Genocide Recognition in the Netherlands

[gamavor]

Well, if things are getting that bad, I would suggest a routine ID check and work permit check among the turks, and also expulsion of illegal immigrants. I would notify the police and special services for violation and intimidation of human rights. I would send letters to all International organizations dealing with human rights, so that they be aware of possible gang or terrorist attacks.

 

I can do much more harm than I can help, as you can see. Muah.

[elovna]

In our Law Public Demonstrations (Wet Openbare Demonstraties) which gives authority to local governments to set rules and regulations regarding the right to demonstrate, to be exact in paragraph 5.3, it says that a rule, limitation or prohibition cannot be related to the content of what is to be practiced or to the thoughts or feelings that are to be made public.

 

So my question to the City of Assen whether they would not have allowed a demonstration to take place if the Armenians would not have agreed to not use 'certain words' was totally unnecessary. They cannot prohibit a demonstration un such grounds. I think that I will have to write them again and ask them how the agreement on the 'inflammatory' stuff exactly was created.

[elovna]

What could the financial consequences be in such a case?

[gamavor]

Depends. I don't know exactly what are the legal fees , but when the subject is of no material interest (like in this case), it should be kind of fix rate something. You better consult with a local attorney.

It could be a pro-bono work for a student.

[gamavor]

Aghtchik,

 

One possible defense might be that "facts known to the court", do not need to be proven. Such facts are generally, facts that are well known to the larger public. For example such a fact is that the Planet Earth is round. So, in our case the court should simply inform the petitioner that Armenian Genocide is a fact. And the case is closed.

It would be a good practice for a student.

[15levels]

Elly jan, I apologize for calling Assen municipality "lame", my criticism in fact is not one sided, the medal has two sides, and I strongly believe that April 24 committee should have never agreed to those pre-conditions. Since the matter of the monument in Assen has started long time ago and the ball bounced many times back and forth without actually producing any result- we should look for other ways to push the issue forward. Posters project was suppose to do just that.

 

I think its needless to say that unless Armenian community develops a strategy/works united with all interested parties - there gonna be no progress. What is disappointing is the fact that we lack unity therefore we can do little. Since I am not an expert in legal affairs I cannot comment on any of the previous postings, but I strongly believe Armenians in Holland first have to settle the issues among themselves before going out in open to fight for the genocide recognition here in Holland.

[elovna]

I got an e-mail from mr. Werkman, head legal departement City of Assen. If anyone cares to translate it, be my guest. If not, I will do it tomorrow.

 

------------>

 

Geachte mevrouw ,

 

Ik heb uw mailverzoek in goede orde ontvangen.

U vraagt om relevante stukken om een zo compleet en correct mogelijk beeld te krijgen. Dhr. Romashuk, de initiatiefnemer voor de gedenksteen, is bij uitstek de man om u hierover te informeren. Hij is bij uitstek dé man die maximaal op de hoogte is van de Armeense kwestie.

Het is voor mij en mijn afdeling onmogelijk om aan uw verzoek te voldoen. De gemeente Assen heeft overigens geen uitspraak gedaan over de Armeense genocide. Wij hebben gemeend dat een dergelijke uitspraak zou moeten worden gedaan door de Rijksoverheid. Dat is ook de reden, dat door de burgemeester van Assen een petitie in ontvangst is genomen op 24 april jl. tijdens de demonstratie en deze petitie is doorgezonden naar het Kabinet en de Regering in Den Haag.

De demonstratie was door het 24-april comité gericht tegen de gemeente Assen en betrof met name het ontwijkend gedrag met betrekking tot de term "genocide". Het was om die reden dat ik het 24-april comité dan ook heb gevraagd om Turkije en de Turken dan ook niet te noemen in hun spandoeken. Daarmee heeft men ingestemd. Wanneer die instemming niet gegeven zou zijn, was er een andere situatie ontstaan. Ik kan niet beoordelen, wat ik gegeven die situatie had gedaan.

Overigens kan ik u meedelen, dat mijn contactpersoon van het 24-april comité mij heeft aangegeven, dat de Armeense gemeenschap in Nederland overweegt om in Den Haag een monument op te richten, zoals vergelijkbare monumenten in andere landen in de wereld staan. Een geschikte locatie had men al gevonden.

Concluderend:

1. ik zal een kopie van uw mail aan de heer Romashuk zenden met het verzoek om u te informeren over de Armeense kwestie. Ik ga er op voorhand vanuit, dat hij hiertegen geen bezwaar heeft.

2. wanneer u daarnaast behoefte hebt om in het gemeentelijk archief van Assen relevante stukken in te zien, kunt u een afspraak maken met mijn secretaresse, mw. Wilma Hulzebos, 0592 366 531.

 

Met vriendelijke groet,

 

H.D. Werkman

Hoofd Best. Jur. Zaken

[elovna]

The content of the above e-mail from mr. Werkman to me:

 

If I want to get a complete picture of what went on mr. Romashuk, the initiator of the monument in Assen, is the perfect man to tell me all about it.

 

It is impossible for mr. Werman's department to grant my request to send me all relevant documents.

 

"By the way, the City did not give a statement about the word 'genocide'. We feel it is up to the government (rijksoverheid) to do that. That is also the reason why the petition that the mayor received on april 24 was sent on to the cabinet and the government in The Hague."

 

"The Demonstration was aimed by the april 24 committy against the City of Assen and was about the 'evading attitude' regarding the term 'genocide'."

That is why he asked the april 24 committy to not mention Turky or Turks in their banners. If the committy would not have agreed to that it would have caused a different situation. He cannot judge what he would have done in that case.

 

He mentioned that a contactperson of the april 24 committy has let him know that the Armenian community in the Netherlands is considering to put up a monument in The Hague.

 

And:

1. He will send a copy of my e-mail to mr. Romashuk expecting that mr. Romashuk won't have any objections to inform me about the matter.

2. If I want to look into relevant documents in the Assen City Archive I can make an oppointment with his secretary.

----------

 

That's about it.

 

Then today mr. Romashuk called me on the phone and we agreed to arrange a meeting some time soon.

 

That is it for now.

[elovna]

It's Ok Rouben. Criticism is very OK and I don't want to limit your freedom of speach . I just didn't like the way you did it.

 

About the the disunity amongst Armenians... Is unity really needed to get the genocide recognized?

[15levels]

Well, I believe in this case, yes. As long as there are people who sabotage the efforts of others the impression we make on the others is less than impressive. For example, can we find one reason why there was NO consensus butween Armenian organizations in Holland on what should be done on April 24th? Yes demonstration, no demonstration, they bounced the ball back and forth, and it ended up with some people arriving later and to the wrong place. I also have inside information on some people who never wanted to have any sort of demonstration because they had their own plans for April 24. I won't name them. This is what disturbs me.

 

And to answer your question, Elly jan, I believe that if Armenians would manage to find few powerful friends among the Dutch politicians the Genocide will be recognized in no time. Simply because there is sold ground for the demand, and some Dutch (including the crown prince and his new wife) are very upset with Turkey. I am sure you know about the terrible case of murder and rape of 3 Dutch girls in Turkey which ended up with letting the killers go free. The crown prince canceled their trip to Turkey and I dont think they will be going there any time soon.

 

All we need is few influential friends who would not let this issue slide into oblivion, instead actively push for the parliament to discuss Armenian genocide again and again until a legal action is taken. No?

[hasmiek]

that is a very naive statement rouben; the crown prince and his wife probably are shocked by this mistake of letting one of the men free after 7 years. But this (hopefully) didn't lead to them disliking turkey as it was a mistake of the turkish courts.

 

Their 'not going their on a visit' was decided by the foreign minister to put pressure on the turkish government to put this killer back in prison. It was purely a symbolic act.

Personally I think the turkish courthouse decided to put him back in prison because it caused a lot of very bad publicity wich could keep tourists away...

 

you should not mix these things; this event has nothing to do with the armenian question and in no way influences the dutch politicians. which is a good thing, otherwise the whole reputation of a country could suddenly be depending on what one person does.

 

[ June 06, 2002, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: hasmiek ]

[15levels]

Hasmiek jan, perhaps its naive and certainly has nothing to do with the Armenian question, but it does indicate that there is a problem butween Netherlands and Turkey. And whatever problem Turkey has- its to our advantage, simply because there is a large misconception among dutch about Turkey and things like that help to put things in perspective. Of course the actions of one man should not define the policy of the state, but excuse me, when the judicial system sets free a man who raped and killed 3 foreign nationals (girls on vacation), then I believe a problem is larger than one man's actions. The problem is the same system which was exposed in "Midnight Express" by Alan Parker over 20 years ago. Apparently nothing have changed in Turkey since then and the Dutch public must know that.

 

On the other side I am not too fond of Dutch system either when you can get 3 years in prision for murder (and the prison conditions are in my opinion a little too comfortable for people who commit such crime).

 

The bottom line is (I guess), there is a crisis in Turkey/Netherlands relationship and Armenians can use that to their advantage. You may disagree, thats only my opinion.

 

ps. And speaking about reputation, I wouldnt like to be the Devil's advocate. I will be the first one to praise any positive change in Turkey but that hasnt happend for a century and with their current state of mind - wont happen for another long long time.

 

Regards,

 

[ June 06, 2002, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: Rouben Malayan ]

[hasmiek]

hi rouben jan,

I guess it is a matter of opinion then as I don't see this incident as a crisis between the netherlands and turkey, especially since turkey already put the man back in jail and turkey admitted that it was a mistake...

But you are right that the turkish government hasn't improved a lot in the last century, however i think i read something about them giving historians permission in insight on the history records concerning the 'armenian queastion' -well, i guess if that is true they had almost 90 years to change the records...

 

But anyway; if i look at the current kabinet formation, i wouldn't hope for too much. (sorry for the negative additude).It seems like the netherlands are turning in to a rightwinged ugly state with no respect for culture nor history. The politicians that might fight for the armenians are all in the opposition now, and it is way more difficult for them to be heard....

[elovna]

I totally agree.

 

It can also be an advantage to be in the opposition. From there you can make a lot of noise and you can definitely make yourself be heard. So I dont share your worries in this respect, Hasmiek.

[hasmiek]

that's very true; you can say a lot more in the oppossition; however -what i meant to say i guess - it's a lot more difficult to change things...

 

by the way; i think it's very admirable that you put your dedication in this rouben and elly/Aghtchik

[elovna]

I have the same kind of information Rouben. But does it matter? Armenians may differ in ideas and opions and there may be envy between them. It won't show them as one united people. But at least they all will want the genocide to be recognized, won't they? Does it matter how many different signals will reach the Dutch government? I would say: who cares where the signals are coming from as long as they are there and of 'good' nature.

 

I wish, yes, but I don't know if it can be as simple and quick as that. I am thinking of what the consequences of recognition would be in a broader perspective. That could be a tiny little problem that goes beyond Dutch territory. Does anyone care to give us some expertise on that?

 

Apart from that I think it may be a good thing to set up a standard text to send to members of the Dutch parliament. Imagine that they would get thousands of letters from all over the world...

We can all write the text together, here on the Forum. How about that?

 

[ June 07, 2002, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Aghtchik ]

[elovna]

I have e-mailed this page to the parliament fractions of SP (Sociallistic Party) and GroenLinks (GreenLeft):

 

groenlinks@tk.parlement.nl

spfractie@tk.parlement.nl

[gamavor]

Somewhere in late 17 century, Dutch burgers from the Northern parts of today Netherlands were battling with water. Hydro - engineering was very primitive that days and people were building digs in order to get some more lands from the sea. The process of draining the drenches and cultivating the obtained soil was the easiest part of their efforts. The real disaster was when these digs were broke. Very soon they realized that it is impossible for the individual owners to effectively fight with floods and rebuild the digs and that they will need collective effort to that end. Central powers were too disinterested of regulating this matter, so instead municipal authorities issued special ordinances obliging the individual burgers to offer immediate help to anyone whose dig is damaged. If he/she fails to do so his original title deed was declared null and void.

 

All of these happened long before the infamous Duma’s exclamation: “All for one, and one for all”!

 

Note that D’ArtanIAN being non-Armenian is not scientifically proven.

[elovna]

[elovna]

Reply SP

 

After sending the URL of this forum topic to the groups in the Dutch parliament of SP (Sociallistic Party) and GroenLinks (GreenLeft) yesterday, I got reply from the SP today...

 

Dutch:

 

Geachte

 

Dank voor uw tip over de discussiewebsite. De SP is geïnteresseerd in de

omstandigheden en geschiedenis van het Midden-Oosten en het Kaukasisch

gebied. We zijn ons bewust van de brandende actualiteit van de geschiedenis.

De Armeense kwestie uit 1915 is er daar een van. We denken dat de Armeense

kwestie een van de structurele problemen is van de Republiek Turkije.

 

Maar dat neemt niet weg dat ook recentere ellende, zoals de oorlog om

Nagorno Karabach nieuwe problemen heeft voortgebracht tussen Armeniers,

Turken en Azeris. Een open maar voorzichtige koers ten opzichtige van de

geschiedenis en de actualiteit van de mensenrechten, is volgens de SP dan

ook gewenst.

De SP staat open voor aanvullende informatie.

 

Met vriendelijke groet,

 

Guido van Leemput

Sp fractiemedewerker

 

English:

 

Respected ,

 

Thanks for pointing out the discussion website to us. The SP is interested in the circumstances of the Middle-East and the Caucasion area. We are aware of the burning actuality of the history. De Armenian Question from 1915 is one of them. We think that the Armenian question is one of the structural problems of the Turkish Republic.

 

But that doesn't take away that also more recent misery, such as the war over Nagorno Karabach, created new problems between Armenians, Turks and Azeris. An open but careful course regarding the history and the actuality of the human rights, according to the SP is therefor desired.

The SP is open for additional information.

 

With friendly greetings,

 

Guido van Leemput

Sp Group co-worker.

 

E-mail address !!

 

G.vLeemput@tk.parlement.nl

[elovna]

My next e-mail to the SP...

 

Dutch

 

Beste SP-medewerker,

 

Mijn dank voor uw snelle reactie.

 

Zoals u waarschijnlijk weet is het Armeense volk door de op zijn zachtst gezegd 'ongelukkige' gebeurtenissen uit het verleden over de wereld verspreid. De genocide die rond 1915 door het Ottomaanse Rijk op het Armeense volk is gepleegd heeft een enorme stempel gedrukt op de overlevenden en de nakomelingen van de slachtoffers waarvan het overgrote merendeel nu in de Armeense diaspora woont. Kunt u zich voorstellen hoe het is om in het land waar je je toevlucht zocht niet het 'recht' te hebben om op passende wijze je voorouders te herdenken?... hoe het is om te moeten vechten om een monument te mogen plaatsen en te mogen voorzien van een inscriptie volgens de waarheid?.... hoe het is om 'vriendelijk' verzocht te worden om deze waarheid achterwege te laten omdat dit niet bevordelijk zou zijn voor de 'goede' verstandhouding van Nederland met Turkije?

 

Een Armeen wordt zo ongeveer met een trauma geboren en ontkenning van de verschrikkelijk holocaust maakt het onmogelijk het leed te verwerken. Dat deze mensen nu, bijna 'n eeuw later in een land als Nederland de waarheid niet openlijk mogen uitspreken vind ik, over humanitair gesproken, onmenselijk en ik schaam me er als Nederlander voor dat zoiets vandaag de dag hier gebeurt.

 

U weet natuurlijk dat ik het heb over het Armeense monument in Assen dat ondertussen na veel strubbelingen dan toch is opgericht ter jaarlijkse herdenking op 24 april van de Armeense slachtoffers van de genocide van 1910-1915 in het Ottomaanse Rijk. De overheid heeft het wel slim bekeken moet ik zeggen voor wat betreft artikel 7 van de Grondwet. Hetzelfde geldt voor Openbare Wet Manifestaties in verband met de demonstratie die in Assen georganiseerd was voor 24 april jongstleden.

De gemeente Assen, waarschijnlijk onder druk van de regering, heeft de Armenen destijds nadrukkelijk 'verzocht' om in de inscriptie van het monument het woord "genocide" te vermijden en nu onlangs weer om tijdens de demonstratie (op 24 april 2002) op de spandoeken verwijzingen naar "Turken" of "Turkije" achterwege te laten. De Armenen waren zo netjes om hiermee akkoord te gaan. En nadat tijdens de demonstratie toch een aantal 'niet afgesproken' woorden op de spandoeken verschenen en deze op verzoek van de politie verwijderd moesten worden, kon de gemeente zich mooi beroepen op 'niet nagekomen afspraken'. En terecht natuurlijk. Maar als dit onze 'vrijheid van meningsuiting' voor moet stellen, dan vind ik dat we wel in kunnen pakken met onze zogenaamde 'vrijheid en democratie'.

 

De Armeense kwestie is een delicate zaak, ja. Maar zoals de Turkse historicus Taner Akcam zegt: "Turkije kan nooit een democratie worden als het niet in het reine komt met de geschiedenis. Wij moeten het geweld onder ogen zien. De Turken van vandaag zijn niet schuldig, maar wij dragen een verantwoordelijkheid.", wil ik daar in dit verband aan toevoegen: "Waar blijven wij met onze mooie woorden als wij ons zo laten intimideren?"

 

Wordt het niet tijd dat Nederland een officieel standpunt in gaat nemen ten aanzien van de gebeurtenissen in het Ottomaanse rijk rond 1910-1915 zodat de Armenen in Nederland recht krijgen op hun verdriet en de verwerking daarvan?

 

Dit verdrietige 'onderwerp' houdt de ongeveer 5000 Armenen die in Nederland wonen dagelijks bezig. Dat er zich in ons land zo ongeveer 387.000 Turken kwaad over maken mag toch geen reden zijn om 'de kwestie' maar in de doofpot te blijven stoppen.

 

Wij bieden in Nederland bescherming aan Koerden die in deze tijd zo ongeveer hetzelfde meemaken als de Armenen in hetzelfde gebied 90 jaar geleden. Zwijgen en wachten heeft geen zin. Hitler zei, voordat hij met de uitroeing van het Joodse volk begon: "After all, who remembers the Armenians." Tja....

 

Het zal u duidelijk zijn dat ik vind dat deze kwestie dringend aandacht verdient en 'besproken' moet worden, in het parlement, de media, etcetera. En aan de SP het verzoek om hiermee te beginnen.

 

With friendly greetings,

.

[elovna]

My next e-mail to the SP....

 

English

 

Dear SP co-worker,

 

Thanks for your quick reply.

 

As you probably know the Armenian people, due to the, most mildly put, 'unfortunate' circumstances of the past, were spread all over the world. De genocide that took place on the Armenian people around the years 1910-1915 by the Ottoman empire has put an enormous stamp on the lives of the survivors and the victims children, of whom the greater part now lives in the Armenian diaspora. Can you imagine how it is like to, in a country where you sought shelter, not have the right to commemorate your ancestors in a suitable way?... how it is like to have to fight for being allowed to place a monument with a truthful inscription?... how it is like to be 'friendly requested' to not tell the truth because it may harm the 'good' relation of The Netherlands with Turky?

 

An Armenian is practically born with a trauma and denial of the terrible holocaust makes it impossible to get over the pain. That these people now, almost a century later, in a country like The Netherlands cannot publically speak the truth, talking about humanity, I find inhumane and as a Dutch person I feel ashamed that today something like this is happening here.

 

Of course you know that I am talking about the Armenian monument in Assent that in the meanwhile, after a lot of trouble, finally was erected for the purpose of yearly commemoration on april 24 of the Armenian victims of the genocide of 1910-1915 in the Ottoman empire. The government was smart I must say regarding article 7 of the Constitution. The same goes for the Law Public Manifestations regarding the demonstration that was organised to be held in Assen on april 24.

The City of Assen, probably under pressure of the government, back then 'requested' to the Armenians to not use the word "genocide" in the inscription and now recently again to not use the words "Turks" or "Turkey" on any of the banners during the demonstration. The Armenians were nice enough to agree to this request. And after some "unagreed" words did pop up, that needed to be taken down in request of the police, the City could just nicely refer to 'agreements' that were not lived by. And rightfully, of course. But if this is what our 'freedom of speech' means I think we can go and pack our bags. ( )

 

The Armenian question is a delicate matter, yes. But, as the Turkish historian Taner Akcam says: "Turkey can never become a democracy if it does not clear it's history. We have to face the violence. The Turks of today are not guilty, but we carry a responsability.", in this context I want to add:"Where are we with our wonderful words, if we let us be intimidated this way?"

 

Isn't it about time for The Netherlands to take an official stand regarding the events in the Ottoman empire around 1910-1915, so that the Armenians will get the right to grieve and deal with it?

 

This sad subject is on the minds of the approximate 5000 Armenians in The Netherlands on a daily basis. The fact that about 387.000 Turks are getting mad over it should not be reason to keep on hiding the subject.

 

In the Netherlands we give shelter to Kurds who today are experiencing about the same as the Armenians in the same area 90 years ago. There is no point in being silent and waiting. Hitler, before he started to exterminate the Jewish people, said: "After all, who remembers the Armenians." .....

 

It will be clear to you that I feel that this matter urgently needs to be discussed, in the parliament, the media, etcetera. And to the SP the request to start with it.

 

With friendly greetings,

.

 

[ June 07, 2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Aghtchik ]

[elovna]

SP's next reply...

 

Dutch

 

Beste ,

 

U beider boodschappen zijn goed doorgekomen en goed begrepen. Ik ken (het werk van) Taner Aksam (een beetje) en deel zijn analyse. Voor de SP geldt dat we een gunstig moment moeten afwachten om op een verstandige manier de hele problematiek van de Turkse geschiedenis op een praktische op de

toekomstgerichte manier aan te kaarten.

 

Met vriendelijke groeten

 

Guido van Leemput

 

English

 

Dear ,

 

Both your messages came through ok and were understood well. I know (the work of) Taner Akcam (a little) and share his analysis. For the SP goes that we have to wait for a favourable moment to bring up the whole problem of the Turkish history in a practical way that is aiming to the future.

 

With friendly greetings,

Guido van Leemput.

 

[ June 07, 2002, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Aghtchik ]

[elovna]

http://members.brabant.chello.nl/~e.martens2/pics/1953.jpg

 

http://members.brabant.chello.nl/~e.martens2/pics/all41_14all.jpg

 

[ June 07, 2002, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: Aghtchik ]

[15levels]

Thank you Elly, for such persistant and thoughtful effort. You are a true friend to us. Kezzes, AghtchiK! I wish I could be more of a help, but you know my fragile position. I do what I can in this situation. Best of all to you and the family. RM