Eastern Armenian-western Armenian

[Arpa]

If Hovnes' message is not clear enough, let me clarify it.

Please! All!

LEARN ARMENIAN!! Be that of Tourian or Terian. Be that of Sevag(Ruben Chilingirian) or Sevak (Paruyr Ghazarian).

Not eastern, not western, not northern, not southern... JUST PLAIN OLD ARMENIAN.

Only then we will (NOT!!) see the line.

Edited May 28, 2007 by Arpa

[Johannes]

Standardization would have occured at some point, and the one that would have been selected would be the one with the most ECONOMIC backing. In Western Armenia, that translated to Istanbul dialect.

 

Look at the world. Why has English become the de factor standard language of communication of the world? Because the U.S. dollar had become the de facto standard exchange.

 

It's not surprise that the Istanbul dialect was standardized upon, and not that of Musa Ler!

 

Սիրելի Շահան, մենք գաւառի բարբառները յիշեցինք. պարզապէս ըսելու համար անոնց, որոնք կը կարծեն թէ՝ այժմեան արեւմտահայերէնն էր մեր պապերու լեզուն (ի մասնաւորի, խօսքը հնչիւնաբանութեան մասին էր):

 

One can claim to be descended from Ourfa, but not speak the dialect of Ourfa. The reason is that we STANDARDIZED Armenian around the dialects of two regions:

1) Istanbbul --> Western Armenian

2) Ararad district of Russian Armenia --> Eastern Armenian

 

There was no Turkification and no "Russification" in these two processes. They were steps taken CONSCIOUSLY and VOLUNTARILY by 2 distinct groups of Armenian intellectuals, respectively, in Istanbul/Europe for Western Armenian and Tiflis/Moscow for Eastern Armenian.

 

Սիրելի Շահան, այս ամէնը հասկնալի եւ ընդունելի է: Մեր զրոյցը՝ հնչիւններ են Այբուբենի:

 

 

[Johannes]

Բwas invented to sound like Beta as in Bartholomew/ԲարթողոմեոսԲարեւ Barevw not Parev/ Պարեվ

Տ was invented to sound like the Greek Tau as Troy/Տրովադա not Թրովադա

 

Թոյլ տուէք համեստաբար ներկայացնեմ. մեր գաւառաբարբառով (պապս) «Բարի լոյս»ը ԲԱՐԼՈՍ BARLOS կարտասանէին: Մինչ այսօր, բազում հայերէ կը լսեմ Barlos բառը:

 

another one about this dialect... in many cases, and i have no idea why, when, or how to distinguish this cases, gyumretsis (and i know this will have Arpa happy) pronounce the Ո in the beginning of the word as "o" and not "vo"... as in ոչխար [ochxar], ոսկի [oski], etc...

 

Այդ բարբառի մէջ պահպանուած է Մեսրոպեան «Ո» տառի ճշմարիտ արտասանութիւնը, որ միշտ latin O եղած է. այսինքն՝ բառի սկիզբը, միջատեղը եւ վէրջը: Սակայն արեւմտահայերէնն ու արեւելահայերէնը (եւ այլ բարբառներ) այդ տառի իսկական հնչիւնը կորսնցուցած են բառի սկիզբը, դարձնելով՝ ՎՈ: Երբ կը կարդանք բարբառախառն գրականութիւն, եւ կը նշմարենք այսպիսի բառեր՝ օղորմի (եւայլն), կը կարծենք որ բարբառախօսները սխալ (աղաւաղուած) հայերէն կը գործածէին, բայց իրականին մէջ այդ բառը, իր իրական արտասանութիւնն է, որ պահած է բարբառին մէջ, այնպէս որ պէտք չկար «օղորմի» գրելու, այլ ուղղակի ողորմի:

Edited May 28, 2007 by Johannes

[Johannes]

ԻՍԿԱԿԱՆ արևմտահայերեն ԿԵՆԴԱՆԻ ԼԵԶՈՒՆ ապրում է Գյումրիիում և Զավախքում

 

Սայլաւորը սարէն կուգայ, իմ յարը հեւ ի հեւ կուգայ

 

Մեր Ջաւախքի սէգ սարերը...(դու շարունակիր Սաս ջան)

 

Կամ՝

 

Ձախորդ օրերը ձմրան նման կուգան ու կերթան (տե՛ս վարդահուրի «Մարգարիտներ» շարքը)

 

Բայց ոչ՝ «գալիս են ու գնում»

 

Գուսան Ջիվանի երգերը շա՜տ կը սիրեմ:

 

Վահան Տերյանը, Ավետիք Իսահակյանը, Դերենիկ Դեմիրճյանը, Հովհաննես Շիրազը, Գուրգեն Մահարին, Եղիշե Չարենցը, Վահան Թոթովենցը, Վահագն Դավթյանը, Պարույր Սևակը, Սիլվա Կապուտիկյանը և շատ ու շատ ուրիշներ, իրենց բարբառով և արմատներով արևմտահայ էին:

 

Այո՛, մի քանի օր առաջ կը կարդայի Աւետիք Իսահակեանի բարբառախառն քերթուածներէն մին, նկատեցի թէ որքա՜ն արեւմտահայերէն է: Ան ունի եւ այսպէս (գրական արեւելահայերէն), եւ այնպէս (հարազատ բարբառով՝ արեւմտահայերէն-Շիրակի բարբա՞ռ) գրուած բանաստեղծութիւններ: Թերեւս Վենետիկեան օրերն ալ ազդած են իր վրայ:

 

Տեսնիմ կոր, ֆորումը իրար է էկէ, ամեն մարթ իր էշն առաչ կը քշե: = Տեսնիմ կը, օր(=որ) ֆորումը իրար է էկէ, ամեն մարթ իր էշն առաչ կը քշե:

 

Կեցցես, ապրես Սաս: Ես յարգում եմ այն մարդուն, ումից մի բան եմ սովորում:

 

Արդիոք կիւլբէնկ նշանակի կարմիր, վարդագոյն խալ?

 

Հնարամիտ եւ շատ սիրելի Արփա, դիպուկ նկատումներդ անպակաս ըլլան:

 

Վարդ Պատրիկի վերաբերեալ կարդացած եմ՝ Ազդակի էջերէն եւ Ասպետ Մ.ի գրիչէն:

 

Արդարեւ այդ ընտանիքի ծագումը ներկայացնելէ աւելի, լեզուական խնդիր մը պարզաբանել կը միտէի:

 

 

[RemainFaithful]

I was starting to think about what Johannes wrote, and I remembered the 2 names of the apostles Bartholomew and St. Thaddeus. How are these spelled in Armenian? Th -> ---- and B -> ----

 

How about about Գագիկ? In WA, we pronounce it kakig, which is spelled differently and more correctly by the Armenians of Iran, for example, which is something like gagik.

 

It seems that we have really lost the true pronounciations of the different letters.

 

At school, we used to complain to our Armenian teachers about the letters that were pronounced the same way, but written differently. We used to complain during the dictation period and asked why we needed two letters for k (գ,ք) for r (ր,ռ) for t (դ,թ) for p (բ, փ) ch (չ,ջ) v (վ,ւ) for h (հ,յ) for tz (ց,ձ).

 

There's no other explanation, but to admit that we, who speak WA, have lost the pronounciations.

 

I remember only one teacher told us that Armenians in the past used to pronounce each letter differently, but didn't explain why we didn't anymore.

 

If we hadn't lost the pronounciations, the dication periods would have been much easier!!! At least we could have distinguished them when the teacher pronounced, rather than memorizing how each word is written!!!

[Gor-Gor]

I was starting to think about what Johannes wrote, and I remembered the 2 names of the apostles Bartholomew and St. Thaddeus. How are these spelled in Armenian? Th -> ---- and B -> ----

 

How about about Գագիկ? In WA, we pronounce it kakig, which is spelled differently and more correctly by the Armenians of Iran, for example, which is something like gagik.

 

It seems that we have really lost the true pronounciations of the different letters.

 

At school, we used to complain to our Armenian teachers about the letters that were pronounced the same way, but written differently. We used to complain during the dictation period and asked why we needed two letters for k (գ,ք) for r (ր,ռ) for t (դ,թ) for p (բ, փ) ch (չ,ջ) v (վ,ւ) for h (հ,յ) for tz (ց,ձ).

 

There's no other explanation, but to admit that we, who speak WA, have lost the pronounciations.

 

I remember only one teacher told us that Armenians in the past used to pronounce each letter differently, but didn't explain why we didn't anymore.

 

If we hadn't lost the pronounciations, the dication periods would have been much easier!!! At least we could have distinguished them when the teacher pronounced, rather than memorizing how each word is written!!!

 

Everyone agrees that Western Armenian has changed the way certain consonants are pronounced. Everyone also agrees that Eastern Armenian has as well, to a lesser degree.

 

The issues remaining are:

 

1) Was Western Armenian's consonant-shift "bad"?

2) If so, should Western Armenians change the way they pronounce the consonants today?

3) If so, is it possible for Western Armenians to change the way they pronounce the consonants today?

4) If so, to what pronunciation system should Western Armenians revert? The way Eastern Armenians pronounce the letters today? Or the way Mesrob Mashdots intended the letters to be pronounced?

 

You see, it is #4 which is most troubling a barrier for those who preach that Western Armenians should change the way they pronounce 10 consonants. The consonant shift in Western Armenian was natural and unavoidable, taking into consideration the circumstances of the time. Just as Eastern Armenian pronunciation evolved, so did Western Armenian pronunciation.

 

[Arpa and Johaness - Yes, I am WELL AWARE that what I am calling "Western Armenian" is based on the dialect of Constantinople. The fact that standardized Western Armenian is based heavily on that dialect was a matter of necessity and circumstance. So be it.]

Edited May 28, 2007 by Gor-Gor

[Arpa]

Everyone agrees that Western Armenian has changed the way certain consonants are pronounced. Everyone also agrees that Eastern Armenian has as well, to a lesser degree.

===

[Arpa and Johaness - Yes, I am WELL AWARE that what I am calling "Western Armenian" is based on the dialect of Constantinople. The fact that standardized Western Armenian is based heavily on that dialect was a matter of necessity and circumstance. So be it.]

All I have to say is:

ՕՐՀՆԵԱԼ Է ԱՍՏՈՒԱԾՆ ՄԷՍՐՈՊԻ. ԱՄԷՆ

By george-george, Gor Gor!

Do I sense that we may have a convert here? Ss opposed to Mr. Shahan Ejectivian?

Edited May 28, 2007 by Arpa

[Էլիա]

Նոյնիսկ եթէ կ'որոշուի, որ արեւմտեան հայերէնին հնչիւնբանութիւնը պիտի փոխուի, ինչպէ՞ս պիտի կատարուի: Արփա, երբ դուն ըսիր, որ մենք միայն պարզ հայերէն սորվինք, ո՛չ արեւմտեան, արեւելեան, եւ այլն, ճշգրտօրէն ի՞նչ կը նշանակէիր՝ Գրաբարը՞, Դասական Հայերէնը՞...

[Arpa]

Նոյնիսկ եթէ կ'որոշուի, որ արեւմտեան հայերէնին հնչիւնբանութիւնը պիտի փոխուի, ինչպէ՞ս պիտի կատարուի: Արփա, երբ դուն ըսիր, որ մենք միայն պարզ հայերէն սորվինք, ո՛չ արեւմտեան, արեւելեան, եւ այլն, ճշգրտօրէն ի՞նչ կը նշանակէիր՝ Գրաբարը՞, Դասական Հայերէնը՞...

Ոչ ոչ: Արեւելեանը եւ Արեւմտտեանը ոչ մի վէճ չունին, ոչ ողղագրական (գուցէ երբեմն) եւ ոչ ալ շարադրական. թէրեւս այլ միայն ձայնագրական: Սա ընդհանրապէս պիտի յայտնուի որ մեզմէ ոմանք որքան խուլ են, երբ մենք տառադարձնենք Լատիներէնի որտեղ ԲԱՐԵՒ- ը դառնայ ՓԱՌԷՎ /PAREV, կամ շրջուած, David -ը դառնայ ԹԱՎԻԹ/TAVIT, քան թէ ԴԱՎԻԴ կամ ԴԱՒԻԴ. Կասեմ ԴԱՒԻԴ քանի նրա իսկական աղբիւրը Dawoud//Dawid/Daoud է որտեղ Ւ- ը հավասար է W -ի.

 

[Armenak]

What remains to be asked is whether it's ktal or tkal.

[annannimusss]

Arpa, where do you know Alen Jendian from. He's a nice guy from a nice family.

[Gor-Gor]

Ոչ ոչ: Արեւելեանը եւ Արեւմտտեանը ոչ մի վէճ չունին, ոչ ողղագրական (գուցէ երբեմն) եւ ոչ ալ շարադրական. թէրեւս այլ միայն ձայնագրական: Սա ընդհանրապէս պիտի յայտնուի որ մեզմէ ոմանք որքան խուլ են, երբ մենք տառադարձնենք Լատիներէնի որտեղ ԲԱՐԵՒ- ը դառնայ ՓԱՌԷՎ /PAREV, կամ շրջուած, David -ը դառնայ ԹԱՎԻԹ/TAVIT, քան թէ ԴԱՎԻԴ կամ ԴԱՒԻԴ. Կասեմ ԴԱՒԻԴ քանի նրա իսկական աղբիւրը Dawoud//Dawid/Daoud է որտեղ Ւ- ը հավասար է W -ի.

 

Hey, you almost went a whole day without insulting us!

 

Ուալլա պրաւօ!

 

Tomorrow's a new day anyhow...

[Gor-Gor]

All I have to say is:

ՕՐՀՆԵԱԼ Է ԱՍՏՈՒԱԾՆ ՄԷՍՐՈՊԻ. ԱՄԷՆ

By george-george, Gor Gor!

Do I sense that we may have a convert here? Ss opposed to Mr. Shahan Ejectivian?

 

I can't imagine what gave you that impression?

 

We have all been in agreement of the facts that I had stipulated in my post. As for the 4 "remaining issues," you and I have different answers about all four of them, I am sure.

[Arpa]

Hey, you almost went a whole day without insulting us!

 

Ուալլա պրաւօ!

 

Tomorrow's a new day anyhow...

US? Who are those US? If you have not yet gathered that I am one of those US???....

Wallahou billahi!!! You speak such good wallahi-billahi Armenian. Barawoo! Wallahi bilahi ilaki aydan.

Some of you may hav alrady dismissd me s anarabophobe or hebrophobe. Let me ask you. Linguistically speaking. What does Semitic Arabic and Hebrew or Asiatic Turkic have to do with Indo-European Armenian?

Edited May 28, 2007 by Arpa

[Gor-Gor]

US? Who are those US? If you have not yet gathered that I am one of those US???....

Wallahou billahi!!! You speak such good wallahi-billahi Armenian. Barawoo! Wallahi bilahi ilaki aydan.

Some of you may hav alrady dismissd me s anarabophobe or hebrophobe. Let me ask you. Linguistically speaking. What does Semitic Arabic and Hebrew or Asiatic Turkic have to do with Indo-European Armenian?

 

Us = Deaf Western Armenians

 

I'm glad you enjoyed the "walla." I knew you would.

[Armenak]

Arpa, Gor-Gor was obviously joking. The use of words such as "wallah" are discouraged by teachers of any dialect of Armenian, I'm sure.

 

In fact my teacher (WA) even discouraged usage of words such as "oto" and encouraged us to start using "inknasharj" instead.

[AK-47]

Arpa, Gor-Gor was obviously joking. The use of words such as "wallah" are discouraged by teachers of any dialect of Armenian, I'm sure.

 

In fact my teacher (WA) even discouraged usage of words such as "oto" and encouraged us to start using "inknasharj" instead.

Yeah of course it is discouraged. As I have previously said "wallah, yallah, lan, wallaw, dzo, push, perushan, hayvan, geut, pidj, yawo, beh" etc etc etc. are ALL street slang that are used for fun. They are NOT encouraged anywhere, especially in schools.

 

We were actually yelled on when we even made jokes with the teacher. I remember once in high school, our Armenian teacher kept going on and on and on about a story by a 19th century author (it was a story about an Armenian shrimp seller in Ottoman empire) and as a joke to liven the mood of the class, I said «ուալլա պարոն, ղաֆա պէյին չի մնաց պէհ, պարզ ձգէ ուզածնիս ընենք:» Teacher got mad and said «այս փողոցային լեզուն փողոցը գործածէ եւ ոչ իմ հետս՝ անշնորք» ... and I found myself on the other side of the door to the classroom

[Shahan Araradian]

Շահան,

 

երբ դուք «գոնե»-ի փոխարեն գրում եք «քոնէ», ապա պատրաստ եղեք պատասխանելու արցախցու հարցին.

 

-Էս տղան շա՜շ ա, ո՞ւմ քոնէմ...

]

As I've mentioned before, գ and ք are pronounced identically in Western Armenian. I won't waste my time and look everything up manually in a dictionary. I'd rather have a spell-checker do that for me when one is available.

 

(I will let you know when the basic version is available again online later this week. I am also recruiting Armenian language experts -- mostly for morphology -- to help me in the rules engine for the full-blown Armenian spell-checker for hunspell that will allow us to develop a plug-in for Mozilla Firefox and OpenOffice. If you understand Western Armenian and/or Eastern Armenian morphology inside-out [or can train yourself with this knowledge] and would like to help create the very FIRST open-source Armenian spell-checker, please respond. The source of the rules engine and the plug-ins will be made open-source under the BSD license, which means it will be free, open source, and can be used for any purpose.)

 

Until then I CONSCIOUSLY will misspell!

Edited May 29, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

If Hovnes' message is not clear enough, let me clarify it.

Please! All!

LEARN ARMENIAN!! Be that of Tourian or Terian. Be that of Sevag(Ruben Chilingirian) or Sevak (Paruyr Ghazarian).

Not eastern, not western, not northern, not southern... JUST PLAIN OLD ARMENIAN.

Only then we will (NOT!!) see the line.

While I agree with your (Arpa) and Johannes's points on phonology (although there remain a few more letters that we do NOT know how they sounded in Classical Armenian) Johannes's points only address PHONOLOGY.

 

Even if we agree upon a phonology (that it be closest to the Classical Armenian phonology) the following two issues remain:

 

1) Morphology

կ'ուզես or ուզում ես? Ծաղիկներուն or ծաղիկներին?

 

There are three choices: Classical morphology, WA morphology, or EA morphology.

 

2) Orthography

I think the obvious choice (for purists) would be to use traditional orthography, and abandon the soviet one.

 

Until these open questions are answered, there WILL be a distinction between Western Armenian, Eastern Armenian, and Classical Armenian.

Edited May 29, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

He invented Պ to sound like the Greek Pi, but those deafened illiterates, just like youknowwho in Istanbul, when they saw the letter they erroneously read it as B/Բ as in Bolis/Polis, and they wrote Baronian/Բարոնեան as Պարոնեան.

Փ This letter was designed to sound like the Greek PHI as in “philosophy/pharos/փիղ/Ֆիղ. But those idiots in Kilikia who did not know the Mesropian phonology had to imports the F from French.. It seems like Armenians had a problem with the sound F, just like many other people still do. Some Indians cannot pronounce F or V, they will pronoune “five” as “pibe”.

Բwas invented to sound like Beta asj in Bartholomew/ԲարթողոմեոսԲարեւ Barevw not Parev/ Պարեվ

Տ was invented to sound like the Greek Tau as Troy/Տրովադա not Թրովադա

Թ This Was invented to sound like the Greek Theta as in “theory”. The reason why we write Թովմաս Թադտեոս

Դ this was invented to sound lie the Greek/Latin D/Delta so we can write Դանիէլ not Taniel/Թանիէլ

Արփա, (Arpha, not Arpa) [but who knows? Maybe the name was coined AFTER փ became /pʰ/. So perhaps it really is Arpa...]

 

Շնորհաւոր ըլլայ: You have successfully passed Part 1 of Challenge #2 (but that was only the practice test). Here is Part 2 of Challenge #2:

 

Now tell us how the following sets of consonants were pronounced in Classical Armenian using the IPA (or any other method):

կ, ք, գ

ծ, ց, ձ

ճ, չ, ջ

Edited May 29, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[SAS]

բ = բիբ

պ = պապ

փ = փիփերթ

 

դ = դարդ

տ = տատ

թ = թաթ

 

գ = գորգ

կ = կրակ

ք = քաք

 

ձ = ձի

ծ = ծիծ

ց = ցից

 

ճ = ճանճ

չ = չանչ

ջ = ջոջ

[Johannes]

կ, ք, գ

ծ, ց, ձ

ճ, չ, ջ

Կ=C=ق

 

Կոնստանտին/Կոստանդին Constantin

 

Ք=CH=K Քրիստոս Christ

 

Գ=G Gabriel

 

Ծ = TZ ?

 

Ց = TS ?

 

Ձ = DZ

 

Ճ = Չ բայց ինչպէ՞ս

 

Ջ = DJ Ջորկայեվ

 

 

[vahan79]

First of all, no English speaker would say "my near." Instead, they would say "near me." Perhaps that may clarify the rest. "Mot" is not a noun and therefore it cannot be 'possessed' by a person or object. "Seghani vot" (leg of a table) is not the same as "seghani mot" (near the table). The first is a possessive (requiring a noun like "vot") and the second is a locative (requiring a preposition of place like "near" in English, or a postposition like "mot" in Armenian). The confusion with nouns in Armenian is that they look the same as possessives or locatives (e.g. seghani). For pronouns, this is not the case. Just like in English, where there is a difference between "my" and "me," so too in Armenian there is a difference between "im" and "indz." "Im" is possessive, "indz" is locative, in this particular case. So we get "im vot@" (my foot) and "indz mot" (near me). Which is why certain grammarians have opted for "indz" as being the 'correct' form in this case.

 

Okay, I'll accept your speculation in this case, as truly I am not sure which is the most correct. All I know is that the standard wisdom is that "im" and not "indz" is considered to be the proper form in EA (I can't speak for "certain grammarians").

 

But let me point out something. I was in no one implying that someone in English would say "my near." I was simply giving the literal translation. What you miss is that it is possible that in Armenian, prepositions/postpositions are conceptualized as "spaces" (noun-like) rather than as descriptors. Thus, to an Armenian ear "my near" makes sense because it is an area. The fact remains that BOTH are used.

 

I tried thinking about how this compared to Greek, but it was hard because in Greek, the indirect object (to me) pronouns and the genitive pronounces (of me) are the same. So, that doesn't help. (e.g., pisw mou = behind me, but literally "behind to me" or "behind of me"...unclear). BUT, the difference is that in Greek nouns don't use genitive. You don't say "pisw tou dentrou" (behind of the tree), you say "pisw apo to dentro" (behind from the tree).

 

What still doesn't feel right is that the postpositions take post positions. I mean, why is it "seghani vra" and not "vra seghani". It seems that if it were any case other than genitive/possessive, it would be the other way around. Anyway, it seems like things like this should be well-settled, not up for speculation....

 

As a side note, Armeniapedia says this:

 

Prepositions and postpositions in the Armenian language rule over genitive, dative and accusative cases.

 

1. With genitive case are used the following postpositions: առանց without, վրա on, մոտ near, տակ under, շուրջ round, մեջ in, համար for, հետ with, պես like, առթիվ in connection with, շնորհիվ thanks to, վերաբերյալ about (concerning), and others. E.g., սեղանի մոտ near the table, ծառի տակ under the tree, սենյակի մեջ in the room, ծառի վրա on the tree, երեխայի հետ with the child, տոնի առթիվ in connection with the holiday, etc.

 

2. With dative case are used the prepositions ըստ by, ընդդեմ against, contrary. E.g., ըստ ցուցակի by the (a!) list, ընդդեմ նրա ցանկության contrary to his wishes (wish?).

 

3. With accusative case are used the prepositions դեպի to, towards; մինչև till, up to; նախքան before. E.g., դեպի քաղաքը towards the town, մինչև դաշտը up to the field, մինչև ձմեռ till winter, նախքան նրա վերադարձը before his return.

 

Note: In written language the accusative case is ruled by seldom used prepositions առ by, ի to.

 

E.g., առ այսօր by this day, առ մեկը մայիսի by the first of May, ի հակադրություն contrary to, ի գիտություն (take it) into consideration, etc.

 

4. With the ablative case are used the postpositions զատ except, բացի besides, հետո after, ի վեր beginning with. E.g., դրանից զատ except that, քեզնից բացի besides you, դասերից հետո after lessons, այդ օրից ի վեր beginning with that day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vahan79]

Is Vahan the same guy who couldn't tell the difference between "im" and "indz"?

 

Nairi djan, thanks for this! You gave me an opportunity to point this out:

 

(1)

 

I do know the difference. Open any Armenian kid's school book and learn how they are taught "im hamar" and "im het", not "indz hamar" or "indz het" is the correct version. It is true that we do us "indz" (just as we use "indzi" which technically doesn't exist AT ALL in EA), but that doesn't stop it from being the "less correct." Again, none of this matters to me, except that when I made my post I included both for clarity's sake.

 

(2)

 

But, this leads me to point two. You keep missing the point about "gor." You ask why WA can't just have one present tense form like EA does, that is, if it works for EA why can't it work for WA. But doesn't that miss the point? Shouldn't YOU have to prove why we shouldn't use "gor" in WA? Is the burden not on you and Arpa, etc. to convince US that we should alter the natural version of spoken WA? Indeed, it is. You will fail though, because there is not good reason to change the language now! In fact, changing it to be "gor-less" will not make it easier to understand as you have posited. We are ALL used to "gor" in WA, changing it will be artificial and awkward, and to what end? To please you? Arpa?

 

How is this related to the "im"/"indz" thing? Well, you have advocated so heavily for "indz", despite the fact that it is only "certain grammarians" that think it should be used as the "correct" form. Why is it that you advocate for the spoken colloquial version to be deemed the "correct" form when it comes to "indz/im", but not with "gor"? Also, what about "indzi" in EA, should we scrap that?

 

(3)

 

All attempts to "purify" languages fail and/or backfire because language is a living thing that changes on its own. You can't gather everyone together and force the gor out of them. Soi, even as a practical matter (assuming we agree with you and Arpa as a philosophical matter), it won't happen.

[RemainFaithful]

(I will let you know when the basic version is available again online later this week. I am also recruiting Armenian language experts -- mostly for morphology -- to help me in the rules engine for the full-blown Armenian spell-checker for hunspell that will allow us to develop a plug-in for Mozilla Firefox and OpenOffice.

 

Wow! I'm looking forward to testing it.