Patriarch Mesrob strikes again

[Guest]

Thorny

I don't want to argue with you.

 

I am here to see if any suggestion to the problems are to be found.

 

As I stated before , I am interested in pragmatic & non-dogmatic solution that does not create further violence in my homeland.

 

If you are saying that there is a pre-condition to talking i.e admittance of guilt on the part of turks including my family even we have not killed any armenian

then I have to let you know that I am not going to comply.

 

My reason is that we are innocent of these awfull charges , no one in my family has conspired with Talaat's men & organisation.

I see no reason why should I own up to something that I am not responsible for.

 

If further dialog is not possible because of this ; so be it.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by TigrannesIII:
Circassian, I suppose you're one of those who considers Armenia as the aggressor in the Artsax war?

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I consider Armenia to be deeply mistaken in it's foreign policy towards whole caucasus nations & turkey in particular.
I also think Fidel Castro is at fault too.

[ThornyRose]

I think you are wrong in thinking you cannot have responsibility. Sure, you cannot be guilty of the crimes committed against the Armenians. I cannot be, either, as my family did well with Armenian neighbors.

The reason why I think there is a major stink in this trail of thought is this: "if the snake don't do anything to me, may it live a thousand years."

Is it not our responsibility as citizens of Turkey to help those "rejected" and "abused" (be they prostitutes, drug addicts, political activists who have gone a bit too far for the sweet teeth of some, etc.) return into our society? Isn't it our moral obligation to criticize the state for improper conduct against citizens, confiscation of property, etc.? Broadening it up, can't this be true for the whole world? Shouldn't we criticize NATO or UN policies? In between, there are diasporan Armenians whose ancestors were once on our land and would have deserved a Turkish citizenship and passport like every other once-Ottoman citizen. They are not that distant from us.

If you say it is not your fault what happened to the Armenians, I can't agree more; but, hell, it is not the Armenians' fault that what happened to them actually happened. (I thought this up today and, franky, I've used it the second time. It fits like a plug in a bath-tub.) Every human being has a right to inheritance. In this, even if they cannot acquire what used to be their ancestors' properties for a number of reasons, they deserve to have the crimes against their families affirmed.

The crimes, by the way, are not being affirmed, as of yet. "We do not deny that some Armenians were killed but it was war time" doesn't cut it.

Where is the dogma in all of this?

[ThornyRose]

Question: in what way am I naive and trusting of Diasporan Armenians? Are you assuming I am taking their words for it or something? "OK, if you say so..." WRONG!

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thorny Rose:
Question: in what way am I naive and trusting of Diasporan Armenians? Are you assuming I am taking their words for it or something? "OK, if you say so..." WRONG!

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Do I need to comment further on this article ?

quote:

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Whose Genocide?

"Where are the monuments to the Turks and Muslims murdered during that century of endless genocide, one that continues today with the decimation of Chechnya?"

Melik Kaylan, The Spy

Here’s a topic I’m loath to write about: the Armenian genocide. I did so for the first time ever in a Wall Street Journal op-ed some weeks ago. Result: An incendiary rain of ad hominem abuse and threats mailed to me at addresses I’d forgotten I had. But now my colleague Charles Glass, whom I admire enormously for his solitary courage on matters Middle Eastern, has forced the issue in these very pages.

He took the position that both Clinton and Blair acted in cowardice by spurning support for Armenian genocide legislation in their respective countries. (The European Union, in the meantime, passed its version.) Such bills typically ask that the massacre and violent expulsion of Armenians in Eastern Turkey some 90 years ago be recognized today as official genocide.

Anyone who reads the source material on the original events in 1915-’16 needs a cool head and a strong stomach. There’s no question that the vicious so-called "Young Turk" regime of the time visited horrors on the indigenous Armenian community. Turkish authorities today still suppress all discussion of the topic. And I’ve never been a fan of theirs.

Yet Charlie Glass of all people should know to tread warily around Western views of the Muslim world. He knows about the demonizing and the "orientalist" bias. His good friend Prof. Edward Said literally wrote the book on it. Strangely, in Said’s Orientalism, Turks are almost never mentioned. We hear exhaustively about the West’s systematic, semantic and literary caricaturing of Arabs, Jews and Orientals of all stripes—yet almost never Turks, against whom the invective was chiefly directed for the last 500 years. The Ottoman Turks, after all, embodied the anti-West principle until the Red Scare took over.

For Said and Glass, apparently, the Turks remain unredeemable, a common sentiment in the West. If you doubt its virulence, think of how the Serbs reified the Bosnians with the epithet "Turk," invoking it as self-incitement to more slaughter throughout their own recent mini-genocide. Indeed, I could tell you deeply unpleasant personal stories of growing up as a Turk in the West. But I won’t. I’ve been in rooms where blacks, Jews and Arabs have fought over which group has suffered worse genocide over the years, and which should be more commemorated.

I deplore this morbid "victimissimo" desire to be counted among the most wronged races of history. Not because, being Turkish-born, I carry a hardwired propensity to kill Armenians and Kurds and eat their babies. Though you’d be surprised how many people think so. Proponents of the victim sweepstakes will argue that official commemoration of their own suffering protects them and others, indeed the world, from further such incidents. Unfortunately, the historical record indicates the precise opposite, that the cycle of violence is instead perpetuated ad infinitum. Think of the Serbs and their self-justifying grievances dating back some 600 years to Kosovo. Think of Israel and the Palestinians, of Hutu ferocity against their Tutsi antagonists who ruled them a century or more. Finally, consider the Armenian purge of their neighbors, the Turkic Azerbaijanis, in the Nagorno-Karabagh wars of the early 1990s.

Charles Glass, I notice, doesn’t mention this at all in his polemic. I have video footage from that particular slaughterfest. Whole Azeri villages were obliterated, including old women and children, and their livestock. Often the children were scalped. Many had their hands tied back to their ankles first. Old men with toes and toenails yanked off were left to walk over the mountain passes. Russian arms and special forces supported Armenian revanchistes in that conflict, as they have for several centuries. Naturally, neither the West nor Charlie Glass is anxious to counter-commemorate this turn in the cycle.

And there’s the rub, because in such scenarios historical complexity is the first victim, and all the others follow from that. It’s easier to view Turks in stark profile as the great predatory Antichrist, the definitive barbarous Asiatic, before purging their allies, cousins and coreligionists in the name of humanity. This is exactly what the broad Christian supremacist alliance under the Czar did before the Young Turk regime took it out on the Armenians. With the Cossacks at the vanguard, a crusading tide of Armenians, Georgians, Russians and the like pogromed into the Caucasus and Central Asia, slaughtering as they went—an experience the Jews remember well. The Turks and Armenians had lived together in relative peace for centuries until then. Armenians had prospered mightily under the terrible Turk. They built the lushest Ottoman sultans’ palaces in the 19th century. Yet when the Russians occupied Turkish Armenia as "protectors of Eastern Christendom," the local Armenians helped them massacre more Turks.

Where are the monuments to the Turks and Muslims murdered during that century of endless genocide, one that continues today with the decimation of Chechnya? Is there a Charlie Glass out there standing up bravely for their memory? Nobody in the "civilized" world has heard that side of the story, nobody cares to and nobody’s willing to tell it for fear of courting public abuse.

Genocide is a black and white concept. Once acknowledged, it brooks no shades of gray. Nobody likes to remember that it was the local Kurds who mostly carried out the actual physical slaughter of Armenians and took their land. The Kurds, victims du jour, are too oppressed for that, though their current Marxist insurrection against their allies, the Turks, is also Russian-sponsored from the north. The Kurds themselves forget that the Soviets simply "disappeared" 100,000 of their number when they recolonized and kept the briefly independent southern Caucasus in the 1920s and 1940s.
!

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It’s all so irritatingly complicated. Which is why Charlie should know better

[TigrannesIII]

On another site we more or less obliterated the Khojaly propaganda, using all Azerbaijani sources, also. Let's not forget the Artsax war was started by the pogroms of Armenians in Baku, Sumagit, and Kirovabad. My, how selective our memories are.

[THOTH]

No, Circassian, I disagree – its really not that complex at all. Oh there are certainly complex issues which might be endlessly debated, examined and discussed – but by and large the basic issue is rather simple…as stated by Mr Melik Kaylan of the Wall Street Journal:

 

There’s no question that the vicious so-called "Young Turk" regime of the time visited horrors on the indigenous Armenian community. Turkish authorities today still suppress all discussion of the topic.

 

He has stated the fundamental point in a nutshell: Horrors were enacted/visited upon the indigenous Armenian population by a vicious regime and the Turkish authorities/government today still actively suppresses discussion, spreads disinformation and absolutely refuses to admit the truth of what happened.

 

Were Muslims victimized (primarily by Russians/Cossacks) in the Caucuses and Crimea – yes certainly – though the Circassians did their share against the Russians and Cossacks as well. Does this excuse the very harsh treatment by the Russians and exile – etc? No, IMO it does not. Was it a genocide – certainly it has many aspects of such. I condemn the Russians and feel sorrow for all the people who suffered and the families that lost homes and loved ones – but these incidents – though tangentially related to the Armenian Genocide – don’t in any way justify or minimize the Armenian tragedy. And while certainly some Armenians acted poorly against their Muslim neighbors during this period – the Turkish counter claims of significant Armenian sedition and of any sort of Armenian genocide against Turks or even of civil war – are patently false. If true – why did not the famed German propaganda machine use such to justify the actions of the Turks (that they at some level, at least initially supported)? Why then do we see only German disgust at the Turkish treatment of the Armenians and have no reports (outside of 4 specific times & places) of any Armenian counter action?

 

If you, as a Circassian, wish to make an issue of your peoples genocide (and I won’t cheapen your claim and the memories of your kin by labeling it as “so-called” then I will certainly support you – but in the meantime my plate is rather full on this issue due to the existence of a government and a people, as a group, who are actively denying that such occurred to my family and extended kin. Mr Kaylan can complain all he likes about how uncomfortable or whatever various folks discussing their misfortunes – but I say tough shit for him. Because of all those peoples – only his – the Turks – take such steps to actively deny, and only the Turks and the Turkish Government is allowed to make such false and racist counterclaims against the victims – that would land others in jail or to be ostracized as a nation.

 

And though I am sensitive to his points concerning Western attitudes concerning Turks/Turkey – and understand his points – at the same time I see Turkey and Turks perpetuating their arrogant, unrepentant and uncaring demeanor – so whose fault is it really that the West maintains such attitudes? And here he is now attempting to blame the Genocide of Armenians on the Kurds. Well, buddy, for your information, various Kurdish groups (including the PKK) have admitted to their (active though secondary) role and have expressed remorse and asked for forgiveness. When will the heirs of the masterminds and the perpetrators of such show equal forthrightness and humility?

 

PS - the Karabagh issue as stated from Mr Kaylan's very Turkish, one sided, anti-Armenian perspective is both wildly overstated and factually incorrect. For his information the aggression was begun and perpetuated by the Azeris. During the course of the conflict, once Armenians were able to level the playing field, then there were incidents of brutality on both sides. It is a vast overstatement however that there was any systematic abuse by the Armenians such as he is claiming. A clear and unbiased review of the facts will show this to be true - and will clearly place the blame on all of this violence and the initiation of "ethnic cleansing" squarely on the shoulders of the Azeris.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by TigrannesIII:


On another site we more or less obliterated the Khojaly propaganda, using all Azerbaijani sources, also. Let's not forget the Artsax war was started by the pogroms of Armenians in Baku, Sumagit, and Kirovabad. My, how selective our memories are.

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What propaganda ?

Dogma is more like it.
Communism is gone but we still can not have this superficial wall removed between our people.
azerbeycan has a president who use to be in bed with politburo , georgians have good old edward who also use to be a member of politburo too oversee all this we now have the man himself mr ex-kgb & russian hope Putin palavraevski in charge of all this shazzmatazz sold as "Choice in Democracy".

We have the worlds one of the best motivated people's on planet earth ( ie diasporean armenians) constantly engaged in a battle to improve the human rights of their folk by trying to get every country to acknowledge an alleged genocide at the expense of ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE .

Nothing about the Russian human rights abuses & banditry in relation to smaller non-christian nations of the caucasus or the rest of the "soft-belly" of russia.

Still , chechniya goes on in front of the whole world & also Afghanisthan is still there even 20 years after IVAN left the country is still a mess.
If you are in Grozny or Kabul ; I can assure the forces of Evil are winning & it's been fed by russians.

For diasporean armenians to strangley remain silence to those " HUMAN RIGHTS " issue's
means they don't really care.

Despite the fact that most diasporean armenians are in a better financial situation then any of the other participants on this issue , on a personal level being richer then an afghan or a chechen or an armenian proper or a turkic person is not enough for diasporean armenians to take a breath & ask themselves the eternal question ;
Why do I as a diasporean person should not condemn russia for intefering and causing the greatest suffering to all people in my region of the world for the most part of last century.
Why do I prefer to focus on the Evils of 1915 while I prefer to remain silent on current evil actions against human kind especially if the victims happens to be the turks.

that is Dogmatic as far as an indivisual is concerned.

On a separate note to MJ ;
Care for the Crocodile Tears now ?

[ May 26, 2001: Message edited by: circassian ]

[Boghos]

Circassian,

As much as most of us Armenians would like to see an improvement in living conditions for everybody, and this includes health, education, job security, freedom of expression, movement, religion, recognition of past injustices etc. Unfortunately given our limited resources we have mostly focused on Armenian issues.

It is true however that in many countries Armenians have fought alongside the indigenous population, for example one of the biggest heroes against the Nazi occupation of France was an Armenian; Iran has in the figure of Yeprem Khan one of the heroes of its constitutionalist movement at the beginning of the century, and there are many other examples.

What I suggest is that if you want to fight human rights abuses, torture, repression of minorities: start at home. There is so much to be done in Turkey that it should occupy your and many hundreds of peoples´ time (if they are not beaten up, jailed or killed.).

Meanwhile we´ll busy ourselves with the recognition of the Armenian genocide and other issues that are closer to our hearts, but are certainly not the only ones that we deem necessary to resolve.

I, together with many of my compatriots, pray for the day when Turkey becomes a true democracy, when freedom of expression and even of religion is fully respected (why nobody talks about the massacres of Alevis, which if I remember well are Muslims and Turks, in Kahramanmarash anymore, for example ?). If you need our help, let us know.

Finally as you have yourself said: "Okuz altinda buzagi aranmaz." For the benefit of those that do not know Turkish: "Do not search for a calf under an ox".

[Guest Fadi]

Boghos you really are the MASTER.

[ThornyRose]

Ditto Thoth, Boghos, Domino, etc.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Boghos:



Circassian,

As much as most of us Armenians would like to see an improvement in living conditions for everybody, and this includes health, education, job security, freedom of expression, movement, religion, recognition of past injustices etc. Unfortunately given our limited resources we have mostly focused on Armenian issues.

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I don't believe for a second there is any diasporean armenian who wishes those higher ideals for turkey - simply beacuse it would mean a better Turkey & that is contradictory to what Diasporean Agenda dictates.

As for your limited resources ; by being selective & exclusive about armenians of 1915 you are not helping the issue of humankind's cruelty to other humankind , on the contrary you are just playing the beginning of "it's my turn".

quote:

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It is true however that in many countries Armenians have fought alongside the indigenous population, for example one of the biggest heroes against the Nazi occupation of France was an Armenian; Iran has in the figure of Yeprem Khan one of the heroes of its constitutionalist movement at the beginning of the century, and there are many other examples.

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That's good for them.

quote:

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What I suggest is that if you want to fight human rights abuses, torture, repression of minorities: start at home. There is so much to be done in Turkey that it should occupy your and many hundreds of peoples´ time (if they are not beaten up, jailed or killed.).

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Boghos it does occupy my mind too. I am not claiming the turkey to be a heaven.
I do my fighting too .
Unlike you my solutions needs to be practical & in the interest of the nation.
Sooo much to be corrected in turkey & you my friend are not seem to be helping but hindering.

quote:

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Meanwhile we´ll busy ourselves with the recognition of the Armenian genocide and other issues that are closer to our hearts, but are certainly not the only ones that we deem necessary to resolve.

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That is called political indoctrination & pursuit of dogmatism.
It might lead to a very dangeruos situation for the regional countries.
Despite all that risk , you are determine to pursue it , I have no powers to stop you & even if I did have any I doubt i would use them against your will.
One thing , I don't think you should promote what you do as morally higher cause for humanity.
So as I said it many times before ; please would you kindly get of that morality high horse , nobody is buying it any more.
You are an armenian patriot , not a humanist.

quote:

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I, together with many of my compatriots, pray for the day when Turkey becomes a true democracy, when freedom of expression and even of religion is fully respected (why nobody talks about the massacres of Alevis, which if I remember well are Muslims and Turks, in Kahramanmarash anymore, for example ?). If you need our help, let us know.

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Thanks for your prays . You do realize that there is no perfect democracy as we speak anywhere on earth.
I suspect however hard we try , we will never attain the levels of democracy that is acceptable to your higherselves.

quote:

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Finally as you have yourself said: "Okuz altinda buzagi aranmaz." For the benefit of those that do not know Turkish: "Do not search for a calf under an ox".

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Boghos
Golge etme baska ihsan istemez.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Domino:
Boghos you really are the MASTER.

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Domino

Stand down in the presence of your master & try to close that pie hole for a change ?

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thorny Rose:
Ditto Thoth, Boghos, Domino, etc.
<tired>

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Aferim sana akilli kiz.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by THOTH:
No, Circassian, I disagree – its really not that complex at all. Oh there are certainly complex issues which might be endlessly debated, examined and discussed – but by and large the basic issue is rather simple…as stated by Mr Melik Kaylan of the Wall Street Journal:

There’s no question that the vicious so-called "Young Turk" regime of the time visited horrors on the indigenous Armenian community. Turkish authorities today still suppress all discussion of the topic.

He has stated the fundamental point in a nutshell: Horrors were enacted/visited upon the indigenous Armenian population by a vicious regime and the Turkish authorities/government today still actively suppresses discussion, spreads disinformation and absolutely refuses to admit the truth of what happened.

Were Muslims victimized (primarily by Russians/Cossacks) in the Caucuses and Crimea – yes certainly – though the Circassians did their share against the Russians and Cossacks as well. Does this excuse the very harsh treatment by the Russians and exile – etc? No, IMO it does not. Was it a genocide – certainly it has many aspects of such. I condemn the Russians and feel sorrow for all the people who suffered and the families that lost homes and loved ones – but these incidents – though tangentially related to the Armenian Genocide – don’t in any way justify or minimize the Armenian tragedy. And while certainly some Armenians acted poorly against their Muslim neighbors during this period – the Turkish counter claims of significant Armenian sedition and of any sort of Armenian genocide against Turks or even of civil war – are patently false. If true – why did not the famed German propaganda machine use such to justify the actions of the Turks (that they at some level, at least initially supported)? Why then do we see only German disgust at the Turkish treatment of the Armenians and have no reports (outside of 4 specific times & places) of any Armenian counter action?

If you, as a Circassian, wish to make an issue of your peoples genocide (and I won’t cheapen your claim and the memories of your kin by labeling it as “so-called” then I will certainly support you – but in the meantime my plate is rather full on this issue due to the existence of a government and a people, as a group, who are actively denying that such occurred to my family and extended kin. Mr Kaylan can complain all he likes about how uncomfortable or whatever various folks discussing their misfortunes – but I say tough shit for him. Because of all those peoples – only his – the Turks – take such steps to actively deny, and only the Turks and the Turkish Government is allowed to make such false and racist counterclaims against the victims – that would land others in jail or to be ostracized as a nation.

And though I am sensitive to his points concerning Western attitudes concerning Turks/Turkey – and understand his points – at the same time I see Turkey and Turks perpetuating their arrogant, unrepentant and uncaring demeanor – so whose fault is it really that the West maintains such attitudes? And here he is now attempting to blame the Genocide of Armenians on the Kurds. Well, buddy, for your information, various Kurdish groups (including the PKK) have admitted to their (active though secondary) role and have expressed remorse and asked for forgiveness. When will the heirs of the masterminds and the perpetrators of such show equal forthrightness and humility?

PS - the Karabagh issue as stated from Mr Kaylan's very Turkish, one sided, anti-Armenian perspective is both wildly overstated and factually incorrect. For his information the aggression was begun and perpetuated by the Azeris. During the course of the conflict, once Armenians were able to level the playing field, then there were incidents of brutality on both sides. It is a vast overstatement however that there was any systematic abuse by the Armenians such as he is claiming. A clear and unbiased review of the facts will show this to be true - and will clearly place the blame on all of this violence and the initiation of "ethnic cleansing" squarely on the shoulders of the Azeris.

---

I reserve the right to come back on this pls.
points in particular i am going to think about are ; is there a way to break this vicious circle of blame game.

[Boghos]

Circassian,

 

Let me make a quick summary of your positions:

 

- you do not trust any diaspora Armenian

- all diaspora Armenians hate Turkey

- I am not a humanist but whatever you think I am

 

 

It is a pity that all of them are wrong. If you are here for serious and honest dialogue, so be it. But it appears to me that this is not your objective. You do not have answers but just ad hominem attacks. Hence I will not bother with you anymore.

 

Since we believe in freedom of expression, however racist, misguided and ill intentioned it maybe, you are most welcome to express your views. Something that Turks in Turkey, Kurds in Turkey and others in Turkey are not quite allowed to do. We do not have a constitution that strips citizens of their rights in certain cases.

 

Goodbye and good luck,

 

Ignegi kendine batir cuvaldizi baskasina.

 

[ May 26, 2001: Message edited by: Boghos ]

 

[ May 26, 2001: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Boghos:
Circassian,

Let me make a quick summary of your positions:

- you do not trust any diaspora Armenian
- all diaspora Armenians hate Turkey
- I am not a humanist but whatever you think I am

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That's all fine , let go back to main issue of turk bashing then shall we ?

If you are bitter at heart, sugar in the mouth will not help you

[THOTH]

Circassian - "blame game" - is this what the neo-nazi said to the Jew? Stop complaining about the ovens - by the way you deserved it? Quit your crying...we are above reproach....etc

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by THOTH:
Circassian - "blame game" - is this what the neo-nazi said to the Jew? Stop complaining about the ovens - by the way you deserved it? Quit your crying...we are above reproach....etc

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THOTH
you are not a jew
I am not a german
it's not the same at all.

[Guest]

nobody said it would be easy.

what is your suggestion ?

that is if you have any.

[nairakev]

Nelson Mandela is a unique person. Guys like him do appear once in human history. If you think that evry armenian church clerical should be like Nelson Mandela, I would get bapthised tomorrow.

I don't think that after many arrests (and not only of armenian church representatives but also assirian and greek, as well), Mr Mesrob II, will have huge balls to say something agsint turkish "power" machine. Probably, many of you remember, when Saddam was showing to the whole world televised performance with jewish rabbis in Baghdad during the Golf war. Everyone was smiling and behaving cool. Like if jews had absolutely no god damn problem in Iraq.
Isn't it violent in a country which counts hundreads of imprisoned political activists, and got climbed to Amnesty International's hit-parade of states with serious records of Human Rights violations, ask a religious person 'If he does thing that armenian genocide existed or not?'
Did those who asked this "poor creature" primitively formuled question, what was the position of the Armenian Church regarding the Armenian Genocide?
It's like they did not know what is the Official position of Armenian Church!
Diga me that, bendejo!
Like if those "office rats", who present themselves, as a part of modern Turkey's think tank, so called liberal journalists of "turkish" junta, never visited the official website of Armenian Apostolic Church. http://www.armenianchurch.org/t-1-genocide.jsp

[nairakev]

Sorry!
I didn't understand to which message was this reply.