MJ

I think it may help to mention here that certain categories of lesbians refer to men, in general, as "breeders," or perhaps filthy "breeders." Hope it helps.

quote:Originally posted by nairi:I recently came across this sentence in "The Greek Myths", Volume One, by Robert Graves (Penguin, 1st ed., 1955), Chapter 38, Deucalion's Flood: quote:4. Xisuthros was the hero of the Armenian Flood legend, recorded by Berosus, and his ark came to rest on Mount Ararat.Who can tell me more about this? Hope to hear from you soon, Nairi I have heard a story, lately... When the Arc rested on Mt. Ararat, and when Noah found (upon the return of the dove) that the he had reached land, he decanted with his family and with all the animals into Nakhichevan. There where few Armenian kids playing there at the time. They yelled to each other, "Hey guy, circus has come to town..."

Dear Boghos, Give Ali due justice.. For a nation which has left its landmarks all over the continent throughout history by promoting the norms of Jeffersonian Democracy, such things cannot take place without observing the letter and spirit of plebiscite – the Turkish nation has to vote on it –was it Genocide or Armenian Rebellion, where both nations perished equally. Bad-bad things happened in the past…. It may require an intensive educational campaign to be conducted by the Turkish Generals… Brrr… I am out of here...

I have had more than my share of distractions in the last couple of weeks or so, and had decided not to get destructed any further, for now, but got tempted again… Boghos, You have pointed things absolutely transparently. I was thinking about absolutely the same response to Ali. I guess, it is part of the growing up of each and every boy to face his fears so that to be liberated from them. This is what Ali also needs to do along with his entire nation… He needs to jump over the wedge which separates them from manhood. Then the truth will reveal itself… And if he needs a friendly hand to jump over – we are here... Uhhh…I need a litle break from the Hye Forum ... But ask for me, and I'll be back.

Ali, I cannot go into the subject to any extent in the coming days. Just have one comment: Nothing is possible to accomplish if the whole host of issues is not put on the table.

Instead of saying, "However, I think it is different from calling someone disingenuous," above, I meant to say, "it is different from calling someone dishonest."

Ali, Few more words. This time 10 minutes, I guess. Besides, my focus is not in place, tonight. I have not asked for lands in this forum. As I have said time-and-time-again, “asking lands” is not individuals’ or organizations’ prerogative. It is states’ prerogative. If I have made any comments regarding Turks not having any use of the lands subject to discussion, I have never meant to say that therefore I expect that Turks will give us these lands, or I have suggested that we should ask for lands. I know very well how lands are acquired. My comment has meant to articulate an opinion (strongly held, however) that Turks did not have any strategic reasons to do what they did to Armenians nor to mutilate the Republic of Armenia (in 1920-1921), jointly with the Russians (and otherwise they couldn’t do it at the time). However, I am aware that some, here, have asked for lands from you. What can I say… I am sure that I have articulated it a couple of times, but I will do it one more time. I have an impression that you are denying the right of Armenians to want or ask or demand lands. I have a strong impression that you are denying the right to the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire to have their own country. This is what frustrates me. I have also mentioned multiple times in this forum the Russio-Turkish Treaty of 1921 and its derivative four-lateral treaty. Of the same year. I am trying to say that these two treaties, which up to today remain the main treaties regulating the international relations of the region have been and remain gross violations of all norms, they are the ones which manifest mutilation of our body, and up to today, they restrict our sovereignty. And I am saying that the Republic of Armenia has a legitimate claim, here. By the way, I am absolutely convinced that if it is not the concern of Turkey for the revision of this treaty, it would recognize the Genocide without any significant hesitation. Politically relevant Armenians are the ones who are heading the Armenian government. I am not aware of them putting forward land claims. I indeed think that it is a mistake by them not to pursue the annulment of the treaties mentioned by me above. But it is their call. To summarize, I am just inviting you to recognize that Armenians have legitimate claims and rights – including land claims and rights on lands. I am not going to ask for lands over the Internet, and I don’t believe that you are going to deliver them to me by email. I hope that I have made myself somewhat clear. About the Diaspora, again. Just the availability of members of cabinet of Diasporan origin does not constitute anything resembling a Diasporans running Armenia. This opinion is totally baseless. As much as I remember, there have been four Diasporans holding high profile positions in ROA. Sebuh Tashchian was the Minister of energy of Armenia in its toughest years – early to mid 90. He is an incredibly positive personality, however he was an apolitical technocrat – a professional in the area of energy. Raffi Hovhannessian was the first Minister of Foreign affairs. I think he was a good man, and I agree with a lot of views that he had expressed. However, I think the correct procedure in governmental affairs is this – you cannot be in the cabinet and disagree with your President and make public statements contrary to his political line. You resign first, and then go against the President. He didn’t realize it. So he got fired. Libaridian was one of the main advisers of the President. His views are well known and his inclinations towards the normalization of relations with Turkey are well publicized (I happen to agree with all of his views except those associated with how to proceed with the treaties mentioned above). Finally, the current Minister of Foreign affairs, Oskanian, is born Diasporan. However, as much as I know, he is a citizen of the ROA, and shares the views and executes the will of both President he has represented. Therefore, I have no idea what you are referring to, when talking about the ROA being run by Diaspora. However, other than the position of the Presidency of Armenia, any other position in Armenian can be held by foreign nationals – Armenians or not. And this is a good thing. Even the position of Presidency can be held by someone born elsewhere, only he/she should be a citizen of Armenia, and should have resided in Armenia for the last ten years prior to elections, I think. This is a positive thing, too. I just noticed your paragraph about the land claims and so on. Here is my position, Ali, again. Whether Armenia claims lands or not (and anything and anyone else is irrelevant in this context), that issue exists. Instead of drowing the perimeters of what is allowed us and what is not allowed us, I think you’d better face the issue. It is not right to sweep it under the rug or request from us to sweep it under the rug. It cannot happen anytime in the foreseeable future. You have made several comments about the Jewish Diaspora in the US. I happen to live in the US and have a pretty good understanding of New York. First, I’d like to say that it is not my place to make comments about the Jewish Diaspora. They are doing fine without my comments and remarks. My interests are confined to the Armenian reality in these issues. I don’t understand why you are perceiving the Diaspora as some kind of evil creature. After all, it is Turkey’s creature, if that is what we have to contemplate. As far as I am concerned, any Diasporan who has the interests of the Republic of Armenia in his/her heart and claims ownership of it, is fully entitled to any position in Armenia, as long as he/she accepts the constitution and the laws of Armenia and pledges loyalty to the Republic. If I know such Diasporan Armenians, and I do some, I would encourage them in any possible way to claim the Republic as their own. To the contrary, any Diasporan or others, who runs away from the [bitter] reality of the Republic, however contemplates on the subject of his/her “Western Armenia” or “Great Armenia,” is a coward in my mind. There are these too – a lot of them. This may be not a very direct answer to the issues you have raised regarding the Diaspora, but I think it is to the point. So, I think, you should rather embrace them, too. ROA indeed wants diplomatic relations with Turkey. ROA also would like to tap into the Turkish markets (it has such potential) and use the Turkish roads. It is not a secret. But isn’t this normal that we would want it. However, everything has its cost. If there is a perception in Turkey that any blockades or “sanctions” are going to make Armenians to negate their rights, it is a mistake. It is not going to happen. Also, in the big picture of things, in the view of the chaos that took place and was supposed to take place in Armenia, the best thing that Turkey could do for it was the blockade. This is a different topic, though. About your dishonesty… I don’t remember calling you dishonest. Though have stated that some of your remarks were disingenuous. That was my opinion. However, I think it is different from calling someone disingenuous. I don’t think that anyone here has alleged you being dishonest. Even Gamavor, who is not necessarily your sympathizer, as far as I can see, has recognized you being an honest man. I am tired, too, and as I said before, my focus was not quite in place – had had a couple of glasses of nice wine tonight. I just wanted to finish my interrupted reply to you. At some other occasion, maybe I can do a better job at it. Cheers, Martin

Ali, As much as I can communicate in 15 minutes… And I cannot address all of the raised issues in such amount of time. 1. I still don’t understand your argument. People in UK, America, majority of Canada, Australia, New Zeland and some other places speak English, share the same religion, by in large, may or may not belong to the same ethnicity, however do not constitute nation. Also, I don’t understand the notion of Cherkassians, Abkhazians, Kurds and other nomads, etc, constituting one nation at the time. 2. To the best of my understanding, Anatolia is a geographic concept. I am aware of the many nations marching into others’ and taking over it. However, from what I observe from my limited experience, only Turks deny the right to those whose land they have annexed, to even contemplate on the subject of their rights. Additionally, I observe that lately it has become a passion of yours to allege that Armenians have done the same a couple of millenniums ago. While I am not a specialist in such issues, and such issues have never been in the realm of my hobbies, I would appreciate if you could illuminate me as to what is the source of such hypothesis. 3. I have never alleged “conspiracy” while contemplating on the subject of the commitment if the Armenian Genocide. 4. I don’t know any more what you are trying to say, Ali. However, it has become a “handwriting” of yours to emphasize the hidden “context” of the Armenian Genocide, i.e. the Armenian participation in the revolutionary endeavors in Turkey. This thesis has been introduced by you as soon as you arrived to this forum, and it was immediately accepted. Also, not that it is a primary thesis of such prominent scholars in the area og the Armenian Genocide as Vahakn Dadrian. Therefore, all I can tell you, you are “overplaying that card.” Also, the entire Armenian literature is on the era subject to discussion is full of such accounts – most frequently way exaggerated accounts with the purpose of the “glorification of the Armenian sword.” Calling the Genocide Genocide does not do much. We all know that the process subject to discussions was Genocide. If you accept it (which I know you do) – good for you. What is it for us? What does it imply? So what are you proposing to do about it? Give me $1000 and allow me to “get” a piece if mud in where Turkey desperately needs investments, while transferring my account to a Turkish bank? I have no interest in it? All my grand-grandparents and their siblings etc, have been slaughtered, my grandparents, and partially my parents, have gone through the misery and its implications for decades, and you are going to tell me now that you are going to compensate all them/us/me? How are you going to compensate me? Tell me, please? Tell me what interest do I have in settling in Turkey? As far as getting over it is concerned… I have always claimed in this forum that we/Armenians need to get over it – for our own sake. You also need to get over it – but in a different way. You cannot get over it, as far as I am concerned, unless fully repentant. And I fail to see that repentance. To the contrary, every now and then I see you “waving sword.” You may say that you are being provoked by those who ask for land in this forum… Well, I guess for better or worse, you were held to higher standards here. And don’t worry (unless you have specific reasons to worry) that you may “surrender” lands in this forum. No land exchange is taking place in this forum, and I have contemplated multiple times that lands claims can be presented and, subsequently, agreed upon or denied by states. But what you are doing is to deny us even the right to have claims. That is very frustrating. Everything lse (positive) you say after that, pails on the background of this, since that’s how the Genocide has occurred in the first place – due to the Young Turks denial of rights to Armenians. 5. Your contemplation on the American, Australian, etc aggression has been unanswered (since you claim it) just because the comparison is faulty. It is just impossible to reply to everything, since then, this discussion would not ever converge, but to the contrary would grow like branches of a tree in all possible irrelevant in the context of our discussion directions. However, my partial reply to you can be found above. I have no interest in making rhetoric statements or appealing to your “graciousness” so that to receive lands. I will leave it to the two states. However, I am telling you that we have every right on the earth to want our lands. 6. About your contemplation on the Churchillian subject… I am on the same page with you. However, as Socrates says, “Plato is my friend, but the truth is more valuable.” But I am ready to sacrifice the truth for a good friend, if I know he/she indeed is a good friend (I have learned this from an incredible teacher of mine). 7. About remorse and the liberation from the legacy… What is your proposal other than for finding a “context,” “explanation” and “justification?” Now I have to go. I will continue when I can. Sorry for that.

quote:Originally posted by Rubo:MJ>There has not been a battle at Kars. The city was abandoned without a single shot. That is a treason committed by the ARF against the history of the Armenian Nation. Kars was last not due to Dashnaks policies or conspiracy but because of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk orchestrated and executed by the Bolsheviks! 3 March, 1918: The Peace Treaty of Brest-Litovsk Article III. The territories lying to the west of the line agreed upon by the contracting parties which formerly belonged to Russia, will no longer be subject to Russian sovereignty; the line agreed upon is traced on the map submitted as an essential part of this treaty of peace. The exact fixation of the line will be established by a Russo-German commission. No obligations whatever toward Russia shall devolve upon the territories referred to, arising from the fact that they formerly belonged to Russia. Russia refrains from all interference in the internal relations of these territories. Germany and Austria-Hungary purpose to determine the future status of these territories in agreement with their population. Article IV. As soon as a general peace is concluded and Russian demobilization is carried out completely Germany will evacuate the territory lying to the east of the line designated in paragraph 1 of Article III, in so far as Article IV does not determine otherwise. Russia will do all within her power to insure the immediate evacuation of the provinces of eastern Anatolia and their lawful return to Turkey. The districts of Erdehan, Kars, and Batum will likewise and without delay be cleared of the russian troops. Russia will not interfere in the reorganization of the national and international relations of these districts, but leave it to the population of these districts, to carry out this reorganization in agreement with the neighboring States, especially with Turkey. March 12- By Chekhengel’s orders, Kars is given to the Turks. Policies of Transcaucasian Federation's government resulted in loss of Kars. The chairman of Transcaucasian Federative Democratic Republic's government Mr. Chkhenkeli ordered Lieutenant-General Nazarbekov, commander of the Armenian corps, hand over the city to the Turks without fight for all that the general himself was categorically against that decision as his armies had a real opportunity to repel Turks' attack and to keep Kars fortress area for more than a month. The objections of the commander of the corps were rejected, and the city and the fortress of Kars that had all resources to stand against the enemy at least for a month was given up with almost no resistance. MJ I do question your loyality! Can someone explain me this? In one thread this idiot (forgive my French) claims himself to be shit and calls me fly attracted to it. In another thread he describes me as vomiting on ARF... Then, he sticks his head in the sand and whistles and wiggles his rear end trying to attract maximum attention (don’t know why). Just what is his surrealistic perception of himself (while he claims to be abstract expressionist)? For the rest of the forum … on the subject of Kars... Kars has exchanged hands twice in the 20th century, as mentioned by Steve above. First time, it has been under Caucasian Federation which has lasted till May 26th, 1918 (my date may be one or two days off). Subsequently, it has been recognized as part of the Republic of Armenia and has been under its control. In the fall of 1920 the demoralized Government of the Republic of Armenia has refused to organize the defense of Kars, which has been considered to be invincible fortress by all military experts of the time and has been equipped by all necessary means. Needless to say that Kars has been the gate of the Republic of Armenia. There is not a bad account of the abandonment of Kars by the Prime Minister of the Republic of Armenia of the time, Simon Vratsian (an ARF member), in his “Republic of Armenia.” True, he blames the Armenian Communists for this shameful treason – as if there was any difference, other than organizational, between the Armenian Communists and the ARF – now and then…

Ali, During the business week I cannot go into such lengths, and this weekend I have a trip. So I will try to reply to you later as much as my time allows.

Gamavor, There has not been a battle at Kars. The city was abandoned without a single shot. That is a treason committed by the ARF against the historyof the Armenian Nation. However, I think some more civility in this discussion would be much more adequate.

quote:Originally posted by HOVSEP KASHISHIAN:MJ,dont put wards in my mouth,when i said every church have its short coming that incloods the Armenian churh,dont act like Hagarag. Then why cannot we or should not we talk about it? Especially that it is not even a Church in the strict sense of the word?

quote:Originally posted by HOVSEP KASHISHIAN:What i am trying to say every church have its short coming. Love you all. Every Church but the Armenian...

Laila Ali wins first world title Sun Aug 18, 1:12 AM ET LAS VEGAS - With father Muhammad Ali cheering her on, Laila Ali won her first world boxing title Saturday night. Ali stopped Suzy Taylor at 1:11 of the second round to win the IBA super middleweight championship. "I was just getting started," said Ali, 12-0 with nine knockouts. "I was just getting warmed up." After Ali backed Taylor into the corner with lefts and rights to the head, Taylor grabbed and clinched. Referee Kenny Bayless separated the fighters, and Taylor (10-7-1) slumped in the corner, prompting Bayless to stop the fight. Muhammad Ali received a standing ovation when he entered the arena during the fifth round of the co-main event between Armenia's William Abelyan and Panama's Orlando Soto. Abelyan stopped Soto in the 10th round to win the NABO featherweight title. Abelyan improved to 20-4-1. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ila_ali_title_1

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: quote:Few last words. Never in our history, an Armenian Army has lost a battle to a Turkish Army – it has been quite the opposite any time the two armies have faced each other. MJ, to make a statement like that, your glasses must be more than just rose-tinted - they must be almost opaque!Give me examples.

quote:Originally posted by Rubo:Your basic argument that young Turks betrayed their principals of brotherhood, social equality etc. and turned against Armenians in the beginning of last century hold true for the present as well has serious flaws..... I think this is called aptitude problems or, at least Attention Disorder Deficit.

Ali, Let me express deep disagreement and disappointment with some of your elaboration. First, about the “center of the power of the empire being the Turkish nation, whose fatherland was the long neglected Anatolia.” I don’t understand at all what does this mean. Please explain me, first, what a “Turkish nation” meant at least from the perspective of the times subject to discussion. And what meant a fatherland for a “nation” who had invaded territories which could not in any possible way constitute fatherland in the context some of us are used to think about. To me the attitude of the young Turks to Armenians was very clear – Armenians where an instrument to be used in toppling the monarchy. Armenians did not join the Young Turks after the deposition of Abdul Hamid. Armenians were very instrumental in deposing him and had joined the Turkish revolutionaries from the very beginning. At least by 1905, the agenda of Independence of Armenia was out of the horizon of the Armenian Revolutionaries and the Reformation and the Revolution of Turkey was in. Armenian revolutionaries where in no way different from the Turkish Revolutionaries at the time – the ultimate betrayal of Armenian national aspirations had already taken place. In the big realm of things, I also consistently sense an underlying thesis in your contemplation – “we have done it, you have done it, we are almost even, let’s get over it and build together Turkey again.” And it disturbs me. It is clear that the sign of equality is the contemporary official Turkish line. I think it serves no purpose to give it to us, here, in this Forum, other than irritating the people. I have already contemplated on the subject of Turks losing “another inch of land. “ It was not Turks’ land to lose, in the first place. I have also contemplated about the “Russian threat.” This is a bogus argument. In fact, if anyone, Turks have been the threat in the region for centuries, and they have been the ones raiding the Southern borders of Russia,among other lands, as well as the Crimea for centuries. And if the Russians were seriously contemplating overrunning Anatolia, or at least if the Europeans, who you claim to be the foes of Turkey then and now, would not stand on the way of Russians, Turkey would’ve been wiped out from the pages of history centuries ago. Also, I am much disturbed in your attitude towards the “Armenian unrest.” Armenian unrest was not provoked by the Russians to any degree. First, you should not take the mentioned unrest “apart from being provoked by the appalling treatment of the Armenians in the 19th century.” How does one take such things “apart” is beyond my understanding. Freedom, Liberty and Sovereignty are fundamental premises of the history of nations. I am surprised that even after spending more than a year in this forum, if not for other reasons, you cannot understand these elementary things. I tend to come to an opinion that you merely cannot, since the ideals of Turkish imperialism are so deeply rooted in you. By the way – this pops out every now and then – I am not saying this out of anger or the like. Talk about Turkey not being regarded as Empire by young Turks… I also cannot understand why you are protesting the Russian meddling in the Balkan and other regions, while the Turkish meddling in any region is just a subject of pride for you, serving the purpose of the glorification of your “sword.” This is either very disingenuous and half-hearted, or you merely need to spend another year thinking about these, what one would think, transparent issues. I also have a reminder for the young Turks who want to build their neglected from the 16th century home. Don’t ever forget that your home is ‘our cemetery.” I also fail to believe lately that the “young Turks” you talk about in your message, “regret the recent past.” I have stopped believing in it for quite some time while following your materials. You are just searching for ways to get out of it and leaving behind the heavy legacy of your nation. You show no remorse, you just search for justifications – not any different from the official line of the Turkish government. If you had felt remorse, your bells would’ve “ding-danged” from a very different tower. I also have few words about your “open cards” play. Don’t ever overplay your cards. After all, your “size” doesn’t matter in “cards.” I remember calling your bluff off months ago, and you promised not to play that meaningless game of “Armenians becoming first-class citizens of Turkey by returning to their ancestral lands.” But you are doing it over and over again. Give us a little more credit, please, and understand that if we have to build something, that will be our own country - not somebody else’s. We may not have the military might of Turkey, and we may have deeper social and economic problems in Armenia than you have in Turkey. But things in our country may change with a snap of a finger, in the big realm of things, and we can easily recover. We have done it time-and-time-again. No matter how much we have fallen and how badly our moral has sunk, we have always demonstrated unparalleled resilience. While what Turkey has demonstrated for a century, now, if there is no one to plunder, it remains in eternal shambles. “None of us is proud of the past.” So what are you going to do about it? Warn us that if we don’t negate our rights, our “past” will become a reality again? What is your remedy for your and our past? Show us your remorse, first. And I don’t mean “your” in the generic sense of the word. Show me your remorse, Ali Suit. I fail to see it. As to your arguments about not taking lands from us but the Byzantine – it is very funny. It seems like you are “using” against me my own arguments in this forum (see /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...;f=18;t=000049). I am not talking to you about some esoteric ownership of some 1000 years old lands. I am not talking about such garbage as Sevres. I am talking about something very real – and you know it, and your government knows it perfectly, and this is what it is most concerned about. I am telling you that you have mutilated “my” body as late as in the last century. I am telling you that it hearts “me,” therefore I cannot forget about it. All you tell “me” is, “if you don’t want me to mutilate you further, then forget about it, and let’s sit together and mourn ourlosses.” It is absurd, Ali. And if this is something that Turks of your type cannot understand, there is no point to have any discussions with others. Also make sure that you understand how far do “your cards” take you – Trabezond is the only think which might be of interest to Armenia, economically speaking. But don’t exaggerate its importance to us so that not to illusion yourself trying to use it as a leverage over us. There exist two other Black see ports that we can have access to with less effort and less sacrifices. And I would translate here one of the absolutely correct arguments of one of our members – Georgians and Azeries have excellent relations with Turkey but it has not helped them to turn their countries into Paradise, as far as we are concerned. Believe me that many of us don’t feed ourselves with illusions, either. And before you promise us Paradise, which increasingly resembles the promise of one of the older Turkish members in this forum - Chircassian, “let’s make a deal – drop the Genocide allegations and any other type. Then, we may let you live and even have a role in the region.” It insults not only our emotions but also our intelligence – speaking of intelligence. Few last words. Never in our history, an Armenian Army has lost a battle to a Turkish Army – it has been quite the opposite any time the two armies have faced each other. Always remember this in case you decide to glorify the might of your sword, next time. This may require a little research from you, though, since I am sure they don’t teach it in Turkish schools. About Diaspora. Armenia is not run or financed by the Diaspora, as you have claimed lately. True, Armenia gets some help from Diasporan organizations such as AGBU and the types. But they have no control nor have attempted to control the foreign policy of Armenia. At most, they have controlled the elections of the latest disgrace on the throne of Etchmiadzin – they can have it. Those who have tried to control the political process of Armenia on the large scale, were banned from Armenia, and will be banned forever and dismantled, if they cross the line again. But let me appeal to your intelligence one more time – Diasporas don’t have influence over the Foreign Policies – even the “all-powerful Jewish Diaspora” doesn’t control the Foreign Policy of Israel, in fact it has absolutely no influence over it. Neither does the much more powerful than the Armenian Diaspora – the Irish Diaspora, control to any degree the serious processes in Irland. Diasporas don’t in any meaningful way, other than making a lot of noise, present land claims. States do. Diasporas do one thing – they gradually but consistently disappear – with different pace. There may be those amongst us, who would tie the Genocide to the land claims. They may be the ones unconsciously continuing being the toys of the Turkish ideology. But at the end of the day – they are irrelevant. And if you are going to continue playing this “card,” however “openly,” it is going to be your own loss. And if we have given to you a reason to believe that we are so anxious to sit with “you” around the “table,” I think you have grossly misunderstood the content of our interactions over the last year or so. As I have said lately, we have genuine interest in seeing Turkey join the family of civilized nations – at least because we are neighbors and none of us is going to disappear. Always remember that the Genocide is your legacy and the crime committed by you. It is up to you to deal with your own legacy and problems. We also have legacies of other types of ours. You deal with your own, and we will deal with ours. And if you think there are things for us to share with each other – let us know. But you have to be genuine. I wrote this material in a rush. It is a nice weekend, here, and I need to revitalize my energy after a draining week, before another similar one starts. [ August 17, 2002, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: MJ ]

quote:Originally posted by gamavor:MJ, As usual you are absolutely right. But after all who cares about turks? We should build our own house... This has been my underlying thesis throughout the two years of my presence in this forum.

In the view of the last few days culmination or the breakdown of our "international" relations, I have been thinking on the subject of the profile of Talaat, and the Young Turks, in general. The annals of Armenian history convey a story of Tallat and Grigor Zohrab being friends, if I am not mistaken, and even Zohrab saving once Talaat's life. Therefore, I think, Talaat has been a man of qualities and quite an educated one, judging at least by the company he has kept. Additionally, given that many Armenians have aligned with the Young Turks prior to the coming to power by the latest, one can suspect that Young Turks, in general, have not had an image of a monster prior to the Genocide. So how to understand the subsequent development of the events? What made the Young Turks the monsters they turned to be shortly after coming to power? I think there where few major contributing factors: 1. They did not want to see the end of the crumbling Ottoman Empire but wanted to save it. I mean to save the Empire, not mearly the "homeland." (This is similar to the attempts of Gorbachev. Many thought that Gorbachovian "perestroika" was meant to dismantle the USSR. However, all he was trying to do was to save it, though executed terribly from that perspective, obviously.) 2. They didn't recognize Armenians' rights, but saw Armenians merely as instruments to be used for their revolutionary endeavors for the sake of saving the Ottoman Empire. 3. They were extremely arrogant, however, smart and rational people devoted to the Ottoman Empire. They clearly understood the scale of the crimes they were committing, but they felt that their aspirations for the future of the Empire warranted the Genocide. Their primary goal was the securing of the place of Turkey under the sun. They committed the crimes not in the result of some kind of act of insanity but in the spirit of cold-blooded calculations knowing very well that they will be held responsible. However, for them the expected/desired outcome outweighed the horrendousness of the crimes they committed. 4. I am sure that they had "warned" Armenians several times - "behave, or else..." Their non-recognition of the rights of Armenians was not driven as much by strategic considerations as by their arrogance - "why should we give away any lands that we have conquered by blood." After all, even the surrender of the six villayets to Armenians would've not done any harm to their Empire. Moreover, the independence of Western Armenia vs. Eastern might have been very beneficial to Turkey at the time as a device for "dividing and conquering." and much like Russians had used Eastern Armenia as a buffer zone, they could've used Western Armenia as a buffer zone against Russia. I am sure they would've had the infinite support of the West in this game. 5. Finally, they committed the Genocide because they could, and the history gave them the opportunity in form of the WWI. Now, almost 100 years later, Turkey still has not emerged victorious out of the WWI, I think. It never managed to build adequate economic and monetary system, by in large remained feudal society and source of cheep labor, and as 100 years ago, now too it is being sustained by the Western countries due to their whatever strategic considerations, and it is still struggling for its "soul" and place on the Earth. Times are changing and so do the generations. But certain things are always cyclic in human history. Definitely, just like before the Genocide, in our days, too, there is a generation of well-educated young Turks of new quality, to assume the role of the saviors of their contemporary empire. The question is how different are these young Turks from the Young Turks. While some may be different, others manifest themselves as not being different at all - the some speeches of brotherhood and civility, human rights and high morals. However, the same arrogance and the same fundamental half-heartedness in their attitudes towards the others - the non-recognition of their rights. This recognition, I think, is the ultimate test of the civility of the Turkish society and the ultimate prerequisite for their elevation to the level of the civilized world and the cleansing of their own society. Everything else for now seems to be idle conversation. [ August 16, 2002, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: MJ ]

I think it might be proper if the President of Armenia declared Amnesty for those who have not served in the Army by leaving the country and allow the return of those who otherwise are reluctant to do so. The occasion may be, for example, the 1701 jubilee of the acceptance of Christianity as a State Religion.

Dear Sip, My apologies...but I couldn't hear the question. Could you repeat it, please? M.

Yes, Ali. Everything you say here, comes across as justification for the Genocide and lack of remorse. And then, it looks like, "now let's make a deal." And the Genocide did not occur in the vacuum. It occurred as a culmination of seven centuries’ of oppression, non-centralized killings, rape, forced conversion, looting, stealing of identity and heritage, and so on. I think you get the idea.

Movses, Kani vor ink@ bavakan "$$$$" arden steghtsel e, karogh e anvjar dzaraiutiunner matutsel Haikakan banakin. Vstah em vor banak@ atamnabuzhi shat medz karik uni. Ham el da kogni iren hetaga hatjakhordner havakel.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: This is just shameless... What a pity.

There you go, Movses: /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...=7;t=000101;p=5