MJ

Movses, You might have noticed that until lately, I have not spoken in favor of any of the candidates, even though some of them have been my personal friends and our friendship is pending at a good note. For more than 10 years, I have not interfered in the political process in Armenia. I would have not spoken even now, if not the outrageous climate that this regime has established lately (not that I have not been aware of their “bravery” before). I am outraged at the banditism that they have unleashed in Armenia. I know for sure who I don’t support. Of all that candidates with name recognition, Demirchyan is the only one that I have never known personally – he has never been involved in politics. Under the current circumstances, I think it is a dividend. I gather that he has been dragged into politics by the supporters of his assassinated father, who I have never supported, either. So I don’t have a personal opinion of him. However, the people whose judgment and character I trust find him to be the best candidate on the field. They tell me he is a solid guy, well read and smart. And I am not standing up for him. I am standing up for my friends and against those who I strongly believe will destract Armenia further. You call Demirchyan “papaya bala…” I think it doesn’t tell anything about him. He is not guilty to be the son of his father. That is not a crime. When this crook came to power in 96, I was glad. I felt that it was time for change, even though after the victory in the war I was very happy with Der-Bedrosyan, while being adamantly opposed to him before. As the old saying goes, “the victor is not judged.” Der-Bedrosyan was a formidable intellectual and much more moral person than this one – as grave as some of his mistakes have been. It is Der-Bedrosyan’s fault that Robik and Serjik (and their likes) are where they are today. They where the renegades from Karabagh at the time, not accepted and respected in Karabagh. Both where minor Communist Party functionaries without any weight in Karabagh. So they where looking for a function in Yerevan, and became members of HHSh to be part of the process. (Note that even now, they are neither respected nor loved in Karabagh – however, they have leverages). In a couple of words, Robik is the modern days Qach Nazar. As to Serjik, he was just a nerd who pretty much everyone could send to store to buy cigarettes, or as one has accurately put, lately, prior to 88 he was “serving tea to Kevorkov.” How tragic that today, such miserable figures would become the terrorizers of Armenia… As to the new potential “groups of wolves’,” this concept is much misunderstood. They were always there and they will be there in the future, too. When the climate is appropriate, they come to the surface. Whomever is at the power, these packs change their hats and become part of them. One might say, then, it would happen again, as you also indicate. Well, yes, unless this time the people claim ownership of their country. As you remember, a month or two ago I was totally pessimistic. I did not expect that the people will stand up for themselves. But they apparently did. No terror, no intimidation, no beating, no bribery, no snow, no storm stopped them. They rose up again – much like in 1988. But effective 1989-90, it went down – the people who they trusted cheated them. It lead to more than 12 years of nihilism in Armenia. Now, it seems that they have risen again to claim their country from the crooks. So, I am optimistic, again. Now, they have the experience of the last 12 years. Let’s hope that they have learned their lesson. I don’t necessarily expect that Demirchyan will win in the elections due to the fraud that I anticipate = however it is very likely. But, no matter what, I know that this regime has life of maximum several months. They are cooked – history has its own logic.

Hrant was always famous with his simple but penetrating language. _________________________________________________ §Àܸ¸ÆØàôÂÚ²Ü 700 в¼²ð Ò²ÚܺðÆ Øºæ âÎ²Ü Øºè²Ì ÐàÆܺð, ´²ò²Î²Üºð ºì ̲Êì²Ìܺð¦ 25.02.2003 Ò»½ »Ýù Ý»ñϳ۳óÝáõÙ ÙÇ Ñ³ïí³Í êÆØ Ý³Ë³•³Ñ, ²Ä å³ï•³Ù³íáñ Ðñ³Ýï ʳã³ïñÛ³ÝǪ ÷»ïñí³ñÇ 23-ÇÝ Ø³ï»Ý³¹³ñ³ÝÇ Ùáï ϳ۳ó³Í ѳÝñ³Ñ³í³ùáõÙ áõÝ»ó³Í »ÉáõÛÃÇó: §²Ûë ÁÝïñáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÇ »ÉùÁ ϳÝËáñáßí³Í ¿ñ ¹»é»õë ÑáõÝí³ñÇ 21-ÇÝ, »ñµ г۳ëï³ÝáõÙ ëÏë»ó •áñÍ»É Ñ³ñÛáõñ³íáñ ûñ»ÝùÝ»ñÇó Áݹ³Ù»ÝÁ Ù»ÏÁ, »ñµ Áݹ¹ÇÙáõÃÛ³Ý Ý»ñϳ۳óáõóÇãÝ»ñÝ Çñ³íáõÝù ëï³ó³Ý áõÕÇÕ »Ã»ñáí ¹ÇÙ»É Çñ»Ýó ÅáÕáíñ¹ÇÝ: Ø»Ýù ¹»é ã•Çï»ÇÝù, û áí ¿ñ ÉÇÝ»Éáõ ÅáÕáíñ¹Ç ÁÝïñÛ³ÉÁ, µ³Ûó •Çï»ÇÝù, áñ ÅáÕáíáõñ¹Á ѳÕûÉáõ ¿: гÛïÝí»Éáí ³Û¹åÇëÇ ÷³ÏáõÕáõÙª Çß˳ÝáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÁ ÷»ïñí³ñÇ 4-ÇÝ •áñÍÇ ¹ñ»óÇÝ Çñ»Ýó í»ñçÇÝ ÙÇçáóÁ: ö»ïñí³ñÇ 4-ÇÝ ³Ù»Ý³µ³ñÓñ ³ïÛ³ÝÝ»ñáõÙ áñáßí³Í ¿ñ µéÝáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñáí, ýǽÇÏ³Ï³Ý •áñÍáÕáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñáí ϳݕݻóÝ»É ÁÝïñáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÇ Ñ³ÕÃ³Ï³Ý ÁÝóóùÁ: ´³Ûó гÛÏ ´³µáõ˳ÝÛ³ÝÁ »ñ»ù ÁÝÏ»ñÝ»ñáí ϳݕݻóñ»ó ³Û¹ á×ñ³•áñÍáõÃÛáõÝÁ: гÛÏÇ ³ñÛ³ÝÁ Ù»Ýù áã û å³ï³ë˳ݻóÇÝù ³ñÛáõÝáí, ÇÝãå»ë Çñ»Ýù ¿ÇÝ ëå³ëáõÙ, ³ÛÉ å³ï³ë˳ݻóÇÝù ù³Õ³ù³Ï³Ý ѽáñ ù³ÛÉáí. ²ñï³ß³ïÇ, ²ñ³ñ³ïÇ Ù³ñ½Ç ÅáÕáíáõñ¹Á »Ï³í áõ áã ³ë³ó »¯õ ØáõÏÇÝ, »¯õ Ù³ñ½å»ïÇÝ, »¯õ èáµ»ñï øáã³ñÛ³ÝÇÝ: гÕÃ³Ï³Ý ÁÝïñáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÁ ß³ñáõݳÏí»óÇÝ ÙÇÝã»õ ùí»³ñÏáõÃÛ³Ý ûñÁ: ö»ïñí³ñÇ 19-Çݪ ųÙÁ 18-ÇÝ, Çß˳ÝáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÁ, Ëáõ׳åÇ Ù³ïÝí»Éáí, ÁÝïñáõÃÛáõÝÝ»ñÇ ÁÝóóùÁ ¹áõñë µ»ñ»óÇÝ Çñ³í³Ï³Ý ¹³ßïÇó »õ Ùï³Ý ù³Õ³ù³Ï³Ý ¹³ßï, áñï»Õ Ýñ³Ýù ï³å³ÉíáõÙ »Ý í»ñçݳϳݳå»ë: øí»³ñÏáõÃÛ³Ý ûñÁ »ñ»ÏáÛ³Ý ³ñ¹»Ý Í»Íáí-ç³ñ¹áí ¾çÙdzÍÝáõÙ, ì³ñ¹»ÝÇÏáõÙ, ²ñï³ß³ïáõÙ Ù»ñ Ý»ñϳ۳óáõóÇãÝ»ñÇÝ ¹áõñë ¿ÇÝ Ñ³ÝáõÙ ï»Õ³Ù³ë»ñÇó, áñå»ë½Ç Ýϳñ»Ý ³Û¹ Ï»Õïáï Ãí»ñÁ: ²Ûëûñ Ï³Ý Ù³ñ¹ÇÏ, áíù»ñ ³ëáõÙ »Ýª èáµ»ñï øáã³ñÛ³ÝÁ 700000 Ó³ÛÝ áõÝÇ, »õ ¹³ »ñ³ßËÇù ¿ ѳÕûÉáõ ѳٳñ: ºë ÑÇß»óÝáõÙ »Ù Ýñ³Ýó, ûÏáõ½ ³Û¹ Ãí»ñÇÝ Ñ³í³ï³Ýù, ûÏáõ½»õ 0,2 ïáÏáë ï³ñµ»ñáõÃÛ³Ùµ, ÙÛáõë 700.000 Ó³ÛÝÁ ÅáÕáíáõñ¹Á ïí»É ¿ Áݹ¹ÇÙáõÃÛ³Ý Ý»ñϳ۳óáõóÇãÝ»ñÇÝ: ºí Áݹ¹ÇÙáõÃÛ³Ý ëï³ó³Í Ó³ÛÝ»ñÇ Ù»ç ãÏ³Ý Ù»é³Í Ñá•ÇÝ»ñ, ѳÝñ³å»ïáõÃÛáõÝÇó µ³ó³Ï³ Ù³ñ¹ÇÏ, ãÏ³Ý Í³Ëí³ÍÝ»ñ: ²Û¹ 700.000-Á µÝ³ÏãáõÃÛ³Ý ³ÛÝ ç³Ëç³ËÇã ٻͳٳëÝáõÃÛáõÝÝ ¿, áñÇ íñ³ Ù»Ýù ÙÇßï ÑáõÛë»ñ »Ýù ¹ñ»É: Ø»ñ áõÅÁ ÅáÕáíñ¹Ç Ù»ç ¿, »õ ³Ûëûñ ³Û¹ ÅáÕáíáõñ¹Ý ³Ûëï»Õ Ï³Ý•Ý³Í ¿: ²Ûë áõÅÁ µ³í³Ï³Ý ¿, áñå»ë½Ç ÅáÕáíáõñ¹Ý ³Ûë •³ñݳÝÁ Çñ Çñ³íáõÝùÝ»ñÇ ï»ñÁ ¹³éݳ »õ ϳéáõóÇ ³ÛÝ »ñÏÇñÁ, áñÁ ÙÇßï »ñ³½áõÙ ¿¦: P.S. Don't get why it doesn't come across correctly. [ February 25, 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: MosJan ]

Dear Arpa, The article is about corruption.

No... Unfortunately it is much more banal. It is about "eating soup," but the question is "who eats whose soup..."

quote:Originally posted by Arpa:Do you see what I see? Are not the Armenian "oukht" and the English "oath" tantalizingly homophonous? Interesting observation.

For those who read in Russian, I recommend the article referenced below. One has to start from the issues 98, 99 and 100. http://www.iravunk.com/rus/2002/12/p10111.html

quote:Originally posted by Arpa: The Armenian equivalent of "pilgrim" is "oukhtavor" and "pilgrimage" is "oukhtagnatsum". "oukht" in fact means and "oath"" a "vow", i.e swearing on a sacred object. [banging my head ] Of coarse the word "oukhtagnatsun" is the proper translation of the word "pilgrimage." Shame on me...

The article below makes an impression of Geghamyan being a sore loser. (He has always been known to have a huge ego.) There is an interesting picture in the source page next to him. The younger person is Hmayak Hovhannessyan. In the years of my graduate studies in Moscow I have overlapped with him, though have not ever had personal relationship. Then, Hmayak was being referred by a dual name - xxxx Hamo (sorry - cannot use the full nick name here). He had free access to Kremlin, and was spending significant time there on a daily basis. However, it was recognized that he was a very competent and smart guy. In general, there are so many old names (with old stories behind them) in this article (and the latest events in general) that it makes me chuckle. _________________________________________________ None of the Above: Geghamyan refuses to support either candidate, claims only he can save the country from bloodshed By Marianna Grigoryan ArmeniaNow reporter Third-place candidate Artashes Geghamyan has removed himself from any participation in next Wednesday's runoff, but the veteran politician by no means left the fray quietly. Late Monday, Geghamyan, whose 17 percent in the first round of voting is thought to have potential influence on the runoff between President Robert Kocharyan and Stepan Demirchyan, made statements that surprised and likely disappointed his Opposition colleagues. Geghamyan announced that he would not give his support to either candidate, claiming that the initial vote was rigged by the President to face Demirchyan because Kocharyan knew he would face "inevitable defeat" in a runoff with Geghamyan. But it is a much more inflammatory comment from Geghamyan that drew reaction from the Opposition. "The incumbent Armenian authorities know perfectly well that they will be executed by firing squad if the opposition wins," Geghamyan said, adding: "Everything was done to prevent me entering the second round of the elections, although it was Artashes Geghamyan who was the guarantor that no blood would be shed in Armenia." The latter comment drew sharp reaction from Demirchyan supporters. "Our candidate has never said anything about physical reprisals," said Demirchyan campaign manager Grigor Harutyunyan, who called Geghamyan's remarks "incomprehensible." "I share Mr. Geghamyan's view on mass irregularities," Aram Sargsyan of the pro-Demirchyan Hanrapetutyun party told Radio Free Europe (www.armenialiberty.org). "On this issue (of potential violence) Artashes Geghamyan has gone too far. I don't like his reference to some bi-lateral clans. It's too emotional." Today Geghamyan said he will appeal to the Central Election Commission to have the election declared invalid and if he is not satisfied with the CEC's response will take his claim to Constitutional Court. Meanwhile lesser-know candidate Aram Harutyunyan, who got less than one percent of last Wednesday's vote said he will not support Demirchyan. Much of Monday and Tuesday's attention focused on specifics surrounding the arrests of several dozen Demirchyan supporters. The Ministry of Justice says 99 people have been arrested in Yerevan and surrounding regions. Demirchyan headquarters claimed more than 130 arrests have been made in the past two days, and that those taken into custody include members of the Demirchyan campaign staff. Some were arrested then released, while 33 remain in custody, according to "Tanik" a Non-Governmental Organization dealing with judicial and human rights issues. The arrests were for "holliganism", for insulting police and for participation in a non-sanctioned public demonstration. (The head of the Yerevan Municipality legal department told ArmeniaNow that only in cases in which an organization wants to have streets closed or use police for crowd control is it necessary to apply for a city permit.) Those detained face up to 15 days in jail and will not be allowed to vote next Wednesday. The majority of the detained are said to be Demirchyan proxies. At a press conference today, Ashot Bleyan, director of Tanik said those in custody are being held illegally, as some were not allowed to attend their own trials and some were not allowed attorney representation. "The judge announced to everybody that he himself is violating the law by having closed trial sessions and that he will do whatever he wants to," said Parliament Member Arshak Sadoyan, who spoke to the presiding judge on behalf of the arrested. Republican Party member Armen Mkrtchyan, head of Arabkir electoral committee said police came to his house early in the morning Sunday to arrest him. Mkrtchyan said he called journalists and when television reporters appeared the police left. "What is happening in the post-election period can be described as state terrorism," says Avetik Ishkhanyan, head of the Armenian Committee of Helsinki, who is now trying to protect people's rights through participating in the juridical procedures. "Sometimes they are being taken to the police departments, threatened and then set free. Sometimes they are being arrested or subjected to administrative fines. There are many cases of people not sleeping at their homes, they just escape. There are also cases when relatives do not know where their children are. Yesterday a villager from Vedi addressed me telling that it had been three days he didn't know where his son was. The police took him away and the place where he was taken is unknown." Ministry of Justice spokesman Ara Saghatelyan denied any political motivation in the arrests, citing Article 180 of the Code on Administrative Misdemeanors. In other election-related news Tuesday, U.S. Ambassador John Ordway said his Embassy shares the views of the OSCE report on election violations. However, Ordway denied that the US had announced that in case of five percent violations it would not recognize the elections as legitimate. (ArmeniaNow reporter Zhanna Alexanyan contributed to this report.) http://www.armenianow.com/2003/specialedit...ion/february25/

quote:Originally posted by Arpa:Dear Martin, we would be better off to ignore this thread. Dear Arpa, I have no objections. As you might've noticed, my "early detection device" recommended sending it to the Humor section, however, there where parties interested in engaging in discussions. If a discussion had to be held, then I thought we should do it in a proper context.

Could some one verify is such person as "Daud Kheyriyan" really exists, if yes, that he has indeed written such book as "For the sake of the cross," or whatever, and then, to verify that it has more than 18 pages? And if the answer of all that is "yes," I would like to know where has that book been published and by whom, and I would like to buy it.

The internet bases votes are deprived of scientific base ( I am referring to the Science of Statistics - as much as it may be considered science) and reflect the inclinations of those who have access to internet, are familiar with the site or wish to vote. Also, one may conjecture that the major chunk of the voters there are from Diaspora, which doesn't reflect the internal moods of the citizens of the Republic.

quote:Originally posted by THOTH:Thanks for this post MJ

I think the usage of the word “pilgrimage” in the discussed context depends on who are we trying to appeal to – older people identifying themselves with the Church (who more likely would have the money for the journey) or to the younger generation who has some positive agenda of bringing attention to the decaying monuments and to achieve some spiritual goals. I am pretty sure about the Echmiadzin site. It is known (sorry don’t remember the source) that Echmiadzin has been built on the site of a pagan temple, which has been destroyed so that to use the stones in the construction of the cathedral.

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: PS: Strange thing, the word "holiday" (holy day) has gone exactly the oppposite way - originally 100% religious, now 100% secular (although Americans seem to go about wishing each other a "happy holiday" at Christmas, a practice that now seems decidedly strange to Britons, but which must result from the original usage being preserved in America and lost in Britain.[/QB] Americans use the term “Happy Holidays” on Christmas, when they are not sure about the religious affiliation of the counterparty, and they are aware that the other person might be Jew, militant atheist, etc.

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat:

The material below may be considered timely. _________________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- KHOJALI TRAGEDY WAS ORGANIZED BY AZERI SIDE: Artsax'S MP Arminfo 24 Feb 2003 FEBRUARY 24. All the facts available testify that the Khojali (Xocali) tragedy was organized by the Azeri side for attaining certain goals in the fight for power between the People's Front of Azerbaijan and the then government of the country, led by Ayaz Mutalibov, chairman of the Standing Commission on Foreign Issues of Artsax's Parliament Vahram Atanessyan told ARMINFO's own correspondent in Stepanakert. He said that not to be strangled by Baku the Artsax population simply had to eliminate the fire positions in Khojali, where the enemy had quite big human and technical resource, and to liberate the local airport. The Artsax side had notified Baku of its intentions two months before the operation and this fact has been repeatedly confirmed by President Mutalibov and human rights activist Arif Yunus. The Artsax side told the Baku, Khojali and Agdam authorities that it had opened a corridor for evacuating civilians from the battle zone. "The Armenians had left a corridor for our people," Mutalibov said himself in an interview to Nezavisimaya Gazeta, Apr 21 1992. But the column of civilians was shot down near Agdam, which was qualified by Mutalibov as an attempt of the opposition to remove him from power by shifting the blame on him. According to Atanessyan, the Azeri media were actively covering "the exodus", and though only 1,000 people were left in Khojali by Feb 25, they were reporting casualties 2-3 times exceeding this figure. As for the shots of numerous bodies, they were made 3 km of Agdam and 11 km of Khojali, that is on the territory controlled by the Azeri troops, a territory to which the Artsax side could not simply have access. The shots made by Chingiz Mustafayev picturing shocking scenes were disseminated with Turkey's help worldwide. Mustafayev made the video-recording during an exchange of Armenian and Azeri bodies. In fact he made two films in two days. By the time of the second recording some bodies were disfigured. And all this happened on the territory fully controlled by the Azeris till the summer 1993. Obviously doubting that the killings were made by Armenians, Mustafayev began his own investigation, just to be killed himself near Agdam after reporting to Moscow's DR-Press news agency on a possibility of the Azeri side's complicity in the Khojali crime. Yet another evidence that the Khojali crime was committed by the Azeri side, particularly, by the Azeri aviation through the Ganca air corridor, is the diary of the then head of the Khojali administration Elman Mamedov.-

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LESSONS OF POLITICAL MATHEMATICS By David Petrosyan February 24, 2003 The Central Electoral Commission (CEC) is known to have stated on February 16 that the total number of eligible voters included in the voter lists for the February 19 presidential elections was 2 million, 295 thousand, 330 people. Meanwhile, according to the official information of the Visa and Passport Department of the RA Police, 2 million, 246 thousand, 14 people were issued passports in 1995-2003. Judging by the declared number of voters, their number exceeds by 50,000 the number of people bearing passports (as far as we know, no one or nearly no one voted on the basis of "old" Soviet passports on Election Day). About 250,000 people having passports are aged above 16 but below 18, i.e. they were not eligible to vote. If we take into account the number of people who were issued passports and then died, as well as those who went abroad, it turns out that the real number of voters hardly exceeds 1 million, 800 thousand people, i.e. nearly 500,000 fewer than the number declared by the CEC. This is the first lesson of political mathematics that the CEC taught the voters, candidates and their supporters, international observers and journalists. According to the official report of the CEC, the number of voters issued ballot papers half an hour before the closure of the vote was 1 million, 216 thousand, 503, and the final showing of the number of voters who were issued ballot papers (announced by the CEC with a six-hour delay) stood at 1 million, 464 thousand, 93. According to the provided information, during the closing 30 minutes, about 250,000 voters (to be more precise 247,590) voted countrywide. On the average, over 100 people within 30 minutes in each precinct, which is technically impossible. This is the second lesson of Armenian political mathematics. We think that keeping their own account of the votes, the opposition leaders assume as a reference point the figure of 1 million, 216 thousand cited above, considering the above-mentioned 250,000 to have been illegally added in favor of Robert Kocharian. Opposition sources estimate that the real number of votes cast for the incumbent president does not exceed 250,000 (i.e. about 20%, which, in principle, corresponds to the real electoral resource). It proceeds from this that the rest 900-950 thousand votes were distributed among the other presidential candidates, first of all Stepan Demirchian and Artashes Geghamian. Naturally, a question arises: in what proportion? According to one version, Stepan Demirchian polled over 50% of the vote (i.e. over 700,000 real votes). Some more ardent supporters of Demirchian contend that he had garnered about 800,000 votes, which seems to be exaggerated), and the second place was won by Artashes Geghamian. Another, more prevalent version suggests that the second round is to be held between Stepan Demirchian and Artashes Geghamian. It is practically impossible to verify the genuineness of this information and these versions, as mass unsealing of packages with ballot papers, stuffing of new ballot papers in the packages with ticks in favor of Kocharian has been conducted countrywide over the last several days (still on February 17 and 18 the opposition revealed and presented to the public ballot papers ticked in favor of the incumbent president. Judging from the provided documents, the state machinery intended to conduct a kind of "parallel" elections, in doing which it partially succeeded) and, on the contrary, withdrawal of ballots cast in favor of opposition representatives. The substitution of ballot papers is likely to be aimed at adjusting the final figures of the first round announced by the CEC with the number of ballot papers cast for Kocharian and other candidates. Thus, if any of the opposition candidates applies to the Constitutional Court demanding that a recount of votes be conducted, even if the suit is satisfied, his action may yield no result in several days. The team of the incumbent president insists on the official results of the vote presented by the CEC, according to which the incumbent president received over 700,000 voters out of 1 million, 464 thousand. Comparing the official data on the votes cast for the incumbent president and the presumable real number of votes cast for Robert Kocharian in the opposition's opinion (see above), it becomes clear where the figure of 400-450 thousand falsified votes was taken from (this is the sum of 250,000 "faked" and 150-200 thousand "stuffed" and "erroneously counted" pro-opposition votes in favor of Robert Kocharian). We would remind you that six out of nine members of the election commissions of all levels are supporters of the incumbent president. This is the third lesson of political mathematics in Armenia. Mass violations in the run-up to the elections and vote count, refusal to accept complaints and other violations of the Electoral Code exceeded by their scope all the violations during the previous presidential elections (1996 and 1998). All these circumstances resulted in a rather tough assessment of the Armenian presidential elections by international observers (OSCE and Council of Europe), which called the legitimacy of the elections into question. In this respect, the reaction of the opposition in the form of mass rallies and marches of protest towards different state establishments (CEC, Prosecutor's Office, Government, etc.) looks quite natural (according to various estimations, no less than 70,000 people participated in these actions). At the same time, one should not rule out that the number of those rallying in Yerevan may increase and such demonstrations may start in other cities and towns of Armenia as well. In light of the facts mentioned above we came to the following conclusions: - For the first time since the USSR's break-up the incumbent failed to win outright in the elections in the countries of the South Caucasus and Central Asia; - Mass demonstrations of protest and calls to recognize the leading opposition candidate as the winner of the elections are reminiscent of the political processes witnessed in the wake of the 1996 presidential elections in Armenia and the 2000 presidential elections in Yugoslavia; - President Robert Kocharian has fallen into a political trap. The international community has made it quite clear to the current leader that in case of a similar vote in the second round, he will not be recognized as a legitimate head of state. Meanwhile, Kocharian can barely claim a flawless victory, which is evidenced by the real and not officially declared results of the first round. If the situation maintains its intensification-prone profile it may well turn out that some interested countries (like Russia and France) may give Mr. Kocharian and his family with a transport lift to leave Armenia; - We still consider that there is a high degree of likelihood of clashes between the opposition supported by the majority of the nation and the militarized structures under the supervision of the R. Kocharian - S. Sargsian duo. We believe the authorities might resort to the use of firearms with a view to "establishing order." That's why we would like to draw the attention of our readers to the media reports that riot police had been armed with rubber bullets days before the polling day. Under the circumstances, Robert Kocharian and his team stake on the use of force (detentions of opposition candidates' proxies who tried to prevent fraud). Only the top leadership of ARF-Dashnaktsutiun shows real political support to the president, while the other pro-presidential parties do not exhibit due diligence in supporting Robert Kocharian. The opposition is brought under fire by two following political schemes: - As Armenian society wasn't informed by the Kocharian-supervised electronic media on the true political meaning of the OSCE and PACE missions' reports on the election outcomes (the pro-presidential media reflect merely the political side of the preliminary statement issued on February 20), only the CIS mission report is cited (the latter described the elections as free, fair and transparent). On the basis of that we may assume that all the fraud allegations are nothing but opposition conjectures; - The opposition is blamed for mass falsifications due to the following logical formula: "You were losing, that's why you were resorting to fraud." All that we mentioned above leads us to conclude that February 19 marked the beginning of the process of the president's removal from power. The events of the coming days will show what form it will take and how long it will last. "The Noyan Tapan Highlights" N7, February, 2003

That other genocide By Ronie Parciack Ha'aretz Friday, February 21, 2003 Unbelievable horror: the Turkish massacre of the Armenians. "Mishnei Evreha Shel Makhloket Beinleumit" by Taner Akcam, translated into Hebrew by Erga Heller with an introduction by Yair Oron, Babel, 167 pages, NIS 53 (English edition: "Across an International Divide: Essays Toward a Turkish-Armenian Dialogue," Zoryan Institute, 2001, 101 pages) Let it be said loud and clear: This book is an event, and on more levels than one. It tells the story of the historical atrocity perpetrated by the Turks against the Armenians and seeks to pull the veil off what has become a forgotten genocide - what Yair Oron, in his introduction, calls the "pact of forgetfulness," and Taner Akcam calls "collective amnesia." But that is not all. The book goes beyond the Turkish-Armenian conflict to touch on some of the basic premises of Israeli culture. It reexamines and questions these premises, and at the same time, attempts to awaken historical awareness - and morality - from their slumber. In effect, the Hebrew edition of "Across an International Divide" is composed of two complementary parts: One is a collection of brief essays by the human rights activist and academic scholar Taner Akcam that addresses the Ottoman government's genocide of the Armenians in World War I and analyzes why it is difficult but imperative to implement Turkish-Armenian dialogue; and the other is a comprehensive introduction by Yair Oron. Although the title of the book refers to Akcam's essays, structurally they are really secondary to Oron's contribution. The division is not just a formal one. While Oron offers a sweeping historical introduction that makes Akcam's work more accessible, it is much more than a crutch for readers who are not sufficiently acquainted with the historical particulars. His work serves as a cultural anchor and an impetus for getting Israeli readers to look at basic concepts in their culture and achieve insights about their own nation and its relationship with other peoples - past and present. But first, a word on the main animus of this book - the Armenian genocide. In effect, two histories unfold in the work of Oron and Akcam. One is a horrifying, blow-by blow account of what happened in those years - 1915-1917 - that the world has tried so hard to block out. Here are some of the facts presented by Oron: More than half the population of the Ottoman Armenian empire was wiped out (with the assumption being that there were 2-2.5 million Armenians at the time), and the rest were forced to leave the historic homeland where their ancestors had lived for nearly 3,000 years. The killings and deportations were carried out by the sovereign government of Ottoman Turkey as the diplomatic representatives of its allies - Germany and Austro-Hungary - looked on. Hidden, haunting history These horrors, only a tip of the iceberg, lay the groundwork for what came next: a hidden history that haunts the present and unconsciously determines it - a history of silence and denial. In this book, several channels of denial are laid bare: the constant haze surrounding the actuality of the event, the official government claim that there was no deliberate policy to exterminate the Armenians, the relatively limited international recognition of Armenian genocide and, on the other hand, the erasure of all memory of the Armenians and Armenian history in Turkey today. Who knows, for instance, that Anatolia was once called the Armenian highlands? Beyond the disclosure itself, the book dwells at length on the implications of this repression. One of the leading arguments is that "the absence of real dialogue between the Turks and the Armenians, of open discussion about genocide and recognition that it took place, are genuine obstacles in the democratization process of Turkish society." The issue is a sensitive one that supersedes the psychological and pragmatic concerns of the Turkish nation (demands for compensation, territorial compromise, being voted out of the European Union, etc.), and touches on the roots of the debate on nationalism - or, to be more precise, the roots of the uniqueness and exclusivity upon which national identity is built. Akcam brings the pain of a national trauma as an example: "Pain is the most powerful element of collective memory. That is why it is very easy for the nation state to structure its history around the theme of collective pain and remembrance. Whenever one attempts to rewrite history based on this collective memory, it is almost necessary to omit other nations and redefine them as the other." In other words, building up nationalism is accomplished by the symbolic division of the world into "self" and "other," a division that stands out all the more in traumatic historical contexts. Views that are perceived as threatening the symbolic borders and self-images that unify and protect the nation are rejected out of hand, thereby destroying the basis for any coexistence of history and the other, i.e., the pluralism which serves as the bedrock of democracy. Democracy depends on the concurrence of different narratives, and that is what makes recognition of the Armenian genocide so imperative. As Akcam puts it: "Instead of imagining the same period according to the needs of the nation state and instead of writing it as the histories of two rival nations, is it not possible to reread the history of 1915-1917 with a common historical perspective?" Moral validity In a broader sense, this brings us to fundamental questions that lie at the very core of Israeliness - and that is where Oron's essay comes in. Considering the solidarity that would seem to be par for the course between peoples who have undergone systematic genocide, and considering the centrality of the Holocaust in Israeli discourse, one might expect the Armenian genocide to have real resonance in Israeli culture. Surprisingly, however, the State of Israel has consistently ignored it. Representatives of the state do not participate in memorials held by the Armenians every year on April 24; the subject is rarely broached in public; TV documentaries exploring this topic have been kept off the air; and very few books have been published (one exception being Franz Werfel's novel "The Forty Days of Musa Dag"). What explanation can there be for Israel turning a blind eye to the trauma of the Armenians? Is it connected to the unique status of the Holocaust and the way this event colors Israeli nationalism, with its inherent sense of victimhood? In what way does this "handcuff" Israel? Does it also radiate to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and its trauma? Writing with skill and the sensitivity of a person who knows something about national trauma and the weight attached to them by his readers, Oron makes a strong and broadly argued case that assumes even more moral validity by being published now. At a time when the voice of the intellectuals has grown inaudible and weak, when national crisis has led, understandably, to a mad dash toward the protective shield of consensus, which only intensifies the preoccupation with nationalism, the publication of this book in its current format is a courageous political act - or better still, an act of true intellectualism. Ronie Parciack is studying for her Ph.D. in philosophy at Tel Aviv University.

Could the moderators move this thread to the Humor Section, please?

Stormy, As disagreeable as I find your response and the very premise of your assumptions along with your emotions, I don't find it warranting the drainage of my energy on the subject.

quote:Originally posted by Stormy:Dunno, I've noticed mention of pilgrims at least once on this site: http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/khtz...nk/khtzkonk.htm In 1878, after the Russian conquest of the Kars region, Khtzkonk was returned to the Armenian Church. The buildings were renovated and religious life resumed within the monastery. New accommodation was erected for monks and pilgrims - these were built along the edge of the main spur, beside the river in the gorge below, and also to the north-west of the Saint Sargis church. Wouldn't you agree that those sites in such remote, desolate places were too beautiful to be left unvisited and just for the purpose of keeping the monks busy? I just noticed the above comment, Stormy. The referenced photos are indeed breathtaking. I am not even sure that in Armenian language there is an equivalent of the word "pilgrim" the way it is perceived in English. Since the Arab conquest, I think, the word "gharib" has been put into circulation in Armenian society, and it is reflected in the poetry of the time, as well as in the pages of the poetry of the early 20th century. That is the closest that I can think of, which comes closest to the word “pilgrim” in Armenia. ( Would like to stand corrected if I am wrong. ) And the word “gharib” has more of a meaning of “immigrant” then a “pilgrim,” the way we understand it in English. Thanks for the comment, Azat. I will stand corrected.

Thanks, MosJan. These days it seems like Armenia is under informational blockade.

That may be not such a negative thing at this stage. More specific you are in a campaign, more people you alienate. His task for now is to build an alliance. Additionally, there is no program that Armenia needs to be articulated at this time. There is no lack of programs in Armenia. There is a problem of execution and finalization of the transformation of the Republic into a constitutional one. It requires a government which not in the hands of criminal elements, has no former political luggage, and a man who is good in his nature and can bring together a good team. The rest will come. In principal issues such as foreign policy, broad economic structure, national security, pretty much all candidates will do the same thing - this is not something that has to be invented now - this course was setup sometime in 1989-90. Neither Ter-Bedrosian nor Kocharian have done anything new in this regard.

quote:Originally posted by THOTH:MJ obviously there is much to this (and of course the Times will be ferreting it out - LOL!). But not so sure you/they really want to go there if one is to look at the road to/against the war/invasion (and after) in terms of economic interests. There is nothing wrong with this...but please let us be honest and sell it for what it is. No war is a trivial thing. Thoth, I don't understand what is it that you are trying to say. Are you implying that I have interests or something else, like I am a warmonger? ... I really don't understand. If you thing I am supporting war, you are grossly mistaken. But frequently, it is misplaced as who is forcing war on whom.

Ther eis an interesting 70 page document/report, here: http://www.cij.org/pdf/CIJ_Saddam.pdf