MJ

quote:Originally posted by THOTH: And MJ - I hear you! LOL Good boy!

Indeed. In 5th to 13th centuries’ Armenia the doctrine of "Virgin" Mary has been dismissed by a very significant portion of the Armenian Christian population. The idea has been indoctrinated in Armenia with sward by the consecutive Byzantine Emperors and has finally been indoctrinated after the exile of Paulicians and the persecution of Thondraketsi, who both have been standing on the grounds of the first century Christianity.

I wholeheartedly encourage Turkey's entry into EU - Europe deserves it. Please let me know if there is a petition in place and I would sign it immediately. However, could Armenia stay outside the European Union, please? I mean please?

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:i have a new international version bible where it is mentioned that jesus had a brother called james?! how come this comes as such a shock to christians? It doesn't. Only those who have never read the New Testimony are shocked.

My mistake. Sorry.

Thanks for the tip, Ali. I just checked the Amazon reviews and found that,indeed, most of the reviewers share more or less the same reaction. However, how did you conclude that they are Armenians? Perhaps, I may also write a small review based on the above in Amazon.

I came across an interesting material : http://www.fewer.org/caucasus/pbjav800a.pdf

quote:Originally posted by MJ: One has to also note that his material is not directed at a professional audience but pursues a purpose of shaping public attention. I meant to say "Public Opinion."

P.S. I don't think he is a fraud. When Kkarabagh Armenians rose up in 1988 for the unification of Karabagh with Armenia, the issues was sent by the Kremlin to the Institute of Oriental Studies [institute Vostokovedenia] of the Academy of Sciences in Moscow for a professional feedback. The feedback that came back signed by Dr. Kim was that under no circumstances should it be allowed for this unification since it is contrary to the interests of USSR. The recommendation was to mobilized the entire public opinion against the Armenians, and turn everything against Armenians. This recommendation penetrated the press at the time. However, Kremlin took this recommendation as a basis for its further actions and adhered to it until the collapse of USSR. I don’t remember the name of Volinski, but I am sure he is not a fraud. He might very well be a member of Kim’s team following the line even 10 years later. One has to also note that his material is not directed at a professional audience but pursues a purpose of shaping public attention. Well, this kind of selling out is characteristic to some "hungry scientists."

Domino, While the underlying logic of the material is flawed and corrupt and, I think, deliberately misleading, there is a lot of truth in it on a factual level. Indeed, Armenians have been an absolute minority in Armenia throughout 19th and early 20th centuries. The question to be answered is "how come." It is also well established (even in the Armenian literature) that Andranik was a murderer and has had a lot of blood of civilians on his hands. This is one of the reasons he has been denied role in the Army of the first Republic of Armenia, and eventually has found no alternative for himself but to leave the perimeters of the Republic of Armenia in 1919. It is characteristic that he did not participate in the battle of Sardarabad with his heroes [he was having good time in Hovhanness Tumanyan’s house at the time]. Overall, this glorified "hero" never has accomplished anything for the Homeland. Just has shed blood. Indeed, Azeries have been subjected to tremendous repression by the Bolsheviks/Communists in early 1920s – more than Armenians. The question is, "What do Armenians have to do with it?" His insinuations about the "cartridges" are ridiculous at best. If this was his best argument, he would rather not practice journalism or research on the subject of history so that not to embarrass himself. Another comment that I would have is that, as always, the existence of Dashnaktsutiun and its actions have never done anything good for Armenia but have only played at the hands of our enemies – now and then. This incompetent and bloody bunch has always given the excuse to the enemies to turn the history against us decades later or even during the events. Also, like I have said it in the past, neither Armenia nor Azerbaijan had had any source of armory and ammunition other than Russia. It is also known in certain circles that the hostility between Armenians and Azeries has been generated by the efforts of the Russian Government effective the early 20th century. Until then, Armenians and Azeries have lived in peace. This fact is well documented in the book "Krovavaia Resnia na Kovkase" published in 1905 in St, Pitersburg (unfortunately have forgotten the author’s name – he is of Russian origin), for example. It translates "The Bloody Massacres in Caucuses." It documents multiple cases of the actions of the Russian special forces to infest hostility amongst Armenians and Azeries, in particular the organization of the massacre of the Armenians in Armenian villages by the Russian forces dressed into national Azeri outfit. This has been a systematic effort by the General-Governor of Caucasus Golitsin. The reason has been the Armenian aspiration for Independence of Armenia as documented by the author. . The Armenian response eventually has been the execution style killing of him by Dro. The contemplation on the "deportation" of Azeries from Armenia in late 1990s provides a completely falsified picture. And I don’t think it is due to lack of knowledge by the author. It is also interesting that, indeed, there is not a single reference from any qualified source in this article, but it only provides a dictionary for the uniformed readers. Overall, I think the material is not warrant a response on a line-by-line basis.

I broadly agree with your characterization of the book. While I accept the fact of it being written by a professional, meanwhile, I have a feeling that it has been written somewhat hastily. It is frequently hard to trace the underlying logic or to come up with specific conclusions. It almost makes an impression of the author claiming something like, "if we make this and this assumption, we would arrive to this and this conclusion, if we make the other assumption, we would arrive to the other conclusion. We can arrive to any conclusion, thus the subject should not be studied." This is especially true as far as the topic of the "origin of Armenians" is concerned. It looks like "I have been asked to write about it and here it is." On the other hand, maybe it is not designated for bed-time reading, and has to be read with a sharp pencil in one's hands. I may try it when I have time. In any case, I think this is a book to at least glance through and to know about. [ November 11, 2002, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by Accelerated: quote:Like I have said once - this forum is like a pool. You shake it a little bit and all the balls fall into the right holes. Yeah....and unfortunatelly (for you), we dont have a hole big enough to fit your ball.I am having hard time to figure out whether you are to be called Jugeneruts or Degeneruts. Either one would characterize you properly. In either case, you can rent an "ass.hole" from me to the moderators of this forum to reciprocate the favor. Got to go to work.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:mj, arrogance is not a virtue, especially if coupled with erroneous judgement. I agree. However, disingenuousness, intellectual and other dishonesty (for yet another occasion), falsifications, the pretending, the showing off, the lack of courage, the double talk (I can go on and on), make anyone to lose face. And then, once you lose face, you are just faceless – in Armenian they say “anyeres.”

quote:Originally posted by Accelerated: quote:Thoth, Your insecurity is yielding pathetic results. quote:I would add intellectual and behavioral dishonesty. Careful now Martin, you know Titanium too has a point of breaking, and I feel your perillously close to it........LMAO!Like I have said once - this forum is like a pool. You shake it a little bit and all the balls fall into the right holes.

quote:Originally posted by Twilight Bark: quote:I was not being mean. I was, and am still, irritated by a refusal to be receptive. I have near-infinite patience with people as long as I perceive them to be with good will. If I sense that my counterpart is motivated by "scoring points" of any sort rather than having an honest exchange of ideas, my patience evaporates, as it should.[/qb]I would add intellectual and behavioral dishonesty.

Thoth, Your insecurity is yielding pathetic results.

It seems like MJ has no retreat from this forum....

Ali, I paid as much as your material earned.

quote:Originally posted by aycemnik:MJ I find the label "accidental nationalis" a very funny one Dear Aycemnik, Perhaps you are right. But I think there are a lot more fannier things in this forum. In particular, Ali's posting above. What I don't understand is whether he is trying to entertain himself or us...?

Thoth, We, Armenians, are a very small player to decide who would be in and who would be out in Caucasus. However, currently, there is some status quo which makes things not as bad as they could be. I think your hopes are akin to those of mine, which I have expressed out-loudly multiple times in Hye Forum, including in this thread – I hope some they proper regional security structures would be established which would guaranty fair and just peace in the region. For now, I don’t see it happening, therefore, allow me to choose the least of the evils, please. Back to work.

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: quote:Originally posted by MJ:[Hmm… Not a single Armenian name… - MJ] Hmmmm.... it should be worth reading then! Steve Cat, Why don’t you liberate yourself from your quintessential racist misery before the misery dose it for you?

And a question: when the Russians leave Caucasus, who do you think enters?

Thoth, In my previous materials, even though I had addressed you, I really meant everyone who had spoken on the subject of the closed topic. There are things that I can argue in your last post, but I have to run to work. Just would like to make one comment for now: I am not trying to put any one down. It would serve no purpose. I am trying to raise the plank. This one, I think, serves a good purpose.

Dear Domino, All I can tell you is that I genuinely wish you success in your further growth and I am ready to contribute within reasonable limits if I can do so. There is nothing personal in what I say or do in this site. I have no personal interests here. In fact, it is drainage for me. After the first weak of my presence in this forum, I have attempted to leave and not to return. I have no interest in arguing here, nor have interest in “competing” with some accidental “nationalist.” It would serve no purpose. I have not started this forum. It has existed before I have known about it. By irony of developments, this forum is the one that has survived over the last several years amongst all existing ones. And you know perfectly well about them. Well, if it has to exist, it has to meet certain standard. Otherwise it is better to shut it down. And I am not talking about my standards. I am talking the standards suitable for the Republic of Armenia, the way I have known them. Otherwise, I couldn’t be more sick and tired of this place.

Domino, One thing I support unequivocally is the right for self-determination.