elovna

Mosjan, I have no personal messages from you that mention anything about my signature and I have kept all my messages since I joined the forum over a year ago. I have 3 pms from you, so it wasn't difficult to check. I would surely remember having received such a note. So either you are mistaken or ... I dont know what happened… you tell me, but I hope you are not making this up to make me look bad. But even if I would have overlooked such a message, there are still ways, like right in the middle of a thread, to get my attention and say: "b.t.w. Elly, didn't you receive my personal message?" I know that is not according to the CODE OF CONDUCT to exchange personal messages/remarks in a public thread but since even moderators do it frequently I don’t see why in this case it suddenly should not be one of the options. But what about my signature, Mosjan? Your comments came as a total surprise to me now. It never even crossed my mind that I am in violation with the forum rules by linking to a non-profit website (that of all things is set up to serve the purpose of getting the Armenian Genocide recognized), which as you know in my country The Netherlands is becoming a nasty issue. Did I (2.) Post advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or solicitations? Don’t get me wrong… I don’t feel that - because I am trying to do everything I can to help make justice be done in this Dutch-Turkish-Armenian Question - I have the right to go past the forum rules. But that this of all things now also suddenly becomes a problem…. shame on you! To me it seems that not only the Turks live in denial. The Armenians do a pretty good job themselves if you ask me. The fact that your “KEEP IN MIND” says that moderators have the right to edit postings at any moment does not prove that in this particular case it is justifiable to actually go and do it any way you please, does it? I am not ignoring anything, including your “KEEP IN MIND”. But let me say it one more time, I did not violate any rules! No matter how you twist things around. So what are you suggesting?… That I did not mention the “keep in mind” part to hide something? My way of “playing around with words”? Oh my. Why would I hide something that is public knowledge. That is what YOU are doing. It is exactly what all of this is about!! Also your tone of commenting about my supposed way of 'playing around with words' is totally unnecessary, especially when you have asked me to calm down, and apart from that it is bullshit (excuse my lang!), the only thing you may be proving by saying it is your own paranoia. Also, if you really want me to calm down you should really consider changing your way of handling matters like this. Psychologically it is not very smart to tell a person to calm down and to provoke him at the same time because you are not calm yourself. Your tone, from the very start, is not very nice, in case you did not realize it. All of this, Mosjan, you should give some attention for the sake of being able to function well as a moderator, the policeman or judge on this forum. Nairi jan, I appreciate your efforts to keep the peace. But I don’t agree with everything you say. The freedom of speech may be ‘seen’ different in different cultures, I won’t argue with that. But don’t you think it’s a little twisted, the fact that one moment on this very forum the right to freedom of speech in the Netherlands is being put on a stand, as if freedom of speech is/should be a universal thing (also my opinion) and then the next moment because of a certain simple word that makes some people uncomfortable because they are too hypocrite to dare to face their own ‘(un)clean’ minds, it is suddenly a different thing in a different culture? Sorry that I am getting at least a little confused here. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech when in certain cultures the ruling majority is allowed to insult and discriminate for example homosexuals. In the days of Stalin there was also a freedom of speech: the Stalinist one. Same thing with the Nazi one, etc. Do you really consider that "freedom of speech" in the true sense of the word? Well, however you look at it, I will stick to my universal version. According to my definition (a universal) freedom of speech is not based on restrictions invented by certain people for the purpose of keeping themselves in the saddle, it is based on equal rights and respect regardless of their religion, color, ideas, etc. and that is a totally different starting point. Unfortunately this IS a nasty experience and therefore it will end up in my list. That’s how things generally work. But that doesn’t mean I will close my heart for all Armenians. It means that I will be more careful with them in the future, because I am not a masochist. I don’t take these things personally, but it hurts nevertheless. Harut jan. “first, i do not see any hypocrasy in MosJan's action.” It is your right and up to you to not see it Harut, it’s fine by me. “it's one thing to talk or act the way to want in the surroundings of your close ones, and another thing to bring them to public forums. i may be using such words and may enjoy (as you mentioned) such actions to be performed for me, but that does not necessarily or automatically give me the right to talk about it in public, especially in a forum like ours, HyeForum, where ethics tend to be more restrictive (conservative, if you please). So what are you saying? Sex is something to DO, but not something to talk about on a discussion Forum? Where can I find such restrictions in this forums code of conduct? Can you show me? Did I post any of this: vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, invasive of a person’s privacy, threatening, inaccurate, defamatory, false, insulting, or abusive material? Just say it if you really think I am guilty of having posted any of the above type of material prior to Mosjan’s editing of my post. Just tell me in public here now that what you and most men love to enjoy in private so much, it is too vulgar and obscene to be reminded of in public in 1 single simple word in a context written for the purpose of pointing out hypocrisy. Just say so, so that in future everyone will know that it is allowed to talk of “flies attracted to shit” to insult or hurt each other, but do not even mention any BJ’s in this place because then all of a sudden the ethics of the Forum are endangered. I cannot force anyone to see the ridiculety and hypocrisy in all of this. I can only hope that it won’t stay unnoticed. Excuse me Harut. We are not children here, are we? And even though for me it doesn’t make any difference where it happened, it WAS after all the love & romance section, where I used the word. To bring in an argument like “ we have under aged members to consider”, pffff, I don’t think I need to comment on that, do I. “yes, i believe that ethics have been established in this forum. and fortunately or unfortunately, that is up to the person, they contain conservativeness.” The ethics shown by the “CODE OF CONDUCT” of this forum are not conservative at all in my opinion, to me they seem very universal, but they can be interpreted either this or that way, depending on which moderator is guarding these ethics, what mood he or she is in, etc. It may even depend on whether his or her sexual needs were satisfied last night or not. “second, about your post being edited, as i mentioned above, MosJan has only exercised his rights. no need to be upset. under the code of condact of HyeForum, moderators have the right to edit and even delete posts in place of need.” I assume that the rights of moderators were not invented to accommodate the moderators. That is turning things upside down in my opinion. If there are ethics to be defended, let them do just that, but let them do it right and just. As for having been upset, let me be my own judge of that. Apparently I had reason to, otherwise I would have reacted differently, would I not. I notice that some of you find yourselves in dubio over this matter. I am sorry to have brought you in this nasty position by being a little too open for your tastes. I understand very well what the problem is, and it is not me. “if you thought that it is not correct to edit your post without keeping you informed privately, then you could have contacted MosJan privately yourself and experessed your complaint.” You have totally misunderstood me, Harut. I think it should be very clear by now that I am for openness and therefore I don’t care at all about being informed about this matter publicly. But I was not informed at all. I was “confronted” in a very unpleasant way with the so called ‘ethics’ of this forum, namely by Mosjan breaking in to my post to erase the word I chose to write to make my point and only after that he pointed his finger at me. Again: I do not mind at all that this was done publicly, on the contrary. But since, in my opinion, I have always shown myself as a reasonable person on this Forum I think that Mosjan’s way of taking care of his’ and those 3 members’ problem was totally unnecessary. The fact that the Forum rules give him the right to do it, does not necessarily mean that it IS ‘right’ to do it… RIGHT? “there was no need to make it public and make inconvenience for members and moderators equally.” Mosjan did publicly censor me, did he not? So he can expect me to react publicly. To all of you. This will be my very last word in this matter and on this Forum. I have thought well about what to say and I think I said it well. You can ignore it, condemn it, agree with it… whatever you like. Some of you may be pleased to get rid of me, others my miss me, either way… I will not stay. I wish every single one of you good luck. P.S. Sorry for posting once more, for the last time now, advertising material in my signature.

Why not, Sip, we already have "orgasm on the beach" and such. [ August 05, 2002, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Aghtchik ]

If anyone cares to get in touch with me, my e-mail address is aghtchik@hotmail.com

quote:Originally posted by MosJan:if any of our Armenians will use the Armenian word for this - I will get 200 emails asking me to ban him/her yes we do have a word for it in Armenia - and it's nothing nice - to say it front of your kids. Ask your EX he might teal you… it’s used to describe prostitutes. Can this be a nice word ? no way No this is not USSR -nor it's Soviet Armenian, this is our Little Armenia this is our OJAKH, ( ask your Ex to Explain what OJAKH is for us Armenians) and we expect everyone to keep it clean!! just like I have asked you >Aghchigjan lets jkeep it clean!! < non of this is an insult to you - do you see anything insulting in this words ? if you pay attention you can see that I did not say anything concerning your post have I ?– I have respected your opinion, now teak a cold shower and wan you calm dawn explain to me way cant we keep this place clean… I have edited you post – yes I have – and I edit many posts – just pay attention!!! Some members understand some don’t. will sorry to se that you don’t And one more time – all of our guest and members are welcomed in HyeForum – help your self use it us you like – just remember to keep to clean. I understand very well what's going on here Mosjan and I sincerely regret that it is happening. But you are right. This is your Ojakh. I am only a guest here. Sorry for thinking and acting as a member and as a human being. As for for the cleanness of this place, next time it gets dirty, remember me. Ok. I am off. Good luck to you all.

Thanks for speaking up people, not for me but for principle's sake. I am not mad at Mosjan personally. I may have said some things in my anger that show otherwise, but actually I am not mad at all anymore. I just think this whole issue is plain stupid, rediculous even. About the Forum rules.... I don't feel that I have violated the rules on this forum, not until AFTER Mosjan messed with my posting. For every insulting word I have said AFTER it, I apologize. I can point out many recent postings where intelligent and respected members are throwing dirt at each other in anger, just because they don't agree, or because they don't like the other person. Apparently that is considered 'civilized' here and it does not violate the rules: ****** DO NOT 1. Post vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, invasive of a person’s privacy, threatening, inaccurate, defamatory, false, insulting, or abusive material. 2. Post advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or solicitations 3. Include personal communication in your posts or otherwise digress from the original topic. DO 1. Post relevant, useful, informative, intelligent, well thought-out, constructively critical, well meaning, educational, coherent material. 2. Post arguments that are well mannered, balanced, logical and otherwise appropriate in nature. 3. Keep your emotions in check. ****** I did not do any of what is under "Do Not". I did what is under "Do". This is a principle matter. If the use of one single word the way I used it, in a context as I have put it in, with NO intentions what so ever to shock, to insult or to be obscene, can 'rightfully' be censored.... than I really can't take this Forum serious as a free place to discuss and share opinions, sorry. The fact that 3 members have complained does not justify Mosjan's decission to censor what I wrote. He is a moderator and should be capable of acting like a judge here, more or less, it's his job. I don't care who or how many complained, it proves nothing. What happened here is rediculous and injust. The whole thing actually proves the very point I was making in that very sentence where I used the word BJ. And Mosjan doesn't even seem to realize it. THAT is why I think he is not capable of deciding when he has to act and interfear and how, regardless of how good or bad Mosjans intentions are. I am sure they are the very best, AS my own. Now anyone can make a mistake, even a moderator (but not too many) and there is always time to set things straight, so I am waiting for that to happen and it has nothing to do with stubbornnes. I don't have any problems with admitting my mistakes myself. I have done so already. But I won't admit to one that I did not commit, the supposed one that started this whole commotion. And I still feel that apologies are in order here, by Mosjan. No one else should feel obliged to apologize FOR him (although I do appreciate the attempts made by some, since it shows me that I am not entirely alone here with my 'alien' reasoning).

Nairi. Mosjan has power on this forum and he's not using it right. If this was about use of language... but it's not. It's about abusing power and about hypocricy. On a forum where freedom of speech is so important, being a serious point of discussion even sometimes (so I assume it is of interest to the readers), for such a forum it is so terribly important that people ARE free to speak. I know that there are certain rules, of course I know!! Did I not respect those rules always? Why does Mosjan have to treat me as someone unreasonable and abuse his power to censor me without even speaking to me about it beforehand? Now who is insulting who here I ask you? Don't take this personally now Nairi. I have to address this to someone. I am taking this matter very seriously. And about contributing to this forum... This forum is a farce if it is run by moderators like mosjan. I did nothing wrong. I insulted no one, I did not curse, I did not talk dirty or vulgar, I merely spoke the truth and I feel that an apology is in order and I am not the one who has to apologize.

I apologize for my cursing, but NOT for using the the word B.L.O.W.J.O.B.

Oeps. I had totally forgotten that word. It's my luck that you dare to say it outloud Hararag. I still don't see what's so bad about calling it a b*l*o*w*j*o*b though. I think I will stick to it. "Fellatio" - it feels a little strange coming from my mouth, as if it doesn't suite me. Let's just say I am vulgar. I can live with that.

Toth. I know that Mosjan is trying his best. But so are we all in our own way. Mosjan isn't the right person to handle this type of issues in my opinion. I don't feel that I am overreacting. What Mosjan did, equals opening someones mail and even changing the content. That is very serious. I think I am entitled to become at least a little angry so not furious. My trust in this forum is serioulsy damaged. And as long as Mosjan doesn't show that he understands what he's doing wrong, I don't think that I will regain that trust. We were actually discussing things as hypocracy, oppennes, narrowmindedness. So it's ironical that something like this happens in this very thread. Thanks for your support Nairi and yours also Toth. It is good know know at least two people with a healthy mind and a heart for justice and fairness. I have also been wondering where the line is drawn here. Masturbation.... eeeek!!!!! Were you allowed to say it? As I found out today "****" (that is: p*o*r*n ) is a dirty word too. By the way, what are the synonimes for "b*l*o*w*j*o*b"? I really can't think of one. [ August 04, 2002, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Aghtchik ]

quote:Originally posted by MosJan:This is not the first time and I know it will not be the last time - wan I will ask a member or members to keep it clean. Upon the request of 3 of our members I have edit your post - Aghchig – do you use this in word front of your family ? most likely not What you do in your privet life, it’s up to you. Your not the only one in this forum , not all of our members are adults and we do have underage kids. wan you get some free time in your hands edit your post your self – since I will not spend any of my time editing any of it – I rather spend the time with my family. Movses 1. You did not ask me to keep things 'clean' Mosjan. You went and changed my posting without even talking to me about it first. How stupid can one be? Was there any reason to think that you cannot talk to me about a problem? Does it have to be like this here on this Forum? If 3 members have asked you to censor my posting because they do not like it, apart from whether they have reason not, I think it would have been the correct way if you would have come to me with it to tell me, instead of BREAKING in to what I chose to write. 2. Indeed this is not the first time that something like this occurs and I very well know what you are capable of. I remember the case of Thorny Rose who was expelled from this Forum because she did not do as you wanted her to. And she was a valueable member of this Forum for a long time, EVEN if she used the word F-U-C-K in the heat of the moment. It was your reaction then also that made things escalate and increase her anger. Instead of making things better, you made things worse. 3. Yes, I could use these words in front of my family without any problems, if I feel I have to to make something clear. I have a 16 year old son and a 13 year old daughter. They know where the babies come from, because I told them a long time ago. Furthermore I don't think that 'children' who are interested by the content of this forum and capable of understanding the postings, will have a problem with a word like BLOWJOB (B*L*O*W*J*O*. You make it sound as if this is sesamy street here. And you (re)act as if I took my cloths of in front of all of you or even showed you how a blowjob goes. FOR GODS SAKE, I TYPED A WORD... A GOD DAMNED SINGLE WORD. You are pathetic. I pity you. Kick me of the forum if you like. You are really making my blood cook now. Now let me see who agrees with Mosjan. Let me see who cares about justice here, who is hypocrite or not. About those 3 members. I congratulate you with your courage.

quote:Originally posted by nairi: quote:Originally posted by Aghtchik:You can say it did the Armenians no harm sofar and you may be right. But what about other people? What if they are effected by it in a not so nice way. Doesn't that count for anything? Oh of course it does. I never said I agreed with their ways. I also didn't want to generalize. I guess I took the most conservatives out as an example. The most liberal Armenians will say that whatever belongs in the bedroom belongs there. Talking about sex in public is considered vulgar, just like swearing. Do I agree with this? Sometimes. I guess I would consider it more polite in certain situations, even among Dutchies, to not use such references unless it is of vital importance. Elsewhere I might be looser and more careless. Here, I didn't feel the need. But you are compelling me. I watched Flodder again two weeks ago on BRT. "Buurman, wat doet u nu?" and "Hey, blijf van je zus af!". Maybe you should introduce "Turks Fruit" on this forum, as an educational first step to conquering hypocrisy and conservatism. You know we haven't had a sexual revolution yet, don't you? Nairi I also don't like vulgar talks or cursing. But as far as the B-L-O-W-J-O-B is concerned there isn't any other word as far as I know. The Dutch one is of no use here and that one is really awful. And to refer to it by saying "certain sexual actions". Well, by doing that I would almost admit that there is something wrong with saying it outloud, which would go against my believes. So I think for me it was necessary to use the actual word. And the English one isn't so bad. I mentioned it to give an example of why I think this 'virginity' stuff is hypocrite. But this is not about sex, cursings, vulgarity, insults or disrespect. It's about openness, or the lack of it, about hypocricy which per definition is not a positive thing. It may have worked as a defence mechanism and it may have served the preservation of the Armenian values, but only on the surface. Times have changed. What good does it do, really, to live a perfect life on the outside while inside everything may be dirty or rotten? Wouldn't it be better to just be straightforward and have the courage to face the truth, always? I mean, isn't this something to aim for, something that would add positively to mankind and it's future? I would call that true "liberation". [ August 04, 2002, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Aghtchik ]

quote:Originally posted by MJ: quote:Originally posted by Aghtchik: Sorry, sometimes I am a bit naive still. See, even though you are Duthch and some of us are Soviet Armenians, we still share common features - naivity in this case. I think that naivity and hypocricy are 2 different things, MJ. Being naive means being plain stupid in a very innocent way, harmless, while hypocracy is being stupid intentionally, not harmless at all. I'd rather be naive now and then.

Oh, I just found out that the word P-O-R-N is also forbidden here.

quote:Originally posted by MJ: quote:Originally posted by Aghtchik:MJ. Are you saying that you are not familiar with a thing called blowjob? What's that, Elly? In Soviet Armenia, we don't know such words and we don't do such things - whatever it may mean. I don't want to give you guys the pleasure of explaining it to you in detail and then be killed for it later. Also, I have no intention of turning this Forum into a **** site.

quote:Originally posted by nairi:Elly jan, having grown up in a country where speaking about sex is the normal matter of the day, I totally understand where you're coming from and from that perspective I fully agree that your original posts should be added again. On the other hand... welcome to the Armenian way. You may or may not believe it, but there ARE plenty of Armenian men who find blow-jobs disgusting and speaking of sex even worse. In our culture, you do it. You don't talk about it, especially as a woman. Very unfortunate in many ways, especially when problems arise, but this is an ancient culture. So far keeping sex a taboo and "mysterious" hasn't caused us major harm. So why should we openly talk about it now? From this perspective, I totally understand Mosjan; although I must add that I don't fancy censorship and on ground of that alone, I would ask Mosjan to add the posts again. Thanks, Nairi, for defending the freedom of speech. Good of you to not mention the forbidden word. You know, the one I don't dare to say outloud: "blowjob", but sst, you didn't hear me say that. Let's not shock the men that don't dare to be reminded of the fact that a blowjob is something they wouldn't mind at least one time a day to keep the doctor away. Now, without joking. I understand too well the Armenian way (at least as far as an outsider can understand it). What is happening now is nothing compared to what I experienced during my relationship with my Armenian ex. I don't pretend to have the right to judge it. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone... fine by me. I myself I don't like all that hypocracy and I try to not practice it. You can say it did the Armenians no harm sofar and you may be right. But what about other people? What if they are effected by it in a not so nice way. Doesn't that count for anything?