At the Kayseri church

[Boghos]

Bravo, Steve ! I am very much looking forward to reading your always interesting insights.

[THOTH]

An interesting perspective from normally less hospitable Mehmet Ali Birand:

http://www.turkishdailynews.com/FrTDN/late...test/birand.htm

 

(note: Turkey - even before this latest crisis - had plens to cash in on the 2000 years of Christianity through a tourism push. That Birand say ssuch is indicative of an interest shift over there however.)

 

 

and another report:

 

JUNE 08, 15:29 EST

 

Armenians Make Pilgrimage to Turkey

 

By BEN HOLLAND

Associated Press Writer

 

 

KAYSERI, Turkey (AP) — Some 150 Armenian-Americans joined their brethren in Turkey on Friday for a religious service to mark the 1,700th anniversary of the founding of the Armenian church in a city where Christianity is scarcely practiced.

 

Less than a dozen Armenians now live in the central Turkish city of Kayseri, where St. Gregory the Illuminator — founder of the Armenian church — was baptized in the church that still bears his name. It now holds just two or three services a year.

 

Inside, purple-robed priests wafted incense above the chanting of some 300 worshippers celebrating the anniversary of their faith.

 

For many of the Armenian-Americans the trip to Turkey was a personal voyage of discovery — a chance to see the towns and villages their parents or grandparents were forced to flee as violence shook the Ottoman Empire early last century.

 

Armenians say 1.5 million of their people died in mass killings during World War I that amounted to genocide. Turkey strongly denies the label, arguing that the numbers are inflated and the Armenians were killed during civil unrest.

 

For generations, this dispute has poisoned Turkey's relations with neighboring Armenia — and with countries, like France and the United States, where Armenian diaspora communities have pushed for official recognition of what they say was genocide.

 

``Those events broke a friendship that had stretched back for centuries,'' said Hajak Barsamyan, the head of the Armenian church in New York City, who presided over the service alongside Turkey's Armenian Patriarch Mesrob II. ``But anything that's broken can be repaired.''

 

``There's an affinity between Armenians and Turks, it's more than geographical,'' said Noubor E. Kazarian, a stockbroker from New York City.

 

Like many others, Kazarian said he had come ``to see the Turkey where my father and mother grew up.''

 

A two-week tour of central and eastern Turkey, organized by the Turkish-Armenian Business Council and the Armenian church in the United States, will take the group through some of the cradles of Armenian culture.

 

Kebor Toroyan, an academic from New Canaan, Conn. and the group's chair, is looking forward to visiting the southern city of Adana — his grandfather's old home.

 

``When I was growing up in the United States, my grandfather said to me, over and over, 'You should see the size of the peaches in Adana','' he said with a smile.

 

Armenians still living in Turkey — there are some 65,000, though most live in Istanbul and few remain in the former heartland of the east — welcomed their trans-Atlantic brethren.

 

``Let them come and see — it's the birthplace of Armenian culture,'' said Bogos Yilan, a furrier from Istanbul. ``This year, 150 came. Next year, 2,000 will come.''

[THOTH]

Another article (as we wait for the first hand reporte...)

 

Armenian-Americans make emotional pilgrimage

From: BenSul@aol.com

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 16:51:44 PDT

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Armenian-Americans make emotional pilgrimage

 

By Ayla Jean Yackley

 

 

KAYSERI, Turkey June 8 (Reuters) - To the sad melodies of Armenian hymns,

emotions clearly mixed, 150 Armenian-Americans gathered in central Turkey on

Friday on lands their ancestors fled amid mass killings 75 years ago.

 

The unprecedented pilgrimage marked the 1,700th anniversary of the founding

of the Armenian Apostolic Church as the national church of Armenians. But it

was also a poignant moment in the fraught relationship between Turkey and

Armenians.

 

The "Armenian Question" has haunted Turkey for generations.

 

Accusations that Turks committed genocide against Armenians as the Ottoman

Empire collapsed have been raised in, among others, the U.S. and French

legislatures, but Turkey denies any such thing occurred.

 

"I heard so much about these lands from my father," Kevork Toroyan, 65, from

New Canaan, Connecticut, a thin man with a long grey beard, said.

 

"I'm here to see the soil my father always spoke of."

 

"Whatever happened in Ottoman times is history...(but) If Turkey is going

into Europe, it will have to defuse this issue." He said he had been warmly

treated by Turkish officials.

 

The Armenian Americans had gathered at St. Gregory's church in the industrial

city of Kayseri, built on the original site of the first Armenian Apostolic

Church. The devout prostrated themselves and prayed beneath walls adorned

with frescoes.

 

Mesrob Mutafyan, patriarch of 65,000 Armenians still living in Turkey,

conducted the ceremony dressed in a purple and black robe and black hood.

 

The group will move on to Armenia's capital Yerevan on June 17 for a grand

ceremony.

 

HISTORY'S LONG SHADOW

 

Much of the talk was of reconciliation between Turks and Armenians, who say

some 1.5 million died in massacres. The Armenians had been a large and very

vigorous community in the area and in Istanbul, producing a thriving merchant

class.

 

"My grandmother forgave the Turks and so I have to forgive the Turks," said

Karen Demirdjian, 59, from Skokie, Illinois.

 

"She didn't want to tell me about the massacres. She didn't want to relive

the suffering. It was so tragic."

 

Turkey insists the killing that took place in the few years from 1915 was

part of a general partisan war in which many nationalities, including Turks,

suffered. But Armenian-Americans in Kayseri believed Turkey should help heal

wounds by fully opening archives from the period.

 

The Armenian controversy is one that has hampered Turkey's foreign relations

and soured ties with some countries whose support it needs in its efforts to

join the European Union.

 

Ankara banned two French companies from defence tenders for a year in

February after France's parliament voted to recognise Armenian accusations of

genocide raised, particularly in the United States, by the diaspora.

 

Demirdjian said many Armenians from her home town thought she was wrong to

come to Turkey.

 

"Even my husband wouldn't come. He said 'I'm not going to stop you, but I'm

not going'," she added.

 

Some, a small number, were more direct.

 

"This is a very painful place for me to be," Barbara Bejoian of Rhode Island

said. "My ancestors are celebrating in their graves because we are coming

back. I can never reconcile with Turkey until the Turks admit to what they

did."

 

She said she was spending as little money as possible, not wanting to

contribute to the Turkish economy. She also complained about a Turkish police

escort which, she felt, was not there for their benefit.

[bellthecat]

Just a short description, Filiz may (will!)want to expand on thıs, and gıve some thoughts on the event (or I will).

 

As well as maybe 150 Turkısh Armenians and a sımılar number of American Armenians, there were several TV crews present - ıncludıng one from Turkısh CNN. There were also a lot of press photographers there (kind of spoilt the religious atmosphere a lıttle bit).

 

There were a LOT of priests, including three bishops besıde the altar, a near unique event I was told. They included the Armenian bishop of New York, and the Patriarch of istanbul.

 

To be honest most of the actual ceremony was a mystery to both me and Filiz - perhaps someone should post an explanation of the Armenian liturgy in the religion section. But it was all very colourful anyway!!

 

The main part of the service ended with the blessing of some bread, the clergy got theirs first, then those of the congregation that wanted some queued up for a piece. After this there was a spectacular ceremony where all the priests there made a procession around the inside of the church, followed by those of the congregation that were not just onlookers. They went around the church three times, aparently thıs sort of ceremony only takes place durıng pilgrimages.

 

Afterwards everyone left quıckly - the Turkish Armenians were goıng to Antakya, the Americans to Malatya and then on to lake Van. I walked through the old town wıth Filiz. It is mostly derelıct or half demolished, lots of spectacular ruıned houses that were probably once Armenian, and we looked around inside the derelict remains of what may have been an Armenian protestant church. There was another church that has been converted to a gymnasium!

 

Steve

[ThornyRose]

I think I'm almost done. I will, however, give it some time (so it matures!!) and see if there is anything else I can comment on. I think I'll post it in about six hours or so.

[nairakev]

TRose,
seems like you are a spy. Kind of a Turkish Matha Hari (LOL...)
I'm looking forward to your eye-witness comments. Have fun!

[ThornyRose]

I've heard that before... Pah!

[ThornyRose]

Alright, here it is. I don't feel like reading through it anymore.

 

I will not try [in vain] to set things up in chronological order, as that interferes with my train of thought and can be counterproductive against my efforts to think and remember the stuff and in maintaining some integrity of the subject and sub-topics and how they are interwoven and/or sub-related...

It might be a bit confusing, because I had a hard time picking details out myself... This was the best I could do. Enjoy if you can/dare! MWAHAHAHAHA! LOL!

And, of course, I met up with Steve but couldn’t find Levon out of the crowd, as we hadn’t been communicating for a while!

 

 

After much back-talk to/with boyfriend the night before (security concerns, what with the genocide resolution passed in France and all – even his father went on the phone to talk to me – though of course he was more reasonable and not frantic like my boyfriend, who immediately stirred in the MİT and bombs and what-not – hey, we are still young, and our imaginations are still rolling), I did get to go on the bus. My cousin’s hub has been appointed elsewhere and he was leaving the same evening, so I had to take boyfriend’s camera instead of theirs. (And boyfriend was about to shed tears when he came to see me off and hand me the camera. Anyway... Enough of that.)

 

Having made the mistake of taking a seat in the front row, I got off the bus at about 4:15 AM (they said we would be there at 5 AM), cramped and half-brained and going ... It was freezing at that hour, and I was glad I had brought a coat with me (June!!) besides wearing a jumper (is that a very British word?) over my black shirt. I had to sit in the lounge of the company for about two hours, watching dumb stuff, just to keep myself awake...

To go downtown, it would suffice to take the rides the company offers to its passengers. The driver that I talked to really helped. He even asked me why I was so interested in Erciyes (Mt. Argeus); whether I was into mountaineering... Nope, but I like it, snow-capped and all etc. So, he told me about how he had climbed up a few times and how, between the two peaks, there was a “valley” which was composed of very friable rock (as this mountain really is an extinct volcano) which would give in under any pressure; thus, it had to be crossed in the early hours of the morning before the sun was up, when it was still stiff. Else, you were to proceed at your own risk, MWAHAHA, etc. Beats me.

I did eventually get to take a bus downtown and was there at about 7 AM, if not earlier, with no folks around...

Having made up my mind that I would like to be at the church at 9 AM, I decided to take it easy and take a look at the monuments I saw while I was riding the bus... All close to centrum, anyhow. I wonder how the pictures will come out. (Will they? Boyfriend says the camera can disappoint, sometimes.) They ought to be lovely, taken in the early hours of the morning, my favourite time ever.

After taking those pictures (I will likely provide any further details when I post them), I walked in to the tourism info... Asked the guy, some Mustafa Bey, to tell me how to get to the church... He gave me the directions; pretty simple, really. Doesn’t take even ten minutes... He said he would be there at 9 AM himself, as they were expecting “papaz effendi” and it was his business to oversee the stuff... I had my doubts a couple of times; I did get to find the place with the help of a few kind people. I think I got there at 8:25 at the latest.

 

Upon arriving at the whereabouts of the church, instead of a nice and wide gate as I had expected, I found and couldn’t figure out what to make of the little entrance on one side of the wall, led up to by small steps. By the time I had arrived, there were already two bus-loads of pilgrims. So, I walked in with them.

I decided to tour around first before walking up to anyone and asking questions. What were once rooms and what-not for the priests and students (perhaps?) to stay, none had their roofs. Instead, the ignoramus that kept guard of the place closed up his dogs in such components of the compound (and what is/was left of it, at that). All signs were written in Armenian except for the new one which told about the restoration a few years back.

After finishing my preliminary tour, I started looking around for people to strike up a conversation with... However, all were pretty busy, getting ready for the service, and those that weren’t getting ready for the service were busy making up for lost time with loved ones, friends, etc, and my actual inability to go up to someone to start yakking didn’t help. I noticed that it was mostly the elderly and their children. Any youths/teens, I noticed, were bilingual and male. They were the ones who took part in the ceremony. I was, nevertheless, called by an old man with a beard, dark sun-glasses, dark suit, and, as I noticed, crooked teeth, who asked me very politely and in a very jolly manner, in a strong Australian accent, “Who are you and what are you doing here? Are you one of us or are you a visitor?” I was surprised, but answered nevertheless, “No, I am not one of you. I am visiting. I am Turkish,”... To which he replied in Turkish this time, “Oh, you looked so outlandish, I couldn’t have guessed,” sort of. Then, switching back to English, “Well, enjoy yourself and make yourself at home. Consider yourself part of the family.” To which, of course, I thanked, feeling tickly and tinkling, jingle jingle jingle, inside. )))

He seemed to kind of lose interest in me or expect me to leave, so I walked off and went inside the church this time to examine the inside. I felt kind of shy when walking in, unusually so... There were very few people in there yet. Of course, the first things I looked at were the frescoes and the cupola... Very pretty. However, I thought the frescoes weren’t so, you know... I wasn’t sure they were anything close to the originals (the place had undergone restoration in recent years), as the work wasn’t that fine - in fact, a little rough and somewhat crude, almost mocking... Then again, maybe it’s just me.

The cupola stands on four pillars, each with an apostle on the inner side of the part of the pillar that merges with the rim of the dome, I think, as Steve had told me before we left, each figure with an animal next to it, looking over its shoulder or sitting next to it. They were the lion, the eagle, the cow, and something else, which I don’t remember but recall noting looked like a human figure with wings – an angel? Had something to do about the Judgement... Steve, what were they?

The inside was dazzling, almost shimmering (and I guess the gold of the altars – and real “gold water” at that, as explained to me by Mustafa Bey – gave that impression?) compared to the outside, which was just gray... Reminded me of the contrast of the “Duomo” in Florence – the outside was magnificent whereas the inside was bland for lack of a better word. (And I had joked that they had run out of money for the inside – perhaps true, though?) I noticed the two paintings on each side of the central altar (is that what you call it? central?), too...

Although that article I read at Virtualani said the church was cross-shaped, I cannot agree. The two eastern and western extensions on the sides weren’t that long. Not long enough to give the impression that you were in a cross-shaped building. I wouldn’t have thought of that if it weren’t for the article I read. If anything, these rooms too big to be called niches in my opinion, were elongated along the entrance-to-altar direction and short outwardly. These two each had a painting. One was about Saint Gregory baptizing Trdat. I don’t remember the other... Perhaps I took a photo? In front of these paintings and a little further off, on their stands, were places to put candles which you got at the entrance. Funny, while I was looking at the painting I can’t remember now (and the [other] one of St. Gregory and Trdat was probably taken from an altar, as Steve elaborated, as it was oval in shape and, while being fit into its rectangular niche [now that’s a niche!] behind glass now, the round ends had to be folded over the ceiling and the sides of the niche), one Armenian lady said something to me in Armenian, and I only frowned, meaning I didn’t know what she was talking about. She made an apologetic gesture and waved it away. I began to wonder if I should write on my forehead, “I am Turkish, speak English, Turkish, and Portuguese ONLY.” LOL...

I wondered why these extensions on the sides of the church had wood-plank floors. They weren’t originally like that and noisy to the touch of the foot, were they?

I noticed that there was a balcony right above the entrance but couldn’t figure out how you got up there. Turns out you got there from stairs outside, on the far side. ))) (Steve and I did eventually go up there and I noticed, from up close, how the frescoes were beginning to wane away already – moisture, humidity, what have you. It was also interesting how the inside of the arches in that “upstairs balcony” seemed to imitate the design of the veins in marble, but they weren’t very carefully done, and again looked mocking to me.)

I had been expecting lots of pews inside as had been implied by the article I read, but that was not so or perhaps it was my misunderstanding.

One thing I noticed was, at the top of each of the three altars you had the painting of a sheep positioning a long staff (with a cross at the end) over its shoulder. I remember seeing the statuette of the young boy Jesus with a lamb over its shoulders while visiting the Catacombs of St. Callixtus and learned that it meant to iterate the fact that Jesus was viewed as the Saviour – any relation? What is that supposed to symbolize?

I also liked the cross-shaped opening on the walls of the church; two of them, in fact, opposite each other and, again, on the North-South/altar-entrance axis.

That took me about ten or fifteen minutes, I think. After that, I went outside and saw a lady in hiccups, touched, tears trickling down her face

While thinking to myself, “Where are Levon and Steve??” the guy at the tourism info bureau, Mustafa, came up and this time shook my hand (whereas he had been kinda cold the first time – early hours of the morning, you understand). He asked about myself, where I lived, where I was studying, etc. And of course he did get to shyly ask me if I was Armenian, and I said I was not, so he asks me why I came there, with some sort of awe, so I say I heard about it and was interested, so he congratulates me, how nice it is to discover the brotherhood of religions, etc., (yeah right, me and brotherhood of religions? anyway)...

He did tell me some interesting stuff over glasses of tea... For one, I noticed that the bell-tower in the picture that I saw in Virtualani looked somewhat different. I did take a picture, of course and in fact wondered if I was getting it at an angle close to that in the Virtualani image; that would be nice. Then I realized that it must be the frescoes in the inner side of the arches – that picture was likely taken before the restoration in, what, 1996? (Getting old – can’t remember. ehehe)

The guy told me about Kayseri and its firsts and its bests, etc., but I can’t scoop them out of my memory – very overall. He did get to tell me that Armenian services lasted very long and that one he had to attend last year, in Talas, I think, lasted four or five hours, etc. He also gave me some bull-crap about why Armenians liked Kayseri – that it was prestigious to be in high elevations and they saw themselves above others and preferred to be closer to the sky – guys, I know that it is not the case, so do not try to refute it – the seeing above part. I just thought I would relate that as well. What a sucker the guy was, in that respect, at least... Sure, nobody’s perfect, but you needn’t take yourself so seriously, either.

It’s funny, I also noticed I heard people, who pretty much spoke in Armenian and Turkish alternately, say, “Inch bes yes?” (? I think) and then bla bla bla and, “Shnorkhalem”... LOL...

Soon the guy had to leave and I was left on my own. I looked around for someone like myself, alone and just looking around, but I couldn’t find any – everyone was conversing and running and skittering about. So I decided to just sit and wait and see what would happen.

It was funny; the guy that keeps the place is this one dark dark man. They made him do a few chores; one of them was lighting up coal in one corner of the church grounds (was that for the incense they used? I think so; in fact, during the service, I noticed that they put some kind of dust into those things that they shake – for reinforcement – whadaya call them? heh, in one instance, I noticed, as they shake those in pairs, one on each side, and walk towards the other, they almost collided them into each other, they were that close... how would that have been?)... They asked him if he had them ready, and he just takes the metal thing the coals are lit up in, scattering ashes over the priest that was there, with the poor priest waving about and screwing his face... lol... Like a scene from a comedy... The ignoramus so clumsy and reckless... LOL...

I saw a couple of blond people but couldn’t tell... I had given Steve a picture of the bag I said I would have with me – and was expecting... Anyhow, then comes this guy.. He starts walking around, looking (for a friend of his and perhaps for me)... He has to actually pass by me a couple of times to inspect the bag which he hadn’t been able to download and see as he was using an internet phone. And I couldn’t jump up, hey, are you Steve??! So finally he comes up, Are you Filiz? I get up, Yes, I am, pleased to meet you, Steve, etc.

So we sit down and talk and ask about each other, what we do, etc.

 

Thoth asked me about my English... I did make a few mistakes while talking with Steve... I realized (as soon as I committed them) that I had said “fresks” instead of “frescoes” and “arks” instead of “arches” and “tongue rollers” (while I was describing to Steve what speaking English after six years felt like for me – and made a mistake there and then, shucks!) instead of “tongue twisters”... LOL... Like I said, one has more time to think when writing... I always read and pronounce my writing correctly in my head; it’s the speaking that bothers me. Anyway.

So, we keep conversing some, and soon enough that dark dark, clulmsy, reckless man is told to pull the string of the bell-tower, keep pulling it for ten minutes (and I had the urge to call him “Zangoç Efendi"), and the procession starts with the priests walking on a thin red carpet and anyone who was sitting gets up to take photos and watch. Steve went whoop! up on a chair to get his shots, and, well, I did the same, wishing I had been taller, like 2 m something (LOL) instead.

The robes were pretty interesting. Very noble colours, black and purple and shades of overall light brown with dark red around the chest and shoulder area for the boys who followed, shaking jingly staffs. The embroidery was spectacular, of course. The head-gear for the elderly priests was fine, too. And of course they had cool rings on their fingers and amulets (?) on their breasts.

Once inside the church, the procession was made to walk on a white cloth, this time. I don’t know why or if it has any meaning to it. What bothered and yet amused me was the way “Zangoç Efendi" tried to get a hold of and roll up this cloth while the folks were standing up there, either watching or shooting and the ones who were shooting were like, eh, what the heck!? Ridiculous Zangoç Efendi. I don’t know if Steve saw that...

 

I liked the chanting... The incense was lovely (though it made Mustafa Bey a little uncomfortable, poor guy). The combination sent shivers up and down my spine, so cool. )) I wish I could tell more about the service, how it was conducted and all, but, like Steve said, it was pretty much a mystery and I have no way of formulizing the elements of the event. At the beginning, I noticed how often I heard the “-tyoun”... And, of course, during, I heard the word “Astvatz” often enough... Also, “voghormia” that I am familiar with but do not know the meaning of. And, during the touring-thrice that Steve talked about, I recognized they hailed Etchmiadzin in their chanting as well.

 

Somewhere midway in the service, we listened to the wishes for the “new page after 1700 years of Christianity of Armenians, be they in Turkey, in America, or Armenia”... This was delivered in English and Armenian... No Turkish, isn’t that right, Steve? If there was, I need a kick in the head to remember.

During the service, a little restless from watching and listening to stuff I didn’t understand, I undertook the “quest” to examine some of the paintings in more detail and decide what pictures to take. I hope to show them to you. One painting could be seen on one of the “secondary” columns (apart from the other four columns that support the cupola, that is), very close to the entrance such that you see it while entering the church, and it was incomplete. I mean this physically, not as a work. It had the lower right corner torn off, and it was a sizable portion, at that. I took a picture of it, and there was an old lady who was sitting on a chair there, and she called my attention and pointed a finger at one painting whose photo I had already taken. I thought she might be American (I guess it was a day of confusion of citizenships and identities for everyone), so I said, “I did.” She said in Turkish, “Did you take the photograph?” I switched to Turkish, “Yes, I did.” “Good,” she said. She looked back at the mistreated painting, “The Turks did this.” She turned back to watching the service, then turned to me again, “Are you Armenian?” No, I am Turkish, I answered. She didn’t seem to hear well, so I had to stoop down and repeat. “Your Turks did this and things like this. Instead of having ten tourists come, you would have had fifty.” I told her she was “right in whatever said” (as that is a phrase in Turkish) and made her know I sympathized. I asked her if she was Armenian (duh!!) and got a positive answer: “Has Ermeni’yim,” (I am pure Armenian). Then I told her my mother is Circassian. Her face lit up, and she asked, “From Pınarbaşı?” No, from Şarkışla, I answered. She told me she had been to both in her youth and that now they were settled in Talas. Then she complained to me about the door of the church and why they were not shutting it. I told her it creaked too much (and indeed it did – passersby shut it and opened it a few times, then gave it up – too noisy). She nodded and said she was feeling cold. I asked her if she would like to have my coat. She said it was her legs (as she was wearing a skirt and pantyhose), but thanks anyway. (And of course, all this while, Steve was following everything “on stage” very intently, close up.)

Speaking of stage, I did think about photos and all that. Thoth asked me if they actually allowed that, considering the sanctity of the service and all. Well, yes, they did. Everyone was taking photos and recording the stuff. So did I, though I did wonder somewhere down the line if this all but reduced the respect to one you would have in a theater if not in a circus (by their own norms and how they would be offended, I would think)... They didn’t object, so I guess it was OK. I guess it is like making concessions to attire in churches... Times change. Otherwise most women would have been shooed out as prostitutes...

There were some local people in the church; I told my aunt about it and she said it had been a common practice in older times for good neighbors to attend one another’s religious stuff. Indeed, I remember my grandmother telling me she had been to a church with an Armenian friend in Kayseri (wonder if it is the same one!!)...

 

What else?

While making the three-times round conducted counter-clockwise, I was standing somewhere and the procession would pass right by me. There was a lady to my left, and Mutafyan stopped by her and said something in Armenian, but it was so cool! It was like a shot from a movie, the guy’s demeanour and all! His voice was velvety, too, like I had heard on TV, and I also noticed this during his interview with CNNTürk. (Poor man seems to have many scars on his face from acne or perhaps chicken pox...)

And of course the folks were kissing his hand and the cross in it while he was walking with four men around him, holding a shade-type of thing (for lack of a better way of putting it – what is that called, anyway?)...

The holy bread Steve talked about was distributed at the end – not before the three-er. I know because I signed the notebook at the end, before I was leaving, and I did not take any of the bread.

 

Funny thing was, there were carpets on the floor of the church – and some lady was taking photos of these. Bah. Not even ordinary carpets.

I also remember seeing one Armenian man; I thought he was Turkish first, as he had a huge moustache and was dressed like a cartoon “maganda” – striped short-sleeve shirt with buttons open half-way down to expose the hair of his chest, a necklace, dark sunglasses, jeans, high-heeled shoes with pointed tips, a purple (!!) vest, and worry beads! He looked crazy and fun to me! )))) But I saw a huge tattoo on his arm: Sarkis. LOL... That was the entertainment of the day for me. I wondered if he was mad or something, as he looked kinda wild, but everyone was talking to/with him, so I guess he was just expressing himself. )))) Maybe my considering dying my hair a dark green is not so crazy after all. )))

 

After the service, they gave us a cheese-and-salami sandwich and ayran without half a pinch of salt (was this the free food Steve had been rubbing his hands for? if so, it must have been disappointing, because it did not satisfy him and we had to stop by a place for him to eat). Before he ate his lunch, poor Steve lost and found his camera. LOL... (But it wasn’t funny for him.)

We happened to hang around a little bit after that, which was when Mutafyan was interviewed. Soon after that, the folks boarded their buses and left.

What was funny was another confused identity story: the way the little girls out there saw me coming from a group of foreigners and asked me my name, in English, “Vat iz yor neym?” I said, jokingly, “Hedi ordan, ben Türk’üm!” (Eh, get lost, I’m Turkish!) The rest of the group started giggling, squeak squeak squeak, like field mice, and I couldn’t help laughing myself, “Gaf yaptı garibim!” (Poor kid, that was a guffaw!)

Same thing happened a couple of times when Steve took me through these winding alleys to a part of the city which was pretty old (and my aunt’s husband’s family had their own house there, very beautiful but old, which the municipality hadn’t allowed to be torn down because it was to be protected as cultural heritage but had done little to support it when the family had to lock it up and leave for the bigger cities – so, see, what is on paper is not being implemented; therefore, it was not utter neglect as Steve and I thought it to be, but close to that, anyhow). We kinda couldn’t find our way and then this man showed us the way and kinda ignored me, as I am female and shouldn’t be looked at lest he wishes me to plant the disease of lust in his good Muslim heart (LOL), showing Steve the way. He said, “Eski!” (old) and nodded his head, kinda agreeing with our puzzlement, if you can call it that.

We looked into a few buildings; all of them seem muddled up in my mind and I can’t remember what was what. I do remember the first one clearly. It had frescoes and the shape of roses carved into the stone, near the corners where the walls met the ceiling.

The others were nice, too... One had a rose on the ceiling (and all ceilings were wood-craft), which Steve studied... I think that was the one he thought might have been a Protestant church. I think it was in that same place where there was now a chimney built into/over a niche. The column heads were cool, too.

I talked some with my aunt and she said the place we visited must have been called “Bahçebaşı,” as it was close to Cafer Bey Mahallesi where the church was. That place had been inhabited mostly by Armenians once and had lots of Gypsies and Kurds now. (Maybe the little girls that asked me, Vat iz yor neym? were Gypsies themselves? Would make sense, as they were powerful dark. )) ) Her husband’s family left partly because of the Gypsies, she said. And it was them that pillaged the locked-up house and reduced the inside to rubble. Poor house. She said it had been splendid and it was a pity.

 

My boyfriend missed out on so much.

It’s funny how, after he hung up on my face, his father called me up this time and said that he hadn’t expected this heated an exchange between us, that he had taken a look at it from the internet and learned it was a religious thing, understood and praised my desire to see such but was also worried that there might be trouble because of the resolution in France and there was no telling and whether it would be worth the risk and that it was my decision after all (whereas my boyfriend had been, You WILL NOT go, will you listen to me for once???!!! etc., stirring in some conspiracies, the MİT, police, phones being listened to, the stories reminding one of the “generation of ‘68” and how protesting students would find the police waiting for them by the time they got home [all well-meant but paranoid and I can’t sympathize with that – though he was so sure of himself he did freak me out at first]) and that it shouldn’t be something to “come in between” us (hey, I wasn’t the one making accusations)... He said it was a human reality, this affinity with violence, though it shouldn’t affect our thoughts about our country one bit, in the same way what ASALA did (and he related how one Turkish counselor had been murdered the year he and his future wife had gone to Davis, I think) couldn’t be attributed to all Armenians (he IS wise!)... After calling up someone from Agos, I learned that it was going to be very secure (though I did not see forces there and was surprised they [the non-existent forces] didn’t search us Turks) and I told this to my boyfriend and he had to shut up... Though, again, I did not see anything, although that lady in the article talks about this lady who complains about the police escort. I am complaining about not finding enough security measures and this candy-ass is disturbed because of their presence?? And I thought she would rather be feeling secure, knowing what measures are to be taken against barbarian Turkish civilians, not army...!

 

 

It’s funny how I read the reports found by Thoth and read the names there, Bedoyan and all. These Armenian Americans came as a tour group and they had their names written on their collars. Moumjian... Tatevosyan... Some names that I read in the articles seem familiar to me. LOL...

I got back with a sunburn on my face and hands... LOL..

 

Some time after people started leaving, I asked Steve to explain one of the paintings to me (which I couldn’t understand from afar but saw exactly what it was about up close – I hadn’t been able to understand that the white figure was a topsy-turvy, what, angel? will check). It was the rightmost painting, in the third altar, on that front. I can’t say we got carried away, because we didn’t know, but one of the priests, I think, now in civil clothes, saw us and started shouting at us, Get down, you two, only our religious staff are permitted to go up there! I was dismayed and apologized as we got down the steps, saying we didn’t know that (well, at least I didn’t; did you, Steve?). “No problem,” he said, meaning, Alright, you are forgiven. loln...

 

Yet another identity crisis for me: this man came up to us while Steve was telling me about the eagle, lion, cow, etc., and asked me (I think he was able to guess Steve), “Du es Amerigatsi?” or something like that, I think, and then switched to Turkish, “Siz Türk müsünüz?” when I kind of sulked.

I asked my aunt about it, why, especially by those little Turkish girls, as it never ever happens here in Ankara (does a backpack make such a difference?), and Kayseri, too, is full of Circassians... She smiled and said she couldn’t disagree with me, that I certainly did not look like an alien... LOL...

Guess that’s it...

 

Oh – one more thing – while I went into the line to sign the guest book, there was a man there who was before me but tried to offer his place for me. By old, I mean like forty or forty-five. So, he asked me where I was from and the usual crap (will carry my CV with me next time – LOL!). Turned out he was a Portuguese diplomat. I did not tell him I knew Portuguese. He had been here a few years ago and was now assigned in another country in Europe (and I reserve that). For some reason, he offered to give me his e-mail address, phone number – just in case I decided to visit his city, he said. I didn’t know what to make of it, someone you don’t know giving you such stuff, and thought he might have some not very pretty motives, but heck, I smiled and said, Yeah, why not? He laughed and said it was a clever answer. So, while he was writing up, I told him I knew Portuguese, and he was very, very pleased. So we chatted a few sentences in Portuguese, and then he asked me leave and said he expected to hear from me... Steve was talking with someone he knew at that moment, so I doubt he noticed the man. Very strange... I mean, come on, I’ve known many diplomats, and none could have given out their personal info like that. I wonder what to do with this stuff now... I did say I would call back... And I can’t say I wasn’t thinking... But why does he want that? Is he cuckoo? Maybe I should have a couple of people I know investigate for me, whether he is authentic or not... Then again, maybe not... Yes... No... Maybe so... He did have a diplomatic passport in his shirt pocket, I could see that... Any comments, folks? Was he thinking he was being cool or something? (And I am not his age group – though tastes do differ.) I need some advice here, from anyone, Pappy, elders, someone else, etc. I don’t really have to drop him a line, but perhaps someone could say I am/was being paranoid like my boyfriend? And I would like to keep my word, one way or the other.

I didn’t like him, though.

 

In conclusion, I liked what I saw very, very much, and/but I do not think of converting or anything (as Pappy had been worrying – ehehe)... It was definitely worth it – my time, the sleeplessness (and this although I had been starved of sleep for the past week or so), everything. It was fun, as well.

Steve did tell me this little story, while we were in the “upstairs balcony,” about a man being asked if he would like to convert to Christianity (Greek Orthodox at that, I think), Islam, or something else... Buddhism? Anyway, the guy opted for Christianity and, when asked why, rather than delving into the beliefs, he said, “It is colourful.” LOL... Indeed… When religious people are asked by atheists about the need for religion, even the religious people admit that the underlying reason is something to believe in, something that appeals to our instincts… (And it is indeed inborn, as can be inferred from the way apes will start dancing and adoring say, a spectacular waterfall.) Well… Appeal to the visual sense is a pretty good reason. Who needs the liturgy? Right? LOL!!!!!

One thing I came to consider was the faces – most looked common, though distinct in their own ways. Some looked very different, yes... But most were familiar (like our cartoon maganda – LOL!!!!!)...

[ThornyRose]

For reference: http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/kays...eri/kayseri.htm

[ThornyRose]

Forgot one thing: there was an art exhibit in Kayseri yesterday. I wonder if Steve went like he said he would. I myself turned down his idea, as I was craving for my warm bed at home. Steve, was it good?

[bellthecat]

Thank you for that long post, Thorny - but howa bout a bit more about your feelings. Oh, I'm sorry I left you on your own for most of the service - I hope İ didn't appear rude!

 

İ did go to see the art exhibition - it was mostly amateurish stuff - there were a lot of self portraits, the rest were all peasant scenes. I think that when an artist is thinking of painting portraits it is either because he or she is empty of ideas or is living in a society that makes people too afraid to create anything controversial. Look at all the stuff produced during the Soviet period (...dare I use Saroyan as an example!). There was also a lot of embarassingly bad abstract sculpture - plus one figurative piece that was technıcally good but an exact rip off of a famous Renaissance teracotta sculpture (by Bernini I think).

 

But back to the church:

 

I was also surprised at how relaxed the whole gatherıng was, in terms of security - although at one point I was standing next to two men that were very sharply dressed in new and identical dark suits - they were probably security people.

 

Some comments on what you saıd:

 

The man who was speakıng in English was the Armenian Bishop of the New York Diocess. He had a very lyrical sounding voice, İ thought.

 

As well as the bread that was gıven out beside the exit, there were people queueing up for it just after it was blessed by the patriarch.

 

Normally there is much more food given out - certaınly that was the case last year, when several sheep were sacrificed. İt is a custom for Armenian religious festıvals. But Fridays gathering at the church was not on a proper feast day, so maybe that is why there was only sandwiches.

 

The story that I told you was the traditional tale of how the Russians decided on which religion to follow. They looked at the Roman Catholics, at Islam, and at the Greek Orthodox church - but they decided on the latter because it was the most colourful to take part in! (But probably the real reason was that the Orthodox church allowed the Russians to use their own language in their church services - unlike the other two religions).

 

The paintings on the pendentives were the 4 apostles - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. There is a story in Relevations about a vision in which Jesus is seated in heaven flanked by these 4 individuals. There is also an old testiment story in which God is seen flanked by 4 creatures - in the shape of a bull, an eagle, a lion, and a human. In the early church these creatures were re-interpreted to represent the 4 original Apostles.

 

There was an interview with the NY bishop on local TV here. The mayor of Kayseri was also filmed meeting with a blond haired American woman (a reporter?) in which the genocide was discussed. There was also an article in todays Sabah about the Kayseri church, and yesterday (Friday) there was a front page interview also in Sabah with some of the Americans when they were in İstanbul. Can you get hold of yesterdays Sabah, Thorny?

 

Steve

[nairakev]

STEVE and TRose,
Thanks a lot both of you guys!
I read with a great interest.

TRose, how come green hair?
Are you a Nina Hagen fan?

Steve, looks like this whole event was very mediatised in Turkey.
Can you tell us what is the reaction of people. I really wonder a lot how ordinary turks did react?
TNX

[ThornyRose]

I think my boyfriend's family buys Sabah. I'll see what I can do.
And, no, you were not being rude. I did not mean to say that.
My feelings? How to put it? Awe, I guess. And a tinge of sadness. As to why, that should be obvious.
Like I told you, I wonder how many more generations this is going to last... The church and the people that come to service. Is it going to continue in the same way?

How about fascination? I did say I had shivers up and down my spine, with the chanting and all. Sometimes I thought I was witnessing the scene of a movie itself!
And I did feel shy when going in. I realized my steps were small and scarce. I don't know why I felt so timid.

[ThornyRose]

No, no... I've had the idea of dying it to purple, green, or magenta... However, this was just thought. I am not that "wild" but there is no harm in thinking of it. It's like seeing a skirt in a window and thinking, oh, how nice, but you don't wear skirts and actually wouldn't buy it yourself. Of course, I had been thinking of the dye for myself, but...
My boyfriend says red would be cool for me... Carrot-top Thorny... LOL...

[THOTH]

nunsexmonkrock...yea! ......TV-Glotzer...African reggae....Born in Xixax...Lucky Number....classic/great stuff!

 

What is she (Hagen) up to these days...seems it was pretty lame Disco sh*t...though I may be a few years out of date (her early stuff [in german] was best...IMO)

 

"1968 is over...1981 is over...the future is now!" ra!

[ThornyRose]

I agree. This applies to individuals who know how to sell their stuff, as well.

[ThornyRose]

Old houses in Ankara Steve might be interested in, if he hasn’t already seen them...

There are nice houses, pretty old-style and somewhat cheery, around Cebeci, close to the Doğumevi... Between the Doğumevi and Kurtuluş Parkı, that’s for sure. I remember first going with Mommy through that place one day in the August of three years back... They had peppers lined up on strings, put out to dry in the sun! Old traditions!! I’d like to see them again, some time. In some, people were still living, while others were in bad shape and yet others had been restored. Yep.

So, if you come to Ankara and I can’t be company for you, at least this is the best I can do for you! Must not miss, IMO!

 

Of course, Beypazarı is recommended, too, though I haven't seen the place up close - just when I was passing by a couple of times in a bus, down the Alparslan Türkeş Boulevard - LOL!

It is not as thrilling as Safranbolu, I think, partly because the conscience is new yet, but it is close and not so bad. About an hour from Ankara.

[nairakev]

Wow, yeah, THOTH!
Nina Hagen is a punk-rock singer, composer and actress. She is a Diva. A real sexual "menace"
Actually she is more cultural phenomen for me than an outstanding singer.

She used to be dressed as punk, now she looks more like "chinese" cyber-geisha.

She was married to american film-director David Lynch till the year 2000. Oh, yeah... Lynch changes wives as often as the doctors change thier gloves. They got divorced...


TROSE:
I loved some of her pictures where she got colored version of her darkest ever black hair...
Thought may be you are a turkish Nina Hagen LOL...
After having been a turkish Matha Hari once

[ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[nairakev]

Mike77,
Are you giving a press-conference? Do TRose or Steve look like TRT correspondents or Milliyet reporters?

Give them a break...
Besides TRose has been a "turkish" spy for while, now I accuse her of being Turkish Nina Hagen(LOL...)

TRose, honey
It was a stupid joke, I must admit. Accept, please, my excuses.

[ThornyRose]

No need for excuses, I knew.
I think you probably wanted to include the "spy" within quotes, though.

[MJ]

Mike,

 

We would take your suggestion about banning you under consideration. At this time, we would like to remind you that you are at liberty to leave this forum, if you don't like its tone.

 

I am inclined to suspect that it may be in the common interests of this forum and you, personally. However, if you think you can restrain your urges and behave according to the Code of Conduct of the forum, you are welcome to stay, until we have evidence that you are a formerly banned person. This would be investigated.

[nairakev]

I was just refering to that idiot who was calling you spy here in this forum. I think he got banned. But not only for calling you "spy", but also for some vulgar and insulting attitude. I do regret it happened to you.

I'll be more attentive with quotes next time. I thought you have mentioned already that I'm mistyping almost every second word in my phrases. I was always a bad typist!


[ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

[ThornyRose]

I don't seem to recall... Mayhaps you are mistaking me for someone else?

[Mike77]

You its so funny. Just as you think you have hope for a better tommorow you discover something. Yes maybe thorn rose went there. So what does that prove after all? What you discover is that even if that person took a chance they will end up in Turkish prison with the other 10000 plus political ones. Turkey is ruled and has been rulled by a facsist military dictatorship. So they let a few American Armenians in for tourism! Oh my GOD thank you Turkey for that! You did not murder us for a change. Should we bow down and kiss our master??

I could care less if the Turks let us in for tourism etc. You know what? Turkey is like a Germany before the allies liberated her. Turkey is the unpunished NAZI. A NAZI allowed to live because of the corruption of the West. Do you think that by allowing a few tourists into your racist land, you will somehow makes things right? I am sorry I do not accept that! You must take responsibility for your actions and then determine if what you did was right.

If the moderators here have a problem with that ban me now. As I grow sick and tired of people that make concessions to EVIL.

[raja]

Here is the Sabah article http://garildi.sabah.com.tr/sayfa.cgi?w+30...08/t/index.html