Sasun Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 One more question, if God created men, who created God? God has always existed? Heum.... I don't really buy that.... Think this way: in the phenomenal world we observe an endless chain of manifestations of cause and effect: everything is caused by something, every cause is an effect of some other cause. Then one would ask, what is the cause of all causes that is not an effect itself? We must conclude that whatever it is it can't be of this world where everything changes and is an effect of something. Then comes the idea of a transcendental cause - a cause which does not belong to the phenomenal world. The eternal and ever existing God is that transcendental cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 All the prophets are men. All the religious books are written by men (bible, qoran, torah etc.). Even though women are very active in religion, why God didn't pick a woman or inspire a woman to write such a book. What i'm getting at is that religion is man made. If God had created religion at least one woman should have been worthy of his attention. As for more women in religion than men, go to any church and count them you will find out. Even God is labeled as He, you know how absurd that is. There have been woman saints too. For example, St. Theresa of Avila was very advanced spiritually and has written books teaching her methods of prayer/meditation. There is a very great woman saint and a spiritual teacher in our times in India who represents the Divine Mother - mother aspect of God. Her name is Ammachi. There have been other woman religious figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Hello and thanks Ludwig. I think you understood my question perfectly well. Still, I'll rephrase if you like: in order to have a meaningful discussion, we need some clarity as to what we understand by the term "God". Do we mean a supreme personal being, distinct from the world and creator of the world, who, for example, "ghost-wrote" certain scriptures, "artificially inseminated" certain virgins, and whose offspring defied the laws of physics by walking on liquid surfaces and turning water into alcoholic beverage? Accordingly, a “believer” is a person who is convinced of the existence of such a supreme personal being, and of the truthfulness of the corresponding legend. Or do we rather mean “the Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists”, “the spirit manifest in the laws of the Universe”? In this case, a believer is someone who believes in the “spirit vastly superior to that of man”, but “cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation”. Happy now? When I mention God I am speaking of Christianity. I have had previous conversations when what a person understood as God and what I stated were two different meanings that is why I was asking for clarity. And if your definition of a believer is synonymous with the word Christian, then let’s state it as such. "Human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and can't really get rid of it." C.S. Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 sSebB make up your mind are you gonna quote Albert Einstein in for your defence or against. Several posts ago you quoted him, now you say you don't listen to him. I'd appreciate If you read my posts carefully. I never listened to him, I just gave a quote from him becuase Sip wasn't that fond of Bible quotes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 I'd appreciate If you read my posts carefully. I never listened to him, I just gave a quote from him becuase Sip wasn't that fond of Bible quotes sSebB you amaze me. Yu're hand is in the cookie jar and yu're saying I'm taking only one cookie. You are contradicting yourself as if that's not enough you tell me that I'm not reading yu're posts carefully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Yervant, don't be so closed minded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 sSebB you amaze me. Yu're hand is in the cookie jar and yu're saying I'm taking only one cookie. You are contradicting yourself as if that's not enough you tell me that I'm not reading yu're posts carefully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Dear Seb, with the utmost respect, can I be a little personal with you? To my understanding you are a teenager. And as I remember teenagers look for other teenagers, be it in person or on the air to talk about movies, blue jeans, school work, their favorite teacher and what not. What compels you to talk about religion incessantly? Yet, knowing that this is HyeForum, i.e Armenian forum, I don’t remember you talking about anything Armenian so far. In case you should wonder God and Jesus are not the sole property of the Armenians. Please forgive me for being so bold but I am kind of concerned, unless of course you intend to make a career of religion, like a pastor, priest or a missionary. Aren’t you interested in girls/boys,-whatever the case may be,-of your age? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Dear Seb, with the utmost respect, can I be a little personal with you? To my understanding you are a teenager. And as I remember teenagers look for other teenagers, be it in person or on the air to talk about movies, blue jeans, school work, their favorite teacher and what not. What compels you to talk about religion incessantly? Yet, knowing that this is HyeForum, i.e Armenian forum, I don’t remember you talking about anything Armenian so far. In case you should wonder God and Jesus are not the sole property of the Armenians. Please forgive me for being so bold but I am kind of concerned, unless of course you intend to make a career of religion, like a pastor, priest or a missionary. Aren’t you interested in girls/boys,-whatever the case may be,-of your age? Arpa I have a social life if that is what you are asking. The fact of the matter is that God is my life. All of my friends are God-loving Christians and we love to talk about God and go to Church, etc. I don't do it for any other reason. Armenian Forum, right you are. Is Christianity not part of the Armenian culture? Do you celebrate Vartanank, Arpa? or for that fact, do you admire St. Gregory for bringing Christianity to Armenia? I don't think their efforts were in vain. They did God's work and are remembered by all of us today. We wouldn't even be Armenian if it wasn't for them fighting for our heritage and beliefs. My career is based in journalism actually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 === Armenian Forum, right you are. Is Christianity not part of the Armenian culture? Do you celebrate Vartanank, Arpa? or for that fact, do you admire St. Gregory for bringing Christianity to Armenia? My career is based in journalism actually God may be universal, that is He belongs to everybody, including Armenians. Jesus was not Armenian, neither were Thaddeus and Bartholomew, and… are you ready? .. Neither was Loussavorich. He was Parthian/Partev, we don’t even know if he spoke Armenian. If a foreigner/Parthian can go to Armenia convert the nation, trash all native culture why can’t a Mormon from Utah do the same??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 God may be universal, that is He belongs to everybody, including Armenians. Jesus was not Armenian, neither were Thaddeus and Bartholomew, and… are you ready? .. Neither was Loussavorich. He was Parthian/Partev, we don’t even know if he spoke Armenian. If a foreigner/Parthian can go to Armenia convert the nation, trash all native culture why can’t a Mormon from Utah do the same??? Right you are, but why didn't you answer my questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) Dear sSebB, I commend you on your perseverance in defending Christianity; stay strong in your conviction. Here is a little excerpt from the evening hour of the Book of Hours – Jhamagirk. Lord if you open my lips, I will sing about your all Mightiness. Edited February 26, 2006 by Ludwig9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 God may be universal, that is He belongs to everybody, including Armenians. Jesus was not Armenian, neither were Thaddeus and Bartholomew, and… are you ready? .. Neither was Loussavorich. He was Parthian/Partev, we don’t even know if he spoke Armenian. If a foreigner/Parthian can go to Armenia convert the nation, trash all native culture why can’t a Mormon from Utah do the same??? Well then, there were alot of non Armenian Kings whom Armenians think are Armenian, not to mention Sahak Partev, who is a Parthian, contributted to the invention of the Armenian Alphabet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) Lord if you open my lips, I will sing about your all Mightiness. Why do people feel so compelled to converse with God? Isn't that the height of arrogance to bring God down to our levels and start conversing? Whether it's prayer or the usual wheeling and dealing of "Oh God if you do this I promise to do this and that". That's another thing that has often disturbed me about the Church ... the fact that the Guys in the funny dresses holding the Big crosses tend to start talking to God sometimes and addressing Him directly. Edited February 26, 2006 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) That's another thing that has often disturbed me about the Church ... the fact that the Guys in the funny dresses holding the Big crosses tend to start talking to God sometimes and addressing Him directly. Sip, I think that Wisconsin winter has frozen your vo**k and your cheesehead as well. Are you looking for a warmer place, a place with fire and brimstone? Edited February 26, 2006 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Perhaps!!! perrrrrrrrhaps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Hi Sip, few years back we were passing through Wisconson we lunched at a family restaurant. When I ordered half a chicken with baked potato, man you should have seen the size of the potato and the chicken. It looked like a football and turkey. When I asked the waitress about the size, she told me that this is how it comes here. Is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Why do people feel so compelled to converse with God? Isn't that the height of arrogance to bring God down to our levels and start conversing? Excuse me, but weren't you complaining just a few posts ago why God doesn't show up and give us a lecture? Can I call it the height of arrogance? Talking to God is possible and everybody's birthright. It is arrogant to think that God should follow our whims and talk to us in a way that we want Him to talk. That is very egotistical. However, it is not arrogant that we sincerely seek God and through prayer and meditation talk to God the way He envisioned. It is not our way that should be, it is God's way that should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yervant1 Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Excuse me, but weren't you complaining just a few posts ago why God doesn't show up and give us a lecture? Can I call it the height of arrogance? Talking to God is possible and everybody's birthright. It is arrogant to think that God should follow our whims and talk to us in a way that we want Him to talk. That is very egotistical. However, it is not arrogant that we sincerely seek God and through prayer and meditation talk to God the way He envisioned. It is not our way that should be, it is God's way that should be. Hi Sasun, leave everything aside now I think Sip is ignoring us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Excuse me, but weren't you complaining just a few posts ago why God doesn't show up and give us a lecture? Can I call it the height of arrogance? Exactly what I was thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) Hopefully, some day you will outgrow it Seb. I said this before. Let me say it in other words. Here it is in simple, if graphic terms. I am not sure of your gender. If I remember correctly you may have said that you are a boy, i.e male. And if I remember correctly, it was such a long time ago, at your age my main concern was how to get between the “knees” of a girl, (try it sometime and see how delicious it is) and not get down on my “knees” in a position of prayer. Yet,! What do you know? I am a hetanos/pagan, whatever that may mean. Does that mean “human”, i.e made of “humus/soil/ashes”, "hogh" in Armenian, as in "hogh eyir darnas hoghi", as opposed to “divine“? Edited February 26, 2006 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Sasun, I think you know I have no reason to believe in God. So it is not arrogant of me to say if there were a God, that was as powerful as you God believers claim, that maybe he would have had a better way to tell of His wishes. The part about the lecture was obviously sarcasm. But my observation about prayer and conversing with God is a valid one. It is EXTREMELY arrogant to first of all claim one knows it all, that there is a super powerful God that created everything, and then make conversations and sometimes demands of that God. Hope this is clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 It is arrogant to think that God should follow our whims and talk to us in a way that we want Him to talk. That is very egotistical. I completely agree. Heck even the process of "talking" must be beneath God. Talking and conversing, and even THOUGHT are human qualities. They are not Godly by any means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 And if I remember correctly, it was such a long time ago, at your age my main concern was how to get between the “knees” of a girl, (try it sometime and see how delicious it is) and not get down on my “knees” in a position of prayer. Arpa, that's not fair. Not all teenagers are stereotypically thinking about sex all the time. At least not all the time. Some of my guy friends were/are more thinkers than the great teenage masses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Sasun, I think you know I have no reason to believe in Go ==== ==== that maybe he would have had a better way to tell of His wishes. The part about the lecture was obviously sarcasm. That is so reminiscent of my post of some days ago that was so viciously and un-christian-like attacked, where I questioned the language God speaks in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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