DominO123 Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 BTW Hellektor, welcome to HyeForum, it is just a matter of time that you'll learn I'm Domino, the guy that has decided to waste time for few days on the other board. Most of my answers were just copypasting my previous answers,... if you wonder how come I can answer that much with no time at all. They always recycle the same st. Oh and, the code of conduct here in HyeForum is very strict..., Turk bashing is restricted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verginne Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 (edited) Hi everyone, I've been visiting Hyeforum for quite some time now, finally I decided to participate now and again. Usually I'm trying to talk some sense into damaged Turkish brains at http://www.armeniangenocide.com It takes up much time and energy but it's impossible to change their attitudes which are "formed" through some serious lobotomy by their system. Anyway, is there anyone who could tell me why the treaty of Sèvres is not good enough? It was signed by Turkey, Armenia and the other victorious countries, whereas the Lausanne treaty was imposed on Armenia. style_images/master/snapback.png Glad you decided to come back here. However, arguing with a turk is like worrying about swatting a fly on the wall when you have an elephant standing on your chest. The elephant is a lot more threatening. The Lausanne Treaty has no validity whatsoever. Did Armenia, Russia or the US sign it? Edited June 20, 2005 by Verginne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Treaties mean st, during war, populations are butchered, pushed out, and people signe treaties excluding people that should be involved. There are legal ground for the Sevres Treaty, but there is no any single international court that would ever force it getting ratified, because of what it might involve. Turkey is worlds 6st most armed(army) country, The United states close ally, Israels first(and only) ally on the entire region. We've lost it, they have destroyed the people, and stolen the land..., it is a genocide afteral, if it is not a lost, what is it? It is always easier to take Artsax away from Armenians, than angering Turkey and the Muslim world. style_images/master/snapback.png Domino jan (I'm sure I'll get to pronounce your nick here sometime but let me call you by the other), I know all this, but don't you think we are a bit too defeatist? Why shouldn't we be a bit more demanding? Why can't we slap in the face of the sniveling "Azeri" foxes (sorry for the bashing, I just can't help it!) when they claim the universe despite their miserable defeat? I still think that Sèvres is a valuable document and the only worry that I have is whether some Armenians at least, would go and live there once it's been returned, (in 10, 50 or 100 years, it doesn't matter). Meanwhile we have to come up with a way to reconvert our Turkified kin who still know they are Armenians. And one last thing: America is just a paper tiger, the American Empire will not last forever. We've seen them all come and go: The Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans, Greeks, Arabs, Turks of all species, Czarist and Bolshevik Empires... they all came, pillaged and plundered Armenia and they're all gone but we are still there. I know I sound too optimistic but do you really believe we should forget about Kars, Ani, Sassoon, Moush, Van, Ardahan, Ardvin, Surmalu...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baboula Posted June 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 You're pulling my leggs here. Smashed, butchered etc..., you can add and add..., the general idea was there with the raping analogy. There is no: "OK! I did it" here. There is an: "No, I didn't do it, I didn't raped you, you wanted to have sex, you excited me..." and this with a smile on his face. As for your second paragraph, I can't quite understand how you came from what I wrote, to the conclusion that from the same logic, genocide could be as well interpreted as an individual task. It was the murder of a nation(collectivity) before anything else. There is homeland reconstitution, and there is personal property reparation, both are different. style_images/master/snapback.png No the general idea was not there. I could even go as far as saying you were minimizing the AG to a simple rape with your analogy. YOU were talking about healing wounds with the recognition, hence "OK, I did it" is the recognition you seem to think will heal the wounds. I'm not surprised you don't understand the second paragraph and I don't think you understood the first one either. Do you even realize what you are writing? There was a murder of a nation collectively before anything? No there wasn't a murder of a nation colectively first. First there were Armenian INDIVIDUALS murdered. Listen buddy, you're no Toynbee, so try keeping your nonsense to a minimum. Churches and schools and such, were not personal property. If a nation is murdered collectively, then they are entitled to reperations collectively. Ever hear of a class action suit? Or do you think that there should be 1.5 million lawsuits against turkey for personal property? Do me and yourself a favor and don't respond to my posts, because I'm not interested in your brand of turkish style nonsense. I already put Armjan on my ignore list because of his comprehension skill deficiency and it looks like you'll be number two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 You might have seen this, if you haven't it's worth checking out! http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__Narrati...n_genocide.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Turk bashing is restricted. style_images/master/snapback.png For the record I want to state......any bushing, racist, hatful comments to ANYBODY will result in warning and eventual ban from the hyeforum. Once more I ask everyone to observe the CODE OF CONDUCT of this forum. Keep it clean and nice, have respect to all, regardless of there Nationalities! As for those who will choose to ignore it, Will be banned! Without warning!! Thank you for your corporation by making the Hyeforum the best Armenian forum on the net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 (edited) This might be a bit off-topic, but... Isn't it ironic that Syria, where most of the genocide took place, hasn't recognized the Genocide yet ? (regardless Turkey's threats) Does IT have something to hide too?? Edited June 21, 2005 by Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 (edited) Domino jan (I'm sure I'll get to pronounce your nick here sometime but let me call you by the other), I know all this, but don't you think we are a bit too defeatist? Why shouldn't we be a bit more demanding? Why can't we slap in the face of the sniveling "Azeri" foxes (sorry for the bashing, I just can't help it!) when they claim the universe despite their miserable defeat? I still think that Sèvres is a valuable document and the only worry that I have is whether some Armenians at least, would go and live there once it's been returned, (in 10, 50 or 100 years, it doesn't matter). Meanwhile we have to come up with a way to reconvert our Turkified kin who still know they are Armenians. And one last thing: America is just a paper tiger, the American Empire will not last forever. We've seen them all come and go: The Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans, Greeks, Arabs, Turks of all species, Czarist and Bolshevik Empires... they all came, pillaged and plundered Armenia and they're all gone but we are still there. I know I sound too optimistic but do you really believe we should forget about Kars, Ani, Sassoon, Moush, Van, Ardahan, Ardvin, Surmalu...? style_images/master/snapback.png True, but as we wait and wish land return..., when this happens a century or something, there might just be no Armenians left in the diaspora by then to return. I agree that the Sevres Treaty has value, but my proposition is to use it for another purpouses. Turkey officially recognize Nagorno Artsax as an independent state, and the Lachin Corridor with it. We as well sign a treaty of reparation, having the right to use the Sea in the Turkish borders for Armenian compagnies without paying any taxes... Armenian monuments like the ruin of Ani as well become Armenian property. Parts of the generated profit from Tourists goes to Armenia. etc. What I believe is that we should make of what we have a better place to live in. Once Artsax is recognized by Turkey, other countries will follow, and with the opening of the border and an access to the sea without being taxed... The only possibility of getting those lands would be a world war. Edited June 21, 2005 by QueBeceR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baboula Posted June 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Come with me and discuss with Turks for 5 years, and after, let see if you will maintain this. Turks do not only deny the genocide because they are afraid to have to give the land back. style_images/master/snapback.png The turks you seem to have been discussing with for five years are bafoons of no significance. They are not the ones making the decisions now nor will they be the ones making the decisions when the time comes for AG recognition. Also, I don't care how many copies of Taner Akcem's book you own. If it wasn't for fear of reperations and land returns, the turks would be boasting about the genocide they commited instead of terying to fit into a human mask in order to get into the EU. Anyway, from your writing style and thinking patterns, it shows you've been hanging with turkeys for the last five years. So as I requested perviously, please do not reply to my posts and stick to discussions whith turks who seem to be more on your level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 This might be a bit off-topic, but... Isn't it ironic that Syria (where most of the genocide took place) hasn't recognized the Genocide yet? Does IT have something to hide too?? style_images/master/snapback.png Syria was part of the Ottoman Empire when it happened. It doesn't share much reponsability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baboula Posted June 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 This might be a bit off-topic, but... Isn't it ironic that Syria (where most of the genocide took place) hasn't recognized the Genocide yet? Does IT have something to hide too?? style_images/master/snapback.png No it has nothing to hide, it has something to fear from turkey and her freinds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 (edited) The turks you seem to have been discussing with for five years are bafoons of no significance. They are not the ones making the decisions now nor will they be the ones making the decisions when the time comes for AG recognition. Also, I don't care how many copies of Taner Akcem's book you own. If it wasn't for fear of reperations and land returns, the turks would be boasting about the genocide they commited instead of terying to fit into a human mask in order to get into the EU. Anyway, from your writing style and thinking patterns, it shows you've been hanging with turkeys for the last five years. So as I requested perviously, please do not reply to my posts and stick to discussions whith turks who seem to be more on your level. style_images/master/snapback.png The denial is the result of perverted nationalism, inferiority complex, and inflated pride. They think there is no way the land could be returned back. And this is not only the "Akcams" of this world that think this. Ask Dadrian, Suny or any Armenian historians of the era, and see what they will answer you. This is not just my opinion. Edited June 21, 2005 by QueBeceR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Turkey is worlds 6st most armed(army) country, The United states close ally, Israels first(and only) ally on the entire region. Judeo-Anglo-Saxons created and still support the monster dinosaur Turkey. They should be held responsible as well as the Turks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Judeo-Anglo-Saxons created and still support the monster dinosaur Turkey. They should be held responsible as well as the Turks. style_images/master/snapback.png When times come, the British should be one of the parties being charged as well. What they did should never be forgotten, and they even dare not recognising the genocide. They're the ones that made the separation of Nagorno Artsax from Armenia possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baboula Posted June 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 (edited) For the record I want to state......any bushing, racist, hatful comments to ANYBODY will result in warning and eventual ban from the hyeforum. Once more I ask everyone to observe the CODE OF CONDUCT of this forum. Keep it clean and nice, have respect to all, regardless of there Nationalities! As for those who will choose to ignore it, Will be banned! Without warning!! Thank you for your corporation by making the Hyeforum the best Armenian forum on the net. style_images/master/snapback.png Hey big shot. I have read some of your posts to other posters here and you haven't been all that respectful to others. In one thread you were threatening one poster about racism but I saw no racism in his/her posts, yet at the same time another poster in the same thread wrote "Why are talking about those f**** Jews again?" (which has now been changed to "Why are talking about those $#%^@ Jews again?" which is basically still the same thing), yet your response to the individual who wrote that was, "well said Arpa, and....." and you went on to threaten the other poster who made no racist remarks whatsoever other then calling them liars, oh what a sin, and you ended with, "Arpa jan nice to see you again here". There was other nonsense you went on and on about. Gorky's works. This isn't the arts section, this is the Genocide section in case you haven't noticed and posting about Gorky here would be somewhat off topi and doesn't belong here. Then you go on about this being an Armenian forum and you want to dictate how an Armenian should act? "This is an Armenian forum, we have so much to talk about, and we are Armenians! Act like one. If you don’t know what that means, do your self’s a favor and find out, hate is not the way to go!" Yes we have much to talk about but it seems we can't talk about anything that doesn't tickle your fancy. Yes this is an Armenian forum and not Edward's forum where he can go pushing his weight around bullying people. You were put as a moderator to see that this forum is productive and discussions kept at a decent level, but that's not what you do, you play the schoolyard bully. Don't confuse anger with hate and don't call truth hate either as that's reserved exclusively for the chosen tribe. There was another poster who refered to others as "clowns". Is it alright if I call you a clown Edward, or are those privelages only for you and your freinds? And that's just a couple of examples of your CONDUCT and that of two other moderators here, but there was much more I saw in a number of threads and as an Armenian, I find it offensive and revolting. Isn't saying turks commited a genocide, a racist hateful comment? I mean you would be accusing the turks by making a blanket statement accusing ALL turks of commiting a henious crime which is called generalizing and it most definately offends some turks and we wouldn't want to offend the turks would we, Edward!? And I guess I shouldn't say anything about Jews denying the AG or I'll get accused of anti-semitism or something. Yea, go ahead and threaten me with banning, this that or whatever and I'll tell you that there's no way I will put up with your, vava's or that guy with the cheese on his head's behaviour and I will leave. With people like you attacking their fellow Armenians in order to defend those who are clearly trying to do our people harm, it's no wonder we experienced a major genocide and we well deserved it as we had no unity then and we certainly don't have unity now and you're the living proof of that. Edited June 21, 2005 by baboula Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verginne Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 When times come, the British should be one of the parties being charged as well. What they did should never be forgotten, and they even dare not recognising the genocide. They're the ones that made the separation of Nagorno Artsax from Armenia possible. style_images/master/snapback.png How's that? I thought our very own turkophile Stalin was responsible for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 How's that? I thought our very own turkophile Stalin was responsible for that? style_images/master/snapback.png Of course, Stalin to please Turkey(still believing he could get it in the confederation) and punish the Armenians for revolting and regaining again independence for a very short time, reverted the decisions(after that Azerbaijan did recognize Artsax and Nachikevan as part of SSR Armenia) and placed Artsax in the hands of Azerbaijan. But those things were made possible after that the British abrutly decided to dissolve the Armenian self-governed administration and place Artsax in an Azeris administration(trying to please the Azeris to sign oil field contracts), making false promisses. They had a mandate there, and while the Americans were supposed to replace the British to secure an Armenia, the British by their impulsive decision, without really consulting the other members of the allies have redrawn, leaving the Americans in the impossibility to replace them. As a result, Artsax was recognized by the British as Azeris land until the Peace conference, and as well they made the drawing of the Eastern borders of Armenia resheduled and resheduled, until the Kemalist force became out of control. Had the Armenians knew the British will again fail to respect their promisses, they would at least mobilize and try to secure it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 I have a few thoughts in my mind, that I want to blurt out . Fist of all, here is an interesting opinion piece. http://www.hetq.am/eng/society/0504-genocide.html And here is my favourite line: Recovering territory and obtaining material restitution someday will heal our wounds more than all the Turkish acknowledgments in the world. Notice, for example, that as Armenians now control Karabagh and the surrounding territory, the repression and massacres that Azerbaijan inflicted on Armenians in the last 100 years take a back seat. Winning, therefore, is the best revenge, though we will always honor those who perished and suffered in the Genocide. That is a 100% true statement. Does anyone disagree? Would anyone one of you give a dam what Turks recognised or aknowleged or didn't recognise or didn't aknowlege if we won? If we took by force that which is rightfully ours, the Turks would be lobbying for genocide recognition not us, just like the Azeris are now claiming that Armenians committed genocide against them (2 million, if you can imagine). Forgetting the headlines their mobs made in Sumgait, in Baku, in Kirovabad. Forgetting all about the daily shower of GRAD artillery and cluster bombs on Stepanakirt. They lost, so they were genocided. And what of the Armenian side? What is the most visible and noticeabale emotion of most Armenians with regard to Nagorno-Artsax? Is it the sorrow over the death and destruction or is it pride and jubilation over the victory? For me, its the latter. As I assume it is for most of you. And we can take a further analogy to sports. If an unjust penalty is awarded to your oponnent, and he converts. You feel a blow, and an injustice, and you are angry. If you overcome that penalty to win, you could care less about it. For you it is sweet rebribution. And what if you lost? Then it becomes an issue. Then it becomes an obsession, then you demand reviews, then you demand justice. You demand that someone else deliver that justice, since you failed to deliver it yourself by winning. Am I wrong about anything so far? I have so many thoughts in my head right now, and I'd like to share something about myself. I have some more blurting out to do. And I will be all over the place.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armjan Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Isn't saying turks commited a genocide, a racist hateful comment? No, because it's true. isn't committing a genocide a racist, hateful and evil act? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 That mud is thrown on the victims, that their memory is bashed, that they are viewed as aggressors, that the government set a powerful falsification machine, introducing itself in universities, newspapers etc. around the world, that they pay professors to deny the event isen't important? Why are WE really trying to get those countries recognize the genocide, if it is not primary a way to use it as shield against this sick campagn of the Turkish state denial and it's disrespect of the memory of the victims? If this is not about fighting for the truth and defeat those lies? What it is? If it is not to finally give those victims the proper burial to secure their memory? What it is? This is not only about Turkey recognizing it, it is just more than that. If you don't think Turkey's recognizing is important important for us, then think of the recognition as defeating lies and protecting the memory of those that died. While I don't believe Turkey will ever recognize it, I still think, as a respect for the victims, we shall smash their lies and expose them, going to the source of the problem and force them to recognize it even if we know they won't. One think I agree thought, is that the recognition by the international community is much more possible, because they are shields,... but nothing is better than going to the source, which is Ankara..., they must fear our position, they must understand how our position is strong, they must realize that they can try hard and hard by fabricating new materials, they will never defeat it. I have a few thoughts in my mind, that I want to blurt out . Fist of all, here is an interesting opinion piece. http://www.hetq.am/eng/society/0504-genocide.html And here is my favourite line: That is a 100% true statement. Does anyone disagree? Would anyone one of you give a dam what Turks recognised or aknowleged or didn't recognise or didn't aknowlege if we won? If we took by force that which is rightfully ours, the Turks would be lobbying for genocide recognition not us, just like the Azeris are now claiming that Armenians committed genocide against them (2 million, if you can imagine). Forgetting the headlines their mobs made in Sumgait, in Baku, in Kirovabad. Forgetting all about the daily shower of GRAD artillery and cluster bombs on Stepanakirt. They lost, so they were genocided. And what of the Armenian side? What is the most visible and noticeabale emotion of most Armenians with regard to Nagorno-Artsax? Is it the sorrow over the death and destruction or is it pride and jubilation over the victory? For me, its the latter. As I assume it is for most of you. And we can take a further analogy to sports. If an unjust penalty is awarded to your oponnent, and he converts. You feel a blow, and an injustice, and you are angry. If you overcome that penalty to win, you could care less about it. For you it is sweet rebribution. And what if you lost? Then it becomes an issue. Then it becomes an obsession, then you demand reviews, then you demand justice. You demand that someone else deliver that justice, since you failed to deliver it yourself by winning. Am I wrong about anything so far? I have so many thoughts in my head right now, and I'd like to share something about myself. I have some more blurting out to do. And I will be all over the place.. style_images/master/snapback.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 OK, I just have read the article, I understand better what you meant. I should have read the article before answering, my mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baboula Posted June 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 (edited) I have a few thoughts in my mind, that I want to blurt out . Fist of all, here is an interesting opinion piece. http://www.hetq.am/eng/society/0504-genocide.html And here is my favourite line: That is a 100% true statement. Does anyone disagree? Would anyone one of you give a dam what Turks recognised or aknowleged or didn't recognise or didn't aknowlege if we won? If we took by force that which is rightfully ours, the Turks would be lobbying for genocide recognition not us, just like the Azeris are now claiming that Armenians committed genocide against them (2 million, if you can imagine). Forgetting the headlines their mobs made in Sumgait, in Baku, in Kirovabad. Forgetting all about the daily shower of GRAD artillery and cluster bombs on Stepanakirt. They lost, so they were genocided. And what of the Armenian side? What is the most visible and noticeabale emotion of most Armenians with regard to Nagorno-Artsax? Is it the sorrow over the death and destruction or is it pride and jubilation over the victory? For me, its the latter. As I assume it is for most of you. And we can take a further analogy to sports. If an unjust penalty is awarded to your oponnent, and he converts. You feel a blow, and an injustice, and you are angry. If you overcome that penalty to win, you could care less about it. For you it is sweet rebribution. And what if you lost? Then it becomes an issue. Then it becomes an obsession, then you demand reviews, then you demand justice. You demand that someone else deliver that justice, since you failed to deliver it yourself by winning. Am I wrong about anything so far? I have so many thoughts in my head right now, and I'd like to share something about myself. I have some more blurting out to do. And I will be all over the place.. style_images/master/snapback.png What a great article! Thank you Skhara, it was just what I needed and so perfect to show that QuebecR here doesn't know what he's talking about and he doesn't realize the concequences to his foolish proposals and that article does it beautifully. It repeatedly states that recognition or acknowledgments without lands or restitution won't do. I agree with you 100% although the way I read some people here, I'm under the impression that they think we should give NK back to the azeris because otherwise we look bad and like aggressors who are only trying to grab land that rightfully belong to the azeris. We displaced the poor azeris and rendered them homeless. In other words, we did exactly the same thing that was done to us in 1915 and now we're no better than the turks as we commited a genocide on the defenseless azeri population. Hey, maybe some reperations to azerbaijan is in order along with returning those lands that don't belong to us and as a good will gesture, we should mark a day of rememberance to the 2 million azeris that perished and erect a monument in their memory in Yerevan. And the next time the turks or azeris attack us, we should shower them with flowers and blow kisses at them, because we want to show that we are not like the turks and the azeris. They rape my daughter, I'll just turn the other cheek and give them my other daughter to rape because that's what my bible tells me to do and after all is said and done, I'll sit in the rubble and ashes of my home surrounded by the death of my people and the destruction of my country so I can forgive, forget and love my azeri neighbor. Then we can say, "We are not like them, we are better." Edited June 21, 2005 by baboula Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 (edited) This is a good one. http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__Narratives__Documen/Armenian_Genocide/martyr.jpg Edited June 21, 2005 by skhara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 baboula, I have an idea on what I think should be done and how it should be done. I think I'll probably have a lot of typing to do, and go off on different tangents, so I'll come back to this thread tomorow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellektor Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 This might be a bit off-topic, but... Isn't it ironic that Syria, where most of the genocide took place, hasn't recognized the Genocide yet ? (regardless Turkey's threats) Does IT have something to hide too?? style_images/master/snapback.png I hope this won't be taken wrongly, but it's because Syria is an Islamic country... Lebanon is the only Muslim country that has recognized the AG and that's because of the influential Christian minority. That said we shouldn't forget that Arabs gave shelter to the victims of the AG and we are eternally grateful for that. Arab and other Muslim intellectuals who have written books about the sufferings of the Armenians are also not scarce. Quran:009.029 YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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