Recent encounter with a Turk online

[MJ]

Circassian,

 

People are free to give interpretations. But facts are stubborn things.

No doubt a lot of people have been killed and suffered from all sides, and I am ready to bow my head to the innocent victims of all nationalities – Turkish, Circassian, Assoy, Greek, etc. But the issue of the Armenian Genocide is not just about being killed or suffered. It is about the systematic policy of the Ottoman Government on the attempt to annihilate the entire Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire. Otherwise al types of people have been killed during the wars – military or civilian, and at all times. What we are talking here is using the WW1 as a pretext to wipe out an entire race. More disgustingly, an entire generation of contemporary Turks is attempting to use the WW1 as a pretext for the mitigation of the crime of Genocide. Some do it innocently, since they haven’t been exposed to the truth, others choose to do it as a continuation of once the Ottoman Turkish policy.

 

You make sweeping statements about the manipulation of information, and you make sweeping statements regarding reading a lot of materials. You conclude that indeed there is no proof that the Genocide has happened. However, your statement would be more trustworthy if you could provide some references in what have you read. Not to make the task to overwhelming, I would appreciate if you could just concentrate on the materials that have been provided at Hye Forum, only, and explain us in what way they don’t provide enough evidence on the occurrence of the Genocide.

 

Even if I would take your word that there is no adequate proof on the occurrence of the Genocide, you have to admit that the lack of proof itself doesn’t attest to a fact that it has not taken place. I don’t know how much are you aware of the judicial process with allegations of OJ Simpson’s killings of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman, but with all the overwhelming evidence, the jury didn’t find OJ guilty. Does it mean he didn’t do the killings? I doubt so. But I recognize that as an alleging party, the burden of the proof is on us. And we will do our best to make the case in the courts of the world, no matter how uphill of a battle it may be.

 

To be frank, I couldn’t quite understand the meaning of your sentence: “I would also like to state that if some turkish - armenians in turkey decides to claim that there was indeed a genocidal policy & therefore something must be done;” I think it begs for further elaboration.

 

I am very happy to hear that most of the Turkish citizens would encourage the inquiry on the subject of the Genocide, and would be happy to put it to rest. I am waiting to see it happen. I am glad at least to learn that you would be among them.

As to the Diasporan Armenians’ thinking about the Turkish Armenians being of hostage, it is not the only opinion they express. Even in our forum, some think that it is partially because of being hostage, and partially because of being corrupt. I would refrain making statements on this regard, since I think it is incorrect to try to read somebody else’ mind, and would leave that judgment to those who have had a first hand encounter with the Turkish Armenians. I haven’t. Though, wile residing in Armenia, I have met a Turkish Armenian resident from Istanbul, who after his marriage with a local Armenian lady had established residency in Yerevan, and was very vocal about the motivation of the Turkish Armenians – especially those from Istanbul. As I said, I would refrain from expressing opinions on this subject.

 

But I think that the naiveness, as a matter of principle, may be rather manifested in taking the word of Turkish Armenian citizens of Turkey, who in fact are the ones (or the descendants) who for one or another reason have not been subjected to a Genocide. Besides, I am not aware of statement from them denying the Genocide. From what I understand, they don’t want the issue to come up to the surface. Maybe it might disturb their comfort.

 

To the contrary what you say, it doesn’t matter for us, especially as far as the subject of the Genocide is concerned, what the current Turkish Armenians say. They have no say on the subject of the crime that has been committed against my and others’ ancestors.

 

No doubt politics should be consensual. I have no arguments about that. But the facts and the reaction towards crimes cannot be consensual.

I think Armenians of Yerevan are comfortable with where they are, and even though I have to thank you for your invitation to join a Caucasian confederation (I presume), I think Armenia would be better served as an independent state. And thus, we would reserve the right of asking any questions, and moreover, making statements. But I can assure you that we have no intention of insulting or offending anybody. We just want to see justice prevailed, and we will continue to do so.

My heart goes out for all the innocent victims of WW1, and I express my deepest sympathies to their descendents regardless of their ethnic background. However, if I understand correctly, none of these presumably peaceful people have been massacred by the direct order of the Ottoman Turkey. And if they have, I think you should join us in demanding justice, or at least recognition for all.

 

I hope this is not what is called “hogging” in Tottenham.

 

P.S. It is sort of a tradition in our forum to ask our Turkish friends to introduce themselves so that we can grasp better their persona. Would you mind doing it for us, please?

[Guest]

MJ

admittedly, thinking for an appropiate reply has taken some time.

 

If an armenian-turkish citizens/organisations in turkey , petitions the turkish parliament for an inquiry about the events of ww1 , they would have my support and my vote.

 

What has happened in ww1 can only be discussed & re-interpreted within the democratic procedures of parliement.

As far as I know , there is no consitutional restriction on anybody in turkey to demand an inquiry into these alleged events.

 

Furthermore , i belive that if armenian-turks wanted to give credibility to what you are claiming , they would do so.

My natural conclusion is that armenian ethnic turks have as much stake in survival of turkish rebuplic as i do as a circassian turk.

One point that the diasporean armenians don't get about turkey is , it's richness in culture, in tradition and different ethnic people who also call themselves turk.

 

This may seem like a small point but by attacking the " Turk " , you are awakening the turkishness in every ethnic turk. call it cornered cat syndrome if you like.

 

I would disagree with your claim of making sweeping statements and furthermore I would say LOL to your request for the names of the books that i have read. Excuse me for feeling giddy.

 

On the positive side , i would agree that the absence of evidence does not prove that the alleged did not happened. Perhaps there are even some more documents that we'll discover in ottoman archives which proves you correct. If that happens , you can have my unreserved apoligy.

 

 

I thought OJ has been set up by government agents. I never believed that he was guilty as charged. Court has proved me correct.

There is a clear difference perhaps we can argue about if you like .

 

Your are slightly suggesting that the armenian turks are some what corrupt and don't represent what is " Common Good " for armenians at large. I would kindly disgaree and point to a little fact called national security. All armenian man also serve in all organs of the state. Nothing unusual there is it ? just contuniation of both our ancestors traditions.

I wish more armenian turks have joined the political arena in turkey.

 

Armenian turks know better then any one of diasporean armenians.

If there are any armenian turk who is reading this forum ; why don't you guys join the political parties & act more visible so nobody is under any false illusions.

 

MJ

 

Russians have managed to ravage & exploit the area under the communist dictatorship for most of the last century. It is not possible to implement the moscow law in caucasus and you know it. Similarly , it's not advisable to have turkish or iranian big brothers patrolling the borders between the small nations of caucasus.

If benelux countries can do it , so should we.

I have a funny memory that happened when I was in Batum(georgia) several years back and have been invited for a fish supper with mayor of town and some other folk.

 

After some good fish from black sea & few bottle's of raki , mayor has had no hesitation to declare the fact that the was planning to put up a turkish flag as soon as he saw the first red army tanks rolling into his country.

 

We are all small nations of caucasus , we are scared of one another.

My family has slavic feature's that comes from russian slaves that my ancestors have taken and kept as one of us. Russians have managed to destroy pretty much everything they touched in caucasus so far.

Everything they do & touch , there is corruption and war.

 

If you an ahzeri living in your village , minding your own business , one night in the dark you hear screams & realize that your village is under attack from an automatic gun fire. When you can positon yourself safley and peek at who is doing the shooting ? you are most likely to see a group of men all dressed up in dark black and wearing balaklava's

and killing like crazy.

 

Just replicate the word ahzeri with an armenian above.

 

If you don't see the vicious cycle and who benefits most from it , do you really understand what is being done in your name ?

 

 

p.s this IS called hogging in tottenham.

[MJ]

Circussian,

 

I also, much like you, perceive Armenians of Turkey just as citizens of Turkey with their loyalty to the Turkish flag. On that capacity I don’t see them being any more interested in the recognition of the Genocide than, say the Circassian or Abkhazian minorities of Turkey. But I am glad that you would support them in case they decide to petition the parliament of Turkey.

 

But I think, before that petition can take place, Turkish society has a long way to go. First, the subject has to become subject open for discussions in the pages of Turkish newspapers and on the screens of the TV. As you might recall, I have posted an information in the Us v. Them thread on a Turkish publisher being sentenced to 11-month term few years ago (I think 11 months) for publishing a book supporting the allegation of the Armenian Genocide. I had promised Oz to verify his name. Ironically, a week ago I spoke to an Armenian historian for about 20 minutes, who could verify the publisher’s name, and then we hung up forgetting about it. I will call him again as soon as possible to get the name.

 

Actually, I also think that the Armenian Genocide has to be discussed within the framework of democratic institutions. But while there may be no constitutional restrictions on such discussions and inquiry, apparently the subject is still taboo in modern Turkey, while the government of Athaturk had been more open to it, and had recognized it at the time.

 

But one thing I have to emphasize while disagreeing with you is that the Turkish Armenians are in no position to give to this claim credibility or to strip the claim off of credibility.

 

Theoretically you may be right about the participation of Turkish Armenians in Turkish parliamentary process. We have Turkish Armenians in our forum, and I think they can give their opinion on this. However, the activism of the Armenian minority in Turkish parliamentary and revolutionary movement of Ottoman Empire in early 20th century, and their strong affiliation with the Young Turks’ movement has been one of the primary reasons of the Genocide. Apparently, when Armenians of Turkey have started to become an organized and politicized minority in Ottoman Turkey, they have been perceived as a big threat to the Empire, and have been wiped out. Additionally, interestingly enough, our good friend Ali has told us that there is evidence that some modern ultra-nationalist Turkish political parties are founded by Armenians hiding their true identity.

 

As to attacking the “Turks,” personally, I would not like to see anything of the type, but rather a constructive discussion and collaboration. Sure, not all of the Armenians can deal with this issue with adequate rationalism. Some do it because they still have horrible memories that they have not been able to deal with, others would do it because it is a safe way of coming across as a “good Armenian.” This is unfortunate, but I am sure things consistently move in the right direction. It’s just a matter of time.

 

By the way, on the subject of your statement regarding OJ Simpson, it would be my turn to say LOL.

 

I also want to clarify that I have not meant that you give us the names of the books that you have read. What I have meant was that it normally makes not a good impression when people make statements referring to unknown sources of information to back their arguments up. It is always good to provide references to the sources of information, when the argument is so highly sensitive.

See, one of the problems is that the archives of the Ottoman Empire are still only selectively open to the public, despite the promises made several years ago. Besides, many suspect that in totalitarian regimes like the Republic of Turkey currently is, many documents may be easily destroyed without leaving a trace behind. And the very fact of “opening” the archives, but not really opening them is a source of significant suspicion.

 

On the subject of your verification and subsequent apology, I have to encourage you to study the issue further with an open mind, and if you would come to a conclusion to apologize, many of us (perhaps not all) would accept the apology.

 

I have to also add that I am not suggesting that Turkish Armenians are corrupt. I have said that there is such opinion. Actually, now I recall a conversation I have had with a Turkish Armenian while working at UCLA, who was uncomfortable with the attempts of other Armenians to bring to the surface the subject of the Genocide. His basis of discomfort was not that he believed it had not happened, but just “let it go. Why are you pushing an 80 years old event to the surface?”

 

There is no question that Russians have implicit participation in the Genocide of Armenians. They could perfectly understand the destiny of Armenians that were being left behind in the result of their retreat, and they could perfectly anticipate it when appealing to the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire to join their "invincible Army." They just didn’t care. This is their crime. But the executers and the masterminds of the Genocide were the high ranking Turks.

 

I am far from a thought that the Russian Empire has been much better than the Ottoman Empire, or that the Russian Kozaks have been any better than the Tukrish Hamidies (not sure about the spelling). However, I would refrain from overemphasizing the Russian responsibility in the Genocide and underemphasizing the Turkish responsibility. But when it comes to the lose of Armenian statehood and the Armenian lands, I would hold Russians responsible for it, first, and then the Turks.

 

And sure, the Russian forces have never been angels in Caucasus, and their advancement to Caucasus has been a pure occupation. Evne the Soviet propaganda has accepted this fact. They have brought much trouble to the region and have sunk it in blood. Moreover, they have turned the nations of Caucasus against each other – the infamous British policy of “divide and conquer.” In fact, until 1905, Armenians and what would later be called Azeries (for special purposes), have lived together in peace. It is documented in the Russian literature that the hostilities between Armenians and then Caucasian Tatars have been planted by the special services of the Russian Empire, and by the order of General-Governor of Caucasus Golitsin.

 

Your story about Batumy is quite interesting. Did you know that Batumy had been passed to Georgia (read Russia) in 1921 as a result of the infamous Russo-Turkish treaty of 1921. It was a swap – Turkey passed to Georgia Adjaria, while Russia passed to Turkey Kars, Ardahan, Surmalu, etc. But I am sort of puzzled with the reaction of the mayer of Batumy you described, since when it comes to a confrontation with Tbilisi, the leadership of Adjaria is playing the Russian card very vigorously.

 

But by in large, the way you feel about Russians, Armenians feel about Turks, because this is what Turks have done to Armenia and Armenians for centuries.

 

And it may be that some benefit in our name. But the sole reason of it is the current stance of the Turkish government towards the Republic of Armenia. It is the Republic of Turkey which doesn’t leave Armenia with other alternatives.

 

P.S. Apparently, I am still not fluent with the vocabulary of Tottenham.

 

[ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Guest Fadi]

I want just to say you peoples, to be aware of Circassian. This guy is not here for any constructif dialogue. He is just playing a game with you all, and waiting to be attacked by Armenians in order to show it in a Turkish forum, he has don this for the same board after that his messages have been deleted in the guess book, or kicked out from the chat room some times ago(This is what he told).

 

This guy is just playing a childish game of competition with me, since I have been attacked in a Turkish board on all side, this guy want to show that Armenian boards are worst, he want to play the victime, that say nothing and is attacked.

 

As for his version and Armenians etc... any kind of dialogue with him is worthless. This guy is a racist, that said many things about the Armenians, I will not post them here to disturb the board, this such as that snakes should be trusted before Armenians, that Armenians are untrustworthy, liars, our grandparents traitors, I was talking about my grandfather, how he was a genocide suviver how he lost everything, this idiot answered by saying. When my granfather will go at Turkey to excuse himself of what he don ? More also maybe he should show the collections of pictures he has don, with Armenian logos' with above a message, "The Republic of Armenia, the Untrsutworthy Republic" etc...

 

No one here has to provide any references for him, the board were he come from, has hundreds of references and works, many even not present on the web elswere.

 

Regards

[MJ]

Hello Domino,

 

Welcome to the Hye Forum and thanks for your note. Could you introduce yourself, please.

 

We, at the Hye Forum, have no reasons to fear provocations or manipulations. We are people of good will, and we are ready to give the benefit of doubt to anybody, and anybody who wants to engage with us in a dialog is welcome here.

 

If some would choose to use it for other purposes - too bad for them. After all, what would be achieved in the result? That Armenians and Turks may hate each other more than they do currently? Is it possible? Or then what? What purpose would this serve?

 

 

After all, we are not trying to satisfy some animalistic urges, right?

[Guest]

Domino

 

Am I getting to your thick brain ?

 

You mean to say that you are not a

turk-hater bigot motivated by the final aim of destroying my home ?

 

Domino people like you destroy anything that has a chance of working between the turks & armenians.

 

I would suggest that you give it up.

 

As your grandpa being a traitor to his nation ; i am not taking anything back & you know the reason.

 

One thing that i will grant you ; very good at advancing the russian point of view inmy homeland.

 

As for your famous accusation of the famous quote :

 

Never trust an armenian is also mentioned on this site too .

Further more it's mentioned without any of the racist connotations that you have attached to it.

 

Domino you are a danger to peace in the region , your brain is washed by your parents and collective efforts of armenian diasporean organisations(i.e russian); you have no real interest in dialog until & unless your opponent admits to your point of view.

 

In short you are a typical middle eastern thug without any understanding of the TURK.

 

:-0)

 

Good Luck in your life

[Guest Fadi]

Hi,

 

Well, I am a Montreal Canadian student, others may know me with the name Imasdun on other boards. I think I know you, in the past if you are the same Martin then the one on Ararat board.

 

About Circassian, maybe you are right, but I'm sure that he will not post here anymore. The guy was having fun of posting Ara Balozian posts in a Turkish forum, without mentioning, that Ara is a self Critic Armenian author, he was using it as Armenian admitions etc...

 

Maybe I could exchange my knowledge conserning the Armenian genocide here, since I read many of the posts, including some of yours, that are different then my conclusions, more importantly about "the reasons" of the genocide etc...

 

I also read Ali, interesting postings, it's about with this kind of Turks that I like to engage coversation, his still and essays, are similair then Pigeti ones. Maybe I could repost my essays on this board and wait for his answer, just to see what kind of different critics I would have etc...

 

Regard.

[MJ]

Guys,

 

For the sake of the positive atmosphere in this forum, for which we have been working hard, I would appreciate if you wouldn't transfer the legacy of your prior relationship in here.

[Guest Fadi]

I must say that I ignore the above person called Circassian and don,t answer him for mounths, the reason of this, is because he owe me an apology of what he sai about my grandfather, like the rest of the grandparents survivers of genocide.

 

Better to ignore Circassian the racist.

[Guest Fadi]

You are right Martin, I will just ignore him, like I have don for more then 5 mounths.

[MJ]

Domino,

 

It's fine. As long as all of us can maintain the norms of ethics and minimal professionalism, everything is fine. But we are not "Internet worriers" here, and for those who are positioned to fight a "war," there are other sites and forums for it, or better there are other places. We are trying to be a forum of reason and sense. Anybody who wants to talk reason or sense is welcome here.

 

Your are free and welcome to introduce us to your reasoning behind the Genocide, and so is Circassian, and so is anybody else. We would read them with great interest.

 

Not for the two of you, but for everybody in the forum, on behalf of the moderators and the administrator of the forum, I have to remind that now we have a formal Code of Conduct in this forum. In the past we might've not vigorously exercised it, and I, personally, might've occasionally violated it. But we are currently poised to exercise vigorously the "Rule of Three Strikes." The third violation of the Code of Conduct by the same member will result in termination of his/her account.

 

Finally, now that I know your other online name, yes, I remember coming across in Arart’s forum, and welcome again.

 

[ May 10, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[Guest]

Oh this takes the biscuit as well , am I mistaken or has my recent post been in some sort of violation of this forum ?

There could be other explanations as to why my reply to Domino character is DELETED.

 

Perhaps someone would be kind enough to explain how does it work.

Try to explain it like as if I am " a 6 year old " :-)

[MJ]

OK, Circassian, it works like this: when a moderator asks you and others to hold the rhetoric, and not to personalize, you and the others do it. And when your counterparty decides to "ignore" you, your best bet is to “ignore” him, too. But if you decide to, nevertheless, argue do it at least on the merits. This was for the 6 years olds.

 

This one is for the adults: please follow the Code of Conduct of the Hye Forum, which has delivered to the attention of all members of the forum a while ago through a special email from the Administrator. If for whatever reasons you don't have the text of the Code, we would gladly post it here.

[Guest]

a-ha now it's clearer !!! except fpr the fact that Domino's calling me names are not deemed personal but when I reply with a statement saying that he is full of it as usual ; this gets the editorial chop !!

 

makes sense ...kinda ... double standarts

in'nit !!!

[MJ]

No, it is not a double standard. He did it before the Moderator's warning, and stopped after the warning was issued. You continued it after the warning, thus undermining the Moderator's authority.

[Guest]

I dare say it's not fair.

but you can have it your way MJ . no problem from my part ; for the record i would like to state that the accusation of being racist on my part has no legs to stand.

[MJ]

Circassian,

 

This is not a contest of who would have the last word, right? Especially that not necessarily it is the last word which is remembered, but the most well argumented word.

 

Did you mean in your previous posting that the accusation of you being racist doesn't have legs? If yes, I am happy to have a confirmation of it.

 

You might've noticed that the number of people interested in the topic has increased, and I suspect it is going to increase further. This probably would imply increase of intensity of discussions and, unfortunately, emotions. If the norms are violated, it would obligate us to exercise the editorial hatchet more frequently, regardless of which side would force it. If the necessary ethics is not observed, the material would be edited, and the "Rule of Three Strike" would eventually be exercised.