Fireworks over Georgia

[MosJan]

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Russia had no choice but counterattack in S.Ossetia - Gorbachev

18:27 | 13/ 08/ 2008 http://img.rian.ru/i/b_print.gif MOSCOW, August 13 (RIA Novosti) - Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev said Russia had no choice but to launch a counterattack to Georgia's offensive in breakaway South Ossetia, but it is still possible to find a political solution to the crisis.

 

"What happened on the night of August 7 is beyond comprehension," Gorbachev said in an article The Guardian published on Wednesday. "The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas."

 

"Russia had to respond. To accuse it of aggression against 'small, defenseless Georgia' is not just hypocritical but shows a lack of humanity," he said in the article.

 

"Nevertheless, it was still possible to find a political solution. Clearly, the only way to solve the South Ossetian problem on that basis is through peaceful means. The Georgian leadership flouted this key principle," Gorbachev, a Nobel Peace Prize laureate, said.

 

Gorbachev told the paper that the Georgian authorities could only undertake the offensive "with the perceived support" of a much more powerful force - an apparent reference to the United States, which has trained Georgian troops and backed the country's bid to join NATO.

 

Now that the military assault has been routed, Gorbachev said, "the Georgian government and its supporters should rethink their position."

 

Gorbachev said some Western nations' positions prevented the UN Security Council from acting effectively at the start of the conflict. He also said that by declaring the Caucasus region that is thousands of miles from the American continent a sphere of its "national interest," the U.S. made a serious blunder.

 

"Of course, peace in the Caucasus is in everyone's interest. But it is simply common sense to recognize that Russia is rooted there by common geography and centuries of history. Russia is not seeking territorial expansion, but it has legitimate interests in this region," The Guardian reported him as saying.

 

Gorbachev said the international community should in the long term seek to create a sub-regional security system to make the possibility of crises impossible, which requires cooperation with regional countries and fair and unbiased stances of nations outside the region.

 

"A lesson from recent events is that geopolitical games are dangerous anywhere, not just in the Caucasus," he said.

 

"Already, thousands of people have died, tens of thousands have been turned into refugees, and towns and villages lie in ruins. Nothing can justify this loss of life and destruction. It is a warning to all," Gorbachev said.

Georgia and Russia agreed on Tuesday to a modified version of a French-brokered interim peace plan, which requires an immediate ceasefire and the pullback of forces to their previous positions. The European Union approved the plan on Wednesday.

 

Georgia's territorial integrity and the return of refugees would be the focus of the next stage of talks, French President Nicolas Sarkozy earlier said.

 

However, Russia's military said Tuesday that Georgia is failing to completely abide by the ceasefire and sniper attacks are continuing, and Russian peacekeepers have to respond to provocative attacks.

 

Georgia also reported the continued movement of Russian troops inside its territory. Russia denied the reports.

[MosJan]

 

Russia

Moscow says some 70 Russian soldiers killed in S.Ossetia

17:20 | 13/ 08/ 2008

 

Print version

 

MOSCOW, August 13 (RIA Novosti) - A top Russian military official said on Wednesday that 74 Russian military personnel died during recent fighting with Georgian troops in breakaway South Ossetia.

 

"At least 74 servicemen were killed, 171 were wounded and 19 are missing in action as of Wednesday morning," said Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of the General Staff.

 

Wednesday was declared a day of mourning in Russia.

 

Russian officials earlier said about 1,600 civilians were killed and more than 30,000 have fled South Ossetia since Georgia attempted to regain control of the region by launching a large-scale offensive last Friday.

 

During the subsequent Russian military operation to force Georgian troops out of the de facto independent republic and to reinforce its peacekeepers, Moscow sent some 10,000 troops and several hundred armored vehicles into the area.

 

Nogovitsyn said figures for Georgian losses were currently unavailable.

 

Georgia's National Security Council said on Wednesday the country has started talks with Russia on the exchange of military personnel captured during the conflict. The total number of prisoners taken by both sides has not been yet reported.

 

Nogovitsyn said Russia has made its own proposals on the exchange of prisoners and bodies and was waiting for Georgia's reply.

 

Georgia and Russia agreed on Tuesday to a modified version of a French-brokered six-point peace plan, which requires an immediate ceasefire and the pullback of forces to their previous positions.

 

French President Nicolas Sarkozy said the peace plan would be discussed by EU foreign ministers in Brussels on Wednesday, and that a legally binding agreement should then be signed. Georgia's territorial integrity and the return of refugees would be the focus of the next stage of talks.

 

However, Nogovitsyn said Georgia is failing to completely abide by a ceasefire in South Ossetia and Russian peacekeepers have to respond to provocative attacks.

 

"Sporadic sniper attacks are continuing, and although the Russian side is supposed to remain within the boundaries of peacekeeping activity, we must respond to such provocations, as was unambiguously announced by the commander-in-chief," Nogovitsyn said.

 

Georgia has also reported the continued movement of Russian troops inside its territory. Russia has denied that its troops are moving from the city of Gori in the direction of the Georgian capital.

 

Russia has meanwhile sent over 1,700 rescue workers and hundreds of medical personal to the devastated South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, the emergencies minister said on Wednesday. Two field hospitals have been set up in the city, and rubble is being cleared and sanitary measures taken to prevent a pandemic.

[MosJan]

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World

 

 

 

 

Russian troops down Georgian drone over S. Ossetia

19:46 | 13/ 08/ 2008 http://img.rian.ru/i/b_print.gif MOSCOW, August 13 (RIA Novosti) - Russian peacekeepers shot down a Georgian unmanned reconnaissance plane over the capital of breakaway South Ossetia on Wednesday, a Defense Ministry official said.

 

"Despite Georgia's assurances that it would end military action, a Georgian unmanned drone was detected over Tskhinvali on Wednesday. ... Russian peacekeepers shot it down," the official said.

 

The spokesman said the drone was downed around 17:30 [13:30 GMT] and was the second reconnaissance aircraft to be shot down over the region since last night.

 

At least eight flights by reconnaissance drones over the separatist republic were reported by Russian peacekeepers last Thursday, a day before Georgia launched its devastating military offensive on South Ossetia August 8.

 

 

[MosJan]

sahakashmili thinks this is a video game ?? sending his toys to spy ??

 

[MosJan]

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World

Russian peacekeepers remove weapons from Georgian arms depot

19:37 | 13/ 08/ 2008 http://img.rian.ru/i/b_print.gif MOSCOW, August 13 (RIA Novosti) - Russian peacekeepers are removing equipment and weapons from an arms depot discovered near the Georgian town of Gori, close to the border with South Ossetia, a peacekeeping spokesman said on Wednesday.

 

"We have discovered an undefended Georgian army depot containing a significant amount of military hardware and weapons near the town of Gori. The military hardware is in full working order and combat ready," the spokesman said.

 

He said the peacekeepers were trying to clear the area close to the conflict zone of weapons and military hardware to guarantee the security and safety of the civilian population. He once again denied that Russian troops are continuing to advance inside Georgia.

 

"Any claims that Russian troops are advancing inside Georgia are untrue," he said.

 

Georgia is continuing to maintain that Russian troops are moving from the Georgian town of Gori towards the capital Tbilisi. Russia has denied the allegations.

 

Russia has meanwhile sent over 1,700 rescue workers and hundreds of medical personal to the devastated South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, the emergencies minister said Wednesday. Two field hospitals have been set up in the city. Debris is being cleared and measures taken to prevent any outbreak of disease.

 

At least 1,600 civilians were killed and more than 30,000 fled across the border to Russia following Georgia's military offensive to regain control of the region which began last Friday.

 

During the subsequent counter operation to expel Georgian troops from the de facto independent republic and to reinforce Russian peacekeepers, Moscow sent some 10,000 troops and several hundred armored vehicles into the area

[MosJan]

BTW - Tom Clancy predicted the South Ossetian conflict

Tom Clancy, author of the Hunt for Red October and a host of other military themed thrillers, predicted the South Ossetian conflict seven years ago. His story, describing Russia coming to the rescue of the South Ossetians and sending tanks into Georgia, was used in a computer game.

[MosJan]

News Send to friend | Print version http://www.russiatoday.com/media/news/5/48a29c0e68745.jpg

 

August 13, 2008, 12:30

Captured map shows Georgia planned to invade Abkhazia

Russian troops have discovered what they believe are plans for an invasion of Abkhazia in a captured Georgian command post vehicle. On Wednesday, Abkhazian armed forces succeeded in pushing Georgian troops out of the Upper Kodori Gorge in anticipation of such an attack. For the past few days the spotlight has been on Georgia's other breakaway republic, South Ossetia.

 

But the captured documents apparently outline steps for the invasion of Abkhazia, a region twice the size of South Ossetia, bordering the Black Sea.

 

 

[Arpa]

im s@rtits xosetsir Arpa papik

Ayo, Sireli Mosik. Du lav es imatsel yev haskatsel im patkam@.

Menq shat Narekatsiner, Shnorhaliner yev Lousavorichner enq ounetsel, orq khachov en hardzakel tri dem, yev lsel the ortegh zeteghen irants khach@. Yerani, mi or menq al ounenanq stalinner, kakatafurkner or asen et shnerin ortegh zeteghel irants trer@.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Arpa

[Arpa]

One can only wonder if that "bushwacker" from Texas-DC has seen how US citizens from Georgia are seeking safe haven in that "Genocide" Victim Armenia. Does he know how spell A R M E N I A? No no. It it is not NKLR, and not in that other "Genocide perpetrator"his sweetheart furkey?

Do those Americans know something about hospitable Armenians vs genocidal furks?

Where is "mehmet"? How come they are not attacking Tiflis to aid their potential "NATO" ally- friend"?

One can only wish that "mehmet" would be involed. "mehmet" may still be deluded in 1917, Russian Revolution when the "northern bear" ran away with its tail between its hind legs, leaving the Armenians to the "mercy" of gakafurk.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Arpa

[irlandahay]

It's a shame a Russian bomb didn't land on the Stalin statue in Gori's main square.

 

What kind of people continue to honor individuals with credentials like Stalin's?....

 

do I need to remind you that there are still statues of Lenin standing in Armenia?

 

that the Armenian communist leader has statues everywhere and even a street named after him?

[Arpa]

do I need to remind you that there are still statues of Lenin standing in Armenia?

==

Please tell us where?

 

[MosJan]

US plans aid to Georgia as Russia rolls into city By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA and MATTI FRIEDMAN, Associated Press Writer OUTSIDE GORI, Georgia - Russian troops and paramilitaries rolled into the strategic Georgian city of Gori on Wednesday, apparently violating a truce designed to end the conflict that has uprooted tens of thousands and scarred the Georgian landscape. In Washington, President Bush said the United States planned a massive humanitarian effort involving American ships and aircraft, includiung a C-17 military cargo plane loaded with supplies that landed on Wednesday. He said Russia must ensure that "all lines of communication and transport, including seaports, roads and airports," remain open to let deliveries and civilians through. Georgian officials said Gori, a central hub on Georgia's main east-west highway, was looted and bombed by the Russians before they left later in the day and camped nearby. Moscow denied the accusations, but it appeared to be on a technicality: a BBC reporter in Gori reported that Russians tanks were in the streets as their South Ossetian separatist allies seized Georgian cars, looted Georgian homes and then set some homes ablaze. "Russia has treacherously broken its word," Georgia's Security Council chief Alexander Lomaia said Wednesday in Tbilisi, the capital. An AP reporter saw dozens of trucks and armored vehicles leaving Gori, roaring southeast. Soldiers waved at journalists and one soldier jokingly shouted to a photographer: "Come with us, beauty, we're going to Tbilisi!" But the convoy turned north and left the highway about an hour's drive from the Georgian capital, and set up camp a mile off the road. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said Russian troops were near Gori to secure weapons left behind by the Georgians. To the west, Russian-backed Abkhazian separatists pushed Georgian troops out of Abkhazia and even moved into Georgian territory itself, defiantly planting a flag over the Inguri River and laughing that retreating Georgians had received "American training in running away." The developments came less than 12 hours after Georgia's president said he accepted a cease-fire plan brokered by France. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Tuesday that Russia was halting military action because Georgia had paid enough for its attack last Thursday on South Ossetia. Bush said he was skeptical that Moscow was honoring the cease-fire. "To begin to repair the damage to its relations with the United States, Europe and other nations and to begin restoring its place in the world, Russia must keep its word and act to end this crisis," Bush said. The EU peace plan calls for both sides to retreat to the positions they held prior to the outbreak of fighting late Thursday. That phrasing apparently would allow Georgian forces to return to the positions they held in South Ossetia and Abkhazia and clearly obliges Russia to leave all parts of Georgia except South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili criticized Western nations for failing to help Georgia, a U.S. ally that has been seeking NATO membership. "I feel that they are partly to blame," he said Wednesday. "Not only those who commit atrocities are responsible ... but so are those who fail to react. In a way, Russians are fighting a proxy war with the West through us." Russian at first denied that tanks were even in Gori but video footage proved otherwise. About 50 Russian tanks entered Gori in the morning, according to Lomaia. The city of 50,000 lies 15 miles south of South Ossetia, where much of the fighting has taken place. Some of the Russian units that later left to camp outside the city were camouflaged with foliage. The convoy was mainly support vehicles, including ambulances, although there were a few heavy cannons. There were about 100 combat troops and another 100 medics, drivers and other support personnel. About six miles away from the camp, about 80 well-equipped Georgian soldiers were forming what appeared to be a new frontline, armed with pistols, shoulder-launched anti-tank rockets and Kalashnikovs. Sporadic clashes continued in South Ossetia where Russians responded to Georgian snipers. Georgia borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union. Russia has handed out passports to most in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and stationed peacekeepers in both regions since the early 1990s. Georgia wants the Russian peacekeepers out, but Medvedev has insisted they stay. Russia's Lavrov lashed back after Bush's comments Wednesday, calling Georgia's leadership "a special project of the United States. And we understand that the United States is worried about its project." He was quoted by Russian news agencies as saying that at some point, the United States will have to choose: "either support for a virtual project, or real partnership on issues that really demand collective action," referring to U.S. cooperation with Russia in the U.N. Security Council on Iran and other world tension spots. Meanwhile, Georgia's security chief also said Russian forces targeted three Georgian Coast Guard boats in the Black Sea port of Poti, and Georgian television showed boats ablaze in the harbor. Bush expressed concern that Russian forces have entered and taken positions in Poti, that Russian armored vehicles are blocking access to that port, and that Russia is blowing up Georgian vessels. Lavrov denied that Russian troops were anywhere near the city. In the west, Georgian troops acknowledged Wednesday they had completely pulled out of a small section of Abkhazia they had controlled. "This is Abkhazian land," one separatist told an AP reporter over the Inguri River, saying they were laying claim to historical Abkhazian territory. The fighters had moved across a thin slice of land dotted with Georgian villages. "The border has been along this river for 1,000 years," separatist official Ruslan Kishmaria told the AP on Wednesday. He said Georgia would have to accept the new border. Nogovitsyn admitted Wednesday that Russian peacekeepers had disarmed Georgian troops in Kodori — the same peacekeepers that Georgia wants withdrawn. Abkhazia lies close to the heart of many Russians. Its Black Sea coast was a favorite vacation spot in Soviet times and the province is just down the coast from Sochi, the Russian resort that will host the 2014 Olympics. For several days, Russian troops held the western town of Zugdidi near Abkhazia, controlling the region's main highway. An AP reporter saw a convoy of 13 Russian tanks and armored personnel carriers in Zugdidi's outskirts Wednesday. Later in the day, Georgian officials said the Russians pulled out of Zugdidi. "They just don't want freedom, and that's why they want to stamp on Georgia and destroy it," he declared to thousands at a jam-packed square in Tbilisi. Leaders of five former Soviet bloc states — Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Ukraine — also appeared at the rally and spoke out against Russian domination. Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko issued a decree Wednesday saying that Russian navy ships deployed to the Georgian coast will need authorization to return to the navy base Russia leases from Ukraine. The World Food Program sent 34 tons of high-energy biscuits Wednesday help the tens of thousands uprooted by the fighting. Russia has accused Georgia of killing more than 2,000 people, mostly civilians, in South Ossetia. The claim couldn't be independently confirmed, but witnesses who fled the area over the weekend said hundreds had died. Georgia says at least 175 Georgians have died in Russian air and ground attacks. The Russia-Georgia dispute also reached the international courts, with the Georgian security council saying it had sued Russia for alleged ethnic cleansing. The rights group Human Rights Watch said Wednesday it has witnessed South Ossetian fighters looting ethnic Georgians' houses and has recorded multiple accounts of Georgian militias intimidating ethnic Ossetians. The report was important independent confirmation of the claims by each side in the Russia-Georgia conflict. At the Beijing Olympics, Georgian women rallied Wednesday to beat their Russian counterparts in beach volleyball, the first head-to-head clash of the two nations. "Russia and Georgia are actually friends. People are friends," said the Georgian beach volleyball team leader, Levan Akhtulediani. "But you know, it's not, in the 21st century, to bomb a neighbor country, it's not a good idea." "I say once again, its better to compete on the field rather than outside the field," he added.

[MosJan]

 

McCain adviser got money from Georgia

 

 

 

WASHINGTON - John McCain's chief foreign policy adviser and his business partner lobbied the senator or his staff on 49 occasions in a 3 1/2-year span while being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by the government of the former Soviet republic of Georgia.

 

The payments raise ethical questions about the intersection of Randy Scheunemann's personal financial interests and his advice to the Republican presidential candidate who is seizing on Russian aggression in Georgia as a campaign issue.

 

McCain warned Russian leaders Tuesday that their assault in Georgia risks "the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world."

 

On April 17, a month and a half after Scheunemann stopped working for Georgia, his partner signed a $200,000 agreement with the Georgian government. The deal added to an arrangement that brought in more than $800,000 to the two-man firm from 2004 to mid-2007. For the duration of the campaign, Scheunemann is taking a leave of absence from the firm.

 

"Scheunemann's work as a lobbyist poses valid questions about McCain's judgment in choosing someone who — and whose firm — are paid to promote the interests of other nations," said New York University law professor Stephen Gillers. "So one must ask whether McCain is getting disinterested advice, at least when the issues concern those nations."

 

"If McCain wants advice from someone whose private interests as a once and future lobbyist may affect the objectivity of the advice, that's his choice to make."

 

McCain has been to Georgia three times since 1997 and "this is an issue that he has been involved with for well over a decade," said McCain campaign spokesman Brian Rogers.

 

McCain's strong condemnation in recent days of Russia's military action against Georgia as "totally, absolutely unacceptable" reflects long-standing ties between McCain and hardline conservatives such as Scheunemann, an aide in the 1990s to then-Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott.

 

Scheunemann, who also was a foreign policy adviser in McCain's 2000 presidential campaign, has for years traveled the same road as McCain in pushing for regime change in Iraq and promoting NATO membership for Georgia and other former Soviet republics.

 

While their politics coincide, Russia's invasion of Georgia casts a spotlight on Scheunemann's business interests and McCain's conduct as a senator.

 

Scheunemann's firm lobbied McCain's office on four bills and resolutions regarding Georgia, with McCain as a co-sponsor or supporter of all of them.

 

In addition to the 49 contacts with McCain or his staff regarding Georgia, Scheunemann's firm has lobbied the senator or his aides on at least 47 occasions since 2001 on behalf of the governments of Taiwan and Macedonia, which each paid Scheunemann and his partner Mike Mitchell over half a million dollars; Romania, which paid over $400,000; and Latvia, which paid nearly $250,000. Federal law requires Scheunemann to publicly disclose to the Justice Department all his lobbying contacts as an agent of a foreign government.

 

After contacts with McCain's staff, the senator introduced a resolution saluting the people of Georgia on the first anniversary of the Rose Revolution that brought Mikhail Saakashvili to power.

 

Four months ago, on the same day that Scheunemann's partner signed the latest $200,000 agreement with Georgia, McCain spoke with Saakashvili by phone. The senator then issued a strong statement saying that "we must not allow Russia to believe it has a free hand to engage in policies that undermine Georgian sovereignty."

 

Rogers, the McCain campaign spokesman, said the call took place at the request of the embassy of Georgia. And McCain campaign spokeswoman Nicolle Wallace added that the senator has full confidence in Scheunemann. "We're proud of anyone who has worked on the side of angels in fledgling democracies," she said in an interview.

 

McCain called Saakashvili again on Tuesday. "I told him that I know I speak for every American when I said to him, today, we are all Georgians," McCain told a cheering crowd in York, Pa. McCain's Democratic rival, Barack Obama, had spoken with Saakashvili the day before.

 

In 2005 and 2006, McCain signed onto a resolution expressing support for the withdrawal of Russian troops from Georgia; introduced a resolution expressing support for a peace plan for Georgia's breakaway province of Ossetia; and co-sponsored a measure supporting admission of four nations including Georgia into NATO.

 

On Tuesday, McCain told Fox News that "as you know, through the NATO membership, ... if a member nation is attacked, it is viewed as an attack on all."

 

Scheunemann's lobbying firm is one of three that he has operated since 1999, with clients including BP Amoco, defense contractor Lockheed Martin Corp. and the National Rifle Association.

 

Scheunemann is part of the community of neoconservatives who relentlessly pushed for war in Iraq.

 

No one in Washington is more closely aligned with the Bush administration's decision to invade Iraq than prominent neoconservatives, who for years had regime change in Iraq as a goal as part of their philosophy that the United States shouldn't be reluctant to use its power, both diplomatic and military, to spread democracy and to guarantee world order.

 

Now, McCain and other politicians who pushed for the invasion are seeking to emphasize the progress, albeit fragile, of the current troop surge in Iraq.

 

In the months before the war began, Scheuenemann ran the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, set up in November 2002 when public support for the looming invasion was eroding.

 

Before that, Scheunemann was on board with the Project for the New American Century, whose letter to Bush nine days after the Sept. 11 attacks pointed to Iraq as a possible link to the terrorists.

 

The letter said American forces must be prepared to support "by all means necessary" the U.S. government's commitment to opponents of Saddam Hussein.

 

Scheunemann was among the letter's 37 signers, a Who's Who of neoconservative luminaries including William Kristol and Richard Perle.

 

If anything, Scheunemann's duties have been enhanced from McCain's 2000 presidential campaign, when Scheunemann also advised McCain on national security and foreign policy issues.

 

Earlier in his political career, McCain displayed the kind of caution that could be expected from someone who fought in Vietnam and was a prisoner of war.

 

In 1983, McCain urged U.S. withdrawal from Lebanon. "I do not see any obtainable objectives in Lebanon, and the longer we stay there, the harder it will be to leave," he said.

 

As the United States prepared for the first Gulf war, McCain was among a handful of members in Congress who began raising caution flags about the operation.

 

"If you get involved in a major ground war in the Saudi desert, I think support will erode significantly," said McCain. "Nor should it be supported. We cannot even contemplate, in my view, trading American blood for Iraqi blood."

 

 

[Em]

Did anyone just watch Saakashvilli on CNN? Wow, I was waiting for him to start crying. He is a one man propoganda machine attempting to scare Americans of "big bad Russia".

 

 

[hyethga]

do I need to remind you that there are still statues of Lenin standing in Armenia?

 

that the Armenian communist leader has statues everywhere and even a street named after him?

 

lol Lenin was not Stalin and the only statues of Lenin that I have ever seen was in Lernametz - and that village is just nostalgic over the perks the Soviet system provided back in the day.

 

We still have statues of Miasnikyan, Stepan Shahumyan, and Hovhanes Baghramyan because they still carried their Armenian identity throughout their careers as communists.

[skhara]

The Russians are embarrassing themselves each time they call this a genocide.

 

This is crude Soviet style propaganda at it's worst. They need to learn how to deal and battle with the media.

 

I disagree. Remember screams of "western" governments and media of "genocide" over the photo-op of corpses of 20 or so dead Albanian terrorists gathered in a neat pile that DEMANDED intervention in Kosovo? Furthermore, if the alleged "massacre" of 8000 muslims was "genocide" how is the MASSACRE of alleged 2000+ Ossetians not?

 

This is a battle with the media and repeatedly saying genocide is a tactic with an objective in mind. They may choose to indite Saakashvilli for war crimes and charge him for "genocide". Then launch an operation to capture him and bring him to a Moscow based court called the International Criminal Court for the former Georgia.

 

 

[hyethga]

I disagree. Remember screams of "western" governments and media of "genocide" over the photo-op of corpses of 20 or so dead Albanian terrorists gathered in a neat pile that DEMANDED intervention in Kosovo? Furthermore, if the alleged "massacre" of 8000 muslims was "genocide" how is the MASSACRE of alleged 2000+ Ossetians not?

 

This is a battle with the media and repeatedly saying genocide is a tactic with an objective in mind. They may choose to indite Saakashvilli for war crimes and charge him for "genocide". Then launch an operation to capture him and bring him to a Moscow based court called the International Criminal Court for the former Georgia.

 

Fat chance.

 

The West may let Russia to bombard Georgia, but to capture its president and claim its fulfilling its judicial prerogatives to punish those responsible for "ethnic cleansing" is something they'll never tolerate.

 

Russia still thinks like the Soviets when it comes to media wars. Back then, they just piled capitalists, imperialists, and provocateurs into the same group and expected people to believe them (even they didn't believe it!) It's the same thing now and Russia could be dominating the media war if it wasn't stuck with its outdated strategies and mediocre responses given in interviews.

 

 

[gamavor]

What Georgia did in Osetia is exactly what Russia did in Chechnia on a minor scale. I do not think Russia is in position to make "genocidal" claims against Georgia since they both are very much alike. Georgia has a bad luck with her leadership since time immemorial. In the past few decades, everyone on the top of the Georgian elite could have been good example for political pathology. Starting with their native Stalin, through their own Beria, and at latest Gamsahurdia who said that he would expel all minorities from Georgia and recently the "mad cow" Saakashvili. Although a little bit refined and western style polished, he is in the same league. Even Shavarnadze although normal looking, acted with certain degree of rage no matter that he was the right hand of Gorbachov during the good "old days" of the Soviet Union.

 

Georgia is designed exactly as a little model of the Soviet Union. Strong concentration of power in the Capital and semi-authority in the regions, which as we all know, is doomed to disintegration, soon or later. Such model has no democratic merits and is based on ethnic and national divisions, which are archaic to the present world.

 

 

[Arpa]

What Georgia did in Osetia is exactly what Russia did in Chechnia on a minor scale. I do not think Russia is in position to make "genocidal" claims against

Oh Wow!

Our commander is back.

Speaking of fireworks.... Note that the music is Russian

Edited August 14, 2008 by Arpa

[skhara]

Fat chance.

 

I am not saying it would happen, but the rhetoric that I heard from Russian officials seemed to lean that way, "ethnic cleansing", "genocide", "gather evidence of war crimes" "Saddam Husein" "Ad hoc tribunal".

 

The West may let Russia to bombard Georgia, but to capture its president and claim its fulfilling its judicial prerogatives to punish those responsible for "ethnic cleansing" is something they'll never tolerate.

 

And the consequences of that would be what? Didn't "the west" do this with Serbia? Don't the Russians point to Serbia and Kosovo on every bit of criticism from the "west".

 

The thing is that Moscow doesn't tolerate an openly declared enemy that has fashioned itself as a dagger pointed at their throat. Whose lack of tolerance should carry more weight in the region? I would imagine the one who can muster the most firepower in the region.

 

In part, I think Russian's should push the wider confrontation argument, not just the "war crimes" and attacking "Russian citizens and peacekeepers". Quit simply they should push the argument that they cannot tolerate an open enemy on their border in the most sensitive area. The attitudes and actions of the western governments would not change anyway other than maybe "straining" some superficial relations that was of no real benefit to Moscow anyway.

 

Russia still thinks like the Soviets when it comes to media wars. Back then, they just piled capitalists, imperialists, and provocateurs into the same group and expected people to believe them (even they didn't believe it!)

 

Russia cannot possibly be dominating the media war in the west if that's what you mean, but they certainly dominate elsewhere in this conflict. In the western media, Russia is so heavily outgunned that no tactic can possibly give them a desired result. As Churkin remarked, that the western media is well oiled machine.

 

 

[Arpa]

Territorial Integrity schmegrity.

What does this mean to the so called “territory” of asserboobjan? And that other joke of a country known as furkey.

We have missed you Gams. What was that motto of yours of "the best duck is a dead duck"?

http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/20080814/a.../georgia_russia

Russia: 'Forget' Georgian territorial integrity

By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA, Associated Press Writer Christopher Torchia, Associated Press Writer 1 hr 22 mins ago

GORI, Georgia – Explosions were heard near Gori on Thursday as a Russian troop withdrawal from the strategic city seemed to collapse. A fragile cease-fire appeared even more shaky as Russia's foreign minister declared that the world "can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity."

The declaration from Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov came simultaneously with the announcement that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev was meeting in the Kremlin with the leaders of Georgia's two separatist provinces

I am still waiting to see what that "staunch ally" (of) NATO member ankara is up to.

Their silence is deafening. After all it is less than 2 hours' drive from Abkhazia to Ardahan.

Click on the enlarge button and see the distance between Gumri and the Black Sea.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/georgia.gif

Ardahan- population 17,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardahan

Edited August 14, 2008 by Arpa

[Nané]

lol Lenin was not Stalin and the only statues of Lenin that I have ever seen was in Lernametz - and that village is just nostalgic over the perks the Soviet system provided back in the day.

 

We still have statues of Miasnikyan, Stepan Shahumyan, and Hovhanes Baghramyan because they still carried their Armenian identity throughout their careers as communists.

 

They were talking about this village yesterday on H1 (Lernamerdz / Լեռնամերձ). Apparently majority of the residents are yezdi (եզդի) and they were complaining for being discriminated against, since ArmRusGasArd is refusing to service them.

[Nané]

AZERBAIJAN: BAKU EYES GEORGIA VIOLENCE WITH CAUTION

 

Public sentiment in Azerbaijan is clearly on the side of neighboring Georgia, but the Azerbaijani government is treading lightly, not wanting to do or say anything that might provoke Russia. Baku, which is intent on recovering its own separatist territory of Nagorno-Artsax, is concerned about how the fighting in Georgia will impact the fates of Georgia’s break-away entities of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Azerbaijani leaders and energy executives are also trying to play it safe concerning oil and natural gas pipelines that cross Georgian territory.

 

With Russian troops and armor remaining in Georgia proper, the signs are mounting that Abkhazia and South Ossetia will be formally partitioned from Georgia, and perhaps even annexed by Russia. From Baku’s perspective that would be a dire development. Khazar Ibrahim, an Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry spokesperson, has spoken repeatedly in favour of maintaining the status quo. "We support Georgia’s territorial integrity and the restoration of the peace process," Ibrahim said at a press briefing in Baku on August 11.

 

Beyond the territorial question, the Azerbaijani government has refrained from commenting on the violence in Georgia, either about Georgia’s actions in sending troops into the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali, or the massive Russian response. Officials strike a neutral tone, not going beyond statements of support for international efforts to broker a ceasefire in Georgia.

 

Ibrahim also said that Baku had no intention of seeking a change to the current structure of the OSCE Minsk Group, which is oversees the Artsax peace process. Russia is one of the Minsk Group co-chairs. "Russia will stay as [a co-chair] of the Minsk Group," he said.

 

Opposition leaders in Baku, meanwhile, have been outspoken in their condemnation of the Kremlin’s behavior. "Georgia is being punished for its NATO aspirations and its democratic choice," said Sulhaddin Akper, a leader of the Musavat Party. He urged swift action by the United States and NATO to bolster Georgia.

 

Over the past few days, various public groups, youth organizations and individuals have participated in rallies outside the Russian Embassy in Baku in support of Georgians. Some attendees at a recent rally carried placards with slogans such as "Stop Russian Aggression," and "Russia: Get Out of The Caucasus." Local media commentaries have tended to be critical of the Russian military actions.

 

On a practical level, Azerbaijan has become a destination for foreigners seeking to flee the fighting. Ibrahim, the Azerbaijani diplomat, put the number of foreigners trying to cross the border in the hundreds. "These people receive all possible support," he said.

 

The economic impact on Azerbaijan of the Russian incursion into Georgia is a source of concern in Baku. Some officials privately worry that recent developments in Georgia are troubling for Azerbaijan’s energy independence.

 

Shipments of oil and natural gas via pipelines connecting Azerbaijan to Turkey via Georgia have been suspended. A statement issued by the energy giant BP said the pipelines have not been damaged, adding that energy flows will remain suspended until the "the situation in Georgia normalizes." Oil flows via the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline stopped even before the outbreak of the Georgian-Russian conflict, due to an explosion at a compressor station in Turkey. Azerbaijan’s state energy entity, SOCAR, also announced that it has temporarily halted oil deliveries to Georgia.

 

Production at oil and gas fields in Azerbaijan has been impacted by the Georgia conflict, but state officials and energy consortium representatives have not specified the current volume of production.

 

 

Editor’s Note: Shain Abbasov is a freelance correspondent based in Baku.

 

Posted August 14, 2008 © Eurasianet

http://www.eurasianet.org

 

 

[MosJan]

 

ARMENIANS IN GEORGIA TO BE TREATED INAPPROPRIATELY

Panorama.am has been Georgian authorities believe in that Armenian airplanes have been used to attack Georgia, whereas Armenian official sources keep silence. In a telephone conversation with an Armenian living in Georgia it has been revealed out that after that incident Armenians are being treated badly in Georgia.

 

Remind that official Armenia has rejected and named them rumors. Yesterday Defense Minister of Armenia Seyran Ohanyan had a meeting with Ambassador of Georgia Revaz Gachechiladze who has stated that the above mentioned information is not true and is inaccurate.

 

Considering the current situation the Defense Minister announced that Armenia won’t be used as a political and military platform against Georgia.

 

Source: Panorama.am

 

 

[MosJan]

By MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writer 3 minutes ago

 

TBILISI, Georgia - A reluctant Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said Friday he signed a cease-fire agreement with Russia and declared in the presence of the chief U.S. diplomat that the West had behaved in ways that invited the invasion.

 

 

 

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said she had been assured that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev will sign an identical document. The United States says the pact protects the former Soviet republic's interests despite concessions to Moscow.

 

"With this signature by Georgia, this must take place and take place now," Rice said. She did not say what, if anything, the United States would do if Russia defies the truce.

 

Near tears at times, Saakashvili said he will "never, ever surrender" in the showdown with much-larger Russia.

 

"You are dealing with a people who despise anything human," Saakashvili said of invading Russian forces.

 

Saakashvili said the West sent a disastrous signal to Russia by denying Georgia a door to NATO membership.

 

Saakashvili, whose leadership is founded on a close alliance with Washington that has always aggravated Moscow, said that Russia had interpreted NATO's snub of Georgia as capitulation. He spoke hours after President Bush accused Russia of "bullying and intimidation" against Georgia. Bush, delivering a formal statement outside the Oval Office at the White House, said the people there chose freedom and "we will not cast them aside."

 

Saakashvili did not appear enthusiastic about the cease-fire pact, but Rice defended it as a good way to return all forces to their prewar positions. She said that the signed pact obligates Russia to withdraw forces from Georgia immediately.

 

"Georgia has been attacked," and the world must help ensure that the country's independence and borders remain intact, she said following nearly five hours of meetings with Saakashvili. Their joint news conference was delayed by more than three hours, a sign that the talks were difficult.

 

"This is not a done deal," Saakashvili said. "We need to do our utmost to deter such behavior in the future."

 

At one point, the beleaguered Georgian leader said: "Sorry for these emotions. But I feel emotion."

 

Rice said the time has come "to begin a discussion of the consequences of what Russia has done. This calls into question what role Russia really plans to play in international politics."

 

Apparently concerned that Saakashvili's lengthy tirade had set the wrong tone, Rice spoke briefly on her own before leaving Georgia.

 

"It's obviously a very emotional time here in Georgia," she said after visiting wounded people in a hospital.

 

"It's clearly a very emotional time but I think that it should still be seen that this was a productive day. I hope now that peace can return to Georgia and Georgians can return to a normal life."

 

Bush, preparing to travel to his Texas ranch earlier Friday, said that while away from Washington, he'll keep in close touch with Rice and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates.

 

"Bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century," Bush said. He reiterated Gates' assertion of Thursday that Moscow's behavior in Georgia has damaged its relationship with Washington and its Western allies.

 

Rice had said earlier that the immediate goal was to get Russian combat forces out of Georgia and more difficult questions about the status of the country's separatist regions and Russia's presence there could be addressed later.

 

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said Friday that 82 tons of humanitarian supplies have been delivered to Georgia so far in four aircraft flights. He said the U.S. military is planning to do another two flights each day through the weekend.

 

There are still roughly 100 U.S. military personnel in Georgia — ranging from military trainers to security personnel at the embassy. Some of the trainers are scheduled to leave because they are reservists and their tour is over, Whitman said.

 

"The United States would never ask Georgia to sign onto something where its interests were not protected," she told reporters aboard her plane as she flew to the Georgian capital from France where she met French President Nicolas Sarkozy who brokered the cease-fire.

 

The cease-fire require Russia to withdraw its combat forces from Georgia but allows Russian peacekeepers to remain in the breakaway region of South Ossetia and conduct limited patrols outside the region.

 

A draft of the document did not commit Russia to respecting Georgia's "territorial integrity," but rather refers to Georgian "independence" and "sovereignty." That means Moscow does not necessarily accept that Georgia governs South Ossetia and a larger separatist territory, Abkhazia.

 

Officials say the eventual status of the two areas will be worked out under existing U.N. Security Council resolutions which recognize Georgia's international borders. Those borders now include the two provinces where many Russian citizens and loyalists live.

 

The U.S. and its allies had been pushing for Russia to agree to restore the situation to the status quo before Georgian troops moved into South Ossetia last week, prompting Russia's severe response and seven days of bloodshed.

 

Now they have been forced to back down on the key issues of the mandate of Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia, which did not previously include outside patrols, and the territorial integrity question, which Russia ostensibly accepted before but no longer does.

 

U.S. officials concede the agreement is not perfect but maintain it will get Russian combat troops out of Georgia, ideally within days.

 

In addition to the cease-fire document, Rice carried with her a letter signed by Sarkozy that clarifies the special security measures that Russian peacekeepers will be allowed to take on Georgian soil, officials said.

 

The cease-fire would allow Russian peacekeepers who were in South Ossetia before the fighting broke out to stay and to patrol temporarily in a strip of up to 6.2 miles, or 10 kilometers, outside, officials said.

 

Officials say the expanded mandate would end as soon as a team of international monitors could be sent to observe, something they believe can be done in weeks.

 

___