Recent encounter with a Turk online

[TigrannesIII]

A Turk, one to joke about death..... irony?

What goes around comes around. Turan would be more of a reality if you guys just packed your bags and went to East Turkestan. Chinese would love that.

[MJ]

At the end of the day, when the psychopat idiots are gone, normal people of both nations would sit together and figure out things with common sense and rationality.

 

But things cannot come together, if we are denied even our history. After all, that's almost all we are left with.

[TigrannesIII]

You say 'massacre of Armenians', the Turkish gov't doesn't care. You say 'Genocide' Turkey starts crying like a little girl. Why is that? They fear reparations.

MJ, you too, want your check in USD, not liras, right? My liras will be worth less than a dram soon.

[MJ]

I think not only your liras, but also everything in your upper compartment is worthless and corrupt.

 

I have seen a lot of cowards in my life, who make big speaches in partisan clubs, but lie on the battlefield pretending dead when it is time to fight. And then, they come to the Internet to "fight a war of words." Nothing more, nothing less, but disgust...

[TigrannesIII]

hey, i know we don't get along, i was just trying to be friendly, but if you're gonna be an asshole, **** you too

[art]

[ April 30, 2001: Message edited by: art ]

[art]

MJ I have always respected you. But, I think what you said to Tigranness was not called for. Let him live his life with his beliefs(like many in AYF) just like he lets you. He might at times seem radical but that is just because of his love for Armenia and Armenians.

 

Circissian as far as you talking about being unbiased and having feelings for the other side is a complete lie. As I recall seeing you in turkey.com where you bash at Armenians and after many documents were submitted to you you still are a ignorant liar like many of the Turks.

 

[ April 30, 2001: Message edited by: art ]

[Guest]

Art

Don't you know it all ?

[Guest]

Did you also pay any attention to postings that praised armenians ?

or

did you just look at the ones where I get really angry with some armenians?

 

truth is ;

you are busy shouting , have no time to listen nor hear.

 

Ask yourself this ; who do you think I am ?

A turk or A circassian ?

 

You are incredibly good at ignorance.

[TigrannesIII]

You are both, Filiz.

[art]

You are a Circissian who denies the Armenian Genocide the way many Turks do. Please don't say that you have praised Armenians. You are full of lies. I do listen when it comes to people I respect.

[Artur]

MJ, Tigrennes, it is shame! Whoever started! In the presence of foreigner!

 

By the way, circassian, are you circassian? If you were, i don't think that you'd be acting like a turk. I mean Most of the Circassians have got nothing against Armenians, and mostly don't care about genocide issue and it is none of their business.

 

For me it is surprise to see a circassian talking about genocide issue of Armenians.

 

Well, if you're half, then change your name to circass/turk or something.

 

By the way, to which circassian peoples do you belong?

 

 

Artur

[Berj]

Circassian,

How about "This is all a big lie". I mean everything you wrote. How about "There was a war between Chircassians and Chechens, and Chechens managed to get you out of the Caucasus, and the Russians had nothing to do with it". Or "Circassians were not loyal to Russians and colaborated with the Turks, so the Russians had full right to elliminate them". And also, "from 1830s to 1890s 3 mln Russian soldgers and civilians were killed by Circassians, so the Russians campains in the Caucasus were directed at the bad guys, Chircassians".

Does this sound familiar to you? I think if you put "Turks" and "Armenians", instead of "Russians" and "Chircassians" in the sentences above it will become familiar to you...

[Artur]

Berj, i mean the guy not only does not know his own history or past, it seems like he doesn't know the present of his coutry (republic). Who is murdering who? Your so called brothers in KBR are living in peace. Chechnya problem has got nothing to do with Kabarda. You can go there at any time you want and nobody will say anything.

 

I mean, you are totally became a turk. I am sure you know full history of Turkey but you don't know where Kabarda located.

 

Anyways, this is what kind of picutre i get about you from your posts.

 

 

Moreover, if you are not a Turk why do you defend them against Armenians??? And if russians killed you ancestors, why don't you visit some russian forum?

 

Interesting ...

[Guest]

My family has been on exile since 1864. I am originally from the region of Kumukh & kabarday.

 

I have never talked about revenge in relation to russians.Past is past.

 

I was born in Turkey into a distinct cerkhes

culture which was all made up from different tribes from kavkaz.

 

There are 6 million of us in Turkey.

Most of circassians have been eliminated from the Caucasus thanks ro russians.

 

We are still waiting for Ivan to go home so perhaps one day we can go back to where we came from.

 

My great great uncle who died aged 108 use to tell us the horrors that have been inflicted upon them by russians. I don't really need to remind any one here about the situation in Chechniya , 140 years on , nothing has changed in my land , russians are still occupiying,murdering,raping and erasing my kind from the face of the earth.

 

Unfortunately it's not working & creating more horrors for those humans that are involved in this cruel & sick game.

 

We all are living in a different world then our ancestors did.

 

Realistic proposals which are aimed towards solving the problems between the nations of the region always welcome & appreciated.

 

I would like to start the process with the question of living together.

 

How can we accomodate the request of diasporian armenians with the consensus of turkish people.

Is reverse immigration an option ?

what about some kind of dual -triple citizenships of related countries for the concerned parties ?

 

One thing for sure , giving land is not a consensual option.

[TigrannesIII]

That's all nice and everything, but if I go to my Hayrenik (Fatherland) I have to fly to TURKEY, pay TURKS for my transportation, pay TURKS for my foodstuffs, pay TURKS for my tourism, etc. Why should the TURKISH economy get my $$$$$$$$ so that I, an ARMENIAN, can go look at ARMENIAN lands and ARMENIAN churches??? Is that fair? Hell no.

And if you think that within the next 100 years Ararat and Ani will still be Turkish, you're on crack.

[Guest]

Artur

 

You really are out of your depth here. Kabarda people are NOT happy living under the russian rule.

Notion of Self-determination somewhat applies to them too.

 

As to me becoming a " TURK " ; yes of course i have & proud to be one too.

I guess that is also a crime in the armenian moral court but here i am.

 

I have asked one single & simple question in relation to diasporean armenians demands from turkish republic.

I have also stated that i am open to discussing consensual solutions that does not create violence for the parties involved.

 

So far I am getting some abuse , some ignorance& little interest from armenians on this forum.

 

Understand this ; you are asking me to hand you my house keys within hundred years & pack my bags & move to central asia.

Your problem is that I not from central asia , kumukh in dagestan or Jenak in kabarday is not really far from erivan.

 

hmmm , maybe there really is no way to communicate after all.

[Artur]

Circassian, again you prove that you have nothing to do with KBR. I have plenty of friends Kabardins or Balkaras, Cherkes, Karachay etc. Do they complain that russia rules their country??? No! Do they feel being independent? Do they get abuses from russians? Well we are as Caucasians get some problems in Moscow or russia generally, but thats another matter and has got more or less nothing to with politics.

 

I suggest you to visit your country. Moreover if you want i'll give you a couple of e-mails of guys from KBR and you can ask them about their country.

 

And at the end of the day, if Kabardins, Daghestanis, Ingushs etc. would feel like breaking away they would do the same as Chechnya. Moreover, after first Chechen war they could have taken a chance of breaking away, while Russians "lost" to chechens. So, logically speaking your "brothers" could have broken away if they'd feel like breaking away from RUssia. But i don't think so. With economic problems that all North Caucasian republics have, it is better for them to stick with Russians.

 

 

Good luck!

[bellthecat]

Actually, Turkey's Circassian population did actively participate in the Armenian genocide. In eastern Turkey, most of the actual "hands-on" killing was done by the Kurds - but when the surviving deportees reached the deserts of northern Syria there was no kurdish population to finish off the survivors, and the Arab population refused to participate. The Turks went to the Circassian villages in that region, since they were all fanatical Muslims, and literally adored the process of killing Christians, they were very willing to become involved.

The Circassians ended up in northern Syria because when they left Russian territory the peoples of Turkey were aghast at the prospect of having these persons living next to them - 19th century travel literature about Turkey has many examples of their murderous exploits - that almost the only place in Turkey that could be found to take them was the then uninhabited plains of northern Syria.

Steve

[Guest]

Here it comes from all quarters.

This really is bordering on ridicule.

I guess nobody is really interested in talking.

When you are done with your childish accusations about me , when you have alienated me enough from anything to do with armenian , you are going to accuse me of being a denialist.

 

Hmmm , consensus politics , anyone ?

[MJ]

Yes, Circassian. Those may be found. But do you have an appropriate mandate from the Turkish Government to build consensus? From our side, we don't have such mandate. All we can do is to discuss and understand the problem, and try to figure out how to go from here. Building a consensus with real implications will be the prerogative of the government. But what we could do with you is, first to recognize the facts. The consensus starts there. So, it is your move.

[Guest]

Thank you for your reply.

 

Do you mean to say that I need to accept your version of history and only then "Talk" can be achieved ?

 

Has it ever occur to you that i may not subscribe to your point of view of the events in question but i may still want a better future for everybody concerned.

 

If your idea of a free speech involves attacking people who defends the opposite point of view then may I suggest that this is a futile way to proceed and it is doomed for a failure.

 

You are asking me to vacate my house , excuse me while I investigate as to why should I comply.

 

Still waiting for a realistic suggestions that are also pragmatic and not blood thirsty.

 

If you are going to forcibly re-locate me as lots of armenians have indicated then why do you expect me to smile.

[MJ]

First of all, you don’t know what my verson of history is. I also don’t know what your version is. What we can do first is, to see how different our versions are.

 

I am not aware of attacks on you on the grounds of the exercise of the free speech. Our forums content may attest to the fact that there has been a very high threshold of tolerance towards alternative views in this forum, and the “attacks” have been marginal.

 

Let’s also understand that we have not asked you to vacate your house. First of all, the only party that could ask it is the Government of Armenia, which hasn’t don it, yet. To the contrary, it has taken a very different approach. So the insinuations of requests of “vacating your house” are somewhat not truthful. As to the hyperventilating of bloodthirsty adventurists with an urge of avenge from the Armenian side, you have to understand that in most of the cases you deal with 17 years old kids, who under the best scenario, try to impress the adults. So if you are going to take them as the basis of your conclusions, then I have to question your sincerity. Sorry for the abruptness.

 

I think it has to be clear from the above that the “danger of your relocation” is somewhat a fairy tail with the purpose of diverting the issue from its real substance. I hope and believe that it is not your personal intention, and is just a manifestations of an established Turkish doctrine.

 

Finally, I have no “realistic suggestions.” We are not in the business of making deals in this forum. We have no such mandate, and all of us express our personal opinions, which theoretically speaking, have as much chance for being accepted by the Armenian Government as they have with the Turkish Government.

 

It is apparent also that you have a good will, and you are trying to find a resolution to the problem. However, I cannot understand what problem are you trying to resolve. If you could articulate it in some details, it would greatly help to facilitate the dialog. I will reply to you as soon as I can commit time to the forum. You wouldn’t remain unanswered, no matter how slow the responses may come.

[MJ]

More specifically?

[Guest]

MJ

 

I have been visiting this site for about 4-5 months now.

I have read lots of posting - including yours. To my mind the differences between your version & mine is a matter of interpretation.

I would view killing of armenians from the point of the humanity & continuinity with a view to repairment & recognition of suffering for ALL parties involved.

 

As a circassian - turk it is in my interest to have humanity recognise suffering where ever it may occur.

 

After years of reading material from both sides & fully understanding what information manipulation means in content - i am inclined to conclude there is indeed no proof as yet for alleged genocide.

 

I would also like to state that if some turkish - armenians in turkey decides to claim that there was indeed a genocidal policy & therefore something must be done ;

 

I would vouch my full support & further more

 

I would guess that most turks(armenian or circassian or laz or kurd or bosniak..etc,etc) would welcome an inquiry to put this matter at rest & get on with life.

 

In my opinion this open approach to this delicate matter would yield more positive results then the current one.

 

One of the problems as I see it ; is the diasporean armenians thinking that turkish armenians are somewhat hostage to the state or harrassed by fanatical turks on their day to day lives.

 

Perhaps nobody is THAT naive to believe that.

 

Armenian youth of today in turkey & turkish armenians are definetely not same.

 

To me what really matters is what my fellow turkish armenian citizens do & say.

 

One other point is the futility of argumentative politics as oppose to consensual politics.

 

I think i would like to see a kavkaz made of all the small nation that are currently represented by russians.

Armenia & armenians in yerevan are welcome , as long as they don't start asking irrelevant questions that almost always fringe's on the verge of insult & offence.

 

God knows we have suffered too.

(circassians or turks or kurds or laz or any other you may care to remember along armenians of ww1,also prayers for chechen people who only want their freedom.)

 

Try not to hog it as they say in Tottenham.