MJ

I think the UCLA professionals don't have much to do with the overall evolution of Diaspora. They will exist probably way after the extinction of Diaspora - if there will be sources of financing for their endeavors. If the history of Armenian Diaspora is indicative for its future at all, I think this, itself, implies that the Diaspora is there to expire.

quote:Originally posted by nairi: quote:Originally posted by MJ:(following your example and invitation, I will call them versions) The official term for "version" is "variety" btw.Thank you for this incredible insight.

quote:Originally posted by Sip:Alright, after re-reading that sentence several times and running it through my logic analyzer, I think you are saying that the Diaspora is doomed to extinction. I have no doubt that a large part may be doomed. But I don't think the whole diaspora (as a group) is doomed to that fate, especially where Armenians are concerned. Just look at the barska- and lebanona- hyes. They have been around for certainly a LOT of generations. And the Diaspora we have here in LA ... I don't seem the extincting (<--- how's that for a word) anytime soon! I wonder what was the difficult part to comprehand in that sentence? There has existed nothing like "lebanona- hyes" prior to the Genocide and that segment of Diaspora has only a couple of generations of history, overall, doesn't it? As far as "barska-hyes" are concerned, while it is hard not to see that they are a unique phenomenon in the history of Armenian Diaspora (the only surviving segment of Armenian Diaspora ever), perhaps it is so until they moved out of Iran. Say "You are Welcome" to Nairi, please.

Arpa, I agree with you, largely. I don’t believe neither of the sides, when they claim they don’t understand Eastern Armenian or Western Armenian. That tells me only that they don’t understand Armenian sufficiently or, yes, they have obnoxious attitude. Anyone who has average understanding of either of the versions (following your example and invitation, I will call them versions), can, with a little effort, understand both. I can read with equal ease Odian or Charents, and can speak equally convincingly both versions, for example. Moreover, I admire both of the versions – each within its own perimeters. While I understand your comments about the “existence” of Turkish-Armenian, Arab-Armenian or Eastern-Armenian languages, I guess that is what I am protesting against. For example, "....Komunistakan Partiayi andam 1921-its" may be replaced by “.. Hamainavar gusagtsutian andam 1921-its,” and "Wallahi k@sem kez, Arabakan Hayeren goyutiun chuni. Ches havadar? Yallah, ertank" can be replaced by “Iravmamb, kekzi khavastiatsnem vor Arabagan Haieren lezu me goyutiun chuni. Ardiok ches havadar? Shad lav, ertank, hima,” etc. I also agree that sometimes we end up with ridiculous translations and phony words. One of the worst such examples I have considered always to be the word “inknatir” in Eastern Armenian, while there was a perfect substitute for it – “odanav.” On the subject of the two words you mentioned above, “qnarergakan” and "nyardaayin," I think they are both widely used in the written language and are recognized to be the genuine versions of "lirikakan" and "nervayin." Obviously, the last two are “bastardizations” of the previous two, and I think they are implants into the oral tradition from the professional literature. However, there cannot be two opinions, I think, as to which one should be used under the circumstances of adequate respect towards the Armenian language. I also have a comment about the orthography of Eastern Armenian. It is well known that it is resulted from the excesses of the 1920s. If one can call his child “Piatiletka,” it shouldn’t be surprising to wind up with the current orthography. There is an opinion that it was an intermediate step towards abandoning the Armenian alphabet and transiting to the Cyrillic one, while calling the Masdotsian Alphabet “Anti-Soviet.” From what I understand, the main advocate of this transition is still occupying a prominent position in the Armenian academic circles. There is no question that it has generated mess. I remember the debate on returning to the Mashdotsian alphabet being a very intensive one in late 1980s. At certain periods, I have also been a supporter of that notion. However, I have come to believe that it is not an easy step to be taken under the current circumstances. New textbooks have to be printed in Armenia, teachers have to be trained, and entire generation of people educated otherwise has to be thrown into yet another mess, etc. Eventually, a lot of money has to be spent to provide for the transitional period. Hopefully, some day… But I recognize that it would’ve brought the two versions of Armenian closer to each other. But, on the other hand, I don’t believe in the future of Western-Armenian. Not because I think it has less legitimacy, but rather there is less practical merit in spending the very limited resources on something which is doomed to expire due to the mere fact of the Diaspora being doomed to extinction in not more than a couple of generations, in my view. There is a rational “business” decision to be made, here, I think. OK, OK... The problem is indeed not an easy one...

This note is perhaps an invitation for Arpa to give his input on the subject. I am far not a linguist but , yet, have a strongly held opinion on it (surprise-surprise). There is no such language as “Russian-Armenian.” Neither there is “Turkish-Armenian” language. There have never existed such languages. Armenian language has two major branches – Eastern Armenian and Western-Armenian. Each of them consists of a large number of subdialects. If I am not mistaken, only on the territory of the current Republic of Armenia there are more than 60 active subdialects. The picture is not much different for the Western Armenian branch. Anyway, eastern Armenian has nothing to do with Russian language – it has never had any relation. Literary Eastern Armenian language (one can call it Yerevanian dialect in our days) is a gorgeous language with perfect grammar and structure, revealing the depth of the richness of Armenian language, overall. However, it can frequently be spoken badly – with a repulsive slang, with borrowed deformed Russian, Turkish, Persian and Arabic words. If someone is saying that he/she doesn’t understand this or that slang – it is not-surprising. But if one is saying he/she doesn’t understand “Russian-Armenian,” I’d say “go get your attitude fixed!”

Before starting to develop conspiracy theories, It would be good to read the update below: Turkish Police Say Seized Uranium Weighs 5 Ounces Sun Sep 29,12:33 PM ET DIYARBAKIR (Reuters) - A Turkish police official said on Sunday the amount of uranium recently seized by officers was around 5 ounces and did not weigh 33 lbs as initially reported. The state-run Anatolian news agency on Saturday reported that paramilitary police in the southern province of Sanliurfa detained two men after discovering 15 kg of uranium in a lead container hidden beneath a taxi car seat. But that amount had included the weight of the container and the radioactive material was actually around 140 grams, an official from the gendarmes force in Sanliurfa said on condition of anonymity. The International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna was also skeptical because the amount previously reported would have been enough to make a nuclear bomb, spokeswoman Melissa Fleming told Reuters on Sunday. The Turkish official said the weapons-grade uranium was seized on Friday after police stopped the vehicle on a road in Sanliurfa, which borders Syria and is about 155 miles from the Iraqi border. The incident comes at a time of heightened tension between the United States and Iraq, accused by Washington of developing weapons of mass destruction. President Bush ( news - web sites) claims Baghdad has tried to acquire uranium to develop a nuclear bomb as his administration works to build international support for a military operation to oust Iraqi President Saddam Hussein ( news - web sites). The IAEA also questioned the contents because the word uranium was spelled in a strange way on the container, which itself was made in West Germany, Fleming said. "We have no primary information and are trying to verify the contents of the object but it's very suspicious," she said. The Anatolian agency on Sunday quoted Sanliurfa's provincial governor Muzaffer Dilek as saying experts had yet to determine the amount of uranium but that intelligence agents believed it only weighed about 100 grams. Dilek also said police charged the two men in connection with the case but released them pending trial. "These people said they believe that what was given to them was medical material," he said, adding police were now looking for two other suspects. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ey_uranium_dc_1

Thanks for the explanations, Sip. But I am still in the darkeness. The entire material above was by Langer. I would like to know what Kaan is trying to say here... Is this supposed to be some kind of confession, another "explanation and justification," or am I to understand that this is supposed to manifest "Kaan dropping a bomb," and instead of talking, by now we all are supposed to be "dead?"

I just discovered this material. Tried to read it, but after getting less than half way through, I couldn't continue - I found it boring and found my eyes simply running through the page without reading. Maybe Kaan may help me/us to understand what is the conversation here about by making a couple of comments of his own and conveying the message of this material in few sentences and making clear what was the message that he was trying to deliver if any?

Turkish Police Seize Weapons-Grade Uranium Sat Sep 28,10:27 AM ET ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkish paramilitary police have seized more than 33 pounds of weapons-grade uranium and detained two men accused of smuggling the material, the state-run Anatolian news agency said on Saturday. http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20020928/t/1033226818.2147950638.jpg [Reuters Photo] Officers in the southern province of Sanliurfa, which borders Syria and is about 155 miles from the Iraqi border, were acting on a tip-off when they stopped a taxi cab and discovered the uranium in a lead container hidden beneath the vehicle's seat, the agency said. The incident happens at a time of mounting speculation the United States could launch a military attack on neighboring Iraq for its alleged program of weapons of mass destruction. U.S. President George Bush has accused Baghdad of clandestine efforts to develop a nuclear bomb as his administration works to build international support for an operation to oust Iraqi President Saddam Hussein ( news - web sites). Officials at Ankara's Atomic Energy Institute would not confirm they had been notified about the material, which Anatolia had reported. "Our investigation on whether the uranium was destined for a neighboring country is continuing," a Sanliurfa police official was quoted as saying by Anatolian. Police officials in Sanliurfa and Ankara declined to comment on the case. Authorities believe the uranium came from an east European country and has a value of about $5 million, Anatolian said. It was not immediately clear when the operation was carried out. Anatolian only gave the first names of the suspects, which appeared to be Turkish. Smugglers use Turkey's porous eastern border to import drugs, and hundreds of thousands of migrants each year illegally cross the rugged frontier on their way to more affluent European Union ( news - web sites) nations. Police in Istanbul seized more than 2.2 pounds of weapons-grade uranium last November that had been smuggled into Turkey from an east European nation. The smugglers were detained after attempting to sell the material to undercover police officers. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ey_uranium_dc_3

quote:Originally posted by hagarag:Weems claims that 100,000 Armenians participated in Hitler's genocide of the European Jews. I do not understand how Armenians, who are mainly dark, hirsuite and anything but Aryan could have been accepted by Hitler in any way to do his bidding. How did Weems come to these ridiculous conclusions, by reading the ravings of our Hye Forum resident attorney from Houston, Texas? I think it may very well be that some lunatic from Hawaii has no ability to understand what he reads or has no integrity to convey honestly things that he "reads."

Domino, I basically agree with everything you say above. I have made my last posting only for one reason - to demonstrate that Ali is going to flip-flap one more time, and that indeed it is pointless to continue these discussions. There are no intellectual mysteries surrounding the Armenian Genocide by Turks. It is elementary to understand and comprehend its crystal clear logic and implementation. There is nothing left to discuss about it. I have to also add that as much as I have understood Ali's tactics here, and contrary to some others' opinion, I don't think Ali was sent here with a "mission," but he had volunteered here with a purpose of building enough capital so that to claim an "important role" in certain Turkish academic or other “important” circles. Imagine “Ali Came, Ali Saw and Ali Won." He "opened" Armenians' eyes, "explained" some elementary "rules of life," advised “khelknerd glughnerd havaketsek,” and made a "deal." And then … "bright future waits Ali...”

At the risk of observing rising temperatures yet another time, I would like to state that I stand by everything I have said, even if it would mean that I have an “attitude” problem… (While I am not sure if I may or may not have an “attitude,” I am sure I don’t have a problem .) And also, to help to put things in perspective and to stop both the ventilation and blurring the lines (let’s draw some hard lines, here), I would like to reiterate my questions to Ali Suit: 1. Do you recognize that Ottoman Armenians were entitled to Sovereignty? 2. Do you recognize that Karabagh Armenians are entitled to Sovereignty? 3. Do you recognize that Karabagh Armenians are entitled to having Karabagh joined with Armenia if they chose so? 4. Do you recognize that Karabagh Armenians are entitled to appealing to military means to liberate their lands? 5. Do you recognize that Karabagh Armenians are entitled to creating security zone so far as Azerbaijan doesn’t recognize their right for sovereign existence? 6. Do you recognize that by blockading Armenia Turkey is violating the most basic rules of human cohabitation and declaring itself as the enemy of Armenia? 7. Do you recognize that by refusing to face the issues related to Armenia and Armenians Turkey is manifesting itself as a coward state? 8. Do you recognize that Armenia is entitled to the right of having land and other claims towards Turkey? 9. Do you recognize that if you flip flap on these serious issues, run away from the serious issues while trying to provide resolution to the existing problems, if you don’t give straight answers to straight questions, then it is legitimate for us to consider you a dishonest person or, perhaps, a coward? When we get straight answers to these straight questions, there would not be any need to go back and forth and post lengthy and blurry articulations of our positions. Clearly, all three alternatives alluded by me in a recent posting would be available for Ali.

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:Poor MJ. Look! It's YOU that you are describing. Very creative...

Cat, I have a question to you (after an introduction), and I may not sound original since that question has been addressed to you in the past by Boghos, I remember. I have observed you in this forum for quite some time. You have impressive knowledge of certain (at least certain) aspects of history, and I presume of architecture and archeological sciences. Your materials on such subjects have been quite informative. However, I have to admit that with all that, I am really puzzled at your behavior. I have an impression that this forum is sort of a place for you to dump your daily frustrations, to discharge your anger (and you come across as a very angry man). As a rule, you jump in to make some out of line or hateful comment or dump some ideological crap. Don’t you think that it does no service to this forum neither it serves you in any meaningful or positive way? OK, I guess you can discharge for one day, but it doesn’t change your life, right? Next day you are the same angry person... Don’t you think that you could find some better ways to resolve your problems?

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:mj, 1. good to see you own up to them. 2. 7) was referring to you and not to me. and if you read carefully you will see that it's you who calls himself an idiot and not me (i don't claim to call you an idiot by the way). you first make a case for land claims, and then call any person who does so an idiot. it's your own quotes. the aim of your side is clear as far as i can see. YOU WANT LAND, and the genocide is a side issue FOR YOU. the turkish hardliners that i had met kept reiterating this line and i kept refusing it. when i had joined this forum i was hoping to see it proven wrong. instead i see myself proven wrong. what a waste of time it has been. Yeah, yeah...

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:

You know, Cat, some other time I might have wanted to dissamble you and then assemble back so that it would've reminded a portrate by Picasso - just for fun and not out of importance, but I have had a long day, am tired, and need to catch some rest to be able to function tomorrow.

quote:NY Times - that Israel's mouthpiece in America - isn't it?The Cat, If I didn't know what a rational, balanced and thinking person you were ( Lord have Mercy on me...), I would have said that your outburst above is equivalent of the last Resort of an Arrogant Scoundrel trying to kill the messenger when he has no arguments against the message, but given that I know you better ... than that, just will correct you by reminding all that NY Times is the mouthpiece of American leftism. quote:MJ - am I correct in assuming that you are one of the "hairy-chested tub-thumpers"?Now, this one is more interesting. I am not versed in British (?) slang, and don't know what it means... Am I correct in assuming that over the sudden (?) you have gotten interested in my chest? If so, your courtship tactics leave a great deal to be desired…

I just noticed that in one of almost two identical messages by Ali Suit, I am being called a "self-contradictary idiot." I have only one think to add in this context: I have been in this forum for long enough time. I have seen many personalities disintegrate - most of the time due to their excessive arrognace and inability to provide adequate arguemtns, however willing to "dominate." Ali is yet another disintegrating person. I feel sorry for him - initially he had much impressed me. This is resulted from "delegating man's job to boys."

Ali, I have time only to make three short comments: 1. Thank you for reiterating my points - I stand by them, and pretty much by everything else I have ever said in this forum, other than once insulting Rich/Tigranness - it was resulted from a misunderstanding on my part of what he was saying in that particular instance. I am sorry for that particular instance; 2. I have called some people idiots in and out of this forum, and I have not seen any reasons to change my opinions nor to apologize; 3. I have not called you an idiot, and I will live it to you to characterize yourself. EDIT: Rrrrr... Not "live" but "leave." [ September 25, 2002, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: MJ ]

Ali, Not only don’t I remember asking lands from you, but I don’t believe you. I don’t ask for lands - if I can, I take them. Then, I will inform you that I have taken the lands I consider to be mine. So either you have to show me where I have asked lands or anything else from you, or you have to take some time off to clear your head. However, I am pleasantly surprised that you may think that someone may have “respectable reasons” to ask lands. It looks to me that you have a wide variance of views on the same subject. And I know why… You have pushed yourself into such a corner where you don’t have many alternatives – you have to either constantly contradict yourself and flip flap, or you have to face the issues and elevate yourself to the next level, or you have to just keep silent on the subject. In the first case you face losing further credibility, in the second case you may indeed elevate yourself, and in the third case you would be met with understanding. When you can find my postings where I have asked lands from you, it would also be easy to find the other posting of mine where I express “dramatically opposite points of views to the current one.” Then the attempt of resolving my “contradictions” would be more plausible. If you indeed don’t play games with the memory of the 1 million slaughtered people, don’t precondition the expression of your remorse on their descendents’ dropping of “land claims.” You do what you are supposed to do. Then, if the descendents would claim lands, face the issue and resolve it to the best of your ability. You can use any materials you wish here. No one can forbid you to use this or that reference. However, my reaction would depend on the quality of your arguments and materials. Regarding Hitler’s quote… I am aware of some Armenians playing this card. They are psychological slaves. The less such Armenians we have, the better for us. Obviously, they are trying to play the Jewish card in a game lost in advance. That we have indeed a lot of idiots… Is this what we were discussing here, however? The rest of your comments under bullet #3 are much more ambiguous. You are hinting at something, but you are not expressing anything that warrants reply there. If you express clearly what you are trying to say there, I may reply. I don’t see you having remorse. Because if you had it, you would not have tried to use your Genocide recognition as a bargaining chip and make it contingent to declaration of absence of land claims by the Armenian side. You would not have had a feeling that by declaring that you recognize the occurrence of the obvious you are doing some kind of favor to us. Keep in mind for the future that even the most pragmatic Armenians would not do a “deal” on the subject of Genocide. There is “no deal.” What is your point claiming over and over again that there was “context” to the Genocide? Who is the denying party? Wasn’t it accepted immediately when you had expressed that opinion the first time you arrived to this forum? Isn’t it widely accepted in Armenian political and professional circles that the Genocide has been committed by Turkey to prevent the ability of Armenians to regain Sovereignty? Given that it is widely accepted, and you keep repeating it at every occasion, doesn’t it look like you are providing it as a justification for the Genocide? If not, why are you bringing it up at every instance? Let me be more direct. Do you recognize the right of Ottoman Armenians to aspire for Sovereignty and liberation of what might have been deemed as historic Armenian lands, or do you consider that Ottoman Armenians of late 19th century, and for the sake of the argument, of the early 20th, have desecrated the sacred of sacred – the feelings of untouchability of the perimeters of the Ottoman Empire? Do you consider that given that for a long period of time Syria, Palestine, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Rumania, etc, were under the Ottoman rule, they had no right to aspire, moreover to obtain Sovereignty from Turkey? You were talking about the “chronology” of the “Armenian atrocities” against Turks? Tell me, please, when have you studied that chronology? What are your findings? Would you make public in this forum the materials you have studied? What is the conclusion about the “Armenian atrocities” based on the presumed “chronology?” I am not aware of putting words into your mouth. If you claim that I am putting words into your mouth, this may mean that you have lost your ability to analyze your own materials or you are simply lost. This may very well be the case, since as I said above, you have pushed yourself into such an intellectual and psychological corner (better to say dead end) that you cannot get out of there. And all this because you have not had the courage to look into the eyes of the issues. This always happens when you start a journey with no determination to finish it. Who do you blame? However, if you feel that to speak honestly would jeopardize your personal security, everyone in this forum would be understanding of that hazard to you. I will leave it to Khodja to criticize you for “forgetting” your references, or for your spelling errors. I would not bother to waste my time on such nonsense. However, if you would make references attempting to claim academic quality, and expect a reply, you should be professional enough to substantiate your claims with credible evidence. Finally, I think that Talaat, Enver, etc, were not “Grey Wolfs” nor “fossil CUP.” They were a very rational and thinking bunch. They did what they did for one reason only – they didn’t recognize that Armenians had any rights to Sovereignty (and maybe even less). In their minds they thought, “We’ll do what we need to do. Then, if they are still around, let them come and take it.” To answer your question, I don’t know what kind of person you are, Ali. You should tell us, perhaps. I can help you with it. Please answer the following questions: 1. Do you recognize that Ottoman Armenians were entitled to Sovereignty? 2. Do you recognize that Karabagh Armenians are entitled to Sovereignty? 3. Do you recognize that Karabagh Armenians are entitled to having Karabagh joined with Armenia if they chose so? 4. Do you recognize that Karabagh Armenians are entitled to appealing to military means to liberate their lands? 5. Do you recognize that Karabagh Armenians are entitled to creating security zone so far as Azerbaijan doesn’t recognize their right for sovereign existence? 6. Do you recognize that by blockading Armenia Turkey is violating the most basic rules of human cohabitation and declaring itself as the enemy of Armenia? 7. Do you recognize that by refusing to face the issues related to Armenia and Armenians Turkey is manifesting itself as a coward state? 8. Do you recognize that Armenia is entitled to the right of having land and other claims towards Turkey? 9. Do you recognize that if you flip flap on these serious issues, run away from the serious issues while trying to provide resolution to the existing problems, if you don’t give straight answers to straight questions, then it is legitimate for us to consider you a dishonest person or, perhaps, a coward? Maybe you should not rush to answer these questions and should take some time to clear your mind… In any case, at best, I can get involved with this forum the coming weekend, and that depends on the weather and other similar factors.

I have also few words to the Armenian members of the forum. This development with Ali is very instructive. This is a demonstration of how Armenians have cheapened the tragedy of the Genocide and have turned it into a pocket change by making it a conversation around the kitchen table. The same thing is going on in this Forum. Let’s agree that this is a serious issue and it is not the place of every accidental activist to pursue Genocide recognition. Let’s also agree that there are more than needed monuments commemorating the Genocide. In fact anything more than one is way too much. Don’t try to lower other nations’ flags to mourn your victims and stop behaving like slaves begging for pity. Have a little pride and dignity. Respect the memory of your own victims. Don't use the Genocide as unifying factor. We don't need Unity. We need Disunity. The relevant Unity has taken place long time ago - Armenia has flag, state seal and Constitution. Just shut out the scoundrels who come and talk on behalf of Unity and Solidarity. They are the heavy burden of this nation. Enough is enough! P.S. I had to get this out of my system so that to stop being distracted. It affects my work.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:to everyone i am starting to doubt my powers of expression or your powers of comprehension, or both. the sky is not as clear as my position is as far as i am concerned. i am sick and tired of repeating it, but here it is in a nutshell: 1. ag has to be recognised. 2. borders have to stay the same. 3. for ag to be recognised, land claims must be dropped, because i) denialists will use it as a pretext to put off recognition, and ii) they will cause yet another armed conflict if they persist after recognition and somebody on your side decides to implement the claims. what you guys are basically saying is "recognise the ag and give us the land, and then we can make peace" what i say is "i recognise the ag (for myself as well as for you) but the land stays in our borders. you are welcome to live on it as a first class citizen if you want, and i will do everything in my power to this end. but no border change." we will not give a chunk of our country to be "nice" to you. and of course, supporting armenian rebels in azerbaijan (which is turkish as you know) who have occupied territory OUTSIDE NKR and then expecting to normalise relations with turkey or at least expecting turkey not to do anything about it is also very, very clever and far-sighted of you. it is a bit like our guys refusing to recognise ag and still expecting you not to hate us. i shall post no more on whether there was armenian separatist action or not, not because i am "chickening out" or anything, but i have had enough of repeating the same stuff all over again. for those so inclined, there is plenty of stuff around, starting with the boghos noubar letter, and not ending there. as to whether we are right in maintaining that you still have aims to get half of eastern anatolia and throw us out, you can do no better than start with your own postings in this forum under various threads. we have come full circle in this issue. when i had joined two years ago i was first greeted with suspicion, then commended for my stance on ag, then land claims started to pop up, and my refusal to accept them brought us back to square one. since this discussion took so long and so many different people posted (even though i was the only turk who did) i think i have a fairly clear idea of what a sizeable percentage of armenians think re the issue: "get the turk out of there at the first opportunity, and play the game until the opportunity arises." if any doubt, please refer to your own postings under various threads, not all of which i had replied to. i hope to be proven wrong in time, but by events and not by words. there has been enough suffering for both sides and there must be an end to it. i repeat that i shall not answer postings unless i see something radically different or new, not because i am chickening out, but because both you and i have said everything there is to say about it. it's all in the postings, you can refer to them if you like. i shall post to other threads on other things. Ali, I think you need few more years at least to understand what has been told to you so far. And I think significant effort has been put here to explain you a thing or two. Two comments lacking qualitative news (not that I am interested in continuing this nonsense any further): 1. If you thing that everyone here is such an idiot that will ask lands from you, you are residing in a world of fantasies. Also, if you think your stance on "land claims" is of any relevance, you are in another world of fantasies; 2. If you think that by recognizing the Genocide you or Turkey, for that matter, are doing some kind of favor to us, you are playing a very "junior" game. Additionally, what you are demonstrating here over and over again is that you have no remorse, which makes you no different from the perpetrators of the Genocide. I hope that when or if you enter your manhood, you would come to an understanding that the Genocide is a blood on your hands and we, at least in priciple, could not care less if you wash it away or not. What we will do is what we are supposed to do; 3. Your repetitive insinuations about the Boghos Nubar ***** are equivalent to the efforts of a junior scholar who has found something tangential and attempts to make a PHD thesis out of it. Well, in some schools you could - but it would be hard to have your "degree" honored in better schools, and for all intensive purposes, you should view this place as a “better school.” I really am sick and tired to go into this meaningless exercise. Such a waste

quote:Originally posted by Twilight Bark: quote: ... corruption always infests and procreates amongst less developed and financially poor countries. I am not going to bring examples of third world countries but let’s look at Italy. Italy is a truly divided country. The northern part is well developed and financially affluent and less corrupt but on the other hand in the south corruption and mafia is still prevalent due mostly for lock of opportunities and less development. Hi Rubo,I agree with the spirit of what you wrote. But I'll chime in with my take. There is a strong correlation between economic development and lack of corruption. However, it is a "chicken or egg" sort of problem. Is the economy stagnant because of corruption, or is it corrupt because of a lack of legitimate opportunities presented by a vibrant economy? This is a question that even the best economists have not been able to answer satisfactorily, let alone find a solution to the problem. It is a vicious cycle that can be broken either by an external factor, or a cultural shift. In my view, a quick exit from the cycle of corruption and economic stagnation will almost certainly rely on a few "extraordinary" individuals that do not conform to the "norms of behavior" of the society caught up in the loop and have sufficient political and financial clout. So, if you want to make a big difference, focus on making a ton of money, and start your strong-willed NGO (non-governmental organization). Make your huge investments conditional upon the fulfillment of the needed "structural reforms", and allow the political leadership to take credit for the positive outcomes. Anyone here with the money? TB I really have to stop getting distracted in the Forum the coming few days, at least, but TB reminded me one of my middle school teachers (which made me smile big time), who used to say, "yete qachal@ degh unena, arach ir glkhi tjare ktesni," which translates, "if a bald man had a remedy, he would have first taken care of his own head."

I think I have addressed in my previous material your last story. I do really mean that there is not much ground for taking things so much out of proportions - every one who "hunts," or "fishes," brags when back home. But I think the "you know what" is taken way out of its proportions. ARF financed formations have played very small role compared to the "grandiose picture" portrayed above, in the liberation of Karabagh. However, as I mentioned above, they, among others, have fought honorably.