Eastern Armenian-western Armenian

[Shahan Araradian]

Mr. self acclaimed grammarian and linguist, you should know by now that western armenian grammar is defective and there is no difference between the simple present tense and present continuous tense. There is also no «կրաւորական» in western armenian.

vartahoor

LOL. "Defective"

 

Չի յարգեցիր որ յարգուիս, բարեկամ...

[vartahoor]

Իրա՞ւ կ'ըսես: Արեւմտեան հայերէնը գոյութիւն չունե՞ր՝ թուրքերուն արշաւանքէն առաջ: Կրնա՞ս հաճիս զիս չբաղդատել ուրիշ հայերու հետ: Մարդ մը ըսա՞ւ, որ ես իրենց հետ կը համաձայնիմ: Այս «փոստ»էդ վերջ, դուն կ'ըսես, որ «խօսակցական» արեւմտեան հայերէնին մասին կը խօսէիր (կամ ուրիշ մօտ բան մը), բայց իրականութեամբ կը կարծե՞ս որ իւրաքանչիւր արեւմտեան հայը թրքական բառեր կը գործածէ: Ես չեմ գործածեր (այլ «կոր»ն ալ չեմ գործածեր):

Սիրելի Էլիա,

Իմ լաւ ծանօթներից մէկը որը AUB-ում անգլերէնի պրօֆէսոր է գրել էր՝ In Beirut most of the armenians send their children to nonarmenian scchools and downgrade the armenian language. My brother who is determined to send his two children (ages 3 and 4) to armenian schoo, is constantly ridiculed by his friends for his decision. Here almost over 60% of the armenians use 25% arabic, 25% turkish and 25% english and the rest a self made armenian.

These are not my words but my friend's. Believe me it is the same here in LA.

vartahoor

 

[Էլիա]

No. That's my original research, actually. Western Armenian textbooks discourage its use. But I claim that "-gor" actually has use, and that's why it exists.

 

You seem to disagree. Can you tell us how to say "I am walking" (present continuous) in Western Armenian? in Eastern Armenian?

Շահան, քանի որ ուսուցչուհիս կ'ըսէ, որ «կոր» գործածելը սխալ քերականութիւն է, ես պէտք է իրեն հետ համաձայնիմ... Գիտեմ, որ «կոր»ը աւելի շիտակ կը լսուի, բայց դեռ, անպայման չըսել է, որ շիտակ է:

 

Նոյնիսկ շատ քիչ գիտեմ արեւելեան հայերէնի մէջ, կը կարծեմ, որ «I am walking»ը «Ես գալում եմ» կ'ըլլայ անոր մէջ:

Edited May 24, 2007 by Էլիա

[Էլիա]

Սիրելի Էլիա,

Իմ լաւ ծանօթներից մէկը որը AUB-ում անգլերէնի պրօֆէսոր է գրել էր՝ In Beirut most of the armenians send their children to nonarmenian scchools and downgrade the armenian language. My brother who is determined to send his two children (ages 3 and 4) to armenian schoo, is constantly ridiculed by his friends for his decision. Here almost over 60% of the armenians use 25% arabic, 25% turkish and 25% english and the rest a self made armenian.

These are not my words but my friend's. Believe me it is the same here in LA.

vartahoor

Եւ ի՞նչ քան հայեր կան Հայաստանին մէջ, որ մեծամասնութեամբ ռուսերէնով կը խօսին:

[Arpa]

Exactly. "-gor" in Western Armenian really takes the place of "-ing" in English. There's no other way to have present continuous... (There's always a reason for something...)

You are not only deaf, you are also blind.

I have written a million times what "gor" is and where it comes from. The latest of which was today right here; http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=15...mp;#entry199266

You say you are of Ourfa/Edssia heritage. Now let's hear something in Edessia dialect at the above thread, instead of all that bankrupt WA=Grabar nonsense.

Edited May 24, 2007 by Arpa

[Էլիա]

You are not only deaf, you are also blind.

I have written a million times what "gor" is and where it comes from. The latest of which was today right here; http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=15...mp;#entry199266

You say you are of Ourfa/Edssia heritage. Now let's hear something in Edessia dialect at the above thread, instead of all that bankrupt WA=Grabar nonsense.

No one said that WA=Գրաբար... We're saying that EA < Գրաբար > WA.

 

[Shahan Araradian]

Շահան, քանի որ ուսուցչուհիս կ'ըսէ, որ «կոր» գործածելը սխալ քերականութիւն է, ես պէտք է իրեն հետ համաձայնիմ... Գիտեմ, որ «կոր»ը աւելի շիտակ կը լսուի, բայց դեռ, անպայման չըսել է, որ շիտակ է:

 

Նոյնիսկ շատ քիչ գիտեմ արեւելեան հայերէնի մէջ, կը կարծեմ, որ «I am walking»ը «Ես գալում եմ» կ'ըլլայ անոր մէջ:

Այո այդ ճիշդ է: Եւ արեւմտահայերէնի մէջ de facto կ'ըլլայ «ես կը գալեմկոր» եւ ասոր մէջ սխալ կամ ամչնալիք բան չ'կայ: It is what it is. Every language has a different way of conveying the meaning of a present continuous tense of a verb, and adding the "-gor" suffix happens to be the way it's done in Western Armenian.

 

There's no set rules. Humans create the rules by speaking the language. I see no harm in using the "-gor" suffix as long as there's no other way to convey its meaning.

[Gor-Gor]

Dear Elia and company, can I ask you an honest question?

First off. Your (nick) name is not էլիա ,but Եղիա, whatever the Jewish f** that may mean. Are you related to Yeghia/Allen Jendian of Fresno?

Is someone paying you to promote that so called WA ? What is your mission in life?Has someone or someones assigned you as champions and protectors of that so called WA? What is your purpose? That that so called WA, please allow me to once again call it turkahayeren become the official language of Yerevan? What will the benefit be?

At different times you and your teammates have indicated that you have a problem reading understanding the so called EA. If you mean you have a problem with language of Sevak then I am sorry to say that your mastery of the Armenian language is limited, in plain English ? You don‘t know the Armenian language.,eat or west. If you are saying that you have problem understanding the street language and slang of Yerevan, then I am with you as the latter is not the so called EA, the language of Sevak and Terian but it is russahayeren. Even I will have problem understanding russahayeren that is interspersed with Russian words foreign to me. I will have problem to fully understand parskahayeren that is interspersed with Persian words and expressions too. Just as a Yerevanite will have a problem understanding bolsahayeren interspersed with Turkish and beirutahayeren loaded with Arabic words and idiomatic expressions. In this case we are not talking about EA or WA , we are talking about turkahayeren, arabahayeren and russahayeren, and by extension …. amerikahayeren. Has any Yerevantsi ever say they don’t understand the language of Varuzhan? Oh! Yes! At times I also have trouble to fully understand Varuzhan’s and Siamanatos language , and have to look up the vocabulary section. That has nothing to do with EA or WA, it is simply a sign of our limited knowledge of the ARMENIAN language in its fullness.

The whole problem is not within those so called EA and WA but in the transliteration into Latin and English. Only then will the bankruptsy of that so called WA be revealed. Just imagine a name like Gagik/Գագիկ transliterated to Qaqig/Քաքիկ. Is that why western Armenians don’t name their sons “KAKIG”. You may not observed that, as we speak, the two vernaculars are coming together ever faster than any time in history. The WA -s are using the “oum” system more than ever just as the EA-s are using the k@” system. Are you following the trend, or are you still mired in that quagmire of Ejmiatsin and Antelias sh*t? As we speak, I am looking at one the latest issues of and American-Armenian weeklies written in English where the sad news of the demise of our national songbird is announced. Where it says -“Gohar Gasparian , the Armenian Niaghtingale is moutned”. Let me repeat - GOHAR GASPARIAN, not Kohar Kasbarian. Once again, here we are talking about transliteration and phonetics where all the sh*t hits the fan so to speak, as in Gagik and Qaqig. Why o I bring the example of Gohar Gasparian? It is because I have had along battle with the said weekly when they vehemently insisted that the then president of Armenia was Levon Der Bedrosian(LDB), not Levon Ter Petrosian(LTP). Some of the editors agreed with me but they had to succumb to the whims of the then editor in chief to whose ears Բ-Ben sounded like Փ-Pen and ԴDa sounded like Թ-Tho..

Some of our self appointed linguists have suggested that WA is the genuine heir of Grabar/ԳՐԱԲԱՌ Classical Armenian, not Qrapar/ՔՐԱՓԱՌ. One wonders where they get that impression. Read Grabar again and tell us where the LINE between east and west is. During the lifetime of our best Grabar writers, be they Khorenatsi or Shnorhali there was no LINE. It simply was HAYEREN. Not bolsahayeren, turkahayeren, yerevanhayeren or russhayeren, there was no straight vertical LINE between Gumrahayeren or Beirutahayeren. Yes. There were, as now, many diffused zigzag lines between one village and the other, but there never was that THICK LINE between Istanbul and Tiflis.

Dear Elia, please wake up and smell the sourj . That THICK LINE between the East and the West is rapidly THINNING. LEARN ARMENIAN, NOT EASTERN OR WESTERN , JUST PLAIN OLD ARMENIAN.. And when you do that , this whole thing of a line between EA and WA will be just a cruel joke imposed on us by Mehmet on one hand and Ivan on the other..

To end it all, please allow me to ask one more time- Dear Elia,who is paying you to champion and promote Zahle-Hayeren as opposed to Zangezour-Hayeren?

 

Might I suggest you seek psychological counseling?

[Shahan Araradian]

Սիրելի Էլիա,

Իմ լաւ ծանօթներից մէկը որը AUB-ում անգլերէնի պրօֆէսոր է գրել էր՝ In Beirut most of the armenians send their children to nonarmenian scchools and downgrade the armenian language. My brother who is determined to send his two children (ages 3 and 4) to armenian schoo, is constantly ridiculed by his friends for his decision. Here almost over 60% of the armenians use 25% arabic, 25% turkish and 25% english and the rest a self made armenian.

These are not my words but my friend's. Believe me it is the same here in LA.

vartahoor

It all depends who your friends are!! It all depends on who's in your social network and who you've chosen to hang out with! I can point you to rich or poor, educated or uneducated in any population.

 

And these statistics obviously depend on what the sample population looks like and the biases of the person conducting the survey. If one took a survey of Woodside, California, they'd deem the world to be filled with multi-billionaires.

 

In a nutshell, these statistics mean nothing.

Edited May 24, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Shahan Araradian]

You are not only deaf, you are also blind.

I have written a million times what "gor" is and where it comes from. The latest of which was today right here; http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=15...mp;#entry199266

You say you are of Ourfa/Edssia heritage. Now let's hear something in Edessia dialect at the above thread, instead of all that bankrupt WA=Grabar nonsense.

I will again heed the Yiddish proverb:

"Don't approach a goat from the front, a horse from the back, or a fool from any side."

Edited May 24, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Էլիա]

Might I suggest you seek psychological counseling?

Ախ Կոր-Կոր, վերջապէս հասար: Այս ցանցը խենդութեան վերածուեցաւ՝ քու բացակայութեանդ պատճառով:

Edited May 24, 2007 by Էլիա

[Gor-Gor]

Hostility is when our above friends suggest that Istanbul Armenian, I call it turkahayeren is the more civilized and correct one and that EA is uncivilized peasant language. When they suggest that WA is the legitimate heir to Grabar.

 

 

No one has ever claimed that. You live in a dream world where imaginary posters post imaginary things.

 

When GorGor insists that “gor” is proper Armenian.

 

 

Right. That's exactly what I said. I drew a distinction between spoken vs. standard Western Armenian. STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

 

don’t know the difference between “door/door” and “toor/chisel”

 

 

Oh, I see you finally realized I was right...

[Gor-Gor]

Incoherent?

My points are the most coherent of them all.

Your English is apparently inadequate.

Incoherent is when a linguistic subject becomes a political battle, and another reason for division, "ours is correct, yours is peasant" etc.

Specially considering how graceful and gracious those eastern speakers have been while our western heroes have not spared any insults.

One more thing. You read wikipedia, mickey mouse media.

 

Wow. You make me sad.

[Էլիա]

Այո այդ ճիշդ է: Եւ արեւմտահայերէնի մէջ de facto կ'ըլլայ «ես կը գալեմկոր» եւ ասոր մէջ սխալ կամ ամչնալիք բան չ'կայ: It is what it is. Every language has a different way of conveying the meaning of a present continuous tense of a verb, and adding the "-gor" suffix happens to be the way it's done in Western Armenian.

 

There's no set rules. Humans create the rules by speaking the language. I see no harm in using the "-gor" suffix as long as there's no other way to convey its meaning.

Ի՞նչ ըսել է «de facto»ն:

[Shahan Araradian]

Ի՞նչ ըսել է «de facto»ն:

Այսինքն թէեւ բան մը օրինաւոր չէ (օրինակ գիրքերու մէջ) այդ պէս կը գործածուի արօրեայ խօսակցութեան մէջ:

[Gor-Gor]

But when it came to EA and WA Gor Gor lost all his composure and credibility when he mixed orthography with idiom, not any different from that idiot Sargsian who also lost us when he mixed ortgography, idiom and composition .

 

Excuse me? When did I mix orthography and idiom?

[Gor-Gor]

Եթէ Canada-ն ուղիղ տառադարձնենք դա պիտի լինի ԳանաԴա -C=Գ D=Դ .

 

See Arpa, this is one of your problems.

 

One of the things you try to hide in your writings is the fact that you think EA is superior to WA. It's not just a matter of consonant pronunciation. It's a matter of your dislike of WA and your obsession with EA. The reason many of your posts do not logically make sense is because you try to claim you believe the 2 dialects are equal (barring WA's "Turkification"), but in reality, you hate the dialect.

 

Case in point: Why would you respond to Johannes in Eastern Armenian, when your mother dialect is Western Armenian and his mother dialect is Western Armenian. What you did is unnatural and shows a conscious effort within your mind to peruse Eastern Armenian. Again, nothing wrong with EA, but it does show an insight into your mind...

 

This is not an isolated instance, either.

 

 

[Gor-Gor]

Mr. self acclaimed grammarian and linguist, you should know by now that western armenian grammar is defective...

 

Just stop talking.

 

You could have gotten the same message across without showing your bias. But I guess that bias is just too strong to hide...

Edited May 24, 2007 by Gor-Gor

[Էլիա]

Excuse me? When did I mix orthography and idiom?

Կոր-Կոր, ուշադրութիւն մի՛ տար իր անիմաստ խօսքերուն:

[Gor-Gor]

Սիրելի Էլիա,

Իմ լաւ ծանօթներից մէկը որը AUB-ում անգլերէնի պրօֆէսոր է գրել էր՝ In Beirut most of the armenians send their children to nonarmenian scchools and downgrade the armenian language. My brother who is determined to send his two children (ages 3 and 4) to armenian schoo, is constantly ridiculed by his friends for his decision. Here almost over 60% of the armenians use 25% arabic, 25% turkish and 25% english and the rest a self made armenian.

These are not my words but my friend's. Believe me it is the same here in LA.

vartahoor

 

Have you traveled to Beirut? Aleppo?

 

I have.

 

And no, they don't speak "25% arabic, 25% turkish and 25% english and the rest a self made armenian." I've heard this expression many times, and it is highly, highly exaggerated.

 

The percentage of foreign words in spoken Western Armenian in Aleppo and Beirut is the same as the amount of foreign words in spoken Eastern Armenian in Yerevan.

 

I have been to all 3 cities and have heard all 3 local spoken languages.

[Էլիա]

Have you traveled to Beirut? Aleppo?

 

I have.

 

And no, they don't speak "25% arabic, 25% turkish and 25% english and the rest a self made armenian." I've heard this expression many times, and it is highly, highly exaggerated.

 

The percentage of foreign words in spoken Western Armenian in Aleppo and Beirut is the same as the amount of foreign words in spoken Eastern Armenian in Yerevan.

 

I have been to all 3 cities and have heard all 3 local spoken languages.

Exactly! And besides, that's "spoken" Armenian, not standard Armenian!

[AK-47]

Սիրելի Էլիա,

Իմ լաւ ծանօթներից մէկը որը AUB-ում անգլերէնի պրօֆէսոր է գրել էր՝ In Beirut most of the armenians send their children to nonarmenian scchools and downgrade the armenian language. My brother who is determined to send his two children (ages 3 and 4) to armenian schoo, is constantly ridiculed by his friends for his decision. Here almost over 60% of the armenians use 25% arabic, 25% turkish and 25% english and the rest a self made armenian.

These are not my words but my friend's. Believe me it is the same here in LA.

vartahoor

Bullcrap, Լիբանան եղեր եմ եւ նաեւ ընտանիքս Պուրճ Համուտէն է եւ բնաւ այնպիսի բան նկատի չէմ արած: Of course there will be a mix of "odar" words into the Armenian, this is inevitable as we diasporans do not live in Armenia but in "host" countries. Lebanon has been the heart of the Armenian diaspora for decades. I have met plenty of people from Lebanon and the majority can read and write Armenian. There are tons of Armenian schools in Lebanon. If no one is sending their children there anymore, I wonder how these schools are remaining open. People, including my parents, who immigrated from Lebanon often find themselves sending their children to Armenian schools in such places as the USA and Canada. Lebanon permitted people to preserve their Armenianness and this criticism is ridiculous. The Armenians in Lebanon have preserved their Armenianness better than other diasporans I find.

[Shahan Araradian]

Mr. self acclaimed grammarian and linguist, you should know by now that western armenian grammar is defective and there is no difference between the simple present tense and present continuous tense. There is also no «կրաւորական» in western armenian.

vartahoor

LOL!!! Just realized this! (Can you please cite your claims in the future. Book, author, page number, etc would be nice. At least a self-cooked example would be a good starting point.)

 

«կրաւորական» բայ == passive verbs

 

Vartahoor claims that one cannot express passive verbs in Armenian. For example, one couldn't communicate the following thought conveyed in English: "She was loved"

 

To prove that his statement is false, I will provide an example of an instance of a passive verb used in a Western Armenian sentence:

«Աղչիկը սիրուած էր:»

 

As in English or Latin, you can convert practically *any* verb in Western Armenian to a passive form.

 

Indeed, you can practically convey ANY thought from ANY human language using any OTHER human language. Hence it's ridiculous to claim that one language is "defective."

Edited May 24, 2007 by Shahan Araradian

[Էլիա]

Bullcrap, Լիբանան եղեր եմ եւ նաեւ ընտանիքս Պուրճ Համուտէն է եւ բնաւ այնպիսի բան նկատի չէմ արած: Of course there will be a mix of "odar" words into the Armenian, this is inevitable as we diasporans do not live in Armenia but in "host" countries. Lebanon has been the heart of the Armenian diaspora for decades. I have met plenty of people from Lebanon and the majority can read and write Armenian. There are tons of Armenian schools in Lebanon. If no one is sending their children there anymore, I wonder how these schools are remaining open. People, including my parents, who immigrated from Lebanon often find themselves sending their children to Armenian schools in such places as the USA and Canada. Lebanon permitted people to preserve their Armenianness and this criticism is ridiculous. The Armenians in Lebanon have preserved their Armenianness better than other diasporans I find.

LOL, my dad is from Lebanon, too! My mom was born in Kuwait. I know that my mom's family was originally in Syria (after escaping out of Turkey), but I'm not really sure if my dad's side was originally in Syria or not.

[Arpa]

No one has ever claimed that. You live in a dream world where imaginary posters post imaginary things.

Right. That's exactly what I said. I drew a distinction between spoken vs. standard Western Armenian. STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

Oh, I see you finally realized I was right...

I realize that you were right how?

Is it because you pronounce the name of that entryway ԴՈՒՌ the same as the English “door” as “tour/թուր” which means chisel. You’re not alone. Even one of our literary gods Petros Dourian did not know the difference when he deturkified their surname from Zmbajian(chisel maker) to Dourian which should have been Tourian/Թուրեան. And when our supreme god of WA literature Daniel (not Taniel please) totally shed his Turkish surname of Chboukiarian(pipe maker) to Varuzhan, just like Atom Yarjanian adopted Siamanto as his penname.. It has been over a hundred years since and we are still struggling with, can’t rid ourselves from that damn “turkahayeren”. Let me ask one more time. When is the last time you saw Varuzhan, Siamanto or Tourian use “gor”?

Ինչ կ’ըսես կոր ծո, լան ակա!!

Edited May 24, 2007 by Arpa