"armenian Jews"

[nairi]

No, I'm not talking about Jews who live in Armenia. Neither is this thread intended to deliberately piss off Arpa.

 

I'm talking about Armenians who were at some point or another confused with Jews and called "Armenian Jews."

 

If you have read Michael J. Arlen's Passage to Ararat, you'll know what I'm talking about. You will remember Sarkis, who receives Arlen Jr. and his wife in Armenia and introduces himself as their friend. You'll also remember that Sarkis once worked as a clerk for the English during WWII in Egypt before embarking to Soviet Armenia. He is also the one who falls in love with his superior's daughter and is therefore no longer welcome. Those of you who remember this passage will also remember Sarkis's recollection of when he briefly returns to Mr. Peterson's house and finds his daughter very upset and calling Sarkis "'Jew' and sometimes 'Armenian' and sometimes both--'Armenian Jew.'" Sarkis continues: "It's funny--I have often heard the English use that expression, although I think it is impossible. Catholic Protestant!" (pp. 108-109, Hungry Mind Press, 1996)

 

A little over fifty-five years before Arlen Jr. recounted his quest for his Armenian roots in Passage to Ararat, Michael Arlen Sr., in The London Venture, recalled a scene during his boarding-school years, when a fellow student, Marsden, calls him an Armenian Jew as a response to being kicked out from a study group by the narrator, Dikran. Arlen, or Dikran, writes:

 

"...one tea-time I distinctly heard a murmur resembling "Armenian Jew" escape from Marsden's lips; that, of course, couldn't be borne, and I couldn't then explain to him that there was no such person as an Armenian Jew for I wasn't myself quite certain about it--all I knew was that I wasn't a Jew, and it wasn't Marsden who was going to call me one in vain." (pp. 128-129, Doran, 1920)

 

There is no evidence that this passage is autobiographical, nevertheless, Arlen Sr. seems to suggest that the label "Armenian Jew" for Armenians was not so uncommon in England at the beginning of the twentieh century. Interestingly, I have not been able to find this designation anywhere else but in Passage to Ararat and The London Venture. Perhaps I have not been looking hard enough.

 

I do want to pinpoint here that Arlen Sr. was not anti-semetic, before he is misinterpreted as being one. His main concern in his early literary career, and recurring throughout his life, was to clear stereotypes and misinformation about Armenians to the outside world, and with that to educate the world about Armenians. In terms of Jews, Arlen Sr. made comparisons with Armenians on a few occasions, including in his very first published essay in 1916 for Ararat: A Searchlight on Armenia, a London-based Armenian perodical, in which he writes a view that would be echoed in his later writings on Jews:

 

"Because of a mere coincidence in the shape of their noses and the colour or curls of their hair, it is not safe to presume that an Armenian is a Jew, or vice versa, or that they are even of the same branch. Both would probably feel insulted, though neither of course has the faintest right to be." (p. 22, Ararat, 4:37 (London: July, 1916))

[gamavor]

Stereotyping! That is it. But it doesn't come in an empty place. Many Armenian merchants copied the ways of the Jews and/or vice-verse.

 

Armenians are one of the few Christian nations that remined outside of the realm of the most dominant religious denominations (that is by enlarge - of course I'm aware of Armeniam Caholics, Evangelicals and Byzantine Orthodox). Just like the Jews we are one of a kind!

 

As to physical features those that were around us and that call us "brothers", i.e. Greeks, Persians and some of the Caucasus ethnicities cannot make a mistake. They know us. For the Westerners it is hard to make a difference. In the North European countries, anyone with dark eyes and hair was a Jew. These are what they have seen. One of my professors upon his arrival back from USA told me that everywhere he went, they took him for a Jew. The guy is Bulgarian with no Jewish ancestry.

[Arpa]

I had a teacher who had worked as a clerk and interpreter with the British during WWII. Those brit-heads could not understand the concept of Armenian, and since like Gamavor says, up to that point the only middle easterns they knew.... Every time he said he was Armenian they would ask; “Huh! What is that, some kind of Jew?”

I must correct something I said above.

That the only middle easterners they had seen….

Many British had seen me-s and beyond, but only those who had traveled to those countries or stationed there. What I meant was middle easterners in the country Britain itself. Of course now it is different as some British cities have majority of easterners. Even then they may all be labeled as Arabs or Paki-s regardless. And now they may mistake us for Pakistani.

Edited July 27, 2006 by Arpa

[gamavor]

Actually in more than one way we are antipodes with the Jews in our uniqueness.

 

We both have distinct scripts that do not resemble anyone else. Well in our case it resembles but only for the trained eye. They (Jews) write from right to left, we write from left to write. They are Semitic, we are Aryan, they are Southerners by our standards, and we are Northerners. They like it hot. We like it cold. They circumcise, we don't (oops, where is Hagarag:)).

We are Christian, they are not. They have some unique sectarianism amongst themselves, we have unique provincialism amongst ourselves. We had a great kingdom on three seas, theirs was short lived and small.

 

I can go on and on... and at the end it will be all about sex again!

Edited July 27, 2006 by gamavor

[Zartonk]

I can go on and on... and at the end it will be all about sex again!

 

[Eurocentric]

I had a teacher who had worked as a clerk and interpreter with the British during WWII. Those brit-heads could not understand the concept of Armenian, and since like Gamavor says, up to that point the only middle easterns they knew.... Every time he said he was Armenian they would ask; “Huh! What is that, some kind of Jew?”

I must correct something I said above.

That the only middle easterners they had seen….

Many British had seen me-s and beyond, but only those who had traveled to those countries or stationed there. What I meant was middle easterners in the country Britain itself. Of course now it is different as some British cities have majority of easterners. Even then they may all be labeled as Arabs or Paki-s regardless. And now they may mistake us for Pakistani.

 

lol

 

Anyone that can be mistaken for a Paki, even by a dumb limey bastard cannot be a typical Armenian. Perhaps a Christianized Kurd or something.

[kakachik77]

the thing is I am so freaking tired of explaining everyone who Armenians are. I normally just cut it short to Russian in most cases as I am Eastern Armenian and have Russian accent when speaking English.

Is anybody as frustrated as I am?

Edited July 27, 2006 by kakachik77

[nairi]

the thing is I am so freaking tired of explaining everyone who Armenians are. I normally just cut it short to Russian in most cases as I am Eastern Armenian and have Russian accent when speaking English.

Is anybody as frustrated as I am?

 

You don't blame them, do you? That's the most important thing: to realize that it's our own fault that the rest of the world is ignorant of us. Arlen Sr. warned us of this as early as 1916.

 

As for feeling frustrated, no, I don't feel frustrated. I do not know every small nation, country, tribe, or religion in the world either. I barely know my countries around the world, let alone their capitals. In fact, believe it or not, many Europeans think New York is the capital of America.. and then they call Americans ignorant of Europe. The point is that if you don't know it all then you should also not feel frustrated when someone else doesn't know either.

 

On the other hand, Armenia is gradually becoming better known in Europe, mostly because of European Championships in sports, events like the Eurovision Song Festival, and news reports on the genocide.

[Zartonk]

the thing is I am so freaking tired of explaining everyone who Armenians are. I normally just cut it short to Russian in most cases as I am Eastern Armenian and have Russian accent when speaking English.

Is anybody as frustrated as I am?

 

It began as frustration and even lead it's way into a feelings of loss, alienation and inferority. As a matter of fact, I pulled the Russian thing in my early days too (and to my not-so-great surprise, it still got blank stares a few times). But as time went by and the more people I met, I realized that enough people who need to know, know. Armenia, contrary to the general reaction, is not an obscure place to the educated. One has to also remember that there are a number of people who concider Iroquis the national language of Iraq, London a country in Paris next to Europe and NYC s THEIR own capital. So it's not as bad as it may seem.

[Boghos]

But as time went by and the more people I met, I realized that enough people who need to know, know. Armenia, contrary to the general reaction, is not an obscure place to the educated.

 

 

Even though this sounds like a tautology it is right. I almost never had a problem, most often in the US, in the hinterland, people ignore what an Armenian is (and most other things).

[Iran Forever]

the thing is I am so freaking tired of explaining everyone who Armenians are. I normally just cut it short to Russian in most cases as I am Eastern Armenian and have Russian accent when speaking English.

Is anybody as frustrated as I am?

 

You know I just realized that almost ALL Armenians speak a second language in addition to their own...Iranian Armenians speak Persian as a second language, Armenia's Armenians Russian, Lebanon's Armenians Arabic, Romania's small Armenian community Romanian, "Turkey's" Armenians Turkish, and the list could go on. Not too many nationalities in the world can claim that ALL their citizens are bilingual. Also Armenians have their very own script, like Georgians, etc.

[Hellektor]

Somebody said:

Roses are red, violets are bluish

If it were not for Jesus we'd all be Jewish...

 

It's all in your head. Race is irrelevant. You are what you believe you are.

 

There's more Armenian blood in the veins of fake "Azeris" than they might want to believe, but they hate the guts of the Armenians and can't refrain from killing Armenians in their sleep or disemboweling pregnant Armenian women in maternity wards...

Edited August 6, 2006 by Hellektor

[Sarduri]

if you ever find any jewish blood in u, blameit on king tigran. he took 10000 jews from palestine and took them to armenia. overtime, armenians and jews mixed.

[Arpa]

if you ever find any jewish blood in u, blameit on king tigran. he took 10000 jews from palestine and took them to armenia. overtime, armenians and jews mixed.

We have gone over this BS numerous times.

Can we stop this kovankaka once and for all?

So its is 10,000, not 9,999?

Were you there? Did you interview each and every one of those ten thousand to see what ethnicity they were and what language they spoke?

OK, we admit that Tigran II conquered all the lands between Tigranakert and TelAviv. Let’s look at the map of today, and let us look at the maps of the era and see how many other people lived between Tigranakert and TelAviv. So Tigran brought 10,000 Jews? Were they all Jews? Did he interview them to see that they were indeed Jews? No Assyrians? No Arameans? No Phoenicians? No Philistines? No Amalekites? No Nabateans?

Did Khorenatsi have the map of the area at his fingertips as we do today? Or was he just expressing the wishes of his new fangled so called Christian sponsors like bishops and Catholicoi of the time whose main purpose was to find a link between us and the so called “chosen people”? A desperate attempt to find a raison d’etre for our very existence by linking us to the Biblical “chosen people”.

“Chosen people”? Chosen for what ? To collaborate with the yet to come Turk to blow all of our claims to the land?

Can we get a life? Can we forget that there even is such a thing as a Jew? Have you been following the latest? Do you really believe that they will be able to hold to what they have stolen from the keepers of the land for the last 2000 years when they were chasing that pot of gold in places like Spain, Germany, Poland, Russia …..?

Can we have a life without bringing the Jew into out history and legacy?

So. In conclusion. Did you personally interview those 10,000 to see if they were indeed Jews?

Why don’t we see even a word in their so called history about Tigran, his exploits and moving 10,000 Jews to Armenia? Is not their so called history, that book of lies the “gospel truth”? So, where is that “gospel truth” about Tigran’s exploits? Has any Jew, anytime even say one word about that period of “history/schmistory”? Has any Jew, anytime even say a word about Armenian Jewish kinship? If their “history/schmiistory” is a figment of one’s imagination , whose figment of imagination is OUR “history“?

Can we treat history as a science rather than a collection of fables?

Wait till the Turks get a hold of that 10,000 imported Jews and blow our entire history to pieces!!!

 

OH! Btw, Sarduri welcome!

[phantom22]

Bernard Lewis states in one of his books that Tigran was a. Jew. If my memory serves me right he went on to say that Tigran transported alarge number of Jews to his capital.

 

Numerous Jewish websites mention that Tigran transported Jews to Tigranakert

 

Get your fingers clicking on your computer Arpa before you make your comments.

 

[quote name='Arpa' date='Aug 25 2006, 10:36 PM' post='177443' .

 

 

We have gone over this BS numerous times.

Can we stop this kovankaka once and for all?

So its is 10,000, not 9,999?

Were you there? Did you interview each and every one of those ten thousand to see what ethnicity they were and what language they spoke?

OK, we admit that Tigran II conquered all the lands between Tigranakert and TelAviv. Let’s look at the map of today, and let us look at the maps of the era and see how many other people lived between Tigranakert and TelAviv. So Tigran brought 10,000 Jews? Were they all Jews? Did he interview them to see that they were indeed Jews? No Assyrians? No Arameans? No Phoenicians? No Philistines? No Amalekites? No Nabateans?

Did Khorenatsi have the map of the area at his fingertips as we do today? Or was he just expressing the wishes of his new fangled so called Christian sponsors like bishops and Catholicoi of the time whose main purpose was to find a link between us and the so called “chosen people”? A desperate attempt to find a raison d’etre for our very existence by linking us to the Biblical “chosen people”.

“Chosen people”? Chosen for what ? To collaborate with the yet to come Turk to blow all of our claims to the land?

Can we get a life? Can we forget that there even is such a thing as a Jew? Have you been following the latest? Do you really believe that they will be able to hold to what they have stolen from the keepers of the land for the last 2000 years when they were chasing that pot of gold in places like Spain, Germany, Poland, Russia …..?

Can we have a life without bringing the Jew into out history and legacy?

So. In conclusion. Did you personally interview those 10,000 to see if they were indeed Jews?

Why don’t we see even a word in their so called history about Tigran, his exploits and moving 10,000 Jews to Armenia? Is not their so called history, that book of lies the “gospel truth”? So, where is that “gospel truth” about Tigran’s exploits? Has any Jew, anytime even say one word about that period of “history/schmistory”? Has any Jew, anytime even say a word about Armenian Jewish kinship? If their “history/schmiistory” is a figment of one’s imagination , whose figment of imagination is OUR “history“?

Can we treat history as a science rather than a collection of fables?

Wait till the Turks get a hold of that 10,000 imported Jews and blow our entire history to pieces!!!

 

OH! Btw, Sarduri welcome!

Edited August 26, 2006 by phantom22

[ED]

Hagarag what you is very incorect

 

firstly there is no evidance Tigran the Great was a Jew, I like to see the source of that claim

most widly and acurate evidance you can find is, by reading Khorenatsi

second, when Tigran who brought not 10 but 90 thousend Jews from Palestine there was no Tigranakert, he brought hebrew slaves spesificaly for the constraction of Tigranakert hence 90% of the inhabitance at that time in the Capital was hebrew (Jew) slaves

 

I would agree, logiclay speaking! at some point in time those jews blended in with Armenians and became Armenian. that is very smal number compair to what Armenian population was at that time, some historians claim Armenians who prospored under Tigran became numeraticly very large 10 to 15 million at that time in greater Armenia (not the conqoured lands included)

 

acording to Khorenatsi, Tigran also brought with him two hebrew woriers who fought against him, the names were Shambat (Sembat) and Bagarat (Bagrat) who later gave rise to Bagratuni dinasty some 600-800 years later, and Bagration in Geargia

 

and dont forget Jews themslfs have the most tainted blood among races in this world, unlike jews, we Armenians accept and what most Nationalities do also, is some caracteristics, phisical fetures, as belonging to the race

 

I never saw so diveresed race as Jews, there are even jew hemalaians high in Tibet who practice jewdaismby the way being jew is all you have to do is convert to jewdaism like woopy goldberg and liz taylor, a black and english.

Edited August 26, 2006 by Edward

[Sarduri]

okay, there may have been other races, but jews were most dominant.

[ED]

okay, there may have been other races, but jews were most dominant.

 

 

elaborate please of how jews were dominant?

[gamavor]

Bernard Lewis states

 

Bernard Lewis is one of those JEWS that said that Armenian genocide is a fabrication. For nearly 100 years JEWISH PROPAGANDA mashine worked in two main directions.

 

1. Armenians are Jews, hence their suffering is our suffering. (Meaning, you don't need to recognize anything since you already recognized our suffering from the Nazis, because Turks are our brothers and friends.

 

2. Second line of propaganda was: OK, Armenians are not Jews, but the Genocide never happened, because Turks are our friends and brothers and as you all know our friends and brothers are not capable of such attrocities.

 

Blame Hitler for this!

[Sarduri]

elaborate please of how jews were dominant?

 

historians recorded it!!!!!!!!

[Arpa]

okay, there may have been other races, but jews were most dominant.

 

Bernard Lewis states in one of his books that Tigran was a. Jew. If my memory serves me right he went on to say that Tigran transported alarge number of Jews to his capital.

 

Numerous Jewish websites mention that Tigran transported Jews to Tigranakert

 

Get your fingers clicking on your computer Arpa before you make your comments.

Yeah, yeah. Our own village idiot, our very own wisest Khoja has spoken, read-passed gas, again. And now that super Jew Bernard is our newly discovered histriographer, our latter day Khorenatsi?

You click your fingers and learn.

And now we come to our in house geographer and demographer, Sarduri;

okay, there may have been other races, but jews were most dominant.

I don’t know where you get your figures from. If it is the Bible, please read again and see what kind of majority they were then (see map below), and tell us what kind of majority they are now. See table below. The highest concentration of Jew in the wordl is, no not in Israel or Palestine, the USA, where, even by the most generous estimates they number about 5 million. Now tell us what kind of dominant majority that is in a country of over 300 million. 1.5 %?? Some dominant majority that is. At this point there are more muslims in America than there are Jews. Now, please tell us again when and where have they been a dominant majority. During Tigran’s times? Look at the map again. And plese search and survey other maps of the era of Tigran.

Do you see that even now they, with their about 4 million Jewish population in their own land they are a mere 2% in the Middle East.

 

Middle East Internet Usage and Population Statistics

MIDDLE EAST Population( 2006 Est. )

Bahrain 723,039

Iran 69,442,905

Iraq 26,628,187

Israel 7,109,929

Jordan 5,282,558

Kuwait 2,630,775

Lebanon 4,509,678

Oman 2,424,422

Palestine(West Bk.) 3,259,363

Qatar 795,585

Saudi Arabia 26,000,000

Syria 19,046,520

United Arab Emirates 3,870,936

Yemen 20,764,630

TOTAL Middle East 190,084,161

Map ME

 

http://www.infoplease.com/atlas/middleeast.html

 

Someone picked up on my mention of Tigranakert and TelAviv (hi Ed) which was only a poetic license, note the T‘s. I could have said (note the Y’s)Yerevan and Yahudistan. We know that Tigranakert was built after that yet the assumption that those ten thousand Jews built the city is even smellier BS than the assumption that they also built the Pyramids. When did the Jews become builders? Look around you and see how many Jews are in the construction business. Not to forget their recent “CONSTRUCTION” in Beirut and Lebanon.

Edited August 26, 2006 by Arpa

[Arpa]

historians recorded it!!!!!!!!

And pray tell us who exactly those “historians” are.

Are they the same “historians” who wrote that the universe was created in 6 days, that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it? Or are those historians known also as Nostradamus and that grass head also known as John of the Book of Revelation? Speaking of which, our crack historians, those other crack head born again fundamental Christians were holding special prayer sessions during that conflagration over Lebanon to expedite the end of the world as prophesied by those other crack head so called historian prophets.

So, you say historians have recorded it? Can we have a few samples?

If one were to say that they were a “dominant” majority then after the exodus, when they left Egypt, the latter would be a desert devoid of inhabitants except for the Pharaoh and his immediate family?

I would sincerely like to know which history books to read, since, it seems I may have missed the real sources of world history.

And, dear Sarduri. You disappoint me. Judging from your choise of a screen name I thought you were less naive than this.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Arpa

[Aratta-Kingdom]

"Are they the same “historians” who wrote that the universe was created in 6 days, that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it? Or are those historians known also as Nostradamus..."

 

 

You don't expect an answer from him, do you? Phantom22 aka Nostradamus from ArmenianCafe aka...[...], has been telling the same fairy tale to anyone who would listen for years already. Not a single time he could back up his claim with solid facts.

Edited August 27, 2006 by ArmoArmeN

[phantom22]

When documentation is given, you claim that it is to be disregarded because it has been reserached by Jews. When an Armenian such as the anthropologist Levon Yepiskoposyan, head of the Armenian Intitute of Man, is the researcher you claim that because he looks like a Jew and is working with Jews in London, that his findings are bogus. Whenever an Armenian ancient historian has claimed something you don't like, you claim that his statments are bogus and you find some reason why he would lie to the historical record.

 

Only the KAKA handed you by your Der Hayr and the so-called leaders of the community is what you buy.

 

 

"Are they the same “historians” who wrote that the universe was created in 6 days, that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it? Or are those historians known also as Nostradamus..."

You don't expect an answer from him, do you? Phantom22 aka Nostradamus from ArmenianCafe aka...[...], has been telling the same fairy tale to anyone who would listen for years already. Not a single time he could back up his claim with solid facts.

Edited August 27, 2006 by phantom22

[Aratta-Kingdom]

if you ever find any jewish blood in u, blameit on king tigran. he took 10000 jews from palestine and took them to armenia. overtime, armenians and jews mixed.

 

what a provocative comment you made. the jews who keep their identity in all parts of the world somehow got assimulated in armenia? wow why don't you instead talk about the 30,000 jews who came from russia to armenia escaping a persecution? the vast majority of the russian speakers in armenia were those same jews who have changed their names but still secretly practice judeism. Ruben Shugaryan, Paruyr Hayrikyan, and many others are the descendants of those armenian jews who keep their true identity in secret.