBA. The highest paid player, Shaq, this year pulls down $21 million. Meanwhile, the WNBA's best player, Cynthia Cooper, makes a paltry $76 thousand. Don't Shaq and Cynthia perform exactly the "same" work? They both play four quarters of hard ball for 12 minutes each. How dare they pay Shaq nearly 300 times as they pay Cynthia? This is also very true for the entire leagues so I say we bring down NBA to it’s knees. (Sorry, I am being a butthead here again)

 

You see this is exactly what the US Census Bureau or the Labor Board or the AAUW do when they give stats like the stats that you listed(by the way, I think these type of stats HARM very much the young ladies who look at that and just give up and don’t pursuit their dream jobs). They are not comparing apples to apples but apples to oranges. Do I think women earn less than men in general? Absolutely. Why? As I stated in my previous post and as You stated in your above post it is because they take the jobs that do not pay as much.

 

Women constitute 98 % of secretaries, 97% of child care workers, 94% of nurses, and 81% of librarians, 75% of teachers, and 66% of social workers (low paying jobs), but only 27% of lawyers, 27% of professional athletes, 26% of physicians, 17% of dentists, and 10% of engineers.

 

Furthermore, I can guarantee you that Hospitals, school districts and all the other government places pay the same rate for men as they do for women. There is not a single school district that pays male teachers more than they do female teachers. They both get paid the same low wages.

 

And to add to that, why blame on society that more women are secretaries, and child care workers and nurses, and librarians, and teachers, and social workers. They men force them into these positions. Absolutely not. Another choice that women make.

 

In 1997, full-time male administrative support workers earned $514 per week, compared to $403 per week for women (U.S. Department of Labor), the median weekly earnings for service workers were $317 for men and $260 for women.

 

I wish I had a better answer why this stat is true, but without much underlying data, I do not think we can explain it.

 

Women who do not work for wages spend about 70 hours per week in housework (unpaid labor), about 30 of which are devoted exclusively to child care. Women who work for wages and do housework, they work an average of 76 to 89 hour per week. We can go on and on...

 

This is a choice that women make. If they do not like it they should not have kids or get married. I have never said that housework or child care is easy, but it is not a mandatory burden placed on the shoulders of women(or men) it is a choice that we have to both get married and have kids and there is a price associated with that.

 

Azat: you asked if women provide cheaper labor, why wouldn’t corporations hire women and save money? As Firestone says, “There is no such a thing as “pure Capitalism,” nor does “pure Patriarchy” exist, for they must of necessity coexist……The material base of Patriarchy is men’s control over women’s labor power. Patriarchy as a system of relations between men and women exists in capitalism and that in capitalist societies a healthy and strong partnership exists between patriarchy and capital.”

 

I don’t buy this explanation. I don’t. And I guarantee you that I would (I am sure most men would)fire all my male employees and hire all females if they could do the same job for 25% cheaper than could men, but this is simply not true. Women earn relatively the same for the SAME jobs that men do.

 

This alarmist movement needs to stop. There is a reason/explanation behind the "gap" and it is not because men are insecure about their job and thus only hire other men. As recently as 1980s women comprised only 3% of MBA graduates.(guess why there are less women in high management roles)(btw today they do some 35%) They comprised of only 20% of computer science majors and less then 1% of CS master degree grads(guess why there are less women earning high salary in the high tech world) I can go on. I am sure I can find that there were more women in teacher programs(less paying job) and in the librarian program.

 

I guess what I am saying in conclusion is that I think that this alarmist notion of these different groups about the gender gap is not true. Once one compares apples to apples. Men are more risk takers in life and they do take risks and many times it does pay off. This is especially true when it comes to work.

 

I highly recommend a book that talks much about this subject by Diane Furchtgott-Roth called "Women's Figures: An Illustrated Guide to the Economic Progress of Women in America"

 

You can read the summery of her study here: http://www.aei.org/bs/bs10298.htm

And can find her book at Amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...2078240-6258558

[Sip]

I'm sure you already know that 50% of the women graduating from top Universities in the US, were ranked in the bottom half of their graduating class (among females). That's so disturbing but it's a fact of life

 

[ January 02, 2003, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Loreley]

Azat: HI. We are not never going to agree on this issue!!!!! or at least find a middle ground. I certainly do not think that men take more risks than women or viceversa. The fact that women are primarily in jobs such as teaching, childcare, housewives, secretarias is not just a coincidence. Men don't force women into those jobs, but we are socialized to be nurturing, detailed oriented, socially caring, etc. I am sorry but I don't believe that idea that we are all treated equally and there must be something wrong about those who fail. I thank you for your suggestion, and I also would like to recommend you reading: "Ain't I a Woman" by bell hooks (she doesn't use capital letters on her name on purpose). I am not saying that all women are victims or anything like that, but that there is still disparity and inequality. Some women are better position than men, but you can't deny the facts.