Let's Assume Turkey Decides To Recognize Genocide

[TMNT]

TMNT, the US involvement in Iraq has changes the significance of "Pan-Turkism" idea. If the reigmes in Syrian and Iran change one day it the importance of "Pan-Turkism" for the West will go to 0. As Pan-Turkism can develop only in case it is relevant to the West I see that the reverse process is happening currently. A intergrated Turkish element was necessary only in case US and EU needed it to gain access to the Central Asian energy resources. This scenario is not there anymore and you could even see this from the passive position of Turkey regarding its relations with the Central Asian republics. Turley simply cannot concentrate on its EU accession and built Turkish union. Theu have to chose.

 

A semi-solid analysis written in ten minutes:

 

Ok, so we can assume that Turkey will ethier...

 

1. Join the European Union (EU)

2. Form a Pan-Turkish block

3. Continue on as a member of the American-Israeli-Turkish Axis

4. Form alliance with Russia

 

Regional affairs that could affect Armenia...

 

1. Destabilization of Iran

2. Rise of China as world power

3. The Tehran-Bajing-Moscow-Yerevan quartet

 

TURKEY, THE NEXT STEP:

 

1. The EU scenario or as I have come to dub it as the "lose/lose" situation...

 

There are two possible outcomes (A) Turkey joins the EU and uses its vote in favor of Azarbaijan or (B ) Turkey does not join the EU and embraces Islam, thus, instead of looking west begins looking east, eyeing Armenia in the process.

 

(A) Pro: By Turkey joining the EU, it falls under the jurisdiction of the EU, therefore, Armenia has a limited gurantee that it will not try to invade or, for a lack of better term, "bully" Armenia. This gives Armenia a chance to get out underneath Russian and American pressure and thus, take a nuatral stance on world politics (Become somthing like Switzerland).

 

Con: If Turkey joins the EU, it will do everything in its power to resolve the Karabagh conflict in favor of Azerbaijan and in general, will try to hinder the progression of Armenia through its massive voting power. Germany will most likly ally itself with Turkey and eventually both nations will have solidified their influence on the direction of the EU.

 

(B ) If Turkey does not join the EU it will most likly shift its focus towards the East. It will try to "reconcile" differences with the other Islamic nations, but due to its Pro-Israeli stance, it will most likly find no reliable ally among them. This will push Turkey into desperation and eventually will lead it towards Pan-Turkism.

 

2. Pan-Turkism is a VERY SCARY REALITY. If Turkey is pushed towards the edge, it will no doubt resort to Pan-Turkism. Now, you may be think this is a bit of stretch, but recent nationalistic sentiments do indicate that the Turkish population sees the push for EU membership as a cop-out approach. They feel their "Turkish/Muslim" heritage has become 2nd to EU membership and in recent newspaper articles I have read (I can't find them right now, was on groong) the sentiments of Turks are as nationalistic as they were 100 years ago. If such a block was formed it would have the largest oil, mineral, and gas reserves in the world, now, don't you think that is enough of a incentive to form a Turkish block?Russians did not keep Soviet Armenia for the sake of Armenians, but rather, it is the perfect defensive buffer in case of a Pan-Turkish push by Turkey.

 

3. Turkey can revitalize the American-Israeli-Turkish axis. I doubt this will happen mainly due to the recent fallout between Washington and Ankara, not to mention the recent statements by Turkish politicians that label Israel as a terrorist state. In addition, Turks hate the U.S. as much as any Islamic fundimentalist, therefore, the will of Turks will not allow their government to pursue this path. Recent books like Metal Storm, which depict a regional war between Turkey and the U.S. over Iraq, indicates that Turks do not consider America a ally.

 

4. Lastly, Turkey can form a alliance with Russia. This would basically only be a economic alliance like the one between China and the U.S. What Ankara will try to do is isolate Armenia even further by befriending the only Superpower in the region (AKA Russia). This outcome is up in the air, there is dialog between Turkey and Russia, but to what extent no one really knows. Therefore, it is crucial for Armenia to strenghten its ties with the U.S. in case Turkey decides to take this approach. I highly doubt Turkey will take this approach mainly because it has historically seen Russia as a rival to its power in the region. Furthermore, once Turkey does take this step it would have offically severed its ties with the U.S. and EU.

 

OTHER REGIONAL AFFAIRS:

 

1. The destablization of Iran will create more problems for Armenia. First, Iran is another nation Armenia has a somewhat cordially historic ties with. They are the 3rd regional power and have their own interests in Armenia. They view Armenia as a western outpost in which they can use to further their own national interests on the global stage. Lastly, there are Armenians in Iran and are in good standing with the Islamic Government.

 

If the government in Iran is brought down by a western backed opposition and replaced by a pro-western puppet government then it will most likly mean that Armenia can not look towards Iran as a 2nd option. Once Iran is controlled by the west (AKA Israel) then Armenia will have to go through the U.S. in order to voice its opinion and seeing how the U.S. is a supporter of Israel, who counts on Turkey, I don't think this would be beneficial to the progress of Armenia.

 

A western backed opposition might give Azerbaijan a chance to annex Northern Iran through Turkish pressur. Turkey would like to see a unified Iraq and a divided Iran, thus, it would be in their interests to push for Iran's destabilization.

 

2. The rise of China as a superpower in the region should also be considered considering how much China has invested in both Russia and Iran. China is growing beyond its ability to fuel the growth, therefore, it needs any energy source possible. This is why we are seeing more Chinese influence on Iranian political issues, which indirectly affect Armenia. Furthermore, the Chinese are in a biding war with Japan over the development of Russian oil reserves. This means that Armenia can use its good ties with Russia and Iran to strenghten its ties with China, thus, opening up a spot for a new regional player.

 

3. Well, on the plus side there is a sort of quartet that is being formed to oppose Turkey-Israel-America. I was reading Fourtune recently and apprently China has invested a lot of resources (i.e. technology) in the development of Iran for the exclusive rights to develop Iran's oil reserves. In addition, Russia has been selling arms to China, while at the same time selling oil reserve development contracts to Chinese investors. This ties the problems of Iran, Russia, China, and Armenia together, thus, forming a block against Turkey-Israel-America.

 

END OF ANALYSIS

Edited April 24, 2005 by TMNT

[TMNT]

Armen, anyway you look at, Armenia has two destinies. It can either be subjigated for another 2,000 years or with a little bit of devotion can become a small, but self sufficient country. However, this will not occur if Armenians continually push for Armenian interests outside of Armenia. To a certain extent it is important for to have a voice in the Russian Duma or the United States Congress, but we must make sure we are not sentencing ourselves to death by staying in nations that push for assimilation. Remember, you can't always walk the fence and at one point you will have to decide which side you are on. I don't have the luxury of converting anyone into an Armenian. Let us make sure we make decisions that will guarantee our survival on the world stage.

 

This is why it is important to attain as much resources as we can. Let me ask you, if land is unimportant, why is America is sitting on acres of undeveloped land? Why is Turkey is so motivated to keep the land it took from Armenians? Yes, let’s face it, if land is worthless why is it that Turks are so keen on keeping almost 90% of our historical Armenia? I understand that you are trying to be “rational”, but no one is demanding anything, but “undeveloped”, “worthless”, and “resource less” land, so, why would Turkey object if we attempted a land grab?

 

When you give up your claims to your historical land then you also give up your claims to your history.

Edited April 24, 2005 by TMNT

[kars]

TMNT: "90% of our historical Armenia"

 

90% ??!! Wow! You definitely can’t be accused of lack of imagination. And while you are in your megalomanic mood, why not just say “99%” and be done with it? Sounds better, doesn’t it? I’d love to see the maps of historical Armenia you are using.

 

And your entire post begs the following question: assuming those lands are “returned” (which sounds like a dream of a comatose alcoholic), what are you planning to do with 10 million + Turks and Kurds living on it? (Just wondering).

[Arpa]

My hope is that Turkey mainatns her intransigence for while longer until the hits the fan.

You may have already heard what the new Pope had to say about Turkey's ascension to EU, that the Muslim country has no plac in Europe, and that they're better off sticking to their coreligionist neighborhood. This was repeated several time for all the world to hear, particurly the Catholic world.

Of course Pope Benedict may end up eating his words or amend it somehow, but what is said is a matter of record, and being of German persuasion and aware of Turks in his homelnd he knows what he is talking about. This may start a whole new page unlike his predecessor who publicly forgave his Turkish would be assassin.

[phantom22]

If the Genocide issue is resolved, Armenians will have to work to make peace among themselves. Before the major Genocide occurred (Armenians were massacred in large numbers before this) there were major rifts in the Armenian community. Just look to the ROA today, where Avetissian spews his filth every day. The authorities had to jail him and warn him about his activities toward internal unrest. Edited April 24, 2005 by phantom22

[Esayan]

Hey there,

 

I just joined the forum. It is good to see people are discusing important issues in a civilized manner, despite some occasional flaws.

 

As far as I can see, if the issue is reparation, it has to be discussed at two levels. I think it is important to theorize on the bilateral relations between Turkey and Armenia, besides thinking of the issue on a level of world politics. It is painful, but the reality is, we have just a little importance for the world powers, except for being a tool to play against the Turks when its convinient for them.

 

When I emphasized on bilateral relations, the crucial point here is understanding the other side's psychology. Those of us who read Groong, the Armenian newspapers or the other news sources has probably seen the recent study that indicated the level of awarenes and recognition of Armenian and Turkish peoples of eachother. My point is, even though Armenian people know Turks better than Turks know Armenians, we still have to educate ourselves on how Turkish government and Turkish society operates.

 

I want to state my point of view first. Despite the great odds, I do not see achieveing to the goal of acquiring the Western Armenia as an impossibility as long as we remain commited to this ultimate goal on both society and state levels. It is not a luxury to have the Western Armenia for Armenian people. It has to be our ultimate goal, because without the western terrritories of our homeland, it is impossible for an Armenian state to survive, especially because of its given geopolitical situation. The importance of the Western Armenia is not a subject of discussion. Armenia, having its traditional enemy states on its both sides( Turkey and Azerbaijan), with a large Azeri population in northen Iran, and the possibility of the resettlement of deported other Turkish elements to the Southern Georgia, is seriously rounded by Turks even today. Russia-Armenia-Iran allience is not a barrier against Turkey's Turanist pursuits, as long as Turkey has a border with Georgia. Georgia is a weak and unreliable country as history tells us. Therefore, for the sake of having an access to the Black sea, and isolating Turkey from Georgia, Western Armenian lands has to be acquired. Not only Kars and Ardahan, but the Wilsonian Armenia.

Before achieveing this goal, it is absurd to talk about the issues of populating, industrializing or urbanizing those areas.

 

So, the question is how to acquire those lands. The way I see it, our problem is the seperation between the factions, resulting in confussion. In other words, we dont know what we want. If we do not believe what we want, which is true justice, is achieveable, how can we expect it to become real? In fact our internal problems go beyond the political division. We have to question how nationalistic we really are. In the end, how many of us went on to settle to Armenia?

 

I really do not care if Turkey recognizes the genocide or not. It is like asking a murderer to confess his crime, and then setting him free. Some Armenians say modern Turks are not responsible for the genocide, while the others dare to say that if the Armenian commitees (Tashnaks, Hunchaks, etc.) did not cause the civil unrest, this would not happen. The bottomline is that we have a weak Armenia, and a strong Turkey whose sick policies still cause suffering. If you think something is impossible, look at Israel. There was no Israel 60 years ago, and the modern Palestinians are not responsible for the deportation of Jews 2000 years ago. However they did it. Modern day Turks have way more responsibility and guilt for our suffering than poor Palestinians' responsibility for the suffering of the Jews. My only hope is that one that we will take our lands back just as the way Jews did.

 

P.S. I condemn Israeli policies towards Palestinians. I just admire their patience and strength for remaining as a people for two thousand years.

Edited April 25, 2005 by Esayan

[phantom22]

Welcome Esayan,

 

It is unrealistic to expect to regain Wilsonian Armenia. Perhaps one day, at most, Kars and Ardahan, with Ani.

 

The Jews did not achieve retaking their territory alone. The Western powers set the stage for it to occur. Furthermore, many Jews were willing to repatriate there.

 

They are under constant threat from their neighbors. Our situation is presently different. The Turks are not actively trying to eliminate Armenia. I do not doubt that there are some Turks who envision this, but the situation is quite different from the circumstances that Israel finds itself in. Do we want to be in a constant state of war as Israel finds itself in?

 

Better that we try to find common ground with the Turks. They would like to have our business. They have justifiable grievances concerning their treatment in the Balkans (Yes, I know they acted like overlords to the local populations for centuries). We have justifiable grievances against the Turkish state, for past and present activities. We can not change our neighborhood. We are in a difficult geographical position. As I stated earlier, if Turks were railroaded out of Yerevan, they should be compensated. (edit note: Kars has clarified in another thread that Igdir Mayor's claims do not coincide with historical reality). The Turks can start making amends by restoring Armenian Churches, allowing churches to be repaired and honoring the property rights of Armenians and other Christians past and present. Their approach today is not one that coincides with the EU charter. The Genocide did not end in 1923. Cultural Genocide continues in Turkey to this day.

Edited April 25, 2005 by phantom22

[TMNT]

TMNT: "90% of our historical Armenia"

 

90% ??!! Wow! You definitely can’t be accused of lack of imagination. And while you are in your megalomanic mood, why not just say “99%” and be done with it? Sounds better, doesn’t it? I’d love to see the maps of historical Armenia you are using.

 

And your entire post begs the following question: assuming those lands are “returned” (which sounds like a dream of a comatose alcoholic), what are you planning to do with 10 million + Turks and Kurds living on it? (Just wondering).

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I am assuming you are trying to "ridicule" me, which is fine seeing as to how this a message board, but if those lands are not taken back then the Turkish government wins. Yes, maybe for a few years they will be looked down upon by the international community for their crimes against humanity, but in the end they will have completed their objective.

 

By the way, welcome to the forum.

Edited April 25, 2005 by TMNT

[phantom22]

TMNT,

 

How old are you?

[kars]

I am assuming you are trying to "ridicule" me, which is fine seeing as to how this a message board, but if those lands are not taken back then the Turkish government wins. Yes, maybe for a few years they will be looked down upon by the international community for their crimes against humanity, but in the end they will have completed their objective.

 

By the way, welcome to the forum.

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No, TMNT, ridiculing you was not my intent. If it sounded like that, I apologise. You should get used to my tone – sometimes it will be too sarcastic for many, but I can’t help it.

 

On the other hand, I’d like to see more responsible posts when it comes to numbers, dates, claims, etc. – after all, many people are reading these messages, besides you and I.

 

And thank you for the “welcome”.

[kars]

And you didn’t answer my question (not that you have to). What are you going to do with 10+ million Turks?

 

I can see that Esayan has even better appetites – “Wilsonian Armenia”. Now we are talking what – 30 million? If he settles one “Tashnag” and one “Hunchag” in every town in that area, both parties will run out of their members and there will still be hundreds of towns unsupervised.

[phantom22]

When my great-grandfather, a farsighted and influential man who was later personally brutally butchered by Turkish officials told the local Tashnaks and Hunchaks not to rock the boat, they shouted him down, threatened him and called him a traitor. They told him in Armenian "Shut up, old man." This to a man who had done so much for his fellow Armenians.

 

Some of the comments here resemble those of a person who has smoked hashish.

[Boghos]

"Rock the boat" ? Blame the victim. You seem to ignore that if were not for Tashnaks, or Hunchaks, Armenians would have been murdered using any other false pretense. It didn´t matter. Armenians were not supposed to exist in the new Turkey.

 

They already had a difficult life in the Ottoman Empire, the few concessions granted to Armenians "the loyal millet" did not amount to much. I am not going to repeat here all the discriminatory practices over the centuries, they are well known. Armenians were always second class citizens, at best.

Edited April 25, 2005 by Boghos

[Boghos]

My view on Turkey´s Genocide recognition: I don´t think it will amount to anything meaningful.

First, because it will be conditional, that is it will say that we are sorry for the enormous sufferings of Armenians in the OE but the Turkish state will preserve its territorial integrity. As we know there is only one way of changing that, at least when it comes to Turkey: force. So, it is not happening anytime soon. Second, I disagree with Azat, I don´t think interarmenian conflict will increase for a number of reasons: many diasporans will see that as the redemption of their ambitions, probably the majority, and will call it a day. Moreover, I don´t think it is fair to say that the genocide is the only uniting factor among Armenians (is there is any...), this has changed substantially with the creation of the ROA. Inasmuch as we feel pessimistic towards the country I think it is much more a reflection of growing pains and the secular Armenian habit of voting with the feet than anything else. There is room for hope. I would argue that there is ample room for hope. Imagine if all the energy that our "revolutionairies" have was spent towards the ROA, how much better things would be... And we´ll get there, I am quite convinced. It will take longer than we wish, however.

Edited April 25, 2005 by Boghos

[gamavor]

Imagine if all the energy that our "revolutionairies" was spent towards the ROA how much better things would be... And we´ll get there, I am quite convinced. It will take longer than we wish, however.

 

Exactly Boghos! The dream of many Diasporans, of somehow getting something from the Turks, could only be achieved through STRONG REPUBLIC OF ARMENIA!

 

Economically and militarily. Many people expressed their views that Armenia is weak and therefore cannot force Turkey to come to terms with the International Law and with her bloody past. That said, strong Armenia can and should through different international forums make her voice heard and if this didn't happen, than there is one more option that only strong countries can afford to use.

 

PS: And please do not give me the 70 million v. 4 million crap, because it is pointless. If Armenia had a dozen of nuclear missiles Turks would have rushed for the negotiating table. Honestly if Turks wait until the time we get some...we may not be interested anymore in negotiations.

 

All Armenia has to do is to.... knock and push (without permission)!

[Esayan]

And you didn’t answer my question (not that you have to). What are you going to do with 10+ million Turks?

 

I can see that Esayan has even better appetites – “Wilsonian Armenia”. Now we are talking what – 30 million? If he settles one “Tashnag” and one “Hunchag” in every town in that area, both parties will run out of their members and there will still be hundreds of towns unsupervised.

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Do you really know how many live where? What are these numbers 10m, 30m... Who is going to settle one Tashnag here one Hunchag there. Before making ridiculous statements, one must understand It is a matter of interests, and if there is enough support, anything is possible. When we say western Armenia, that means Wilsonian Armenia. That was the only modern map drawn by a western power as Western Armenia, which was ratified in Sevres. If you do not take it as a basis, you do not have anything. Those "dzovits dzov gotchvogh Hayastan" maps that we have are nothing but tools to satisfy ourselves. Although it is a long term plan, it is not impossible. If you ask me what is impossible to take back, my answer would be Cilicia. It is totally lost and there is no way we can get it back.

 

We are not politicians here. We have ideas to share, and thats what we do. Questions such as "what are you going to do with 10m Turks?" cannot be answered, not because there is no answer, but because there is no exact answer. I prefer not to write my opinion on that issue, because we are not in a situation to consider it realistically.

 

Who cares about Kars, Ardahan...They are not geopoliticaly important.

Actually, they were supposed to be parts of Eastern Armenia technically, since they were incorporated in the Tsarist Russia, and were parts of the first republic. No one focusses on the danger that can be caused by a Turkish-Georgian allience. Remember where the Baku-Tiblissi-Ceyhan pipeline passes thru.

 

By the way, these quatrains are taken from Nostradamus' prophecies, Century V. Check them out.

 

26

The slavish people through luck in war

Will become elevated to a very high degree:

They will change their Prince, one born a provincial,

An army raised in the mountains to pass over the sea.

27

Through fire and arms not far from the Black Sea,

He will come from Persia to occupy Trebizond:

Pharos, Mytilene to tremble, the Sun joyful,

The Adriatic Sea covered with Arab blood.

 

I just thought they were interesting.

Good luck!

[Dave]

How did we lose the Kars/Ardahan region?

[TMNT]

And you didn’t answer my question (not that you have to). What are you going to do with 10+ million Turks?

 

I can see that Esayan has even better appetites – “Wilsonian Armenia”. Now we are talking what – 30 million? If he settles one “Tashnag” and one “Hunchag” in every town in that area, both parties will run out of their members and there will still be hundreds of towns unsupervised.

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I'll PM you, I have a hunch most of these Armenian sites are read by Turkish tanks.

Edited April 25, 2005 by TMNT

[TMNT]

Just one thing to add...

 

It is not nations that dictate borders. The Roman Empire was one of the largest Empires to date, but where are Romans today? There are numerous other examples of borders shifting. Nations are born, while other nations crumble, but what remains the same are the people. Meaning, nations are only as good as the people that population them. You want land back, increase your population and let it spill over into your neighbor’s backyard.

Edited April 26, 2005 by TMNT

[Esayan]

How did we lose the Kars/Ardahan region?

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Turkey was preparing to conquer Armenia, not only from west, but also from east, as they were preparing an army in Azerbaijan. They gave the ultimatum, and without waiting for a response, started an offensive. To make it short, since relations between communist Russia and Kemalist Turkey was good, they ended up in an agreement, where Kars and Ardahan were to be left to Turks. And Armenia was to be sovietized. This is also how we lost Nakhitchevan. Until today, although it is a part of Azerbaijan, in case of an Armenian offensive against Nakhichevan, Turkey has a right to get involved. Actually if it wasnt for Karekin Njteh, we would loose the Syunik region- Karabagh, Zangezur, etc. and most likely have ended up with Yerevan and surrounding areas. I remember seeing some maps made by sickies connecting Azerbaijan w/ Nakhichevan, where Azerbaijan has Karabagh, Zangezur, and Nakhichevan in its territory.

Edited April 26, 2005 by Esayan

[Esayan]

I'll PM you, I have a hunch most of these Armenian sites are read by Turkish tanks.

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I agree. We should at least be wise enough to keep our disagreements to ourselves. It is like we open a flag spilling our guts out in front of everyone, which makes us look like fools.

[Armen]

herr Armen

 

Thank you, I will take that as a compliment. You placed yourself on the pedestal of victimhood again. You just can’t help, can you? Germans are a worthy nation and I commend them for their high morals.

 

First, if one is going to pretend to speak with expertise, then one is duty-bound to use precise terms and sentences.  Because all too often one relies on the "metaphorical", approximate, "you-know-what-I-mean" sense of a statement, while at the same time using its face-value meaning for other, contradictory purposes.  Having one's cake and eating it too is reserved for hypocrites with armies and memory-holes.  It's not a privilege taken to be granted by internet pundits.

 

Second, the empirical observation is that countries will go to war over a stupid bunch of rocks. And that includes quite "civilized" ones as well.  I will not attempt to analyze why that is so.  But the relevant "market" still functions in such a way as to assign a near-inifinite value to territory.  While it is not rational, it is nevertheless the case.  It is a rare occasion where a country lets go of territory in order to avert civil war.  And it is much rarer still to find a country that will simply back down and give away some stupid piece of land or a barren bunch of rocks with no resources under them without a bitter fight.  You will not hear them say "oh it's not worth the life of one young man; it's got no resources".  They should say that; but they don't.

 

Third, we are not really talking about the planet, but our own neighborhood.  Armenia is surrounded by countries that would readily sacrifice a sizeable chunk of their own and others' populations for a small piece of worthless land, especially if it involves losing it.  Much more so in the case of Turkey. So let's stop the BS about territory having lost its "value", because the evidence simply doesn't bear it.  And that's all the more reason why Armenia+Artsakh should focus on only its own territories for the foreseeable future, as the price of extracting territory from anyone in the neighborhood is quite high, as it already has learned.

 

So the outcome, namely what Armenia should focus on, is still the same as in the case of territory "having lost its value".  But getting the reasons right is still quite important. Even if it comes from someone you unjustifiably dislike for a rather stupid reason.

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First of all I don’t pretend to speak with expertise. I don’t speak with expertise at all. I am just exchanging ideas and opinions and I am free to use approximate notions as much as I want. Do not make ridiculous assumptions based on your own conduct. If you are that interested in my postings feel free to proofread them.

 

Your empirical observation that “countries will go to war over a stupid bunch of rocks” is wrong. Those “stupid rocks” always have strategic value because they either provide access to resources or sea lines (Darfur/oil, Spratley Islands/gas, fisheries, Paracel Islands/sealines). So it is not the rocks that countries go to war for. You are wrong in your observation of the real reasons for conflicts.

 

Many other conflicts (Karabagh, Taiwan, Abkhazia, Osetia, Transdnestria, Kashmir) have the status quo maintained over a considerable time span. This means that those who (according to your logic) should potentially go to war because of these territories value them less than something else. In many case that “something else” is economic stability. This means that economic stability is valued increasingly more than territory, which decreases the value of territory. If your assumption that “territory has an infinite value” was true than all these wars would be in active phase at present and they are clearly not. Indonesia gave up East Timor recently (following the Asian financial crisis).

 

In case of our neighborhood, any territory than countries in the region have an eye on has concrete economic value. Akhalqalak - for transportation routes (oil, rail etc), Nakhichevan – transportation routes. Actually, Azerbaijan was willing to negotiate the access to Nakhichevan though Meghri.

 

Moreover, as the processes of globalization, regional intergration and urbanisation continue (and this seems to be the course for the forseeable future) territory/land will lose value more. The only thing that can reverse this process is a global cataclism.

[Twilight Bark]

You placed yourself on the pedestal of victimhood again. You just can’t help, can you?

Another exceedingly accurate, piercing observation.

 

If you are that interested in my postings

I am not particularly interested in your "analyses" that indeed contain some obvious truisms in addition to some hopelessly wrong interpretations of them. It's just that I sometimes get irritated by them when they involve Armenia's future.

 

Your empirical observation that “countries will go to war over a stupid bunch of rocks” is wrong. Those “stupid rocks” always have strategic value because they either provide access to resources or sea lines (Darfur/oil, Spratley Islands/gas, fisheries, Paracel Islands/sealines). So it is not the rocks that countries go to war for. You are wrong in your observation of the real reasons for conflicts.

You seem to enjoy saying "you are wrong", "you are lying" at the drop of a hat. You really don't like me, huh? I wonder why. As for the rocks, it doesn't take great observational powers to realize that they always have some "strategic" value. If there isn't one currently, then they will invent one as a possibility for the future. The underlying "value" is pride. They can't back down, because they will lose face, and they invite further bullying in the future. Not because the low-margin business of fishing or deep-sea mining is so critical to their existence.

 

My intention here is not to convince you; you are just another clannish peasant that is going to turn into "somebody" by the power of a "diploma", in the absence of true competition. My intention was to prevent others from being misled.

 

Indonesia gave up East Timor recently

Not without a quasi-genocidal campaign first.

 

I will refrain from discussing this issue further today, as I have no time left. Maybe later, but hopefully not.

 

Regards to the readers.

[MosJan]

Friends !!! Friends !!! Friends !!! each one of you have your own opinion - fell free to post them - but please don’t get personal

[ED]

I agree. We should at least be wise enough to keep our disagreements to ourselves. It is like we open a flag spilling our guts out in front of everyone, which makes us look like fools.

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well said, and maybe also this kind of aprouch can set as an example for others in this forum