MJ

Dear elly, Sorry I was late. I was about to refer you to the 4th century A.D. manuscripts of Pavstos Buzand, who attests to the fact that Armenians are the authors of the concept and the first implementation of Democratic Society. So, yes, Armenia is a Democratic country for about 1700 years and a role model for the rest of the world. If you don’t believe me, read it yourself.

Turkey and Armenia: If Turkey wants to belong to the West, it must not denythe Genocide of 1915 `Die Welt' newspaper 12 December 2002 By Hannes Stein Translated from German The whole world (at least in Germany) is arguing whether Turkey will, or should, or must, become a member of the exclusive club of the European nations. Does the Republic of Turkey belong culturally to Europe or not? Doesn't Asia begin at the Bosporus? What does `culturally' really mean? And just what is `Europe' anyway?I propose replacing the question `Does Turkey belong to Europe?' withanother one: `Does Turkey belong to the West?' Here, with `the West' nogeographical location is meant, and also no specific culture or concept ofthe state. The West is characterized more by the willingness to questionitself, repeatedly and fundamentally. Only those countries which give full honor to those who have the courage to `dirty the nest' deserve to be called `Western'. Thus France is a Western country, because there one can speak freely and openly about the tortures during the Algerian war for independence. The USA is Western, because every decent schoolchild there knows about the massacres during the wars against the Indians, and about the crime of black slavery. Bertolt Brecht once wrote `Let others speak of their shames; I will speak ofmy own.' (Not that he necessarily did so!) Even so, this statement waves invisibly as the motto on the flag of every Western state. Certainly liberal democracy is based in the first order on parliamentary elections, the separation of powers, and freedom of assembly. But all these wonderful things are a mathematical function of the capability to shine light on the dark, horrible, embarrassing, and shameful things in one's own history.This is particularly important for Turkey, which is hiding a mountain of corpses in the cellar of its history. In 1915, the Ottomans carried out the first modern genocide, in which perished a million and a half Armenian men,women, and children. This genocide is well documented. There are eyewitness accounts from the German writer Armin T. Wegener, from the American Ambassador Henry J. Morgenthau Senior, and from the Austrian military envoy Pomiankowski. There are numerous reports and telegrams that attest to the crime from the vantage point of those who carried it out. Some time after the First World War, Turkey itself sought to punish those in the regime who had coldly planned and implemented the slaughter. But soon,however, this gave way to denial. This is fundamentally absurd, since the Turkish Republic has no responsibility, from the legal standpoint, for what the preceding regime had done. Even so, the official discourse in Turkey insists to this date that the genocide of the Armenians never happened. The official version goes as follows: The Armenians, during the First World War, with Russian assistance staged a revolt which was suppressed. Massacre? Yes, there was a massacre- The Armenians carried one out on the Turks. And in this way, the victims are killed once again afterwards - through lies. Does Turkey belong to the West? Does Turkey want to belong to the West? If so, then Turkey must stop behaving like a child in the belief that it canmake itself invisible by covering its eyes. Turkey must finally look the facts in the bloody face. Let there be no misunderstandings: No one is seriously demanding that Turkey do any favors for the Armenians. There can be no demands for territory or substantial material compensation. But the descendants of those who survived the killing have the right to see that the deported, those driven out into the desert of Dayr al-Zor, the tortured, the beaten, the starved, and the drowned children, can finally rest in peace. This is above all else in the national interests of Turkey itself. Regardless of whether one speaks in orthodox Freudian terms of a compulsion to relive things, or if one instead speaks in an archaic way of the curse of evil deeds: As long as Turkey denies the genocide, it will never find inner peace. Certainly, that country has fought its way to an impressive degree of freedom: religion and state are separate, there is an elected parliament, and even a partially-free press. But since the genocide of the Armenians remains a taboo, the temptation is always there to resolve minority problems with the methods of those days. The Kurds, for instance,can tell a sad tale on this score. If liberal democracy is the fruit of striving to look one's own shames in the eye, then it will still be a while before it is harvest time in Turkey. This is an article in a German newspaper. Germany has the worst genocide of history on its conscience. Yet even in the First World War, officers of theGerman Empire assisted their Turkish allies in driving Armenians into oblivion. Should this not be a reason for German foreign policy today to speak of its own shame? And particularly when it comes to talking with itsTurkish counterparts? The French National Assembly has officially condemned the genocide of 1915. Is it not time that the German Bundestag follow this example?

National Review Online NOV. 21, 2002: DATELINE TORONTO David Frum's Diary Democracy for Turkey: On Tuesday's Washington Post oped page, Newsweek International editor Fareed Zakaria vigorously scourges the European Union for dishonoring its pledge to begin work on Turkish entry into the EU. Zakaria notes that Turkey has committed itself to a broad program of internal reform and respect for the rights of its Kurdish minority. The Kurdish language has been legalized and state media now broadcast in the Kurdish language. This is important progress and it deserves to be acclaimed - and rewarded. Turkey has been a good friend to the United States first in the Cold War and now in the War on Terror. But the recent election gains for Islamist parties in Turkey warn us against too simple a view of Turkey's internal politics. Turkey is a friend. Turkey is also a potential problem. Turkey is a testing ground for the thesis that democracy can immunize a Muslim-majority state against Islamic extremism. It can be a testing ground for something else too, which Zakaria will discuss in a forthcoming book - the proposition that there is more to democracy than elections alone. Turkey must build a democratic culture to animate its democratic institutions. That democratic culture will require a full reckoning with Turkish history, the bad pages as well as the good, the atrocities against the Armenians as well as the achievements of Kemal Ataturk. Turkey has emancipated itself from so many of the malign influences of Islamic tradition, but there is one more veil that must be lifted - the veil that inhibits so many Muslim nations from perceiving themselves as anything other than victims, no matter what acts they themselves have committed. We'll know that Turkish democracy has become permanent and irreversible when Turkey can tell itself the truth about the events of 1916. And the United States can help Turkish democracy to become permanent and irreversibly by pressuring Europe to keep its promises to our Turkish ally.

Isn´t that what has happened except for the mercy and bless portions ?[/QB] To think of it, yes, Boghos. "Lord, Armenians have something on them..." ...and it is a heavy burden.

I got it: "Lord, Bless Armenians and have Mercy on them..."

Hey Domino... Watch out! It is not supposed to be an S&M gathering. It is a lesson on Armenian subjects. Azat, smack his head, please.

Actually, you are wrong Sip. The prototype of the Internet was invented by Armenians. It was discovered by academician Piatrovsky about 60 years ago during the explorations of the ruins of Erebuni. There, along the sewage pipline that was extending from Argishti's palace to the Tempel of Khald and down the hill, he found a prototype of fiber optics cable. Moreover, the early Assyrian sources attest to the fact that Argishti had been active on an Assyrian Bulletin Board and had been engaged with the King of Assyrians in a dispute on the true origins of Armenians. Some impartial Hebrew manuscripts of around 500BC claim that this was the reason of the collapse of Urartu - Argishti got too much exposed to western ways of thinking and lifestyle. Then, while Armenians and Assyrians were arguing with each other, Jews implemented Internet in Jerusalem without any reference to Armenians. This is the true story. I have heard it in a private seminar organized by the estimed professor Episkoposyan of ROA. [ December 13, 2002, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: MJ ]

I see, now... I think we have to bring together something called Hye Forum’s Chorus and should sing "God Bless Armenia." Then we should recite in unison - Der Voghormea, Der Voghormea, Der Voghormea…

Domino, Did you have to be the 13th?

I wonder who has confirmed that the "Biblical facts" are facts. Is there any corroborative evidence? I am also curious to know who has written the Bible, or who has brought its different chapters written by different people together? Why these chapters and not some others?

Dear Boghos, We have time till Sunday to repent.

So that each new comer saves energy and time, we can have a list of declarations with an ability to register a check mark. Based on the answers of the new arrivals, we would know if he/she is a Real Armenian. A suggested list of such declarations is provided below. Please feel free to add/edit: 1. Armenians are the first Christian Nation in history; 2. Turks are bad; 3. Jews are even worse; 4. Armenians should not marry "odars;" 5. Armenian women should not date blacks; 6. Armenian Church is the savior and the manifestation of Armenian identity; 7. We will have our lands back one day - when we get strong and we kick Turks’ butts; 8. Turks have stolen our culture; 9. We have to unite; 10. Princess Diana was a 1/67 Armenian; [Please continue]

No, Azat. He has not been a professor of mine, but I have known him well in my past life - before my reincarnation. When I was a student of Yerevan University, he was an assistant professor at the applied math department. Then he became the first prime-minister of independent Armenia. My understanding is that in Armenia, to win elections, one has to garner more than 50% vote. My understanding is that this is the story behind the 16 candidates - to make everything possible to force a second round of elections, so that then to unify the opposition. But I think it is not going to work.

Azat, I don't have the list. I have been told there are about 16 candidates. Some known names mentioned were Vasgen Manukyan, Artashes Geghamyan, Stepan Dermerchyan. Obviously, Kocharyan is on the top of the list. From what I see, it looks like we are going to rise to wish long life to Kocharyan. , unless we can persuade Harut to run and present HyeForum's platform. BA!? [ December 12, 2002, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: MJ ]

I think we should ask Harut to consider. He is the most promising candidate, here.

It seems like there haven't been any discussions on the subject of upcoming presidential elections in Armenia in the forum. Any ideas of who would win, why and what to expect from that victory?

quote:Originally posted by Domino:Would that first lesson(above) be on the one hour allocated ? No. It would be the title of that one hour lesson. BTW, I meant to say "You have already started..." Too tired tonight.

quote:Originally posted by Arpa:

quote:Originally posted by Domino:MJ, what about the non-admirable Armenians like me who see themselves as pagans, atheists or agnostics, or Hindus, do you still prefer them to any foaming in the mouth Christian who knows nothing about Christianity? I could allocate an hour a week to you to make an admirable one out of you. But you have to make few promises.

quote:Originally posted by Arpa: quote:Originally posted by MJ:Why are Armenians xenophobic? Xenophobia is a double edged sword. It cuts in both directions. It excludes us from participating in the blessings the world has to offer and we exclude others in enjoying the blessings we have to offer. No, genocide is not a good subject to preach others about. They have their own pains and aches. We may show them some of the joys of being Armenian. There may few but there are. I showed my friend my tape from Yerevan, it contained among others segments from the Opera Arshak II. She was flabbergasted. First she thought it was by Verdi. She is of Italian heritage and knows opera. She was relieved to know that Tigran Chukhajian was a contemporary of Verdi and a friend of his. "That explains it" she said. BTW, She had known other Armenians who talked about nothing but the genocide. She was surprised to know that not all Armenians are paralytic idiots who know nothing but the genocide.Dear Arpa, I am sure you understand that my question was of rhetoric character and I share most of the views expressed by you in and out of this thread, including the one about the Christianity having nothing to do with our identity. I have the previlage of knowing a lot of admirable Armenians who see themselves as pagans, atheists or agnostics, or Hindus, and I would prefer most everyone of them to any foaming in the mouth Christian who knows nothing about Christianity, in fact.

quote:Originally posted by sen_vahan: MJ, You may have some more in a place where you are now. About alternatives: maybe we need one but not in this forum but in a broader perspective. One way is to recon-st territories - unreal in my opinion, but historically proved to be the best way. Dear SV, I truly don't understand what you are saying. What territories are you talking about? And if something is unreal, how can it be an alternative? BTW, for three years I have lived where you live now. Even then I didn't feel that the only alternatives available to us are what you are suggesting. And where I live now, I think there are huge numbers of alternatives. I am even ready to share some of them with you. Interested?

quote:Originally posted by sen_vahan: Right you are, Boghos, and in Armenia we can assimilate but not be ass-ed. Or the other way is to accept judaism which i think Arpa would not be happy to do neither would I. Sen_Vahan, Are these the only alternatives available to us?

Why are Armenians xenophobic?

Isn’t something that has a sole purpose of preservation called parasite?

quote:Originally posted by Azat: It is interesting that this deal has not aroused as much public indignation as, for example, the sale of the [Yerevan] Brandy Factory or the Hotel Armenia, even though the sale of these enterprises could be considered child's play compared to the Razdan Power Plant [RPP]. Yes! The Armenian idiotism doesn't allow this nation to see things beyond symbolism. Did I use the that "i" word again.... ?