Turqeren Haryur Ev Mek

[Arpa]

Turqeren Haryur ev Mek.

Turkish 101

 

Some time ago there was an article in one of our weeklies where the writer, a well known Armenian intellectual was all but boasting that she could speak Turkish, relating her encounter with a NYC taxi driver of Turkish origin. The main message of the article may have been that we should engage in a person to person, people to people dialogue and educate them. However, I could not help but notice the writer's claim to fame if the fact that she could speak Turkish whereas that taxi driver not only could not speak Armenain, he could not even speak English.

Hurray!!!

Another feather in our cap!!

Of course, being who and what I am, I responded with as liittle sarcasm as I could as to why we pride ourselves for knowing Turkish while it should be the reverse. How many Turks speak Armenian? How many Turks even consider learning Armenian? Why not? Are not we the ones that have inhabited those lands for over 3000 years even before the world had heard of the Turk? Why is that we learned their language and not visa versa?

I can anticipate some of the responses.

 

"We were forced"!

 

Why is it that they forced us to learn their language and not us forcing them to learn ours? After all they were the "guests"!

 

"We are smarter than they are"!

 

Yeah right!! If we really are smarter than them then how come they made us learn their language rather than we teach them ours? Who is the smarter one?

 

Some time ago, on one the informational channels I saw a so-called Turkish archeologist hold up a stone tablet with Armenian inscription that even I could read and, looking directly into the camera he stated that it was some kind of "exotic extinct script that has not yet been deciphered".

They are obliterating every vestige of Armenian writing wherever they can find.

 

I don't want to sound totally negative. It is good that the language is being taught, after all it is an extensive language, geographically speaking and it may come handy in many ways, even in espionage.

Another revelation was that it has been taught at Ejmiatsin. One wonders why? Is it that are preparing missionaries to preach and proselytise in Anatolia?

 

And now we read the following;

http://www.armenianow.com/eng/?go=pub&id=200#

 

 

Language Link: New textbook makes Turkish more manageable for Armenians

 

By Gayane Mkrtchyan

ArmeniaNow Reporter

 

A new book, “Textbook of Turkish”, has just been published and is the first of its kind in “East” Armenia.

 

The language study book is composed of 15 units, with lessons that include information on phonetics and the lexical and grammatical systems of Turkish. It includes proverbs and texts and pieces of classic Turkish poetry. It is being recommended by Armenia’s Ministry of Education and Science as an official university textbook.

 

The authors of the book are Aleksander Safaryan, head of the chair of Oriental Studies, Yerevan State University, Ahot Soghomonyan, Turkologist, and Tiran Lokmagyozyan, writer and journalist from Istanbul.

 

“It is surprising that having lived decades under the Turkish reign, even hundreds of years side by side, no textbook (in Armenian) was published before,” says Safaryan.

 

Safaryan says the book is a good tool for Armenian businessmen visiting Turkey, as well as for schoolchildren.

 

“The textbook itself is not meant for schools but we use it as there is no other one,” Safaryan says. “I think it is right to teach Turkish in certain schools. How could one dare be ignorant of the language of a mighty neighbor; it is connected with the country’s political, security, defense and economic functions.”

 

The Nersissyan College of Echmiadzin is the only institute in Armenia where, since establishment in 1991, Turkish is taught as a foreign language.

 

“At first everybody would be surprised and criticize it, like, how could one learn the enemy’s language. I had one answer to that – it’s the enemy’s language that should be known,” says Hamlet Nahatakyan, head of the gymnasium. “We are neighboring nations and still have things to do with each other. We study French, English, Spanish but we forget that Turkish is also utterly indispensable.”

 

The subject in the college is taught twice a week in the 5th to 8th grades. Nahatakyan says that after getting the new books they have decided to teach Turkish also in the 9th and 10th grade. The gymnasium has purchased 80 books.

 

Armine Hakobyan, a gymnasium teacher, says: “At first we had no book at all. We used our own sources for the teaching process. The new textbooks are the best way of teaching.”

 

She says children often protest against learning the language but when teachers make clear to them the necessity of Turkish to them the protest lessens.

 

 

“We should be able to know our neighbors well and the first precondition for that is a good command of their language. This is the key to all the issues,” says Hakobyan.

 

The authors say that after finding sponsors they will publish four other volumes. The current edition published with the support of Turkish-Armenian philanthropist Selma Iskenteryoze consists of 1000 copies. The book also includes three dictionaries (vocabulary, scientific terms, abbreviations).

 

“Up to now in universities Turkish was taught with Russian textbooks where the Armenian lingual thinking is not taken account,” says Safaryan.

 

Turkish has been taught in Yerevan State University since 1943. Today more than a hundred students study the language. There’s an officially signed agreement with Ankara University, a preliminary agreement has been signed with Ankara Middle East Technical University, and there has been student exchange.

 

September 21-26 the authors of the book participated in the second assembly of the city of Kars and presented the book, for which they were awarded a medal by the Kars municipality.

[Boghos]

Once, a few years back, i was standing in front of the Armenian Church on 3rd Ave (NY). People had just left the church after mass and there was the usual post enlightenment socializing. I was just waiting for the store to open, I wanted to buy a few books, including a Sharagan compilation. But I digress. I saw one of these famous female self ascribed intelectuals (of course we have male ones, too) and in a few minutes the priest that took care of the bookstore and knew me somewhat came and said that she suspected I was from MIT...not as in Mass. Inst. of Tech, though

[Stormig]

Why would Turks not learn Armenian?

For the same reason they wouldn't learn Greek.

[Armenak]

Arpa, I had to bring this one back.

 

Yeah right!! If we really are smarter than them then how come they made us learn their language rather than we teach them ours? Who is the smarter one?

We are teaching them now!

 

Or at least one girl is. Apparently her Turkish co-author can speak Armenian. Imagine that.

 

See here: http://cmes.hmdc.harvard.edu/ecmes/features/kend_kendine

Edited January 30, 2007 by Armenak

[zurderer]

Yes it is. Oh well. I wasn't thrilled about learning turkish anyway. I guess I have to fight them face to face.

 

too sad, we should look your ugly face. Why dont you backstab us? It(To die) would be less painful than seeing your face and remembering it in our life time.

 

[phantom22]

Boghos,

 

Unfortunately we have MORE than our share of idiots, such as the female Armenian "intellectual" you refer to. I know these IDIOTS only TOO well. Numerous times I was treated poorly by the insiders at social functions at that Cathedral. I was not "Armenian" enough to suit them!

 

Boghos, the Cathedral you refer to is on SECOND Avenue, not Third Avenue. As for the diocesan bookstore, I frequented it many times while searching for my roots and found my ancestors in books purchased there after being raised as an odar surrounded by Herias and Anglos.

 

 

Once, a few years back, i was standing in front of the Armenian Church on 3rd Ave (NY). People had just left the church after mass and there was the usual post enlightenment socializing. I was just waiting for the store to open, I wanted to buy a few books, including a Sharagan compilation. But I digress. I saw one of these famous female self ascribed intelectuals (of course we have male ones, too) and in a few minutes the priest that took care of the bookstore and knew me somewhat came and said that she suspected I was from MIT...not as in Mass. Inst. of Tech, though

 

[Boghos]

Yes, you are right, it is on 2nd Avenue.I have been there countless times and for some reason I always say it is on 3rd.Even in the most recent visits....go figure...

[phantom22]

...and a few blocks west on the same cross street that the Cathedral sits (34th Street) is the century-old Armenian Evangelical Church.

 

The Cathdral is an architectural gem with a large usable plaza and the Evangelical Church is a historical cultural landmark.

 

Yes, you are right, it is on 2nd Avenue.I have been there countless times and for some reason I always say it is on 3rd.Even in the most recent visits....go figure...

Edited January 30, 2007 by phantom22

[Դրօ]

I've never seen any Armenian-speaking Turks, but my mother says that Turks who have Armenian wives can speak Armenian, or learn to speak it.

[Դրօ]

As for learning Turkish myself, I'm actually much more interested in learning Azerbaijani. I don't know why, I just am.

[Boghos]

...and a few blocks west on the same cross street that the Cathedral sits (34th Street) is the century-old Armenian Evangelical Church.

 

The Cathdral is an architectural gem with a large usable plaza and the Evangelical Church is a historical cultural landmark.

 

Indeed.I have walked by it several times, however calling it an architectural gem might be a stretch.

It is interesting that in Montreal, on Bernard Street there are both an Apostolic Church and an Evangelical one.In a neighborhhod with very few Armenians.

[Arpa]

Indeed.I have walked by it several times, however calling it an architectural gem might be a stretch.

It is interesting that in Montreal, on Bernard Street there are both an Apostolic Church and an Evangelical one.In a neighborhhod with very few Armenians.

Not tp forget Niagar Falls, NY where the entire Armenian population can be counted on the fingers of one hand, there are two (Apostolic?)Churches separated only with a chain link fence.

[Boghos]

Yes, Sourp Hagop and Sourp Sarkis.

[Arpa]

Above we saw that YU has started a Turqeren 101

And we read these;

====

Arminfo

2007-02-23 19:39:00

 

Turkey to invite Armenian language specialists for investigating

Armenian archives

 

Turkish History Organization chief, Professor Yusuf Halachioglu said

that Turkish historians will be taught Armenian in order to

investigate the Armenian documents in foreign archives, APA's Turkey

bureau reports.

 

Zaman reports Halachioglu to say that while both Armenian and European

historians are investigating Turkish archives, Turkish historians can

not investigate historical documents as they do not know Armenian.

 

The only scientist knowing Armenian is professor of Ankara University

Birsen Garaca. Halacioglu noted that after the amendment to the law

in Turkish parliament that will allow inviting specialists from

abroad, Armenian language specialists will be invited from abroad.

 

Halachioglu said that after the language courses are over Turkish

historians will be sent to make investigation in Armenian archives

abroad.

=====

PanARMENIAN.Net

 

Center of Armenology opening in Baku

23.02.2007 18:08 GMT+04:00

 

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Center of Armenology at the League

of Investigating Journalists is opening in the

`Azerbaijan' editorial office. 5 specialists, mostly

immigrants from Armenia, are working in the center.

Member of the Azeri Academy of Sciences Israfil

Mammadov, `a connoisseur Armenian psychology', who

used to work in Soviet Armenia newspaper in Yerevan,

is among them. Besides, specialists in the Armenian

issue will also collaborate with the center, which has

already established ties with the Erzrum University,

where a center on Armenian Genocide was earlier

formed, reports Echo Baku-based newspaper.

 

 

 

[Arpa]

Also, not to forget this thread;

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=15...amp;hl=ermenice

[phantom22]

Yes, Sourp Hagop and Sourp Sarkis.

 

I wonder which one of these my aunt belonged to before she married my Hye Catholic uncle.

Edited February 25, 2007 by phantom22

[Arpa]

Arpa, I had to bring this one back.

We are teaching them now!

 

Or at least one girl is. Apparently her Turkish co-author can speak Armenian. Imagine that.

 

See here: http://cmes.hmdc.harvard.edu/ecmes/features/kend_kendine

I had not seen this, and I am glad.

It makes one’s blood boil.

Where is the language police now that we need them.

Above it says that this Turk studied with James Russell at Harvard. It seems he learned nothing. Dr. Russell subscribes to the Mesropian transliteration where Բ is B, Գ is G, Դ is D etc.. Yet look at the table, the so called Ermeni Alfabesi and count with me. How many Ps, how many Ks, how many Hs and how many CHs, how many TSs, how many Vs etc.? So Բ is P just as Փ, and Գ is K just as Ք??

Why do some people take Mashtots for an idiot for having created so many duplications and triplications.!!

No wonder speakers of Eastern Armenian are critical of those who pretend to speak Istanbul Ermenicesi.

You say above - "At least one girl ..." That girl should make paper dolls rather than teach Armenian.

 

 

[Armenak]

Arpa, the Turkish historians probably want to learn the western dialect because it's the dialect that the majority of the Ottoman Armenians spoke.

[Arpa]

Arpa, the Turkish historians probably want to learn the western dialect because it's the dialect that the majority of the Ottoman Armenians spoke.

Dear Armenak, this is exactly where the problem is.

You do realize that this thread is about Turks learning Armenian, not about the so called “dialects”.

All this back and forth controversy, war of words, if you will, and at times downright insults and accusations is mainly because we confuse orthography and phonetics with the so called dialects. There was a time when we had dialects within the Western Armenian. At the present, for obvious reasons almost all of them are lost with the exception of Musayi Leratsi, mainly preserved by the enclave of Anjar, Lebanon. I’m not sure if the Zeituntsis, one of the last to speak their provincial language still pass it on to their progeny. There was a time when the Sabastatsis called and pronounced the name of their city Sebastia, not SePastia, when Kahrberdsis called their city KharBerD not KharPerT. All this went down the drains of the sewers of Istanbul.. This is where we, the so called Western Armenians provide ammunition to those self appointed “language police” who assume all WA is synonymous with Bourj Hammoud street language. As long as we recite AyP Pen Kim Ta ԱյՓ Փեն Քիմ Թա we have no leg to stand on.

Once again, to repeat myself for the umpteenth time, This issue has nothing to do with “dialects” , it is a matter of orthography and phonetics.

There must be over a thousand of so called dialects of the English language. All the way from Scottish to Welsh, to Cockney, to Bangladeshi and Zimbabweian, yet no matter how they speak, it is no one’s business, it is no one’s business as well how Armenians speak in their homes or on the street, yet when all of the above formally WRITE it is a whole different story. I have personally heard this. Regardless of te fact that English is one of the official languages of India, there those who cannot pronounce the letter F and the letter V, they will substitute F to P and V to B as in PiBe pounds to mean FiVe. Do they write PiBe when they FiVe? Have you ever seen where English speaking people interpret B as P, C as K and D as T. Some may pronounce TH as in theory as Teory, yet which official English site will advocate TH to be T. The Armenian Թ was meant to sound like TH as Thomas/Թոմաս, then why is it always transliterated as T as in Thagavor/Թագաւոր/Takavor/Տաքավոր? When we know that ԹԱԳ/thag is none other than the Pers-Arabic THaj?

Once again. Many and most of Western Armenian dialects have been lost, but there still are hundresd of dialects in that stamp sized country of Republic of Armenia. Gumretis have their own dialect, Aparantsis have their own which is often is a subject of jokes. I may still understand their so called dialect. But, for the life of me I still can’t decipher and understand the Artsakhtsi dialect. Do the Aparantsis and Artsakhtsis write in their dialect in literary and official communications? It is no one's business how people talk in their villages and homes. Does an Aparantsi write in their dialect when addressing a letter to the president or any official? Let’s go to artsakh.com and see how they write.

If we are going to talk about dialects let’ go, among many to the thread.below, otherwise let us mind our Ps and Qs and recognize the difference between orthography, phonetics , idiom, grammar and composition.

Yes, Artsakhtsis speak a funny dialect that even I cannot deipher, but let us go to their official website and see how they write, oficially, that is.

So! Which do you say should be our official "dialect" Artsakheren or that "sewers of Istanbul-eren" aka Western Armenian/Turqahayeren? What an oxymoron!!!

As long as we the so called Istanbulahayeren keep insisting that Բ equals P, Գ equals K and Դ equals T we allow those speakers of Yerevanhayern and Parskahayeren to have an open hunting season.

I GIVE UP, I DON'T THINK I AM GETTING MY MESSAGE ACROSS!

DAMN IT! IT IS IS NOT AYP PEN QIM TA it is AYB BEN GIM DA

Artsakh dialect;

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=13056&hl=

Edited March 1, 2007 by Arpa

[Armenak]

I understood Arpa.

 

And as for Russell, you say he subscribes to the Mesropian transliterations. Does he teach them as well? Because the Turkish student doesn't seem to use it.

[Arpa]

Often I get questioned, both in public and private as to what I base my point on the phonetic sounds of the Ayb Ben Gim.

Beside the fact that most debate is rather political than academic, like us vs. them, the answer is as easy as ABC.

The best and the easiest reading about it may be a book Language Connections by Sarkis Saryan. According to the internet it may still available at Amazon..

In the meantime, Ariane and others do this.

Write the letters of the Armenian alphabet;

Ayb Ben Gim Da and under each insert the Latin A B C D and each corresponding letter write the Greek alphabet as Alpha Beta, Gamma Delta and you will see why it is Ayb Ben Gim Da and not Ayp Pen Kim,ta A P K T but A B C D.

You can continue doing this to the rest of the consonants and see to which Latin/Greek letters they correspond.

If we could only depoliticized things that have nothing with politics it would be so much nicer and peaceful. This applies to both sides of the hayabazhan curtain East and West.

One of many sites;

http://www.amazon.com/Language-Connections...3564&sr=8-1

Edited March 7, 2007 by Arpa

[Shahan Araradian]

Arpa,

 

In my taste, Western Armenian pronunciations of Armenian words sound nicer to the ear than eastern Armenian ones. This was a result of centuries of exposure to Western European languages, namely French. That's just my taste, though. (I don't like ejective sounds, they're very un-European.)

 

("Ayp Pen Kim" sound more pleasant than "Ayb Ben Gim" which sound more կոշտ, at least to my ear.)

 

Anyways, how did you deduce that թ is pronounced "th"? I haven't come across this anywhere and would appreciate a reference. (It makes sense intuitively if I compare the Armenian name of Թադէօս to the English version of that name "Thaddeus." But this comparison doesn't prove the point.)

 

In classical Armenian, թ is supposed to be a regular 't', while տ is an aspirated 't' and դ is a regular 'd'.

 

FYI the ejective sounds in Eastern Armenian were borrowed from Trans-Caucasian languages (e.g. Georgian) and didn't exist in Classical Armenian. Ejective sounds don't exist at all in Western Armenian. In Eastern Armenian ejective sounds include tʼ (տ), bʼ (պ), tʃʼ (ճ), and tsʼ (ծ).

 

If թ was really 'th' then I wonder how the rest of the regular (i.e. non-aspirated, non-ejective consonants) sounds were pronounced in Classical Armenian: փ, չ, and ց. Certainly փ wasn't pronounced "f" even though փարոս == pharos, since ֆ would not need to have been introduced (unless if knowledge of փ as "f" was lost long before the need for the sound "f" centuries later...)

[Arpa]

Arpa,

 

In my taste, Western Armenian pronunciations of Armenian words sound nicer to the ear than eastern Armenian ones. This was a result of centuries of exposure to Western European languages, namely French. That's just my taste, though. (I don't like ejective sounds, they're very un-European.)

 

("Ayp Pen Kim" sound more pleasant than "Ayb Ben Gim" which sound more կոշտ, at least to my ear.)

I wish you had not said that. That is exactly what Mustafa Qaqaturq said.

Then again, since the topic here is Turqeren may be it is appropriate.

However, we are going off topic. My mistake. I should not have posted the above under this topic, as we can see this is about "turqeren" not "hayeren".

I will explain when we move over.

Shahan, with your indulgence I will move my post to another subject topic, and I wish you would too. There are many dealing with issue. I will move mine to “Eastern v Western.”

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=11...mp;#entry142028

Edited March 10, 2007 by Arpa

[Zartonk]

I wish you had not said that. That is exactly what Mustafa Qaqaturq said

 

Any sources/links/past threads Arpa?

[Arpa]

Any sources/links/past threads Arpa?

I am reluctantly responding here since I don't want to expand this thread any more.

Go to Hamshentsa and see how on page 8 neko responded to my comment "Kars Ha!!"

I wish Ali Suat were hezre to tell us how crude and un-european, un-istanbulese is the way those "peasants" in the interior is. Is it like when the Bostonians "pahk their cahs" as opposed to the Alabamanians? In case we forget, Boston and Alabama ae still members of the UNITED States, just like the Istanbulites and Karsians.

And as to sources, just search using his name-nationality-language and see how many hits you get.

Edited March 11, 2007 by Arpa