Muslim Armenian?

[Sassun]

Dear Sassun once this idealistic youth oriented phase passes on and you get older and find out that what you were looking is not there in Islam, will you be allowed to convert back?

IMO if you couldn't find what you are looking for in Christianity, you are not going to find it in Islam. To me organized religion is for the birds but all the high morals are for the humans to practice.

From your posts I'm assuming that your friends are mainly Shia and you are looking for acceptance by them or sense of belonging to this group is guiding you. They should accept you for what you are and not by religion as you are saying that religion got nothing to do with who you are, then why do you need to change your religion.

Don't want to judge you but your act is very selfish and I'm sure this action is causing lots of pain to people close to you.

Yervant

It is not an idealistic youth oriented phase. I know that you find it hard to understand what would make someone convert. I have tried to explain it in terms of what I believe in, and not from the perspective of a non-believer or a non-practicing believer. Again, as a Christian or an atheist you might find it hard to understand. What for me is an undeniable truth, for you it might be something silly. I don't know how well you know Islam's teachings, but if you do not know much about it, it would be hard to understand what I am talking about. Remember, I have attended a Christian Armenian school all my life, at first an Evengelical one and then an Orthodox one. Both have emphasized hatred of Muslims and Islam. When I was younger, I used to -- literally -- be afraid of Muslims. This is how they were portrayed, as essentially evil and out to get me. Now, it didn't take long to realize that this was not the case. Because after all, I live in a country where more than half the population is Muslim, and at one point, no matter how much you live in a ghetto, you have to meet a Muslim and interact with him. The first time I went to "Muslim areas" , I felt I was in another world. I did not want to go there again. But after a while I felt that something kept pushing me to go there and see "what these people are all about". And to my "surprise", they turned out to be "normal" people, very friendly, and not the intolerant monsters I was taught to think of them. Anyway I wanted to learn more about Islam, and I started doing so. It is difficult to do teach oneself, because the language of the Qur'an, Nahj al-Balagha, etc. is more or less "higher Arabic". Anyway, I never thought, at the time, that I'd convert. It was just out of curiosity. Still, when I read the Qur'an, I had a strange feeling. Every time I read it, I appreciated it even more, and became more and more attached to it. I did not , of course, announce my interest at the time to any of my (Armenian) friends. But you know, my friends did have an impact on me. They continued to talk negatively about Muslims and Islam, and to use "Turk" and "Muslim" interchangeably. In front of me. It truly angered me and made me feel more and more alienated from them. It was as if they were hurting me. At one point I felt the urge to tell them what was on my mind, but didn't, because I thought, "not yet". It was important not to spill the beans before embarking on the commitment of a lifetime (which is what Islam is). My parents of course knew. At first, they were against it, and they used to also hate Muslims and stereotype them. But I used to argue with them about it, and tell them that you cannot paint everyone with the same brush. Anyway, eventually, after a very long time they gradually started to open up about this issue, and I used to tell them about whatever I had read and learned... and they started showing a lot of interest too. I started making Muslim friends, and it so happened that they were mostly Shi'ites. They taught me some of the more practical aspects of Islam... (By the way I'm talking about years here and not days or months).

And then I converted...

Well, it was the best feeling , ever.

 

Christianity never made me feel the way Islam made me feel. I cannot explain it other than by attributing it to the fact that Islam is the true religion.

 

My friends, before I converted, were mostly Armenian (though gradually I started making Muslim friends as I stated above). Although they were noticing that "something" kept changing in me over the months and years, they never grasped what it was all about, so when I did tell them that I had converted, they thought I was joking... then, after I assured them that I was not joking, they told me what many here have told me, that I am a traitor. I kept reminding them that MONTE MELKONIAN was still my hero, and that I still consider myself 100% Armenian, but it was of no use. I knew they hated Muslims but I never expected they would treat an Armenian the way they did. They asked me to leave. So I left. I do not have any Armenian friends now. My friends are mostly Muslims and some Arab Christians.

 

Has my conversion changed me? Yes, to the better. Both spiritually and in my daily actions and thoughts. But have I completely ceased to be the person I was? Or stopped feeling Armenian? Listen, they tried to push me away because they wanted to use their friendship as a card to make me change my mind about Islam. But they failed. Now, the ones saying I am a traitor and who know I will remain Muslim no matter what they say, are trying to push me away from my Armenian identity. They will also fail. I used to go to April 24 marches, up till my conversion. Now I wish I could go, but I do not think I would be welcome. I sit at home and watch Armenian TV (H1) or listen to "Vana Tsayn". To the person who said it should not be about showing off: religion/faith is not about showing off. But is nationalism about showing off? Should it be? What matters is what is in one's heart, no matter who accuses me of being a traitor, even if it is the whole universe, God knows what is in my mind and heart, and He is the Ultimate Judge. Does it hurt to be pushed away in this manner? Yes, more than you think it does. Yes, it was a conscious decision on my part to convert. I accept the full consequences of my act. But does it make it right what people are doing?

 

Am I less Armenian than you? Than ANY of you?

Revise your consciences and then answer.

[Sip]

Christianity never made me feel the way Islam made me feel. I cannot explain it other than by attributing it to the fact that Islam is the true religion.

 

What specifically about Islam makes you feel so warm and fuzzy inside that Christianity is lacking? Why are you having such a difficult time answering this simple question? Why did you switch? What is it about Islam that makes you feel so much better?

 

[Sassun]

What specifically about Islam makes you feel so warm and fuzzy inside that Christianity is lacking? Why are you having such a difficult time answering this simple question? Why did you switch? What is it about Islam that makes you feel so much better?

I am not having a difficult time answering it. I already answered it. My answer is based on my belief. You want to impose on me your non-believer analysis and understanding of what makes one believe. Your question would be better answered by an atheist or something.

[Sip]

There must be SOMETHING that brings about a change in belief. So far you have said reading the Quran made you feel like somehow Islam was the true religion. Well, Christians say the same thing about Christianity (actually, I'd love to see a discussion on this topic between you and our own aSolider). My whole point is that you and your "beliefs" are really no different than Christians and their "beliefs". You all read a book and start feeling all warm and fuzzy and get carried away with your "beliefs".

 

Don't worry ma man, you are still just as Armenian as Sasuntsi Davit.

 

I just hope we in this forum have made you think a little bit about WHY you are asking these questions. I think your true confusion is not whether you are Armenian or not ... but you just somehow need to affirm that the choice you made in switching to Islam somehow hasn't made you abandon who you really are. In a sense, I think it's is healthy you are asking questions but I do think you need to ask the more fundamental questions first and not skip over them with simple answers like "oh that's just my belief".

Edited May 27, 2007 by Sip

[Arpa]

One question.

Above we were talking about the language Islam and you inferred tht you pray or can pray in Armenian.

How do address God when praying in Armenian? Do you call Him Astouats or Allah?

[Sassun]

There must be SOMETHING that brings about a change in belief. So far you have said reading the Quran made you feel like somehow Islam was the true religion. Well, Christians say the same thing about Christianity (actually, I'd love to see a discussion on this topic between you and our own aSolider). My whole point is that you and your "beliefs" are really no different than Christians and their "beliefs". You all read a book and start feeling all warm and fuzzy and get carried away with your "beliefs".

 

Don't worry ma man, you are still just as Armenian as Sasuntsi Davit.

 

I just hope we in this forum have made you think a little bit about WHY you are asking these questions. I think your true confusion is not whether you are Armenian or not ... but you just somehow need to affirm that the choice you made in switching to Islam somehow hasn't made you abandon who you really are. In a sense, I think it's is healthy you are asking questions but I do think you need to ask the more fundamental questions first and not skip over them with simple answers like "oh that's just my belief".

Sip

ًIslam is the universal religion.

Christianity is universal in its message, but Islam is universal both in its message AND in its practical implications.

X is a Christian Armenian and Y is a Christian Arab.

Will X identify with Y based on the shared religion? I am talking about what is usually the norm, and not about exceptions.

But, in the case of Muslims (and when I say Muslims I do not mean Muslims "in name", but in practice) :

X is a Muslim Armenian and Y is a Muslim Arab.

Will I identify with a Muslim Arab? YES.

Will I also identify with a Christian Armenian? YES.

A Muslim is by default my brother, regardless of what nationality he is. Do you find a similar "universality" in Christianity? In Christianity you have invisible (I'm not talking about real borders on maps) borders preventing people from identifying with each other in the same way as Muslims do. So, Islam is the religion of universality and peace. And those who will have a problem with the latter reference (i.e. the peaceful nature of calling people to accept Islam), I urge you to read Sura (chapter) Al Baqara (2), Aya (verse) 256 in the Qur'an,

لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِن بِاللّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىَ لاَ انفِصَامَ لَهَا وَاللّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ

 

"la ikraha fil din" -- there is no compulsion in religion.

 

Now where do Turks fit into this?

As I mentioned above, when I talk about Muslims, I am not talking about all those who are Muslim "on paper". In Islam there is no such thing as Muslim "on paper". That is something that people have come up with because they do not want to bother themselves with the daily prayers, the fasting, etc., and more importantly the idea of doing good and enjoining evil and at the same time they do not want to feel guilty about it.

The Turks , Saudi Arabians, Afghans, and other groups here and there, are not "Muslims". They only fall into the category of "Muslims on paper". I mentioned Saudi Arabia and Taliban in my reply in Arabic to Johanness. I said that Islam is ONE, but there are "many" faces to it and unfortunately they distort the real face of Islam. Do people judge Islam based on the good deeds of Muslims (or at least the fact that they do not do bad deeds), or do they judge it based on the criminal behavior of some "Muslims on paper", like the "Sheikh" Bin Laden who has somehow, I do not know how, given himself the right to issue fatawa??? Have you ever asked yourself this question? Why do people view Islam based on the bad deeds and not the good deeds? Should I base my views of Christianity on what the Americans are doing? Or on the silence of the Europeans when the Israelis were massacring thousands of civilians only this past summer, in Lebanon? Should I base my views on the people cheering for these massacres of Lebanese and Iraqis "in revenge" for the massacre of thousands of Americans on 9/11? What makes them any better than Bin Laden? And so should I say that Christianity is a terrorist religion? Also, should I say that it is so based on the fact that Christian Europeans massacred millions of Jews? Why does Europe and USA continue to call the acts of some nutcases "Islamofascism", and not Israel's actions as "Judeofascism", or the Holocaust as "Christian-fascism"? Why is it that based on the actions of Bin Laden or the Turks and Azeris, people insist that there is something inherently terrorist in Islam, and at the same time the same conclusions are not drawn based on the actions of Christians and Jews? Suppose that America's battle cry is not related to Christianity (though clearly USA portrays the fight as a clash of civilizations between Christian west and Muslim East) , why is it that people even frown upon the idea of someone calling Americans terrorists, when AMERICA is doing in Iraq and Palestine the things it is doing in the name of defending American values, American interests, American security, etc.? Why is it that every time a non-Muslim carries out a terrorist attack, everyone draws a sigh of relief , as if the attack itself does not matter as much as it matters WHO did it?? if a Muslim had carried out the Virginia Tech massacre, would it have been attributed to the "crazy" "mentally ill" person, or would it have been attributed to sinister "Islamofascist" forces out to destroy American / Christian values??? Why is it that every time a non-Muslim kills a Muslim, it is swept under the rug on the basis that the perpetrator was "mentally unstable" and that "it was an individual act" ?? Is Muslim life not worth as much as a Christian or Jewish life?

 

You said that my beliefs are no different than those of Christians. How do you know? Do you know what Islam is all about? There is more to Islam than those simple statements. Islam is not just a religion, it is an entire system. It is a system of organizing society, individual's affairs, individuals' relations with society, and these are just a few things I am mentioning. In Christianity all these things might exist, but they are not , by default, institutionalized. That the church historically has played that role, is another issue altogether. In Islam, the two go hand in hand BY DEFAULT.

 

As for my Armenianness, I am not, never was, and never will be "confused" about it. The question had to do not with what I think about my Armenianness (though it evolved into such a discussion), but what others thought of the idea of a "Muslim Armenian". At the end of the day no matter what people say, it will not turn me away from my identification as an Armenian. Sure, I might avoid being involved in Armenian events or associate myself with the Armenian community, but that is only because Armenian gossip travels faster than the speed of light, and because I have been told loud and clear that I am not welcome.

 

I appreciate your curiosity as to why I converted to Islam, and I am trying to explain to you as much as possible the reasons for it (given your -- I am guessing here -- lack of extensive knowledge about Islam and of what "a day in a Muslim person's life" looks like). I had not intended to go into a discussion of my own experience when I started this thread. I am always told that American/European-Armenians are very open minded and I hear things about how they often marry "odars", etc., so I thought maybe people here (assuming they ARE mostly living in USA/Europe) would have different views. Of course, I am not saying that when I posted this thread I had no "personal" reasons for doing it. Of course I did. I did hope to hear positive responses, but not because I wanted to reassure myself that I was Armenian, but only to offset the rejection that I have experienced in the Armenian community in Lebanon.

Edited May 27, 2007 by Sassun

[Armenak]

Sassun, is there much intermarriage between Maronites/Syriacs and Muslims? I don't think Armenians are the only ones who reject converts.

[Sassun]

One question.

Above we were talking about the language Islam and you inferred tht you pray or can pray in Armenian.

How do address God when praying in Armenian? Do you call Him Astouats or Allah?

Arpa, the prayer itself (Salat) is done in Arabic, but the statement of Niyya (intention) before the prayer, as well as the Duaa (supplication ) can be in your own language, and you can use whatever word in your language that denotes "Allah".

[Sassun]

Sassun, is there much intermarriage between Maronites/Syriacs and Muslims? I don't think Armenians are the only ones who reject converts.

Yes, many Maronites do marry Muslims.

[Dave]

Christianity never made me feel the way Islam made me feel. I cannot explain it other than by attributing it to the fact that Islam is the true religion.

 

Out here, religious sects (like Jehova's Wittnesses or Raelians) are having some success because people don't really know about Christianity. How much did you know about it? Did you ever read the Bible, or any excerpts from it, before converting to Islam? And hey, Islam is not "one" as you say (why does it even matter if it is). Muslims aren't united, especially these days. Irar ge pezzegden gor.

[Yervant1]

I was thinking it might perhaps be more the other way ... to get attention from the non muslims: As in "Look at the choice I have made. Accept me. Talk about me. Or if you don't accept me, then still talk about me." In the end, it really doesn't make sense to ever boast about one's religion. Why even proclaim it at all? A relationship with God is a very personal thing and should be kept as such. All this prancing around with various symbols, and facing a certain direction then sticking rear ends up in the air, making cross gestures, standing and kneeling etc etc etc are just meant to show off. I HIGHLY doubt an almighty God is at all interested with such "showmanship". What really matters is what is inside and how you live your life.

What you are saying is true for now, but my remark was for before conversion that he sought acceptance from muslims.

[Sassun]

Out here, religious sects (like Jehova's Wittnesses or Raelians) are having some success because people don't really know about Christianity. How much did you know about it? Did you ever read the Bible, or any excerpts from it, before converting to Islam? And hey, Islam is not "one" as you say (why does it even matter if it is). Muslims aren't united, especially these days. Irar ge pezzegden gor.

Dave

Yes, I know about Christianity ; I have studied it in school on a daily basis from kindergarten to grade 9 and also sat through daily morning church sessions...... and I have read the Bible. Both in Armenian and in English. Though that was some time back, and I do not remember most of the things I've read.

In fact, Bible classes were really one of my favorite subjects in school. I even remember some of the songs that we used to sing , we even had a stage performance about the birth of Jesus... We sang the song "yerek moker arevelken yegan" ... that's the only sentence I remember from that song, though...

 

But I did not know the "hayr mer" until much later, in grade 10, when I changed schools and went to an Armenian Orthodox school, where we did not have religion classes at that level anymore, but we had to say the hayr mer in the morning (I remember I was embarrassed that I did not know it... I pretended to be moving my mouth but I was in fact not saying anything )...

 

As for Islam -- yes, Islam is one. The Sunni-Shi'ite issue is not about the duality of Islam, it is about who would be the leader of the Muslim community after Prophet Muhammad. The Shi'ites insist Imam Ali was the legitimate successor, and they called themselves "Shiat Ali" , hence the word "Shi'i" (Shi'ite).

What is happening in Iraq is not to be taken as a measure by which to assess Islam. The events in Iraq are as far from Islam as anything can be. It has nothing to do with Islam but with the power struggle between Saudi Arabia/USA on the one hand & Iran on the other....

 

[Sassun]

What you are saying is true for now, but my remark was for before conversion that he sought acceptance from muslims.

Why would I have done that? Most of my friends before I became interested in Islam, were Armenians...

[Yervant1]

Yervant

It is not an idealistic youth oriented phase. I know that you find it hard to understand what would make someone convert. I have tried to explain it in terms of what I believe in, and not from the perspective of a non-believer or a non-practicing believer. Again, as a Christian or an atheist you might find it hard to understand. What for me is an undeniable truth, for you it might be something silly. I don't know how well you know Islam's teachings, but if you do not know much about it, it would be hard to understand what I am talking about. Remember, I have attended a Christian Armenian school all my life, at first an Evengelical one and then an Orthodox one. Both have emphasized hatred of Muslims and Islam. When I was younger, I used to -- literally -- be afraid of Muslims. This is how they were portrayed, as essentially evil and out to get me. Now, it didn't take long to realize that this was not the case. Because after all, I live in a country where more than half the population is Muslim, and at one point, no matter how much you live in a ghetto, you have to meet a Muslim and interact with him. The first time I went to "Muslim areas" , I felt I was in another world. I did not want to go there again. But after a while I felt that something kept pushing me to go there and see "what these people are all about". And to my "surprise", they turned out to be "normal" people, very friendly, and not the intolerant monsters I was taught to think of them. Anyway I wanted to learn more about Islam, and I started doing so. It is difficult to do teach oneself, because the language of the Qur'an, Nahj al-Balagha, etc. is more or less "higher Arabic". Anyway, I never thought, at the time, that I'd convert. It was just out of curiosity. Still, when I read the Qur'an, I had a strange feeling. Every time I read it, I appreciated it even more, and became more and more attached to it. I did not , of course, announce my interest at the time to any of my (Armenian) friends. But you know, my friends did have an impact on me. They continued to talk negatively about Muslims and Islam, and to use "Turk" and "Muslim" interchangeably. In front of me. It truly angered me and made me feel more and more alienated from them. It was as if they were hurting me. At one point I felt the urge to tell them what was on my mind, but didn't, because I thought, "not yet". It was important not to spill the beans before embarking on the commitment of a lifetime (which is what Islam is). My parents of course knew. At first, they were against it, and they used to also hate Muslims and stereotype them. But I used to argue with them about it, and tell them that you cannot paint everyone with the same brush. Anyway, eventually, after a very long time they gradually started to open up about this issue, and I used to tell them about whatever I had read and learned... and they started showing a lot of interest too. I started making Muslim friends, and it so happened that they were mostly Shi'ites. They taught me some of the more practical aspects of Islam... (By the way I'm talking about years here and not days or months).

And then I converted...

Well, it was the best feeling , ever.

 

Christianity never made me feel the way Islam made me feel. I cannot explain it other than by attributing it to the fact that Islam is the true religion.

 

My friends, before I converted, were mostly Armenian (though gradually I started making Muslim friends as I stated above). Although they were noticing that "something" kept changing in me over the months and years, they never grasped what it was all about, so when I did tell them that I had converted, they thought I was joking... then, after I assured them that I was not joking, they told me what many here have told me, that I am a traitor. I kept reminding them that MONTE MELKONIAN was still my hero, and that I still consider myself 100% Armenian, but it was of no use. I knew they hated Muslims but I never expected they would treat an Armenian the way they did. They asked me to leave. So I left. I do not have any Armenian friends now. My friends are mostly Muslims and some Arab Christians.

 

Has my conversion changed me? Yes, to the better. Both spiritually and in my daily actions and thoughts. But have I completely ceased to be the person I was? Or stopped feeling Armenian? Listen, they tried to push me away because they wanted to use their friendship as a card to make me change my mind about Islam. But they failed. Now, the ones saying I am a traitor and who know I will remain Muslim no matter what they say, are trying to push me away from my Armenian identity. They will also fail. I used to go to April 24 marches, up till my conversion. Now I wish I could go, but I do not think I would be welcome. I sit at home and watch Armenian TV (H1) or listen to "Vana Tsayn". To the person who said it should not be about showing off: religion/faith is not about showing off. But is nationalism about showing off? Should it be? What matters is what is in one's heart, no matter who accuses me of being a traitor, even if it is the whole universe, God knows what is in my mind and heart, and He is the Ultimate Judge. Does it hurt to be pushed away in this manner? Yes, more than you think it does. Yes, it was a conscious decision on my part to convert. I accept the full consequences of my act. But does it make it right what people are doing?

 

Am I less Armenian than you? Than ANY of you?

Revise your consciences and then answer.

Sassun I attended the same schools that you attended in Lebanon and I didn't see that Muslim hatred that you are talking about. Don't forget that those who attack Islam in reality is not attacking Islam but Turks as you know the reasons why? When Armenians in Lebanon say Dajik they mean Turks and not Muslims, you said this yourself that your friends use Islam and Turks interchangeably because by Islam they mean Turk. I think you are exaggerating a bit that Christians are more hatefull than Muslims, the hatefull people are on both sides and not one side or the other. You sound everything about Islam is good and everything about Christianity is bad, Sip told you already that the other side is saying the opposite so who is right? and who is wrong?

You are forgetting one thing which is Armenian and Muslim are like oil and water they don't mix no matter how hard you try, and one of them has to give in. You are also mixing religion and politics, yes there are some injustices happening in there and both sides are using religion to bolster their side but you are only mentioning one side and ignoring the other (Muslim side).

I will tell you again no matter what you say that this is a phase and it will pass. You are young and think that you can correct all the injustices of the world by your conversion protest and claim that one man made religion is better than the other does not hold water, they are all based on morals more or less and you can be that without any changes and losing all that which is dear to you.

I'll ask the same question that you did not answer if one day you decide to convert back will you be allowed to do so?

 

[Yervant1]

Why would I have done that? Most of my friends before I became interested in Islam, were Armenians...

Now that you are on the other side, you want acceptance from this side. You want the best of both worlds but in real life it's somewhat difficult.

[Sassun]

Yervant, which schools would those be ? Are you saying there is no Muslim hatred? What about "ailazk" this "ailazk" that...? What about the portrayal of Armenian struggle as one that is essentially against "The Muslims " ? Don't you remember "hayots badmootyoon" classes? And if they really mean Turks, why don't they say Turks , and instead say Muslims ?

 

I did not say that Christianity is bad, let alone everything about Christianity being bad. I think you are misinterpreting my replies... I am criticizing the logic of blaming religions for the actions of fanatics who rally people around their cause in its name, including the way they rallied the Turks and Kurds to perpetrate the Armenian Genocide. Religion (all religions) are innocent from the distortions of fanatics.

 

Why is Armenian and Muslim like oil and water?

So what am I ?

You're talking to me, are you not? So tell me "what" you think I am? Am I Muslim or am I Armenian? Why can't I be both?

Don't I identify as both? What is there that is not mixing ? I do not understand when you people say this , I think that for you it is difficult to imagine a Muslim Armenian , because the image of a Muslim has been associated with certain races/ethnicities , mostly Arabs (and Turks), and so you view it as something that "doesn't go " with Armenian lifestyle. Why? So what am I ? what is so impossible about this ? when you talk about "mixing" , you are talking about identity and identity can be changed to accommodate certain things. So you are saying that I am not really a Muslim but that I THINK I am ? or that I am not really Armenian ? Either of the two, because that is the only way your argument that the two do not mix will work ...

 

Why do I have to lose all that is dear to me? Why is it that you cannot accept someone, when that person is far more connected to his Armenian identity than many Christian Armenians ? I am not talking about Armenians having to convert to Islam en masse , I am talking about individual cases. Why is it so hard to accept me ? I do not want anything other than that.. but I am not willing to give up on Islam to recover that sense of belonging. All you have to do is accept, nothing more is required of you. What if I can contribute to Armenian causes , and by alienating me you are destroying an asset of the Armenian nation ? Or do you think I am already "lost" beyond any hope for recovery ?

Let us put aside for a second your views about organized religion (whether or not it holds water, etc.) , we are talking here about an individual, someone who does not become a robot after becoming religious... we are talking about an individual who has feelings, and who also identifies with things beyond his religion, like nationality. Does it matter how we pray , on say April 24 ? you can make the sign of the cross and say the hayr mer and so on, and what about me, can't I pray as a Muslim ? You are telling me that as a Muslim I cannot possibly have real feelings towards what happened to my people , my family ? Why do you want to push me into a black and white / either with us or against us position of decision making ? i do not want to choose between the two, because I want both. and if I wont be accepted by both sides, then I will stick to the side that accepts me, even though in my heart I will always be attached to my homeland and people, no matter how bitter i feel because they pushed me away.

 

No, I do not wish to "convert back", nor can I.

Edited May 27, 2007 by Sassun

[Yervant1]

Yervant, which schools would those be ? Are you saying there is no Muslim hatred? What about "ailazk" this "ailazk" that...? What about the portrayal of Armenian struggle as one that is essentially against "The Muslims " ? Don't you remember "hayots badmootyoon" classes? And if they really mean Turks, why don't they say Turks , and instead say Muslims ?

 

I did not say that Christianity is bad, let alone everything about Christianity being bad. I think you are misinterpreting my replies... I am criticizing the logic of blaming religions for the actions of fanatics who rally people around their cause in its name, including the way they rallied the Turks and Kurds to perpetrate the Armenian Genocide. Religion (all religions) are innocent from the distortions of fanatics.

 

Why is Armenian and Muslim like oil and water?

So what am I ?

You're talking to me, are you not? So tell me "what" you think I am? Am I Muslim or am I Armenian? Why can't I be both?

Don't I identify as both? What is there that is not mixing ? I do not understand when you people say this , I think that for you it is difficult to imagine a Muslim Armenian , because the image of a Muslim has been associated with certain races/ethnicities , mostly Arabs (and Turks), and so you view it as something that "doesn't go " with Armenian lifestyle. Why? So what am I ? what is so impossible about this ? when you talk about "mixing" , you are talking about identity and identity can be changed to accommodate certain things. So you are saying that I am not really a Muslim but that I THINK I am ? or that I am not really Armenian ? Either of the two, because that is the only way your argument that the two do not mix will work ...

 

Why do I have to lose all that is dear to me? Why is it that you cannot accept someone, when that person is far more connected to his Armenian identity than many Christian Armenians ? I am not talking about Armenians having to convert to Islam en masse , I am talking about individual cases. Why is it so hard to accept me ? I do not want anything other than that.. but I am not willing to give up on Islam to recover that sense of belonging. All you have to do is accept, nothing more is required of you. What if I can contribute to Armenian causes , and by alienating me you are destroying an asset of the Armenian nation ? Or do you think I am already "lost" beyond any hope for recovery ?

Let us put aside for a second your views about organized religion (whether or not it holds water, etc.) , we are talking here about an individual, someone who does not become a robot after becoming religious... we are talking about an individual who has feelings, and who also identifies with things beyond his religion, like nationality. Does it matter how we pray , on say April 24 ? you can make the sign of the cross and say the hayr mer and so on, and what about me, can't I pray as a Muslim ? You are telling me that as a Muslim I cannot possibly have real feelings towards what happened to my people , my family ? Why do you want to push me into a black and white / either with us or against us position of decision making ? i do not want to choose between the two, because I want both. and if I wont be accepted by both sides, then I will stick to the side that accepts me, even though in my heart I will always be attached to my homeland and people, no matter how bitter i feel because they pushed me away.

 

No, I do not wish to "convert back", nor can I.

Good luck to you!!!!!!!

[Sassun]

Good luck to you!!!!!!!

I wrote that long reply and asked all those questions, trying to really understand where you are coming from, and this is what I get...?

 

Alright, thanks for the 'wish', but I think you may keep it.

[Sassun]

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/8/80/Bluemosqueyerev.jpg

This mosque in Yerevan , has anyone been there ? Anyone seen it ?

Who is it for ? Does anyone go there ? Who built it ?

Are they able to have the athan out loud or they are not allowed ?

Edited May 27, 2007 by Sassun

[Էլիա]

Well, Sassun, you keep talking about how Islam was hated in your schools in Lebanon (which doesn't even make sense already, since Islam is Lebanon's state religion, and would probably not let that happen), but don't you understand the plausible possibility that they are using the term "Muslims" instead of "Turks", because of how extremely Islam was used against Armenians before the genocide, and how the Turks' belief in Islam caused the genocide, and how this is still causing the Turks to think that Armenians are "infidels"? Like how Yervant said, they weren't really reffering to Islam (generally), but against Turks, who used Islam agains them, just because they were Christian. So, if they're talking about Muslims like that, they're really talking about Turks, because of their extremist view of Islam and "non-Muslims".

[Էլիա]

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/8/80/Bluemosqueyerev.jpg

This mosque in Yerevan , has anyone been there ? Anyone seen it ?

Who is it for ? Does anyone go there ? Who built it ?

Are they able to have the athan out loud or they are not allowed ?

Well, the builders/users of this mosque don't necessarily have to be Armenian, you know. There aren't only Armenians in Yerevan. And even if it was built by Armenians (which it probably was), it's because Armenians aren't racist against other religions, unlike the extremist Turks.

 

[Sassun]

since Islam is Lebanon's state religion

You are wrong... it is not.

 

Alright suppose you are right about the reason they use Turk and Muslim interchangeably.

 

So what about a Muslim Armenian ? I would think you would not categorize him as an enemy the way you think of Turks. But people called me, or implied that I was, a traitor.

 

Anyway, I guess you do not want to see what I am trying to say. It makes no sense. You treat me as if I am a Turk and then say you have nothing against Muslims. So if you have nothing against Muslims, and if you consider Armenians as your fellow people, then doesn't it mean you would also accept me?

[Sassun]

It is ironic, though, that you would probably treat non-Armenian Muslims far more courteously than a Muslim Armenian.

 

What a shame.

[Էլիա]

You are wrong... it is not.

 

Alright suppose you are right about the reason they use Turk and Muslim interchangeably.

 

So what about a Muslim Armenian ? I would think you would not categorize him as an enemy the way you think of Turks. But people called me, or implied that I was, a traitor.

 

Anyway, I guess you do not want to see what I am trying to say. It makes no sense. You treat me as if I am a Turk and then say you have nothing against Muslims. So if you have nothing against Muslims, and if you consider Armenians as your fellow people, then doesn't it mean you would also accept me?

I'm sorry about what I said earlier, but I just snapped from surprise. I don't have anything against you. It's just hard to accept something like this right away, that's all.

[Sassun]

I'm sorry about what I said earlier, but I just snapped from surprise. I don't have anything against you. It's just hard to accept something like this right away, that's all.

Thanks. In Arabic there is a saying, "al i'tirafu bil khata'i fadila". It means, admitting a mistake is a virtue.

 

I understand that it is not easy to accept, and also shocking, but I think and hope that people would realize that we need to base our sense of belonging on our common national and linguistic identity irrespective of religious beliefs (Islam, Orthodox/Evangelical/Catholic Christianity, etc.), belonging ("on paper"), or practices (Orthodox mass, Evangelical prayer, etc.)...

I know that you probably have not yet changed your mind. Well, it does not have to happen overnight. But the important thing is to encourage people to at least think a bit about it, and to revise their conscience -- something I have failed to do in 'real life', unfortunately.

 

If you want to know more about Islam (I'm not trying to convert you ... ) or have any questions, feel free to ask here.