Hellektor Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Got it! Makes sense! So now we need to wait until Turkey recognizes its crimes in order to start our territorial claims? That could take a decade, if not longer. For example, does Armenia have the right to announce tomorrow that it's demanding historical lands back? I just read this post of yours and I hope my post above this one will dissipate these false beliefs. This is what I mean when I say Jews are using this recognition crap as a lever to push our buttons and that of the Turks, therefore, neither the Judeo-Saxon world nor the Turds will ever allow this vicious circle to break. I repeat: Jews have fooled us for all this time that since they emotionally blackmailed the world with the events of WWII where they got 50 million Christians killed, just to force a couple million Khazar Turks to leave rainy Europe and go live in the dry desert kicking the Arabs out of their home, we too must wait until the gods "recognize" our Genocide and only then ask for territory (something to which they in fact vehemently object). We don't need the emotional blackmail: the Wilson arbitration is a valid and binding document that has absofukkenlutely nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide. Moreover, it is no compensation for the Genocide, we had been living in our home for thousands of years before 1915 and it is far from the Jewish mythological story book that "legitimized" their usurpation of Palestine (not that I really die for their cause either, I'm just stating matters of fact). Compensation we will demand after the Turds recognize the AG, whenever that may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 (edited) We have a bullet proof case for Artsakh too, does it change anything? There is no apolitical international court of justice. Besides, the Hague requiert both contesting party to apply, they have no power to force a party which refuse to take part. Edited January 27, 2008 by DominO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 We have a bullet proof case for Artsakh too, does it change anything? There is no apolitical international court of justice. Besides, the Hague requiert both contesting party to apply, they have no power to force a party which refuse to take part. No! Artsakh is and will always be a part of Armenia. It has never been a part of an independent fake "Azerbaijan". In fact the US doesn't even recognize either fake "Azerbaijan" or Georgia while it has recognized the Wilsonian Armenia for that matter. But, we do not have a legal document the like of the Wilson Arbitration which Armenians and "Azeris" have signed, that says Artsakh belongs to Armenia. They couldn't have done that, because in the times of the Union of Soviet Sionist "Republics" they were not subjects of international law. They were just provinces of the Bolshevik Empire and did not LEGALLY exist as sovereign states. Who said anything about the Hague? Correct me if I'm wrong, it is the DUTY of the 16 states: the US plus the "British Empire, France, Italy and Japan, the Principal Allied Powers [and] Belgium, Greece, the Hedjaz, Poland, Portugal, Rumania, the Serb-Croat-Slovene state and Czecho-Slovakia", in whichever form they exist now to FORCE Turkey to act according to the agreed arbitration of Wilson already 88 years too late. It is a matter of subjects of international law, not courtrooms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 If you are saying that Turkey is worthless and it has absolutely zero geopolitical importance, then why do they have so much weight when it comes to the decisions affecting America's foreign policy? You seem to be a little bit delusional with your conspiracy theories that Jews control the world. Yes, Jews hold a lot of important positions in US, but what makes you think they all act in sync? You are trying to simplify the whole process by blaming everything on Jews, but geopolitics and politics in general is very complicated. The more Armenians have this mentality the less we will achieve in our struggle. This just creates more hate. I mean, if we can't beat them, lets join them. Why fight the Jews, lets pretend we are their friends and act like they do. By spreading this kind of a mentality will just hurt us, I mean you say a little thing against Jews in the states and you are labeled as an anti-Semite. Why bring unncessary heat towards us? We know our enemy and lets keep focused and don't get sidetracked. By just saying that Turkey is worthless does not really help to ansewr a lot of question. I am sorry my friend but you are naive here. You need to try to analyze this issue more thoroughly and from all sides. We can and we will get the AG recognized here, it is just a matter of time. We just need to learn from the Jews and use their own techniques in getting our voices heard and making our cause into the mainstream American culture. Effective media campaigns is the key! .... Actually most of the articles which I read were written by non-Jews. We do have a powerful lobby which is not based on money but grassroots activism and this calls for a big thumbs up. If every Armenian-American could put a small effort into our causes, we would have achieved much much more. Unfortunately a lot of us would rather spend their cash gambling in Vegas or spend all their time bashing Jews, Turks, Americans than doing something meaningful. Jews have managed to paint Israel as this beacon of democracy while killing thousands of Palestinians and we by having the truth on our side still fail to achieve US recognition of the Genocide. Should we blame the Jews? NO, we can only blame us! All that you say here implies that you did not read my post because I have already dealt with all you say here. I won't copy paste the whole post yet I'll make an exception concerning the last sentence: but stop and think for a second that one of the reasons that the US is not officially recognizing the AG is because it goes against its national interests, one of them loosing Turkey. Who said that? Please do take your time and read the fukking resolution. It is pretty short and oh, wonder! I got it from the website of Armenian hating English faggots. It seems you didn't read the fukking resolution either, again I ask: Who said the US does not recognize the Armenian Genocide? From the goddamn HR 106, the insignificant, non-binding, non-value that has duped all the likes of you to waste their energy rather to concentrate on what's important: SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. This resolution may be cited as the `Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide Resolution'. Read the damn thing and it tells you how many times the US has already recognized the AG. P.S. I am not blaming everything on the Jews, I'm just stating facts and I definitely don't hate them. In fact I can give you a list with the names of hundreds of Jews: musicians, conductors, directors, actors, etc. who I greatly admire. Please try to read my posts in a tongue-in-cheek manner. Don't any of you guys have some sense of humor (albeit a dark one)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 No! Artsakh is and will always be a part of Armenia. It has never been a part of an independent fake "Azerbaijan". In fact the US doesn't even recognize either fake "Azerbaijan" or Georgia while it has recognized the Wilsonian Armenia for that matter. But, we do not have a legal document the like of the Wilson Arbitration which Armenians and "Azeris" have signed, that says Artsakh belongs to Armenia. They couldn't have done that, because in the times of the Union of Soviet Sionist "Republics" they were not subjects of international law. They were just provinces of the Bolshevik Empire and did not LEGALLY exist as sovereign states. Who said anything about the Hague? Correct me if I'm wrong, it is the DUTY of the 16 states: the US plus the "British Empire, France, Italy and Japan, the Principal Allied Powers [and] Belgium, Greece, the Hedjaz, Poland, Portugal, Rumania, the Serb-Croat-Slovene state and Czecho-Slovakia", in whichever form they exist now to FORCE Turkey to act according to the agreed arbitration of Wilson already 88 years too late. It is a matter of subjects of international law, not courtrooms. Actually they did, Narimanov representing Azerbaijan has officially both accepted Artsakh and Nakhichevan as part of Armenia SSR, prior to that Artsakh had declared its independence, it was an official acceptance which has legtitimate legal consequences. On the other hand Artsakh was incoporated in Azerbaijan SSR without any official acceptance from Armenia. So, there is indeed a legal ground amounting official legal document of the same sort as Sevres. Artsakh has also declared its independence and never was part of Azerbaijan, bot declared their independence about the same time. While legally Artsakh independence is more than defandable, Azerbaijan has been able to prevent Artsakh representing a side in the conflict while it has lega grownd to do so. You are again assuming that any international court of justice or legal document will endorse what is legal and this against the West interest. International Law is not apolitical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Actually they did, Narimanov representing Azerbaijan has officially both accepted Artsakh and Nakhichevan as part of Armenia SSR, prior to that Artsakh had declared its independence, it was an official acceptance which has legtitimate legal consequences. On the other hand Artsakh was incoporated in Azerbaijan SSR without any official acceptance from Armenia. So, there is indeed a legal ground amounting official legal document of the same sort as Sevres. Artsakh has also declared its independence and never was part of Azerbaijan, bot declared their independence about the same time. While legally Artsakh independence is more than defandable, Azerbaijan has been able to prevent Artsakh representing a side in the conflict while it has lega grownd to do so. Dear Domino, Fake "Azerbaijan" Sovatz Satkatz "Respublika" and Armenian Sovatz Satkatz "Respublika" were no subjects of international law. They did not exist as independent states; they were mere provinces in the Soviet Sionist Empire. That's all. What we have from Sèvres is much more powerful, legal, valid, obligatory and bulletproof. But don’t you worry, as far as fake "Azerbaijan" is concerned: it does not even exist, because it illegally stole its name from the northwest region of Iran and counterfeited their bogus state on historically Armenian territory. You are again assuming that any international court of justice or legal document will endorse what is legal and this against the West interest. International Law is not apolitical. I really don't know what your problem with the Wilson arbitration is. What amazes me is that you don't want it to be given a chance, why? You are suggesting that we should kill the unborn child, this is totally incomprehensible to me. And I do know the blatantly shameless double standards against the Armenians, haven't you read any of my posts? However, I don't think we should accept everything they want to shove in our faces. That's why I constantly scream that the RoA loser stance in agreeing to cede the liberated territories should be changed. Once again, what do you mean by "international court of justice"? This is a matter between states and it is the Armenian state that has the duty to urgently raise this issue. Correct me if I'm wrong: the gathering will be something like what happened at Sèvres not a courtroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elle Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Hellektor, Thanks for helping me understand the material you have presented. I had the false assumption that the AG must be recognized by the Turks before we bring up any territorial claims. Now I see why both issues have nothing to do with each other. Again, I'm still puzzled as to why the RoA isn't doing anything in this regard? It's been 10+ years since we've been independent, so when is the the good time to bring this forward? I understand that the Nagorno-Karabakh issue isnt resolved yet by international standards, although it's pretty much resolved by the Armenian and Karabakh standards...maybe even Russia's too. I don't think it should matter whether or not the world recognized Karabakh as part of Armenia or as an independent entity before we bring forth the Wilsonian Armenia. Please help me understand why Armenia isn't doing anything about this? The fear that it might not get anywhere? But the points you raised here seem very valid, so what is the problem then? Perhaps this agenda does exist in Armenia, but they're waiting to do this at a later time for whatever reasons? Also, could you please share with me your thought about Russia's place in this? One thing I would like to know is if you think that Russia might be able to help Armenia for a chance of bigger Armenia, therefore bigger area to have under it's control, since Armenia is the only ally in Transcaucasus and Russia has lost most of Eastern Europe. I already mentioned this somewhere in my post, but I'll say it again. Wouldn't you think that it would make sense if Russia would want a bigger piece of area tt have under it's control, since cutting the present day Turkish territory is to Russia's advantage for that fact that Turkey is a NATO member and the Turkish close ties to the "West?" The present Russian government seems to have very tough stance towards the American expansionism, since America/EU/NATO have surrounded it from Central Asia (through the Caucasus...except Armenia) to the Easter Europe. The fact that Russia doesn't seem to have so many allies now as it did before, wouldn't it want to expand whatever it has left? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elle Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Another question, but it's not related to this topic....I decided to post this here for a brief explanation, instead of opening a new topic on this. Hellektor and DominO (including others with much knowledge on Karabakh) can help me out too of course. Would you agree that the longer the Nagorno-Karabakh status remains "unresolved" benefits us? I think it does because as the time goes by, the situation in Karabkah, whether it's the economy, infrustructure or the population have been getting better? Would you agree that as the time goes by the region becomes more stabilized, so if there's another war that breaks up in the future, Karabakh will be in position to still defend itself from any Azeri aggression? For years we have been hearing of Azeri attacks after every failed meeting between Kocharyan and Aliev, which just shows that those fake meeting don't do anything positive or negative...they're neutral to the Karabakh conflict. We always hear how in very near future the Azeri army is going to attack Armenia and exactly at this miniture the Azeri army is already moblizing...I mean how many years have we been hearing these threats, but yet there's nothing happening on their side, except the situation is dragging on and people are getting on with their lives whether it's in Karabakh or in Armenia? Another question...I hear some of you saying that Armenia will be forced to give back some of the 10% buffer territory back, but don't you think that "gnatsk@ dra arden gnatsela" like we say it in Armenian? I think if it was going to happen, then it was going to happen back then...years ago, but not anymore because Azeris have lost that opportunity to get anything back from our historical area years ago? My point is that what has changed sicne 1994 in Karabakh conflict? nothing...no new conflict, no territorial return or anything like that....all the talks between our leaders and the Azeri leaders have not done anything. Call me naive, but I can't seem to think that after so many years that have passed, Armenia will one day return the 100% of the buffer zone back to Azeris? It doesn't make any sense to me. Again, correct me wrong, but I strongly belive that Armenian government (as much as it's full of thugs) understands the world politics much better now than it did durind 1990's (more experience as a new republic too) and I simply can not see them making any compromises, especially nowdays. Also, the fact that all the Russian military bases have been transferred to Armenia, making the 102 military base twice as big, isn't there for fun! Just recently Vladimir Putin announced that any aggression towards it's allies is an aggression towards Russia? We all know that Armenia is the only Russian ally in the Transcaucasus. Do you actually see the Russian military base just sitting on their butts and not getting involved in a Armenia-Azeri war, if that happens in the future? I mean who would Russia side with? The country that is an ally (and always has been) and where it has military base stationed that is twice as big now than before or a country that has strong aspirations towards the West and is currently dealing with the Western oil companies....and we all know that once the Western oil companies are there...they have some control of the country. That's always been the case with oil corporations. I'm sure Russia realizes, that in case of not helping Armenia, it has a big chance of loosing Armenia, since Armenia will see it as incompetent ally, so why would Russia suddenly want to loose it's control all over Transcaucasus? Plus, let's not forget that Russia has signed a military agreement with Armenia that states that if there's any threat to both countries, both will help out each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Hellektor, Thanks for helping me understand the material you have presented. I had the false assumption that the AG must be recognized by the Turks before we bring up any territorial claims. Now I see why both issues have nothing to do with each other. Again, I'm still puzzled as to why the RoA isn't doing anything in this regard? It's been 10+ years since we've been independent, so when is the the good time to bring this forward? I understand that the Nagorno-Karabakh issue isnt resolved yet by international standards, although it's pretty much resolved by the Armenian and Karabakh standards...maybe even Russia's too. I don't think it should matter whether or not the world recognized Karabakh as part of Armenia or as an independent entity before we bring forth the Wilsonian Armenia. Please help me understand why Armenia isn't doing anything about this? The fear that it might not get anywhere? But the points you raised here seem very valid, so what is the problem then? Perhaps this agenda does exist in Armenia, but they're waiting to do this at a later time for whatever reasons? Your post clearly shows you understand the situation, especially that of Artsakh. You also know the solutions. Anyway, thanks for wanting to discuss these subjects. I'm no scholar, yet I'll try to explain this from what I have observed, read or heard from experts. In a nutshell the reasons for not raising the Wilson issue may be variations of the following: I. Indifference II. Association with the Dashnaks III. Pessimism and disbelief IV. Fear that the world may become angry Let's just discuss the first and most significant category and leave the others for another time. Most importantly, it is the Soviet man in the Armenians of today's Armenia... It's the seventy years of anti-patriotic brainwash and the materialistic man the Soviets spared nothing to produce. Of course, this hurt an ancient nation like the Armenians most. The roaming Turkic tribes all over the USSR gained enormously, becoming nation states overnight when everything was done to dissolve our nation: demolition of Armenian churches, massacre especially in 1937 of countless Armenian intellectuals and artists, the destruction of our spelling by artificially converting it into Esperanto to graft a wedge between the Armenians of the Armenian SSR and Diaspora, etc., etc., etc. Despite all this, there were the outbursts in 1965 when the entire nation was chanting “mer hogher@” or the protests in 1988 for putting an end to “Azeri” yoke imposed on Artsakh for 67 years, a movement that brought the downfall of the castle of cards called the Soviet Union. The first “dark” years of independence saw war, earthquake, and plunder of the economy by Հ Հ Շ and the traitor Levon Ter Petrossyan. So the first ten years could not serve to raise the Sèvres issue. These last four or five years of constant economic growth despite the Turkish blockade, have made it possible for the Armenian government to start thinking about doing this. For this to happen, we need a patriotic government that's not just about filling their pockets. If you receive Հ1 and follow the electoral campaign you can see the most common promises are about raising the wages. Of course, it is understandable that an empty stomach must be satisfied first, therefore social justice must be established all over the country so that the people can start getting involved in political matters and care about the primordial national interests. The reason that I believe raising the Sèvres issue is urgent is first of all the question of population or better said populating the ceded territories. The Armenian Genocide is going on as we speak: just look at the desecration of the AG monument in Wales today, the murder of Hrant Dink, Gurgen Markarian, the destruction of Jugha, etc. Turkey is doing everything to totally wipe every single reminder of the Armenians from this world. This is the reason for changing Armenian place names and even flora and fauna that contain the terms armeniaca, armenicus, etc. Along with this, numerous articles are being written in Turkey on the so-called secret or Islamized Armenians. Without going into detail of the several categories of these Armenians, it is estimated that between several hundreds of thousands to several millions of these exist with different levels of awareness of their origin. I heard on a program that Turkey sends young Turkish “teachers” to every single village in Turkish occupied Armenia to brainwash these people. Just think for a second, these are people who remember their grandparents said something about their being Armenian. After only one more generation, incidentally, when the last Soviet men will have died out, this awareness may also wane. Indifferent that we are (remember the Jugha destruction?), nothing is being done to somehow bring a part of them back. I know Armenians who believe all these people are already lost, but there are many who have been to Turkish occupied Armenia who say these people come to them, embrace them, pray with them, sing and dance with them, help them and show every kind of kinship that testifies their eagerness to go back to their roots and in a free society who knows how many of these would cry to the world that they are Armenians. I am rather positive about them and I believe we don’t have a choice but to be optimistic. Indifferent that we are, we don't even think about populating Artsakh whereas “Azeri” filth have already infested Shahoomian with their species of Turkic pestilence. After 14 years of ceasefire a fraction at least of the 400,000 or so refugees could have been settled in the liberated territories around Artsakh, an issue that they have frequently raised. This would ensure the territories would never revert to fake “Azerbaijan” anymore. Just imagine, the four vilayets are returned but no one goes to live there and the whole population has lost any sense of their Armenian origin: we'll have an Armenia with 15 to 20 million Muslims and three million Armenians, what kind of Armenia would that be? If the Armenian government raises the issue in a near future, pressure on Turkey may increase to a level that it might break up the genocidal state. But the priority is coming clean about the ceding of liberated territories bluff, otherwise, what would happen if one nice day fake “Azerbaijan” says, “OK, give me the five districts and I’ll recognize the independence of Artsakh”? Compare these maps and you'll see why the whole Turco-Judeo-Saxon choir are braying in cacophony the same “give the “occupied” “Azeri” territories “back”” as the essential condition for the settlement of the already resolved Artsakh issue. Any change in the current state of things will be against Armenia, unless the Turks become human. http://www.welcometoarmenia.com/images/map_armenia_regions.jpeg http://www.vikenk.com/images/armenia/armenia_map_black_small.jpg Once the liberated territories are gone, Armenia will be as vulnerable as possible for pan-Turkist delusions. Emboldened by the usurpation of land even when they were the sore losers of the war they perpetrated, they will definitely break their promise on the paper and will demand Zangezur to have access to occupied Nakhijevan. That will cut Armenia from the only trustworthy neighbor and will bring about the final destruction of Armenia, the main goal of pan-Turkism. I'll come back to the other subjects later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 (edited) Dear Hel,, you’re Hel-of-a-SWEET Hel-Va. Where do you find these maps? Do You make them yourself? Speaking of which. Where are Nakhjavan, Ararat, Van, Sassoon , Kars, Artavan and Sev Tsov? Or are we afraid of the tsov/seas/water**, as in hydrophobia/rabies/kataghoutiun/կատաղում/ջրավախ/ջրատում? Are we afflicted with the disease of “hydrophobia//fear/hate of water/ջրատում? **Observe the maps of Armenia us when we came close, a few meters short of the waters of the seas and even almost touched them, except the short period of Kilikia? When did we become so hydrophobic, afraid of, haters of water? http://www.armsite.com/maps/arshakunians.phtml Edited January 30, 2008 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elle Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Hellektor, I was hoping that you would also raise the Russian issue...whatever I was talking in my last few posts. I would like to know your views on Russia, as an emerging power. I would like you to comment on the Russian aspect of Armenian problems. If you can, please comment on what I was saying about Russia. Seems like you have much knowledge on these issues, but I don't think I heard your opinion on Russia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elle Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 People... This might help to understand the Armenian position on Treaty of Kars adn Sevres. Please ignore the Turkish/Azeri propoganda in the beginning and wait until the middle of the clip to find out what Andranik Markaryan and Vardan Oskanyan say about the territorial claims! Oh and see what tha Cohen a$$hole has to say about the Armenian claims! What happen to Jews sticking to their own problems and not butting in with Azer-Turkish related BS! This is interesting, since it seems like the Armenian goverment has NOT forgotten or dismissed the Treaties of Sevres and Kars! Please see the comment that a$$hole Turk makes about the Armenians...he said that when Armenia drops the territorial claims and stops calling Eastern Turkey as "Western Armenia", returns the Azerbaijani territory, and acts "civilized" (ha ha ha ha), then we can have a normal relations with Armenia. To be honest...I felt like punching him in the face after I read about the "civilized" part. Watching these types of documentaries is not good for me because my blood pressure goes up and I'm only 24! It can even ruin my mood for an hour or until I forget that I watched the documentary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 Please see the comment that a$$hole Turk makes about the Armenians...he said that when Armenia drops the territorial claims and stops calling Eastern Turkey as "Western Armenia", returns the Azerbaijani territory, and acts "civilized" (ha ha ha ha), then we can have a normal relations with Armenia. This is what I mean when I say Turks do not tolerate the existence of an Armenia of any shape, size and form. These are only pretexts. In an impossible case of the acceptance of these, they are still going to ask for more, namely first Siunik then the rest of Armenia. The whole ideology is called pan-Turkism and its first goal is the elimination of Armenia. This is why I scream the whole time that the government of Armenia should come clean with the whole ceding of liberated land bullshit and deliver the punch you love to throw in the putrid muzzle of this bloodsucking, parasitical, worthless yet brazenly self-righteous Inhuman Civilization-deficiency Virus known by the repugnant four-letter word Turk. Hellektor, I was hoping that you would also raise the Russian issue...whatever I was talking in my last few posts. I would like to know your views on Russia, as an emerging power. I would like you to comment on the Russian aspect of Armenian problems. If you can, please comment on what I was saying about Russia. Seems like you have much knowledge on these issues, but I don't think I heard your opinion on Russia. I did tell you I was going to express my view on the rest of the issues you raised. The previous post grew too long and I thought I'd do this later. Two points first of all: I. Any government of a given country, if they care in the least about their national interests adopts a foreign policy accordingly. II. No nation on the face of the earth will sacrifice their own interests for another country. I have no problem with any nation (Turks are viruses, remember), neither the English nor the Russians nor any other. Every nation has contributed to our civilization in their own way, like any program on your computer does a certain useful job (except for viruses that destroy your programs and files). There are many things Russian that I like, mainly the great Russian composers who have enriched our world with irreplaceable gems... But as far as foreign policy, Russians have always been arch-hypocrites for centuries. The unfortunate truth is that the Armenians, being engulfed by hostile Muslim invaders have always sought their liberation from the yoke of these by powerful Christian nations, the closest of them being the Russians. Right from the days of Israel Ori's meeting with Peter the great in 1701 where Ori got nothing but empty promises, to the days of the Iran-Russian wars of early 19th century where with the help of part of the Armenians (the other part being perhaps rightly pro-Iran) Russia took over the rule of south Caucasus and rejected the independence of the Meliks of Artsakh putting an end to this stronghold of Armenian highland, unlike the Persian kings who supported them knowing in them they had powerful allies that defended the northwestern borders of the Persian empire, to Alexander III's anti-Armenian stance, to Lobanov-Rostovsky's famous retort in 1895, "Yes, Russia wants Armenia, but without the Armenians", to Golitsyn's closing of the Armenian schools and his dictatorial grip on Russian Armenia, to the confiscation of Armenian Church property in 1903, to the retreat of the Russian Army in 1917 from parts of liberated Turkish occupied Armenia in the days of the Judeo-Bolshevik agitation, we have seen nothing but treachery from the Russians. But the worst of all, to me equal to the Genocide of 1915, the treacherous bestial orgy between that Jew-Tatar ogre Lenin and the doenmeh Jew Kemal Ataturd, where 60% of the internationally recognized Armenian Republic of the day, minus the four Wilsonian vilayets, was offered to Turkey and fake "Azerbaijan", the reason for today's Artsakh issue, the reason for the Jugha destruction. In our days, the Ring Operation with the help of the Soviet Russian army cost us Shahoomian and other districts north of Artsakh, because the Armenian soldiers could not shoot Russians, exactly the same way they could not shoot them back in the days of the fall of Kars. We lost Kars because the Armenians could not bring themselves to shoot the Russian soldiers... Just imagine, had not the cunning Lenin-Kemal copulation taken place, Mount Ararat, Kars, Ardahan, Ani, Ardvin, Surmalu, Nakhijevan and Artsakh would be parts of today's Armenia and the genocide and war in our time wouldn't have happened. As time goes by we may increase our numbers although probably never as much as if there weren't the Genicide of only 1915 (not counting the whole nine centuries of Turkification, rape, Janissary recruitments and slaughter). How many years we will have to wait just to get the recognition of Artsakh? Will we ever get Nakhijevan back? Just imagine, the Muslim Shah Abbas, forced my ancestors into Iran and burnt Jugha to cinders but he did not touch the khachkars, yet after the region fell under Russia, they destroyed about 5000 out of 10,000 of those and used it for the nearby railway construction. Russians have never given a damn about the Armenians. Just like the British (in some cases even worse) they have grabbed every dagger lying around and have stabbed us in the back. In one of your posts you mention that Lavrov is of Armenian origin. This is where we differ from the Jews. A Jew is much better than us. If they get a high position in a government, their priority is definitely Israel. Why can't Lavrov whisper in Putin's ear and tell him "the whole Artsakh issue is your doing. Undo the wrong by admitting you put us through this shit by offering Artsakh to fake "Azerbaijan""? Why no Russian official has ever mentioned this either? Of course, don't forget that millions of specimens of sub-species of Turks live in Russia, Bashkirs and Uyghurs and Tatars and Balkars and I don't know what not besides the independent Central Asian countries, and the Russians have to take those into the equation as well. It is obvious we cannot come first given our limited numbers. I mention this all to remind us once more that every nation acts according to their own interests and while our government has to continue the current complementary policy of balanced relations with all powers, our only true salvation can be summarized into Yeghishe Charentz's prophesy: Ով հայ ժողովուրդ, քո միակ փրկութիւնը քո հաւաքական ուժի մէջ է: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elle Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 (edited) I'm surprised as well that Lavrov isn't really doing anything for Armenia, being half Armenian. Well, I think that Armenia should continue it's pro-Russian stance, but at the same time push it's own agenda on the Russians in regards to Karabakh. Our leaders should show Russia that in order to get the Armenian loyalty and a continuous cooperation, they must show pro-Armenian driven foreign policy, which includes the settlement of Karabakh conflict as soon as possible. If I was the president of Armenia (yeah right!)...I would still continue the relationship with the Russians, not looking back to the past mistakes and backstabbing because it's much better to cooperate with the Russians, than the Americans. I would make sure that if Russia wants continious loyalty and doesn't want to see another of it's allies turn it's back, it should act in a way that settles our problems....some of which occured because of Russia! At least our leaders have not forgotten about the Kars treaty and the wilsonian armenia, since they spoke about it in the above link I posted. One thing that I don't agree with when it comes to present day Armenian politicians is that almost no one has any political science, international relations, economics, international law majors. Most of them have studied subects, which are unrelated to their current positions. Why are these people with limited knowledge of government hold one of the highest positions in the government. What happened to people who studied related subjects? What does a math major know about governance anyways! I realize that unfortunately, these things don't matter in a country like Armenia, but it's a small observation on my part. As a president, before appointing anyone, I would look at their credentials first. Looks like only the Foreign Ministers of Armenia have the right credentials, no one else. Levon Ter-Petrossian also has a Doctorate degree in history, which compliments to what he was doing, but we all know what an a$$hole he turned out to be. Instead of shooting Demirjian and Vazgen, he should have been shot! I don't wish this to anyone, but certain people like him have no reason to exist at all. I don't know anything about his wife, except that she's Jewish, but has she played any role in what Levon did during his presidency? She's always next to him in public, but is that all she does? Could her background have played any role in what her husband did to Armenia beginning of 1990s? Judging from the fact that Jews always "operate" from the background, I wouldn't be surprised if her own ethnic Khazar (Jewish) background played a role in Levon's presidency. Edited February 2, 2008 by elle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 “The world does not understand our pain.” Renee Abramson on October 27th, 2007 3:42 pm I want to reply to “The world does not understand our pain” posted on October 22, 2007 by Chris Helms. I understand and sympathize with this as I am a Jew and my people went through ethnic cleansing which is the only definition of genocide, not what the Armenians have labeled as Genocide, which was a massacre. If it was true genocide, then at the same time that this was happening the Ottoman Empire that was occupying Palestine and Jerusalem would have wiped out the Armenian Quarter that resided there. However, instead they gave them many freedoms. Therefore, once more this Turkish/Armenian massacre, was not a genocide, but a horrific consequence of war in which all sides lost many. As Jewish woman I have a huge respect for the Ottoman Empire as they gave us freedom of religion to not only Jews but to the Christians as well. My grandfather was born under the Ottoman Empire in Jerusalem . We return to our history books that once again show us that the Ottomans allowed freedom of religion unlike every other empire that existed. This set the precedence for a friendship between Israel and Turkey. Obviously one does not befriend its enemy. Jerusalem has had an Armenian quarter for centuries. In all honesty, if the Ottomans goal was ethnic cleansing then they would have started in Jerusalem. In fact, under the Ottoman Empire, the Armenians would withhold their taxes as they added onto their churches. Much like when one adds an addition to their home their homes are reassessed. This is what we call “following the law”. It is a known fact that even though they refused to pay taxes the Ottomans still did not initiate a war much less any kind of genocide. It is easy to see that the Palestine and Jerusalem occupation was at the same timeline that this so-called genocide had occurred. There is proof in this. So I ask Chris Helms and the Armenian community why the Armenians of Jerusalem who now have a thriving quarter were spared? Could it be that the Armenians massacred were only the victims of war? When the public is given the correct information, then we can make an intelligent choice. Our history books give us the proof as the Armenians had a complete alphabet at that time and kept good records as did the Ottomans. However in 2007 history ignored and replaced with slanting, propaganda and lies. The House’s decision to rewrite history and call the Armenian/Turkish conflict as genocide is ridiculous. Not even the United Nations or Israel has supported this as true. It was not racially motivated. There was no ethnic cleansing. If this held any truth then the Armenian quarter could have been wiped out in an hour but instead was respected by the Muslim Ottomans allowing the Armenian quarter to flourish and grow giving them freedom of religion. Was every massacre throughout history motivated by ethnic cleansing? Certainly not. What Hitler tried to accomplish is a far cry from any Armenian so-called genocide. You cannot deny that many Armenians lost their lives as they were looking for a land of their own, however, what is not recognized is that the Armenians themselves inflicted as much damage as others in the hostilities of that time for their own selfish objectives. The Turk’s only policy was the removal of Armenians from the front line with Russia, where they were collaborating with the Ottoman Empire’s enemies. They were a threat to security. This is called war. Regarding persecution, the Ottomans had one of the most tolerant policies towards non-Turks of any empire of its day. The three communities of Jews, Greeks and Armenians were virtually autonomous within the empire. It cannot be denied that throughout history the Ottoman Empire unlike any other empire of its time allowed Jews to practice their own religion as well as many freedoms of their time. When the Ottoman Empire had taken over Jerusalem had they tried to annihilate the strong presence of the Armenians who had their own quarter? Never. Could you say that the Russians committed genocide against the Circassians and Adyghes? If you could then the Armenians slaughtered 200 000 people including Turks and Kurds and Jews in Eastern Anatolia during Turkey’s Independence War while the Turks were fighting against the imperial powers of Europe in 5 fronts. Armenians took the advantage of Turks’ weak position and waged a war against them by opening a new front. But, this was war. In a recent article in the Jerusalem Post Armenians in Israel led a small protest and were upset that Israel had not taken an official position. One would think that Israel would be the first country to define Genocide with its own history. The problem is that Genocide is being used as a loose term. Israel, a people who have tasted the bitterness of ethnic cleansing would be the first to declare this as a genocide. They have had nearly 90 years to do so. Instead, they have befriended Turkey as the two nations train their military together and have become close allies. Here in the year 2007 nearly 100 years after the decline of the Ottoman Empire Armenians are still trying wake the dead in this controversy. This is alike to Black African Americans looking for reparations for slavery. And like this it falls upon deaf ears. Society has little tolerance for people with a chip on their shoulder. It is not enough that this country had not learned from Vietnam and Iraq, but now the House wants to re-write history concerning the Armenian Turkish conflict. The problem is, the West is trying to judge history with respect to its own historical and cultural references. Racism is a Western concept, which didn’t have a place in Turkish or Ottoman history and the West cannot understand anti-racist Ottomans. Annihilation is a Western concept and the West cannot understand the Ottomans which chose to let live instead of wipe out. Assimilation is a Western concept and the West cannot accept the fact that different ethnic groups could live together. Mainstream Western understanding has given the word “culture” a specific meaning and does not understand culture beyond that. And it chooses to denigrate what it does not understand. The problem is, the last real empire that the West had was the Roman Empire. Later so-called “empires” were only colonial formations, not real empires, and depended on exploitation and repression. Like Ilber Ortayli said, the last Roman type empire was the Ottoman empire. You can’t really expect the (declining) Western powers to understand and appreciate something that is really different from their understanding of politics. That’s like Americans appreciating Martian culture and politics. However while the House voted, acknowledging the Armenian Genocide, it disregarded the Azerbaijan Genocide of 1905-1907 by the Armenians. War is war. This genocide happened as much as the Jews crucified Jesus. When will the House stop robbing Peter to pay Paul? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 That woman is as much Jew as I am a Turk. http://blogs.townonline.com/watertown/?p=5771 Reading the exchange makes that clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 That woman is as much Jew as I am a Turk. http://blogs.townonline.com/watertown/?p=5771 Reading the exchange makes that clear. Dear Domino, You were simply faster than I was. I posted before I read the whole thread. Of course, "she" is a Murat Gumen copycat and nothing more. My bad! It's a Turk posing as a Jew, it's more than obvious. The way "she" keeps on banging on that "Jerusalem Quarter" thing reminds me of the Kh*jal* crap parroted by "Azeris". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 (edited) This Renee Abramson sounds like a team of Turkish deniers, working day and night to smear the Armenians, just like that tallturkishtale retard. Google this scum Amazing how Turks capitalize on such crap! From Turkish Daily Jurkoff This one is strange though. What do you say about this one? Edited March 7, 2008 by Hellektor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted March 7, 2008 Report Share Posted March 7, 2008 (edited) Dear Hellektor, will you please stop bringing what these “hrews” have to say in OUR AFFAIRS??? PLEASE!!! WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THEM? WHO THE HELL ARE THEY? CAN WE PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT THEM, AS IF THEY ARE THE ONLY "chosen" PEOPLE ON THIS GLOBE??!! Let me ask this one more time. My previous appeals may have gone unnoticed. With apologies to the mods and ads, this time I will write in big red letters. Even idiots know that when one asks a stupid question, one gets a stupid answer. WHO THE HELL IS ASKING THEM? WHY THE HELL ARE WE ASKING THEM? WHAT THE HELL DO THEY HAVE IN OUR AFFAIRS? WHO THE HELL ASSIGNED THEM JUDGE AND JURY IN OUR AFFAIRS? WHY ARE THEY BUTTING INTO OUR AFFAIRS? DO WE BUTT IN THEIR AFFAIRS? SHOULD WE QUESTION THE 6 MILLION? SHOULD WE JOIN THE PALESTINIANS AND THEIR NEIGHBORS? CALL GENOCIDE/HOLO-SCHMOLO WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO THE PLESTINIANS, LEBANESE AND SYRIANS? THE PALESTINIAN GENOCIDE IS NOT OUR BUSINESS. THEN WHY IS IT THAT THEY MAKE THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE THEIR BUSINESS? Let me repeat: ASK AN IDIOT AN IDIOTIC QUESTION AND EXPECT AN IDIOTIC ANSWER!! SO, STOP ASKING THEM!!
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