MJ

I just imagined that I was a Jew and that Nazies were allowed to go live on a national network to say that the Holocaust never happened, that, actually Jews have slaughtered Germans during WWII! It pissed the hell out of me and I want to react very strongly. The problem is that now I want to go back to my Armenian state of mind but I am still so pissed off on Germans that I just can't understand how can Armenians compare the Holocaust with their so-called Genocide.

Agassi aims for fourth straight Australian Open crown January 25, 2003 MELBOURNE, Australia (Ticker) - Andre Agassi looks to become the first man from another country to capture four Australian Open titles Sunday when he faces underdog Rainer Schuettler. Agassi is one win away from becoming just the fourth man to lift the Australian Open trophy at least four times and the first non-Australian. Roy Emerson won a record six crowns (1961, 1963-67), and Jack Crawford (1931-33, 1935) and Ken Rosewall (1953, 1955, 1971-72) each captured four. With a win Sunday, the second-seeded American will hold the record for the most consecutive match victories at this event. He tied Ivan Lendl with 20 in a row Thursday with a 6-2, 6-2, 6-3 triumph over Wayne Ferreira in the semifinals. After capturing the title here in 2000 and 2001, Agassi withdrew from last year's event due to a wrist injury. He also won the tournament in 1995. Bidding for his eighth Grand Slam crown, the 32-year-old American has been awesome. He has dropped just one set and yielded only 43 games - 15 of those in his four-set fourth-round win over Frenchman Nicolas Escude. Agassi is the obvious favorite against Schuettler, the 31st seed. He will be appearing in his 14th career Grand Slam final while his opponent has reached a major final for the first time. The American will be gunning for his eighth career Grand Slam triumph - which would tie him for sixth on the all-time list - and 55th title overall. Schuettler has won just two tournaments since turning professional in 1995. However, the Australian Open often produces unpredictable winners. Last year's champion, Thomas Johansson, was not expected to beat Marat Safin, nor was 1998 winner Peter Korda, the underdog vs. Marcelo Rios. "It would be an unfortunate thing if you could sit in your home or your hotel room and phone in the result, because sports wouldn't be what it is if you could do that," Agassi said. "You've got to come out and play and you've got to come out and earn it, regardless of how many times you've done it (and) how many times you haven't done it. It's a job that still needs to get done." Agassi routed Schuettler, 6-1, 6-4, in their only career meeting in the second round at the 1998 BMW Open and has won 11 straight matches against German players. "Maybe he eats something wrong the day before, then I have a chance," Schuettler joked. "No, I have no pressure at all. I just go on the court. He's in good shape. He played the matches unbelievable. So I go out there, try to give my best." Schuettler became only the second German in the event's 98-year history to advance to the men's championship match here with a 7-5, 2-6, 6-3, 6-3 victory over ninth-seeded Andy Roddick. The 26-year-old, whose path to the final was eased when Safin - the third seed and last year's runner-up - withdrew from their third-round encounter with a wrist injury, joined 1991 and 1996 winner Boris Becker as the only German men to reach the finals at the Australian Open. Schuettler previously had never gotten past the fourth round at any major. "It's a dream for me, a dream to be in the final," he said. "Sometimes you have a dream and you're able to reach it. I guess it's one of the best moments of my life." Also Sunday, Martina Navratilova will try to make history when she teams with India's Leander Paes against Australian Todd Woodbridge and Greece's Eleni Daniilidou in the mixed doubles final. Navratilova, 46 and playing at this event after a 14-year absence, will try to become the oldest Grand Slam champion in the history of tennis. A win here also will give her a career sweep of all three titles - singles, doubles and mixed - at all four majors. The Australian mixed doubles crown is the only major title missing from Navratilova's career, which boasts 18 Grand Slam singles crowns, 31 major doubles championships and seven mixed doubles titles. From Yahoo News

Dear 564312, Off the top of my head, I can think of few exercises which may strengthen the endurance of your fingers... (just kidding). Now that you have listed the majority of the US population in your previous message, I have no arguments left. Also, where else can I refer you to so that you get familiarized with the fact before you talk about them if you refuse to read the Armenian and Russian sources? [ January 24, 2003, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: MJ ]

564312, I have to run out now. I probably will address your note in more details when I can - perhaps later tonight. Just two brief comments: 1. Your allegation of Jews owning America or corporate America means that you have never been in corporate America nor you know a lot about America, in general; 2. Your persistent allegation on the subject of the conditionality of our lands to Turkey by Russia are totally baseless. If you read French or Turkish, you can read the relevant treaties (two treaties) of 1921 at the Web Site of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Turkey. Perhaps some version can be also found in Russian sources. Additionally, the text of both treaties is widely available also in Armenian literature. Cannot comment on the rest of your statements now, and I am not sure who they are addressed either.

quote:Originally posted by TigrannesIII:About ownership----- how can we feel an ownership when many people in the Republic view us spiurgahyes as odar? I don't believe for a moment in what you say. P.S. I don't mean anything you say, but above. [ January 24, 2003, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: MJ ]

Did you read Nerssisian's material, Harut?

Hyebruin, That means you must be a really beautiful girl. Gay men like surrounding themselves with very good looking girls. They even compete with each other for the friendship of such girls. In general, they have much better appreciation for sheer beauty then we do.

quote:Originally posted by 564312:MJ thats what I know and learned I don't have any evidence with me right now. From where? An old woman told you so (it is an expression)?

quote:Originally posted by 564312:MJ Hogher@ trvel ein turkerin jamanakavor, on the condition of returning them back to Armenians. There is no slightest evidence hinting on it whatsoever.

quote:Originally posted by Sip:In case of a tie (you never know, it IS hye forum and someone may actually find a way to evenly split That must be Thoth.

quote:Originally posted by Arpa:He is in fact the "father of our histrigraphy", yet that does not totally absolve him of the sin of corrupting our history anf culture. The most blatant corruption is when he altered Haik's saga and refashioned it after Abraham's, when he claimed that we were the descendants of Noah. Errr.... I got to get my work done... Khorenatsi refers to Mar Abas Katina in his monograph as a source of the legend of Haik. The most interesting thing is that no one ever - scholar or otherwise, has heard of Mar Abas Katina from any other source other than Khorenatsi...

Hovsep Keshishian, If you have nothing else to do, why don't you get a Rosary and play with it. Next time I will offer you some other toys. By the way, on your way to a toy store, stope by at a school and try to finish it.

quote:Originally posted by 564312: For 70 years Armenia had no faith, why didn’t they ask Lenin to give back our lands? it was given to Turks conditionally. Menk chenk krvum urishneri het bayc irar por enk tapum.. che che havatk@ chi patchar@... What was the condition? Any sources about it?

Harut, First of all, we have to look at the sources of -our history - primarily monks. There are several occasions of gross inconsistencies in the narration of our history by the monks. Khorenatsi is the most outrageous example, and his History has been received by the scholars (by the way most of them Armenian scholars) very negatively. Imagine that you have history of Communist Party of Armenia narrated by the Ideological Division of the Central Committee of the Communist Party. Then, based on the developments of the events, you observe an outcome totally inconsistent with the narration. Wouldn't you feel skeptical about that narration? (Now, note that within 30 years period of time, Communists in Armenia (or USSR) had succeeded in making the masses buy their version of history – just because they had the machine at their disposal. Imagine how easy it was for the Armenian Church to do the same throughout the centuries.) Now, as far as Avarair is concerned, we have admittedly lost that battle - supposedly a battle to stand up for the right to worship Christianity in Armenia. After losing the battle (by the way, then Armenia already was not a sovereign country and was under the denomination of Persia, though with a lot of attributes of sovereignty), we have continued worshiping Christianity in Armenia at our will, and Persians (the winners) have not tried to change it. So how can one explain this? Where is the "moral victory" here? We where worshiping (at least on a formal level) Christianity for about one and a half century, and we have continued with no problems even later (even the Ottomans have not tried to change it - it suited everyone). For a critical mind, even just this much has to raise serious questions. What was going on in and around Armenia and its elite? Note that at the time, a very significant part of our population was still worshiping Zoroastrianism. This was our formal religion for centuries before the arrival of Christianity through Persians - Grigor Lusavorich, for example, and all our early Catholici, including Sahak Bartev, for example. Why the Zoroastrian Armenians qualify as traitors? I think this is illogical and not just unfair. When you lose a war and the enemy doesn't impose herself on you further, it should logically mean that the enemy has solved the problem and it has not been his agenda to go further than that. I don't have all answers. I just can tell you that things don't make sense in the conventional contemplation of our history by Khorenatsi or Eghishe. These are some discomforts with the “facts” that I am raising (between the work I have to do). The controversy about Avarair has been one of the most controversial ones in Armenian history and has surfaced up for several decades, at least. But it has always swiped under the rug. Note, also, that while being a secular scholar, Nerssisian himself is a priest (from what I understand). From all that I have seen in his writings, he is very diligent, he double checks his sources, gathers corroborative evidence (as the standards of the science of history require) and just because someone has written something, he doesn’t give it a free pass. May he be wrong? I am not aware of such allegation. In fact, what he claims is consistent with what others have pointed at decades ago. I have to go.

What a pathetic comedy.

Ping-pong, ping-pong, ping-pong...

Going back to the subject of this thread, one observation that I suspect has been missed is that Persians did not object the spread of Christianity in Armenia, then. They tolerated it even in Iran.

Not very convincing, I think, but noteworthy nevertheless. Philip Terzian: We have a little list Providence Journal(Projo.com ) 01/19/2003 WASHINGTON -- ONE OF THE STRANGER episodes in the war against terrorism occurred last month -- on Friday the 13th, to be exact -- when it was learned that the following Monday's Federal Register would contain a surprising entry. Henceforth, the Republic of Armenia would be added to the list of countries whose non-immigrant male nationals, resident in the United States, would be required to register with the Immigration and Naturalization Service. After Sept. 11, 2001, the INS demanded that nationals from countries believed to be harboring terrorists -- Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Libya, Sudan, the United Arab Emirates, among others -- comply with this special registration requirement. While the procedure was intrusive and, in certain cases, insulting to the individuals involved -- refugees, in many instances, from regimes back home -- there was a certain logic to it: Most of al-Qaida's recruits come from such places, where sympathy for Osama bin Laden is not unknown. But Armenia? There is no evidence that the population of Armenia has ever supplied a single foot soldier to al-Qaida (a claim which the United States of America cannot make!), and with good reason: Not only is Armenia overwhelmingly Christian -- since the 4th Century, no less -- and a historic victim of the (Islamic) Ottoman empire, but its government has been a stalwart supporter of the war against terrorism since Sept. 11. Indeed, last April 24, no less an authority than George W. Bush himself declared that the United States "is ... deeply grateful for Armenia's swift and decisive cooperation in the war against terrorism. "Just as the United States reached out to the Armenian people to provide shelter and freedom in the last century, so did Armenia extend a supportive hand to the American people in the immediate aftermath of Sept. 11. Our two peoples stand together in this fight in support of values that define civilization itself." What happened? As might be expected, Americans of Armenian descent, and Armenians in Armenia as well, were surprised and not a little disturbed by the news from the Federal Register. Telephones on Capitol Hill began ringing, and messages flooded the White House. It turns out that the Justice Department had acted on its own, in a manner of speaking: Sources in the State Department and on the National Security Council disclaimed responsibility and expressed consternation -- and words flew back and forth among the agencies over the weekend. The following Monday, with no official explanation, the White House reversed the Justice Department order, much to the relief of Armenian-Americans: "We are gratified that this issue was brought to the attention of senior administration officials," said a spokesman for the Armenian National Committee here in Washington, "and in the end, reason prevailed." But how did this happen? An official explanation, unfortunately, is hard to find. One version that was floated is that Justice ultimately wants to require all foreign nationals who require a visa to register with the INS. Since the countries already cited are Muslim, there had been some concern that any gradual expansion of the program should begin with a non-Muslim country. And John Ashcroft consulted the alphabet. So while Azerbaijan harbors al-Qaida behind its borders, it is also predominately Muslim, as is Albania. Andorra is too small, Austria is in Western Europe, and Angola is in sub-Saharan Africa. Armenia, unfortunately, lost the lottery. Another explanation, however, is more persuasive. Recep Erdogan, the leader of Turkey's new ruling Islamist party, had just visited Washington in December, and was frustrated. He had put pressure on the Bush administration to lobby for Turkish admission to the European Union, but the E.U. had rebuffed both the United States and Turkey. At the same time, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz had just visited Ankara where, in a startling departure from reality, he had praised Turkey's "historic" benevolence toward its minorities -- excluding, one presumes, those Kurds and Armenians massacred in the past century. Given Turkey's strategic importance in a war with Iraq, the Bush administration was reluctant to allow Mr. Erdogan to leave Washington empty-handed. The White House and State Department were also annoyed with Armenians for having frustrated efforts last spring to slip Turkey secretly into a U.S./Israel sweetheart trade bill. What better way to satisfy the Turks, even if symbolically, than to practically suggest that Armenia is on the wrong side of the war against terrorism? It was a brilliant device and inspired idea. And fortunately, for all concerned, it backfired magnificently. Philip Terzian, The Journal's associate editor, writes a column from Washington.

OK. Now we can discuss what the definition of dignity is… So let’s talk about the 3 million and my or your outlook, for example. I have said that Armenia’s infrastructure (and capacity) supports about 3 million population. I have also said it can be upgraded some but not significantly. If you have any issues with this statement and disagree, especially if you have any solutions in your mind other than a morph and superficial declarations on “let’s love each other and be family,” be professional and dignified enough to express your disagreements in a proper context. And talking about inclusivity, come out of your shell of defense and be included – all opportunities to be included have been provided - if nowhere else, then in this forum… Speaking of which, how many time in the 1.5 years of your existence in this forum you have engaged in the discussions on Armenia? But how many times have you engaged on subjects on Turkey and Turks in contrast? Has someone stood on your way and denied you access to the “family” as you define it? Has ever someone denied you access to anything that you now shamelessly ventilate on the subject of exclusivity? If you, due to your cowardice, not having the courage to face the bitterness of the reality, have decided to exclude yourself, and just come-in with an “hoopla” to tell Ali Suit “get out of here,” who do you blame for it? If you cannot accept just some elementary facts which may “scratch” your imaginary shell of defense, why is it the fault of my “snobbery and exclusivity?” Even if you can’t accept some facts, rather than the chip-on-the-shoulder posture you can layout your arguments – if you have any. Now if there are chips on my shoulder, too bad for me. It certainly is not good and I will work on it. However, if there are chips on your shoulder, don’t expect me to carry them. Finally, go back to the beginning of this thread and start reading it again, if you please. Then, with a better head, try to analyze again if I have said anything in this thread that has implied me excluding you. Then, if you have the courage, think again (if you wish) if there is anyone other than yourself who has attempted or can exclude you. During my entire presence in this forum and elsewhere, I have claimed that Armenia belongs to them and Armenians are those who claim ownership of Armenia. This is a very low threshold. There cannot be anything more inclusive that is not a mockery. If you feel excluded after this, it tells me only one thing - you are a coward to assume the liabilities which come with it. Then who is the snob amongst us? Now about agreeing or disagreeing. I have never made a deal “to agree or to disagree” with you or anyone else. I am not driven by “agreements or disagreements” nor driven by a desire to throw a “hoopla,” or to look “smarter than you are.” If I have something to say, I come forward and I say it. If I have an issue in my mind that I want to share, I come forward and I do it. I act, I don’t react. And certainly, I don’t wait for someone to send me an invitation to be “included.” I have included myself. Have you?

quote:Originally posted by HOVSEP KASHISHIAN:The Artsakhists chose to fight a battle that from any which angle you look at was a lost battle but still they chose to fight and look what happen to the azaries that out numberd and had more weapons , arent you glad that they chose to fight ,they could hide in their homs and wait to be finished , i think they were led by few Vartan Mamigonians ,not by the like of MJ and Arpa ,long years from now the Armenian people will still be looking at Vartan as a hero not at you guyes .

TB, We can "divorce" but we don't have to lose our dignity, meanwhile. So that to be clear what I am hinting at, I have made my comment about "3 million" a while ago. You have not responded then. Now, you are bringing my comment into our discussion in an out of the context manner. This is called chip-on-the-shoulder-cowardice. There is no place for such qualities in my family.

TB, From what I gather, we have reached a point that repeating our monologs (though addresssed to each other) on this subject doesn't promis any meaningful outcome and would be rather repetitive. There is very little that you say on the subject makes practial sense to me. Do, I will give myself the liberty of not repeating myself.

Arpa, I do think that the traditional Armenian society is still reminiscent of a fuedal society. That is what my argument (at least partially) is about in another thread.

Dear TB, “Before we formalize or divorce due to irreconcilable differences,” let’s try to see few things in perspective. I have never defined “our nation.” It will take quite some time for “our nation” to define and build itself (not rebuild). History has never given us that chance in the past and we are yet to become a nation. You can label my “vision” of Armenia with a term Inc all you want. That’s fine with me. I prefer that one to the one which would be called Perpetual Whining Loser Perennially Sorry for Herself. As far as dysfunctional families go, I think it is better not to form such families. Family is not a biological outcome. Family is a function. The reason you are happy with your perception of Armenians may be due to the fact that it is a comfortable refuge, it is easy and does not obligate one to anything and does not burden one – sort of “do not shake me. I have barely found my comfort.” The allegation on “reformed syndicates of organized crime” is immaterial for this conversation, so I will not go into it. But the environment Armenia is in (and will be), obligates her to be a “lean mean machine.” To a certain degree, it is a one. As far as the “nucleus” is concerned, maybe it doesn’t exist or maybe you haven’t even looked for it, but what is the moral of your statement? My WASP upbringing ( ) prevents me from seeing any outlook for “healthy competition” between the family and corporations. Competition is possible amongst the competitive parties. If one dares to see Armenian history through the eyes which have the courage to look at the truth, our “family” has always been on the losing side of history even way before the formation of “corporations.” And thank you for allocating a spot for me in your “family.” Have to run.

quote:Originally posted by WhiteHorse:1-if you were baptized in Armenian Church, church has you certificate, I assume you were baptized. 2- petition 3-beg 4-? 5-? 6. You can establish residency in the country subject to petition (as it is customary in normal countries) and then obtain citizenship according to the existing procedures.