Erdogan: 'it Is Up To The Armenians To Apologise'

[Takoush]

now, this is not my guilt. I did not do anything, why should I guilty, because she have a nature like flame?

 

Zurder; even though I've had conversations with you many weeks ago, I must have been so powerful that you're still charging at me with words without having any conversations with me now. Did I get under your skin that much?

 

Well, I must have been very powerful indeed.

Edited November 29, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

What do you mean you don’t agree with me? How dare you? What the hell do you know about the Ottomans anyway? Just kidding!

yalpa:

 

Good job. I see you have mastered your brown nosing technique to its maximum. You make a great childish jest to beg some words from Domino the Quebecer by what you have produced above.

Edited November 29, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

Arpa,

 

You are foaming at the mouth again. This is only a forum of a small group of regular posters. I know of only one who has any official capacity, and he has not posted lately. He is the one who you despise. Raffi Hovanissian, son of a gentle scholar who I have had the pleasure of acquaintance, is trying to make the ROA a more honest society. Turkey is under the world magnifying glass. Get serious dude (or dudette as I surmise-you are too emotional to be a man), what transpires here doesn't amount to a "hill of beans."

phantom:

 

I will take this to the Chit-Chat Forum as I have something to say to you.

[Arpa]

Arpa,

, what transpires here doesn't amount to a "hill of beans."

You said it.

Then why are we all "foaming at the mouth" and letting that twerp lead us by nose, so much so that our very own "house" is being torn apart.

The hell with him, his Erdogan and his Atatrik.

[Arpa]

Wow Arpa, a little exaggeration, maybe?

 

Take it easy, you're giving much too much credit to Zurderer. He is trying to convince himself that he is right, the rest has nothing to do with him.

 

As for the cat thing there, I don't get it?? we seemed to have adopted the word "gadoo" from the Assyrians in the fourth century, why not Turks adopt it from Armenians?? what does that have anything to do with the "autocidal, fratricidal and sororicidal cacophony"

 

...my two Van cats are demanding....

That whole cat thing was to show that whereas these people who did not even have a word for that beast before they met us, now they are pulling the strings. I did not want to advertise the more than a hundred sites talking about the Van Cat (we have spoken about this in length some time ago), none of them does even mention the A word, they all claim to be T**kish.

As to we having borrowed from the Assyrians, the jury is still out as to who is the borrower and the borrowee. All evidence point to PIE "Kato", and you know who the original authors of PIE are. The reason it is generally assumed that we borrowed is, once again generalization by some European aermenologists who had concluded that Armenians are customarily borrowers rather than borrowees.

[DominO123]

Yalpa, I've checked few books, some place the term modernization [of the] as following the Tanzimat, but you are right, there seem to be an official classification, since Piterberg, in his book An Ottoman Tragedy: History and Historiography at Play, has a section, with a defined "Early Modern," and uses the term modern, even though it is always preceeded by the term "early."

 

But, seems that he himself bring the problem I had with such a classification on page 147, even thought limiting himself to term classical etc.

 

It might be safely argued that without such abstractions the social and human sciences might not be thought or written. The issue is therefore not to question the mere use of a given cognitive filter but to try and draw the elusive line, regarding concrete cases, between two ways of using it. In the first, an abstraction makes intellectual discourse possible and may even enhance its insight, whereas in the second an abstraction (sometimes the same one) becomes a fetish, an end in itself that is repeatedly described and reproduced. The problem with “the classical age” is that it is closer to the second use than to the first. The consequence is twofold. Regarding the alleged classical period, it is rarely asked whether it was classical at all and if so in what ways; it is rather presupposed to have been so. Regarding the so-called middle period (the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries), the common starting point is, reductively, that it is “post” one thing (the classical age) and “pre” another (the Tanzimat). Thus the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries in Ottoman history, and the history of the Ottoman state in particular, suffer from the syndrome of the “middle child. ” Paradoxes and apparent contradictions abound. For instance, the classical model and its concrete articulations are implicitly assumed somehow to have always been there, at the Ottomans' disposal. Thus Geza David, in an overview of the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans and Hungary, gives the impression that the acquisition and administrative integration of these core territories were achieved along the lines of a classical, established pattern. The historicity borders on the absurd, for even if there was such a classical pattern it must have been formed and shaped while Rumelia was being acquired (roughly 1350 –1550) and could not have already been there.

 

Then he developpes Inalcik correction of his own thesis in 1980.

 

Peirce writes: The seventeenth century. ... Discarding the vocabulary of decline, recent studies employ terms such as "transformation," "reform," and even "modern- ization" to describe institutional developments in this period.

 

So, I guess the period name for that century is something official(I'll add this data in the Ottoman Empire entry and add a section, on Wikipedia when I have time). But they use the term modernization continiusly with the term Tanzimat, Filiz Turhan in her book The Other Empire: British Romantic Writings about the Ottoman Empire, attribute to Mahmud II a large part of the modernization.

 

As with the reforms of Sultan Ahmet, such innovations associated with the West were quite foreign to the average Turk, and therefore were difficult for many to abide. In addition, many of these changes brought about immediate results that adversely affected the lives of many Ottoman citizens; for instance, food prices increased, and European imports hurt local merchants. As Mansel writes: "Mahmuds modernization programme was a revolution from above, which gave his subjects a feeling of insecurity and vulnerability" (258). Despite all these impediments to change, the sultan accomplished much and successfully ushered in the real age of Ottoman reform, the Tanzimat era of the nineteenth century.

 

In short, substitute my modern era with Tanzimat.

Edited November 29, 2005 by QueBeceR

[Z'areh]

That whole cat thing was to show that whereas these people who did not even have a word for that beast before they met us, now they are pulling the strings. I did not want to advertise the more than a hundred sites talking about the Van Cat (we have spoken about this in length some time ago), none of them does even mention the A word, they all claim to be T**kish.

As to we having borrowed from the Assyrians, the jury is still out as to who is the borrower and the borrowee. All evidence point to PIE "Kato", and you know who the original authors of PIE are. The reason it is generally assumed that we borrowed is, once again generalization by some European aermenologists who had concluded that Armenians are customarily borrowers rather than borrowees.

 

 

Arpa, as discussions about Van cats do not belong in this thread I would like you to join me (as Anahid has done) to a more appropriate section, how about the section under "Other", please join me there I have a surprise for you.

[zurderer]

[/b]

 

Zurder; even though I've had conversations with you many weeks ago, I must have been so powerful that you're still charging at me with words without having any conversations with me now. Did I get under your skin that much?

 

Well, I must have been very powerful indeed.

 

This is not a power game, and I am only a simple peasent. No need to feel very powerful

 

I have no problem with you, but someone accused me with creating a discussion between you.

 

Then why are we all "foaming at the mouth" and letting that twerp lead us by nose, so much so that our very own "house" is being torn apart.

 

I am realy curious when will you accuse me to attack your sacred churchs and holy grounds. Be careful, I am armed with last generation type of keybord. Deathly weapon.

[phantom22]

This is not a power game, and I am only a simple peasent. No need to feel very powerful

 

I have no problem with you, but someone accused me with creating a discussion between you.

 

Then why are we all "foaming at the mouth" and letting that twerp lead us by nose, so much so that our very own "house" is being torn apart.

 

I am realy curious when will you accuse me to attack your sacred churchs and holy grounds. Be careful, I am armed with last generation type of keybord. Deathly weapon.

 

This is all indicative of "Armenophobia" and "Turkophobia." There is an elephant in the room that no one talks about.

 

My great-grandfather and his brother developed true and long-lasting friendships with very influential Turks. Theirs was a symbiotic economic and social relationship that only ended when a madman physician was placed in power. I say to the Turkish government, end it. Become a free country. Settle your differences with your Christian minorities and the Kurdish minority. End this mutual phobia by resolving the outstanding issues. We Armenains are not in a position of power to do this. It is in the hands of the Turkish leadership.

[zurderer]

This is all indicative of "Armenophobia" and "Turkophobia." There is an elephant in the room that no one talks about.

 

My great-grandfather and his brother developed true and long-lasting friendships with very influential Turks. Theirs was a symbiotic economic and social relationship that only ended when a madman physician was placed in power. I say to the Turkish government, end it. Become a free country. Settle your differences with your Christian minorities and the Kurdish minority. End this mutual phobia by resolving the outstanding issues. We Armenains are not in a position of power to do this. It is in the hands of the Turkish leadership.

 

You are right, That is your mistake, Armenians binded them with Turkey. They were wasting their energy for something, they cannot do. For their own sake, they should waste their energy, something productive, not a black hole.

 

For accepting our guilt against armenians and Kurds. I dont hope it much. Nationalist who made this crimes will not apogolise for them. Unfortunately, nationalism is still powerful and now it is more stable, because It is not an expansionist nationalism, but a defensive nationalism. Maybe EU will change it, or maybe will not.

[yerli]

There is no hope for Turkey.

 

How could Erdogan say such a thing? Apology? I really think that their EU membership is in big trouble. France will never let them in. Ditto Germany.

They will be blackballed by a few countries.

 

Their strategic influence is waning also. Hopefully a pro-US Kurdistan will be established in northern Iraq.

 

Armenia has to try harder to forge ties with the US. It seems that Rumsfeld is in Baku negotiating for a US base in Azerbaijan.

The kurds are playing with fire when the oil is over in Iraq (scientists beleives max 50 years) and If the US leaves Iraq then who will portect kurds from Arabs and Turks.

Stop rely on US. The world is going to be end. Revenges for sure be executed by victims.

[yerli]

There is nothing to negotiate with Turkey!

 

We can negotiate with Americans the amount of the annual institutional "help" granted to the Armenian government in order to make possible the complementary policy of the Armenian government towards USA and the use of Armenian air space for "their" war against terrorism.

 

We can negotiate with Russia the future of the Russian military bases in Armenia (their location, terms, etc.) that would best suit Armenian and Russian interests.

 

We can negotiate with Canada, France, Germany and Russia the location of the new Nuclear Power Station.

 

We can negotiate with Iran, Georgia, Ukraine, and Russia the future route of the Iranian natural gas pipeline and the supplies of Iranian gas to Europe.

 

We can negotiate with Georgia a multitude of issues of mutual interest and to deepen our good neighborly relations.

 

We can negotiate with Azveristan the future of Nagorno-Karabagh (Artzagh).

 

But there is nothing to negotiate with Turkey. It is in Armenia's best interest to keep the Armenian - Turkish border sealed.

 

PS: "Europe" was born in Asia! I will write about it in the History forum one of these days.

You are right the border certainly keep closed.There is no reason to open the border.

[yerli]

I speak for all forward-minded Armenians when I say this:

 

Erdogan---

SIKTIR!

 

It is really fits with your mouth.

[Vanetsi]

It is really fits with your mouth.

 

Excuse my Turkish, but I have something that will really fit your mouth.

[yerli]

Excuse my Turkish, but I have something that will really fit your mouth.

give it to your mom or if it really fits to zour grand mother

[gamavor]

give it to your mom or if it really fits to zour grand mother

 

It is funny when such a thing comes from a representative of a nation of bastards in the literal sense of the word. Illegal children of raped christian women. By his own confesion he is a turk with bulgarian and greek blood.

 

Do you miss your mom in Maastricht Mr. Turk? You know Dutch have some nice great looking mamals who are capable of pronouncing such complicated sounds such as Moooo and Meeeee

Edited January 22, 2006 by gamavor

[Vanetsi]

give it to your mom or if it really fits to zour grand mother

 

Now listen kakoglu, being of a ligitimate race in every sense of the word I would not involve myself in such incestuous acts. But let your mother and grandmother know that the Vanetsi will be right with them

 

Again, excuse my Turkish.

[Vanetsi]

Afendi how about this: I'll come to mosque with you next time to extend a hand of friendship.

 

I won't be praying of course.

 

Just one thing: make sure your mother doesn't bend over too far, eh? I'll be ready.

 

 

 

 

Excuse my Turkish-- especially the ladies in this forum (sorry Anahid jan!).

Edited January 23, 2006 by Vanetsi

[ED]

Afendi how about this: I'll come to mosque with you next time to extend a hand of friendship.

 

I won't be praying of course.

 

Just one thing: make sure your mother doesn't bend over too far, eh? I'll be ready.

Excuse my Turkish-- especially the ladies in this forum (sorry Anahid jan!).

 

Vano eh hedo? there are kids in this forum, he is an idiot and i would advise you to stop responding to his posts

 

and everybody please lets ignore this fool till the is ready

[Takoush]

Vano jan:

 

This stupid HAYVAN dead turk doesn't deserve to get your nice blood to turn it upside down. Just ignore him and he'll go away. Once hayvan always hayvan. What do you expect from idiotic turks.

 

They don't deserve a tiny spec of you, or a small piece of your hair as they say it in Armenian.

 

Mazit teln ankam chi arjer sa eshegge. Ede inchbes vor esav, as eshoun esadzneroun garevoroutyoun anqam mi dar.

Edited January 23, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[vava]

Guys - I agree that what Yerli has said is complete nonsense. But let's try and rise above hurling insults... By responding in such a fashion to his posts you're merely playing his game.

 

Best policy is not to feed the trolls - otherwise they'll keep coming around.

Edited January 23, 2006 by vava

[phantom22]

What Armenian in their right mind would want to open the border now?

 

You are right the border certainly keep closed.There is no reason to open the border.

[phantom22]

Guys - I agree that what Yerli has said is complete nonsense. But let's try and rise above hurling insults... By responding in such a fashion to his posts you're merely playing his game.

 

Best policy is not to feed the trolls - otherwise they'll keep coming around.

 

Why do you folks get "down in the gutter" with him?

[Vanetsi]

You all are completely right. I apologize for what I said; it was cruel and unnecessary. Everyone has a right to his own opinion, even if that opinion is very contriversial.