MJ

quote:Originally posted by Azat:hmmm, I am only getting 480k on my DSL. need to call Earthlink and BIT*&. I have cable connection. There was circuit problem with WorldCom yesterday, which had affected the entire Internet network, yesterday, as advertised. Seems that it has not affected West cost. Must be Khodja's first step to have the South east sunk under the ocean...

WorldCom sucks...

quote:Originally posted by Accelerated: quote:there are (at least there used to be until very recently) two essential, interrelated concepts in Armenian society: "namus" and "baroyakanutyun". (i can't even find equavalent words for them in English)I can add a couple more concepts "pativ" and "djigyar". And you cant find the equavalent words in English because these concepts dont exist in Western societies.....and if we were to listen to our Teacher we ought to have given them up a long time ago.........I would like to inform you that the words "namus" and "djigar" are brought to the Armenian society by the invadors. As far as the words "badiv" and "baroyakanutiun" are concerned, they have perfect analogs in Western Society - not just in its lexicon. These are "honor" - an inseparable attribute of Western Knights, for example, and "morality" - held on much higher levels in Western Societies than in the Middle Eastern or Caucasian cultures, for example.

quote:Originally posted by Twilight Bark: quote:Originally posted by hagarag:To paraphrase Barry Goldwater, I would greatly like the United States to be cut at the Mason-Dixon line and for the US South to drift out to sea and sink in the ocean. Better yet, when Saddam sends his atomic bomb to the US I hope that he sends it to a location in the South, preferably YOUR community in Georgia. You conservative Armenians continue to make a mess out of the future of our nation and the Diaspora. As Baliozian says 85% of Armenians in the Diaspora assimilate and soon disappear. As for the ROA, it is mainly allied with rogue states. Your comments to others in this forum sometimes are as insulting as your comments to me. It is your personality flaw. Hear hear. While Hagarag's anger is (by now) expected and understandable, .. Do you mean his anger due to his Celibacy ? quote:...his apparent enthusiasm for the wholesale genocide of a region populated by "undesirables" is "surprising", considering his stated feelings about such matters. Talat would be proud; except that he wouldn't want to lose the territory. Tsk tsk. But how about its impact on the environment, on the other hand? Khodja , Now be a good boy and take your PM medicine, please …

I would like to second the first opinion expressed by the Cat – the expressed attitudes on the subject of sexual freedoms are an outcome of the centuries of Islamic rule over Armenians. Evidently, such views are characteristic to the entire Asia Minor and Caucasus. Definitely, Armenian historians of the pre-Islamic domination period convey a different picture on the lifestyle of Armenians. I don’t mean to say that the pagan ethics has ruled in medieval Armenia, since from some point on the Christian tradition has taken over, but in the same spirit, most likely the attitude has been something like, “Yeah, virginity might bee good but, then, who am I to throw the stone?” On the subject of the “little Stalins,” … the Cat drifts again. The current Armenian generation has neither seen Stalin nor has been oppressed. Soviet Armenia has been the freest Republic in the Soviet Union enjoying widest freedoms, and the culture of Stalinism has not found home even in the worst 5% of the population. Additionally, the people of Armenia are one of the most open-minded segments amongst the people of Armenian ethnicity worldwide. Where does the Cat pull out such opinions from remains a mystery to me…

As far as I understand, such phenomenon has been alleged but no such evidence has been presented so far. I am afraid your understanding is out of date by a few years. If you do care about the subject, I suggest you read up on it (I, on the other hand, can't be bothered ). Your confusing the ozone-hole problem with global warming suggests that you have a long learning curve. But I am sure for an intelligent person it is a matter of a few days to digest the relevant literature. Dear TB, I definitely don’t know much about the ozone layer and global warming, and one of my points was that there is not much known about them. But I have once taken very successfully a graduate class in Stratified and Rotating Fluids from a well recognized guru in the subject (know, better to say have known, how to solve Navier-Stokes for laminar flow, for instance… ). My understanding has been that one of the alleged outcomes of Global Warming is the ozone layer. Maybe I am wrong – wouldn’t be ashamed to admit it. However, if the relevant literature may be digested in few days, then it should mean that there is indeed not much literature on the subject, wouldn’t it? I also think that some of the opinions by some of the best recognized experts that I have posted in this thread are of not that distant past. quote: One of the questions that I have never been able to find an answer to, is which law of physics contemplates that the temperature of the earth has to stay constant. Clearly, historically it has not been constant. That is a straw man argument. The first question to ask is something like "Is the current upward fluctuation explainable by the historic patterns of temperature fluctuations, with, say 95% confidence". If the answer is negative, i.e. the fluctuation is too big and fast to be characterized as "natural", then the second question would be about what we can or should do about it. However, I should admit that I disagree with your above-mentioned methodological approach to the problem, and I think the question formulated above may very well lead to misleading conclusions – maybe this is what many advocates of Global Warming hypothesis do? To be more specific, the answer to your question may be irrelevant, for example, if the ‘global’ temperature of the Earth is highly dependent/correlated (as a random process) on the solar activities, therefore the unconditional probability estimates off of that variable alone are of not much relevance, and things have to be seen in the context of the joint distribution of the above-mentioned two random processes. I am tired tonight – even left work quite earlier than I usually do. Besides, had more than enough random variables to gaze at all day today… quote: I disagree with you on the subject of The Economist. In particular, don’t find it particularly free-market oriented. Their idea of free-market emphasizes the "free" (as in freedom) more than a "wild" capitalist would like. But to say that they are not particulary free-market oriented is unreasonable. How would you characterize The Economist? I have to add that I am not a particular supporter of “wild” capitalism, in case that was the contention, nor me or my colleagues benefit from it. The business I am a part of is a customer oriented business. Now, what I dislike about The Economist is pretty much what I dislike about most of the contemporary publications – they are too ideological and increasingly less professional. quote: However, I estimate my children’s lives to be worth more than that. Not to take anything from your children, but I think the only individuals on the planet that are worth more than that happen to be mine . Needless to say, for most parents the value of their children is indeed infinite. The society at large has a different way of valuing a person, of course. At the other end of the spectrum, for the military types, the value of a human on the "other side" is measured by the cheapest way to exterminate them. But that's another topic. Now, wait a minute…. What did you say????

Dear Khodja, My lunch break is over. Will be brief. I can assure you that many sides would like to have me as an ally in any campaign they may need to unbundled – whether Armenians, Russians, Jews, Turks or anyone else. Does anyone want to have you as an ally or does everyone want to distance himself/herself as far as possible from you? You don’t need to answer – it was a rhetoric question with an answer known in advance.

I think you are hyperventilating, again. While I am not here to claim that it is impossible for the Armenian outlets of media to disseminate lies - consciously or otherwise, I think one can explain the reference to the Azeri sources of media by lack of better sources, which is understandable due to absence of direct relationship between Armenia and Turkey. Even if the alleged facts here to don't correspond to the reality, it is noteworthy to mention in the outlets of Armenian Media that Azeries are disseminating such information. For the same reason, at least, it is noteworthy to mention it in this forum. Additionally, I am looking forward to the day when you can post one constructive material other than bashing someone else. That they would warrant special celebrations, and I would send you, personally, a nice bottle of wine.

PanArmenian News - Analysis Sept 25 2002 TURKISH AUTHORITIES PUNISH THOSE CITIZENS WHO SPEAK AGAINST BLOCKADE OF ARMENIA Few days left for the Turkish authorities refusing contacts with Armenians to govern. Mass repressions towards businessmen, politicians and public figures speaking in support of opening of the Armenian-Turkish borders, have started in Turkey. Members of a delegation, who visited Yerevan recently for establishment of a dialogue, learned on their return home that they were dismissed. The special services, the police and even the tax institutions started to show interest towards those persons. It's interesting that neither in Ankara, nor in Baku does anybody try to hide that the repressions are caused by dissidence, and especially in the issues concerning the contacts with Armenians. /PanARMENIAN.Net/ The Ambassador of Azerbaijan to Turkey Mamed Aliyev confirmed recently that the Turkish citizens speaking in support of economic cooperation with Armenia were being punished. He said while speaking with journalists that `the Turkish authorities take all the necessary measures towards those persons.' According to him, the `authorities of several eastern regions of the country have already been dismissed because of the attempts to set business contacts with Armenia.' The diplomat assured that the Embassy of Azerbaijan in its turn undertakes the necessary steps aimed at neutralization of the attempts to set a dialogue between Ankara and Yerevan. The Ambassador as especially irritated with the fact that `some Azeris living on the Turkish territory bordering with Armenia are speaking in support of economic cooperation with Armenia.' President of Azerbaijan is also aware of this. During his recent visit to Kars Heydar Aliyev said that `Azeris living in Kars region often visit Armenia for their mercantile interests.' The Azerbaijani Ambassador confirmed the information that in the regions of Kars and Igdir some forces continue to carry out propaganda in support of opening the Armenian-Turkish borders and establishment of relations between the two countries. And the self government bodies are aware and indirectly even encourage them. Despite all this, the Ambassador believes that there is no need to worry, as `the official Ankara maintains its principal position in this issue and the cooperation with Armenia is out of question'. Meanwhile, another Azerbaijani diplomat, former Consul of Azerbaijan in Turkey Abas Abdula has a point of view different from the one mentioned above. He is sure that the Turks have to open the border with Armenia. This was informed by the «525th» newspaper issued in Baku. The Baku press recently attaches great importance to this issue. One of the leading newspapers has published an interview with the co-chairman of the Armenian-Turkish commission on economic cooperation, Kaan Soyak.. The businessman has noted that Ankara and Yerevan can establish normal economic relations, and Azerbaijan can join them and speed up this process. Despite the repressions towards those who dare to speak in support of a dialogue with Armenia, lots of Turkish citizens are against the transport and economic blockade carried out by Ankara. Kaan Soyak is not alone in his initiative. The Mayor of Kars Naif Alibeyoghlu, President of the Union of Stock Exchanges Rifat Khisakhjokhlu, Head of the Trade-Industrial Chamber of Igdir Tayar Oral, Member of the National Security Council Hasan Koni, Parliament deputy Gyunul Saray and many others have already stated that there is no sense to continue the blockade. The direct and indirect pressure towards those persons proves the agony of the ideology of today's authorities refusing any cooperation with Armenia. There are all the bases to think that the extraordinary elections to be held in October will reveal new leaders who are able more soberly to evaluate the reality. - "PanARMENIAN News" analytical department

quote:Originally posted by hagarag:Institute of Armenian Research spreading untruths. Desperately want to turn every worldwide Jew against the Armenian Cause. The IAR twists the facts to their advantage, mixing real history with glaring lies. Ararat movie's imminent release is making them VERY nervous. Dear Khodja, My Microsoft Outlook calendar tells me that it is time for you to take your medicine. Be a good boy, please.

Human life can be of infinite value, especially when it comes to one's children. I can understand that for a single person this may sometimes be hard to comprehend. Infinity here can be understood the way computer scientist may do - a number that anything larger than that would result in machine overflow. Now, this last one should be clear, right? To go back to the main subject, clean environment is a good thing and should be aspired, I think. Unfortunately, it has become a media for discharging the negativism of incompetent on the subject (not only this subject) angry-envy young people/countries. This is what I would call pollution of the environment. The remedy for that pollution, I think, is successfully formulated in the 10 Commandments – especially in the one about not wishing your neighbors property, wife, etc.

quote:Originally posted by Sip:Just seemed like an uncharacteristically "biased" statement, that's all. I have come to expect fully logical, serious, very well thought-out things from you. Not saying that what you said about your childeren is or is not any of those ... you just surprised me that's all Nothing wrong with feeling that way! Actually it's quite an admirable trait in a parent I must say. I just hope you don't expect others to share that same opinion I have expectations much less than that from "others", here.

quote:Originally posted by Sip: quote:Originally posted by MJ:My life definitely is not worth 20 billion dollars (it is insured for much less ). However, I estimate my children’s lives to be worth more than that. Forgive my bluntness but you are joking about the last part, right?Why? Do you have another “discovery” from children are stupid series?

Originally posted by MJ: I don’t think the above mentioned excerpt attests to the existence of global warning. It merely refers to the studies. For that you would need to read his book and hunt down the references. Clearly there have been a lot of studies on the subject. For some people, these studies are their sole source of income… But … As far as I understand, such phenomenon has been alleged but no such evidence has been presented so far. The human-induced component of global warming had indeed been buried within the "noise" until recently (i.e. a case of "inconclusive evidence). However, in the past couple of years there is a growing consensus that we are indeed causing significant global warming. If The Economist, a champion of free-market thinking (and an excellent magazine overall), concedes that it exists but says it is too expensive to prevent, I think the discussion should move away from the hardliner "well, how do we know there is global warming" level to deciding what can and cannot be reasonably done about it. But again, while I am aware of Global Warming, as far as I know, scientists are agreeing only on local warming over the last couple of decades. One of the questions that I have never been able to find an answer to, is which law of physics contemplates that the temperature of the earth has to stay constant. Clearly, historically it has not been constant. I disagree with you on the subject of The Economist. In particular, don’t find it particularly free-market oriented. The unit of measurement in that excerpt is unclear as well as how to interpret it and who has measured it. I don't know what you are referring to, but to find out more details I am afraid you just have to read his book. (Disclaimer: I haven't bought the book; no time ) I don’t understand what the unit of measure $/life means. [Just noticed that your next paragraph explains it, however.] Otherwise, I am for imposing emission controls on rubber-tier manufacturing plants – within the perimeters of common sense. His argument was that it doesn't make sense to spend 20 billion dollars to save one life (in the sense that we can save a lot more lives by channeling the money elsewhere). I don't know your perimeters of common sense though. I also don't mean to suggest that your life is not worth 20 billion dollars. Never mind. You can proceed with your own perimeters of common sense. My life definitely is not worth 20 billion dollars (it is insured for much less ). However, I estimate my children’s lives to be worth more than that.

quote:Originally posted by Boghos:Talking about transliteration in an awkward way: I think it is clear that increasing education in Russian was part of Stalin´s homo sovieticus. But is there any credence to an alleged plan to replace the Armenian alphabet with cyrillic during Stalin ? I don't know how much validity is in that allegation. I have heard this opinion from an employee of the Institute of Language of the Academy of Sciences of Armenia, who at the time was an employee of the very person who had authored the change of Eastern Armenian orthography in 20s.

1. Do you recognize that Ottoman Armenians were entitled to Sovereignty? No. My strongest reason for that is that they had ceased to be the numerical majority in most of the lands they had claimed long before they first had such claims, and that change in demographics was not the result of either a genocide or any other large-scale massacre in the near past (please note here that the Armenians were a numerical majority in these places long before the Hamidian massacres in the 1890s). Note that I am not using an argument such as "swordright" or any other right of the Ottoman Empire, for I agree that if you treat one segment of the population as inferior to another and use wanton violence against that population, you use the moral right to rule over them, and that was the case with the Ottoman Empire of Sultan Hamid. I am really putting significant effort here so that not to use language that I normally don’t use... The question was straight. Your answer is all over the places, and is merely a way of runing away from taking responsibility for your contemplation, which I find to be absurd, other than offensive. On the factual level, until 1919, there have been no “land” discussions, moreover, claims. Sovereignty is an unalienable right of nations, and it doesn’t necessarily belong to the category of “land claims.” Furthermore, prior to the Genocide, Armenians were adequate majority in few villayets. Theoretically speaking, they might have voluntarily migrated so that to constitute concentrated absolute majority in Eastern Anatolia, for example. I think your answer goes only to support my former allegation – you are no different from the Young Turks – the same way they have done it, you deny Armenians the right of Sovereignty and grant Turks the privilege of ruling them. This is what makes me feel using language which I don’t like. 2. Do you recognize that Karabagh Armenians are entitled to Sovereignty? Yes, on the following grounds: 1) they constitute 95% of the population in NKR, 2) they had had some sort of an independent/autonomous status on and off in the last few centuries, 3) their placement under Azeri rule was by the Soviets and neither the Armenians nor the Azeris (I am sure they did it to keep an ongoing dispute ongoing, so as to keep both nations at eachother's throats so that they couldn't unite in any way to throw off the Russian yoke), 4) after what transpired, it takes a person even more naïve than me to expect these guys to live in the same place without tearing eachother apart, especially as long as their national ambitions are not fulfilled. The entitlement to Sovereignty is a right, which has nothing to do with the circumstances. A prior autonomous status also has nothing to do with the mentioned above entitlement. Kurds have never had autonomy. Does it imply that they are not entitled to Sovereignty? Bulgarians have been under the Ottoman rule for centuries? Does this mean that they had forfeited their entitlement to Sovereignty? Chechens never have been Sovereign. What about them? Is it allowed, in your view, for new Sovereign nations to emerge in the future? Do Bosnians have right to Sovereignty? I can go on and on… 3. Do you recognize that Karabagh Armenians are entitled to having Karabagh joined with Armenia if they chose so? Yes, upon condition that the "joining" will not be over Azeri teritory outside NKR gained through conquest and not settled by agreements. The best scenario for both of these nations would be NKR to have a land corridor to ROA and Azerbaijan to have one to Nakhichevan and by extension to Turkey. There will be many people/factions on both sides that will oppose such an arrangement on the grounds that it would involve loss of territory, but frankly speaking if I were a non-Turk and non-Armenian this is probably the best solution I would come up with. Of course, if NKR chooses to politically unite with ROA with or without such a land bridge, it is entirely their own decision and frankly speaking pretty much none of Azerbaijan's business once they have become fully independent. Again, the question here was not about negotiating the circumstances of the annexation of Karabagh to Armenia. It was about the entitlement – the right. I think it would be suitable, if we leave the “negotiation” of the terms of the presumed annexation to the relevant officials. 4. Do you recognize that Karabagh Armenians are entitled to appealing to military means to liberate their lands? Yes, and Azerbaijan is entitled to appealing to the very same means to keep itself in one piece. The winner wins, and so far it appears that NKR has won. Good for them. The question was very straight. You still cannot give any answers other than “Yes, but…” Let’s leave the “but” to Azeries, can we? What do you think your inability to be precise is indicative of? 5. Do you recognize that Karabagh Armenians are entitled to creating security zone so far as Azerbaijan doesn’t recognize their right for sovereign existence? No. This echoes the Israeli line re the West Bank and Gaza, and, more significantly, our line with Northern Cyprus, and no-one buys it in our cases, why should it be bought in yours? Do you recognize that if you expect me to answer "yes" to the above question, you entitle me to push with the same logic in Cyprus with the Greeks and enlist you as an ally (horror of horrors)? Same problem... You cannot give a straight answer without diluting it. Do I understand that you answer implies that Armenians of Karabagh are entitled to appeal to military means, but they are not entitled to take the measures which guarantee their security and defensibility? Additionally, how do you define what is NKR territory and how do you define what is outside it? The answer to your question is no. I don’t recognize it. My answer does not depend on what do I entitle you to, nor it depends on Cyprus. 6. Do you recognize that by blockading Armenia Turkey is violating the most basic rules of human cohabitation and declaring itself as the enemy of Armenia? No. South Africa was blockaded by sanctions during apartheid, and Iraq is now as it is a threat to regional security and its own people. No-one but these nations themselves complained about it at the time. Armenia, after all, is a supporting party to a territorial conflict in NKR for which it had received UN condemnation, and as I had stated before numerous times, we still have not received a clear & unequivocal statement from ROA regarding OUR (Turkey's) territorial integrity. Conflicting statements occasionally pop up. You cannot be blamed for taking measures against a state which doesn't fully recognise your territorial integrity (and hence by extension your very existence), especially if they do not involve military means, and our measures don't. It is very hard to trace coherent logic in this answer. It is what I call (not the only answer, btw) flip-flap. It seems like you cannot give a straight answer without referring to the example of “Bangladesh.” This is about Armenia and Turkey. And how come Turkey is not blockading Iraq? First, there is no territorial conflict in Karabagh. Not being a de-jure Sovereign State, Karabagh cannot in principle present territorial claims to Azerbaijan. Karabagh has Sovereignty claims towards Azerbaijan. Armenia has not given any indications that it has territorial claims to Azerbaijan, either. As far as Turkey’s territorial integrity is concerned… There is no confusion on the subject. Armenia has not spoken on the subject. However, my answer is that Turkey is not entitled to territorial integrity – I have been very consistent on this all along. The presumed non-recognition of Turkey’s territorial integrity by ROA does not grant Turkey the right to blockade Armenia – this is against the International Law, if nothing else. Additionally, Syria has territorial claims towards Turkey. Does Turkey blockade Syria? 7. Do you recognize that by refusing to face the issues related to Armenia and Armenians Turkey is manifesting itself as a coward state? Yes. What do you think I am trying to do over here, sticking my neck out to do my bit to get the country recognise the AG? At least one straight answer. 8. Do you recognize that Armenia is entitled to the right of having land and other claims towards Turkey? I would prefer to answer this question in full after you have clarified what the "other" claims are, but as far as the land claims go, theoretically yes, as we are entitled to refute them and use whatever legal means we have at our disposal to make these claims be dropped from the governmental agenda of ROA (I would agree with you that Turkey should not hold any land claims made by anyone other than the ROA against ROA and use it as a pretext to deny the genocide or refrain from establishing diplomatic relations with ROA, but ROA must drop these claims if its wants to have normalised relations with Turkey). In fact, politicians are so emotionally charged up in this issue that they cannot see the domestic political gains to be made out of it if approached intelligently. My question was not about politicians’ emotional state of mind nor about Turkey’s entitlements. It was about Armenia’s rights and what you, Ali Suit, think about these rights. Why are you hiding behind the “politicians” back. Also, why does answer here contradict with your answer in paragraph 6? What claims are you referring to when suggesting that “ROA must drop these claims?” By “other claims” I meant claims of material and moral restitution. It is past my bed-time now. I will respond to your answers in paragraph 9 tomorrow, if I can manage my time and energy accordingly.

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: Have you heard the expression, "Look who is talking?"

Academics have "obligation" to publish in "academic journals" and build resume - especially when they are struggling for a tenure [-track] position. This is how they earn their bread. Besides, in boards like this they cannot protect their "intellectual property." There may also be other reasons, such as these boards may be brutal and they may quickly "lose face."

TB, I have two problems with your last paragraph. I don't think the above mentioned excerpt attests to the existence of global warning. As far as I understand, such phenomenon has been alleged but no such evidence has been presented so far. However, one may tie it to Global Warming. The unit of measurement in that excerpt is unclear as well as how to interpret it and who has measured it. Otherwise, I am for imposing emission controls on rubber-tier manufacturing plants - within the perimeters of common sense. [ October 03, 2002, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:However I do remember that there was extensive war-mongering and "tub thumping" (MJ :-) ) going on in the Turkish media, to the extent that I actually recorded some of their TRT radio broadcasts. Dear Cat, Your beautiful smile has been duly noted. What a charming personality...

quote:Originally posted by THOTH:I think the evidence before us is of dramtically rsing temperatures with the cause being man/industry/fossil fuel consumption.... Could you show me that evidence, Thoth?

quote:Originally posted by Arpa:Tsk, tsk MJ. Shame on you Didn't we swear on our scouts' honor to not compare and pit one version over the other? Born to be bad...Actually...I was born naked...

quote:Originally posted by Twilight Bark: quote:Originally posted by MJ:I wonder what has changed in the human behavior over the last one year… It may be the higher temperatures due to global warming. Eskimos (a.k.a. Innuit, etc.) have been observing (and starting to make noises about) habitat destruction due to increased temperatures in the Arctic lately. Assuming the same phenomenon is occuring over the Antarctic, the shrinking of the ozone hole might perhaps be explained by the "human behavior" represented by global warming. Disclaimer: This is only a speculation, and not a religious statement. ..But isn't it alleged that the implication of Global Warming is the Ozone Hole?

I wonder what has changed in the human behavior over the last one year… _________________________________________________________________ Ozone hole over Antarctica has shrunk, split in two Mon Sep 30, 3:47 PM ET By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON - The ozone hole over Antarctica is markedly smaller this year than in the last few years and has split in two, government scientists reported Monday. The so-called "hole," actually an area of thinner than normal ozone, was measured at 6 million square miles (15.6 million square kilometers) in September. That compares with around 9 million square miles (23.4 million square kilometers) on September measurements over the last six years, according to researchers at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and National Aeronautics and Space Agency. While ozone at ground level is considered a pollutant, the layer of ozone high in the stratosphere is vital to life because it blocks dangerous radiation coming from the sun. Thinning of the ozone layer could lead to a rise in skin cancer, experts warn. Aerosols and other chemicals are blamed for the thinning, and treaties banning those ingredients are expected to help the layer recover over time. This year's improvement was attributed to warmer than normal temperatures around the edge of the polar vortex, or circular wind pattern that forms annually in the stratosphere over Antarctica, according to Paul Newman, a lead ozone researcher at NASA ( news - web sites)'s Goddard Space Flight Center. . Craig Long, a meteorologist at the NOAA Climate Prediction Center, said the stratosphere over the southern hemisphere was unusually disturbed this year by the wind, causing the hole to split into two separate holes. In 2001 the Antarctic ozone hole reached a maximum size of more than 10.2 million square miles,(26.5 million kilometers) larger than the entire area of North America, including the United States, Canada and Mexico combined. In the year 2000, it briefly approached 11.5 million square miles(30 million square kilometers). The last time the ozone hole was as small as it is this year was in 1988, and that was also due to warm temperatures. Newman explained that while "chlorine and bromine chemicals cause the ozone hole, the temperature is also a key factor in ozone loss." The coldest temperatures over the South Pole occur in August and September. Thin clouds form in these cold conditions, and chemical reactions on the cloud particles help chlorine and bromine gases to rapidly destroy ozone. By early October, temperatures typically start to warm and the ozone layer starts to recover. An Australian study published two weeks ago reported that chlorine-based chemical levels in the atmosphere are falling, and the hole in the ozone layer should close within 50 years. Although the ozone layer has not yet begun to repair itself, the hole would probably start closing within five years, said Paul Fraser, of the Australian government-funded Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization, or CSIRO. Ozone in the air overhead is measured in Dobson Units. The ozone hole is the area with total column ozone below 220 Dobson Units, as measured by satellites and balloon-borne ozone measuring instruments launched from the South Pole station. In the tropics, ozone levels are typically between 250 and 300 Dobson Units year-round. In temperate regions, seasonal variations can produce large swings in ozone levels, reaching as high as 475 Dobson Units in some areas, and as low as 300. A reading of 100 Dobson Units means that if all the ozone in the air above a point were brought down to sea-level pressure and cooled to freezing it would form a layer 1 centimeter thick. At that scale a reading of 250 Dobson Units translates to a layer about an inch thick. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ng_ozone_hole_1

Turkey Says Seized Substance Not Uranium Tue Oct 1, 8:25 AM ET By Mehmet Emin Caliskan ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Turkish scientists said on Tuesday the substance at the center of a nuclear weapons scare was not uranium and that the material seized in the south of the country posed no threat. Turkish police said over the weekend they had seized 33 lbs of weapons-grade uranium in a taxi about 155 miles from the border with Iraq, facing possible U.S. military action over its alleged program of weapons of mass destruction. Officials said later the amount had in fact been about five ounces. The difference was explained by the weight of the metal container holding the material. Scientists at Turkey's Nuclear Research and Training Center on the outskirts of Istanbul said on Tuesday the substance was not uranium and was not radioactive. "It is a powder of zinc, manganese, iron and zirconium," Guler Koksal, director of the research facility told Reuters. "It is not radioactive, it is not chemical and it is not explosive." Suspicions had been aroused by the words "primarily youranuom" written on the outside of the metal tube in which the sandy powder was stored in a glass vial. "It doesn't mean anything," Koksal said, calling it "a very big mistake" for officials to have declared the substance weapons-grade uranium without proper checks. President Bush ( news - web sites) says Baghdad has tried to acquire uranium to develop a nuclear bomb. The Bush administration is working to build international support for a military operation to oust Iraqi President Saddam Hussein ( news - web sites). Iraq denies it has weapons of mass destruction. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ey_uranium_dc_2