Esayan

Do not believe that Turkey is ready for anything. Even if there is a joint study, they do not expect any other result than their official position. They wont recognize anything other than that. Phantom22: There is really no other nation like Turks.. Dink was one of the Armenians who had guts to come out like that well before diaspora knew him. He is the only journalist to defend Armenian rights in Turkey.

Whenever u say something your word is either considered to be undermining the holocaust or you are considered an anti-semite...

I voted 3, as it seems the most logical one. However, bear in mind that deniers who go to the extent of joining this forum are not educatable.

Beste is a girls name, Nakharar. Makes you scream sometimes

Look my friend, even your politicians contradict with themselves when this issue is discussed. Just a couple of days ago, pm Erdogan said "we do not refuse our ancestors" Check Milliyet newspaper april 27. Your politicians acknowledge who their ancestors are. If you refuse the truth, that is your personal opinion. Do not mix it up with facts. I thought it was wrong when one of the members of this forum called you a retarded, but if you really think that Turkey had beaten English, French, and Italians by itself, you are seriously retarded. Just so you know, they retreated when they realized Anatolia was not worth keeping in the expense of loosing the other colonies (especially middle eastern Arab countries with rich oil reserves.) I can see how you are misinformed though, starting from 4th grade, Turkish history books teach children that Armenians filled the mosques with Turks and burned them alive (despite the truth is otherwise.) You are naturally one of those posioned children. Again if you dont know anything about your history, it is pointless to discuss. Ataturk was a former Ittihad and Terakki member. You cannor deny it, it is a historical fact. Plus, Ittihad and Terakki was the responsible party to overthrow Sultan Abdul Hamit, so how is it possible that they "defended" the Ottoman administration? I guess that is why Talat ***** has a monument in istanbul which was put up after an impressive ceremony years ago. I dont give a flying f.ck about what he says, nor does the world. This is not Ankara. Just so you are informed: after the Genocide and 1.WW, many Armenian survivors did return to Anatolia to their homes. When the Kemalist forces took over the control of Turkey and attacked the first Armenian Republic, they butchered the Armenian refugees on their way. This is the founder of the modern Turkey. Yeah, after all that is said, that is a real valuable analysis. Again, this is a typical propaganda that is fed to Turkish children. I said : "Turkey is the successor of Ottoman empire. If it is not, why the emblem of the Turkish presidency carries 16 stars, 1 of which symbolizes the Ottoman empire?" You refused this without giving me your reasoning, probably you have no idea what I am talking about. You can go talk to your president Ahmed Necded Sezer if you need more info on this. Just as one of the other members said, if Armenia starts a nuclear strike against Turkey today, and few days later it changes its administration, the new administration wont be responsible for the crime... Is this your reasoning? After killing that many people, it is easy to say "Yurtta sulh, cihanda sulh." You have to clean up the mess you caused first. By the way, Armenia, Armenian, and Armenian Genocide are written with capital letters you ignorant idiot. Armenian Genocide is the biggest pain of Armenian people, far more than it is a political issue. So, learn to show respect and do not put an idiotic "so-called" word in front of it. As said before it is a historical fact. We dont say "so-called turkey" do we?

Was there any confrontation between Turks and Armenian by the way? Except for Sarkissian's situation.

Those fliers that they handed out are written in a sophisticated language which these Turks&Azeris cannot understand. Our problem is that we dont understand their psychology. We have to learn how to bark, when it is necessary to talk to dogs. Turkish people feel like their authorities are their parents. In Turkish mind, the government does not exist for the individual, the individual exists for the government.

I hate when they say that. What was it suppose to be in order to measure up to "Holocaust?"

Turkey's understanding of "misak-i milli" (national borders) is not realistically drawn. It is like saying "this is gonna be our borders after removing Armenians, who reside in the last part of the empire which is left to us." Armenian genocide was one of the fundamental ideas to build a new Turkish nation state. That is why jihad was proclaimed against Armenians and Greeks, and they were claimed to be the internal enemies of the state. Authorities thought Kurds and other muslim minorities could be assimilated because of their religion. They were right to some extent. Lazs, Cherkezs and others did assimilate. However because of their large population and isolated life, Kurds did not. 1. Turkey is the successor of Ottoman empire. If it is not, why the emblem of the Turkish presidency carries 16 stars, 1 of which symbolizes the Ottoman empire? 2. Turkey is responsible for the Genocide of 1915, because Genocide took place in Turkey during young Turk regime, which was the path for the new Turkish Republic, as much as it was the Ottoman Empire. Ataturk was a former Ittihad and Terraki member. On the other hand, Ottoman empire is directly responsible for the Armenian massacres of 1895-96 which took place under Abdul Hamit II reign. In addition, some sick Turkish people claim that Kerkuk is a traditional Turkish city because bunch of formerly nomadic Turkomans live there... I bet if it was not for the oil, it could have been a traditional Arab city...! Too bad US did not show that much favoritism to give it to Turkey... As long as Turkey does not recognize the Armenian Genocide, supports Azerbaijan, and does not abandon its Turanist aspirations that it inherited from Enver an Talat, normal relations between Armenia and Turkey is not possible.

You welcome

I agree. We should at least be wise enough to keep our disagreements to ourselves. It is like we open a flag spilling our guts out in front of everyone, which makes us look like fools.

Turkey was preparing to conquer Armenia, not only from west, but also from east, as they were preparing an army in Azerbaijan. They gave the ultimatum, and without waiting for a response, started an offensive. To make it short, since relations between communist Russia and Kemalist Turkey was good, they ended up in an agreement, where Kars and Ardahan were to be left to Turks. And Armenia was to be sovietized. This is also how we lost Nakhitchevan. Until today, although it is a part of Azerbaijan, in case of an Armenian offensive against Nakhichevan, Turkey has a right to get involved. Actually if it wasnt for Karekin Njteh, we would loose the Syunik region- Karabagh, Zangezur, etc. and most likely have ended up with Yerevan and surrounding areas. I remember seeing some maps made by sickies connecting Azerbaijan w/ Nakhichevan, where Azerbaijan has Karabagh, Zangezur, and Nakhichevan in its territory.

Do you really know how many live where? What are these numbers 10m, 30m... Who is going to settle one Tashnag here one Hunchag there. Before making ridiculous statements, one must understand It is a matter of interests, and if there is enough support, anything is possible. When we say western Armenia, that means Wilsonian Armenia. That was the only modern map drawn by a western power as Western Armenia, which was ratified in Sevres. If you do not take it as a basis, you do not have anything. Those "dzovits dzov gotchvogh Hayastan" maps that we have are nothing but tools to satisfy ourselves. Although it is a long term plan, it is not impossible. If you ask me what is impossible to take back, my answer would be Cilicia. It is totally lost and there is no way we can get it back. We are not politicians here. We have ideas to share, and thats what we do. Questions such as "what are you going to do with 10m Turks?" cannot be answered, not because there is no answer, but because there is no exact answer. I prefer not to write my opinion on that issue, because we are not in a situation to consider it realistically. Who cares about Kars, Ardahan...They are not geopoliticaly important. Actually, they were supposed to be parts of Eastern Armenia technically, since they were incorporated in the Tsarist Russia, and were parts of the first republic. No one focusses on the danger that can be caused by a Turkish-Georgian allience. Remember where the Baku-Tiblissi-Ceyhan pipeline passes thru. By the way, these quatrains are taken from Nostradamus' prophecies, Century V. Check them out. 26 The slavish people through luck in war Will become elevated to a very high degree: They will change their Prince, one born a provincial, An army raised in the mountains to pass over the sea. 27 Through fire and arms not far from the Black Sea, He will come from Persia to occupy Trebizond: Pharos, Mytilene to tremble, the Sun joyful, The Adriatic Sea covered with Arab blood. I just thought they were interesting. Good luck!

Hey there, I just joined the forum. It is good to see people are discusing important issues in a civilized manner, despite some occasional flaws. As far as I can see, if the issue is reparation, it has to be discussed at two levels. I think it is important to theorize on the bilateral relations between Turkey and Armenia, besides thinking of the issue on a level of world politics. It is painful, but the reality is, we have just a little importance for the world powers, except for being a tool to play against the Turks when its convinient for them. When I emphasized on bilateral relations, the crucial point here is understanding the other side's psychology. Those of us who read Groong, the Armenian newspapers or the other news sources has probably seen the recent study that indicated the level of awarenes and recognition of Armenian and Turkish peoples of eachother. My point is, even though Armenian people know Turks better than Turks know Armenians, we still have to educate ourselves on how Turkish government and Turkish society operates. I want to state my point of view first. Despite the great odds, I do not see achieveing to the goal of acquiring the Western Armenia as an impossibility as long as we remain commited to this ultimate goal on both society and state levels. It is not a luxury to have the Western Armenia for Armenian people. It has to be our ultimate goal, because without the western terrritories of our homeland, it is impossible for an Armenian state to survive, especially because of its given geopolitical situation. The importance of the Western Armenia is not a subject of discussion. Armenia, having its traditional enemy states on its both sides( Turkey and Azerbaijan), with a large Azeri population in northen Iran, and the possibility of the resettlement of deported other Turkish elements to the Southern Georgia, is seriously rounded by Turks even today. Russia-Armenia-Iran allience is not a barrier against Turkey's Turanist pursuits, as long as Turkey has a border with Georgia. Georgia is a weak and unreliable country as history tells us. Therefore, for the sake of having an access to the Black sea, and isolating Turkey from Georgia, Western Armenian lands has to be acquired. Not only Kars and Ardahan, but the Wilsonian Armenia. Before achieveing this goal, it is absurd to talk about the issues of populating, industrializing or urbanizing those areas. So, the question is how to acquire those lands. The way I see it, our problem is the seperation between the factions, resulting in confussion. In other words, we dont know what we want. If we do not believe what we want, which is true justice, is achieveable, how can we expect it to become real? In fact our internal problems go beyond the political division. We have to question how nationalistic we really are. In the end, how many of us went on to settle to Armenia? I really do not care if Turkey recognizes the genocide or not. It is like asking a murderer to confess his crime, and then setting him free. Some Armenians say modern Turks are not responsible for the genocide, while the others dare to say that if the Armenian commitees (Tashnaks, Hunchaks, etc.) did not cause the civil unrest, this would not happen. The bottomline is that we have a weak Armenia, and a strong Turkey whose sick policies still cause suffering. If you think something is impossible, look at Israel. There was no Israel 60 years ago, and the modern Palestinians are not responsible for the deportation of Jews 2000 years ago. However they did it. Modern day Turks have way more responsibility and guilt for our suffering than poor Palestinians' responsibility for the suffering of the Jews. My only hope is that one that we will take our lands back just as the way Jews did. P.S. I condemn Israeli policies towards Palestinians. I just admire their patience and strength for remaining as a people for two thousand years.