Berj

quote:Originally posted by dragon: Ov kide inch em yes? Dragon.

Turkish envoy says Naxcivan should be linked to Azerbaijan proper Azerbaijani TV station ANS 13 June 2001 BAKU -- [Presenter] Relations between Ankara and Yerevan were also discussed during US Secretary of Defence Donald H. Rumsfeld's visit to Turkey last week. We should recall that official Ankara said that it would restore relations with Yerevan under two conditions: first, Armenia should take the so-called Armenian genocide off its political agenda; second, Armenian armed forces should withdraw from the occupied Azerbaijani territories. Turkish diplomats put forward another condition during the talks with the head of Pentagon, Donald H Rumsfeld: a corridor between Azerbaijan and Naxcivan [Azerbaijani exclave] should be opened and the security of this corridor ensured. The Turkish ambassador to Azerbaijan, Kadri Ecvet Tezcan, commented on Ankara's new condition: [Tezcan in Turkish, captioned as Turkish ambassador to Azerbaijan] As you know, Turkey is not a cochairman of the Minsk Group, but it is a member of this body. Turkey is closely involved in this [Azerbaijani-Armenian conflict] issue. We are closely involved in this issue, first of all because of Azerbaijan and Turkey's love for the Azerbaijani people, and second, because of international laws. Turkey cannot accept the occupation of the territories of one country by another one. You asked about the third condition. I cannot imagine Azerbaijan's Naxcivan separated from the main part of Azerbaijan. Also, everybody remembers that the so-called region of Megri was Azerbaijani land some time ago. This region was given to Armenia during Soviet times and consequently Naxcivan and Azerbaijan were separated. That is why these two parts should be linked if any kind of peace is established. This is our opinion. However, it is another question whether or not the Armenians will accept this. But it is certain that normal relations are not possible with Armenia as long as this country holds the territory of other countries under occupation.

Armenian minister slams Turkey's "absurd" preconditions for ties Mediamax 13 June 2001 Yerevan -- Armenian Foreign Minister Vardan Oskanyan on Wednesday attacked recent remarks by Turkish Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit on the future establishment of ties between the two countries was "unacceptable and absurd", Armenian news agency Mediamax reported. Oskanyan was commenting on Ecevit's statement at a meeting with US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld last week in which he set two conditions for diplomatic relations with Yerevan. According to the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet, these were that Armenia should "unreservedly, unconditionally and completely pull out of Nagornyy Artsax, which it is occupying", and to open a secure corridor between Nakhichevan and Azerbaijan. "Turkey's preconditions involving Armenia's relations with other countries is categorically unacceptable to us. The press might have distorted Ecevit's statement, as otherwise it is absurd and contradicts international norms," Oskanyan said.

Tornado, This is the topic I referred to in the "Iran" thread. Get ready. And give me some time to collect my thoughts.

quote:Originally posted by Tornado: I only went into the style of some people here, especially when Berj says, it is our business, and you are an outside, Well, whose business is it Tornado? Let the Iranian govt give to the local Armenians 200.000 USD equivalent sum for each child. Boost our population there. Change the demography in favour of Armenians. We're the smallest minority there. quote: When Berj congratuleted everyone because of Armenian unity against an odar (outsider) however that Odar was very close to Armenians. These are my exact words, Tornado: "We have displayed an amasing Armenian solidarity (some active, some passive) in our dealings with Iranyar lately. Now, shouldn't we show that we can handle 1 odar on the Forum, even if he is insulting some of us, even if his views on Armenian issues are unclear." Tornado, you can check my words at: "Well people, if you may an Odar speak"./Other/ General. Now shall I call this an attempt of slander, misinformation, an out of context "qoute" or what... quote: PS. Honorable mr. Berj: generally the Ur-Artaians are known as NOT being Indo-Europeans. I will reply to you on this matter in the appropriate topic "Urartu or just Ararat" in History section. quote: Paradoxiacally people who you disrespect, the panaryanists, are the only one who take account of possibility that the urartaians were Indo-europeans.who are researching whether they were or not,. Paradoxically some our former tribe-mates do not want to understand that the present world does not have a place for "Pan" ideologies, the last one of which was chrashed by collective efforts of the whole world in 1945 and any attempt to revive something similar (Pan-Turkism, Pan-Iranism, Pan-Arabism, Pan-Salvism, Pan-Islamism) will be rebuffed by any means, especially in oil rich regions. However, the present world does have a place for equal and mutually beneficial constructive dialogue. And I am an advocate of these realistic ways of peaceful coexistance (WOW, that sounded like a UN speach). Thank you gentlemen...OK and ladies

quote:Originally posted by Tornado: But the Iranians that I know don't care about the Iran that you people know, but about a big Aryan territory extending from Pamir till Anatolia, and they say no ethnios is superior to the others. Tornado, What do those Iranians say about the center of that big Aryan territory. Where is the capital of Aryans. What would be the official language of that territory if united. What script this "state" will use? quote: You mean first Indians then the Armenians made the first Indo-European state? The Indians which established the first state on the territory of the present India at Mohejodaro were not Indo-Europeans but Dravidians (they now live in southern parts of India and in Sri Lanka). The first Aryan tribes arrived a lot later and settled on the territory of present Rajhastan, Punjab, Kashimir etc. They still live there now. And as you can see most Kashimirians are lighter than other Indians. As far as I can see, most of the desendants of Aryans adopted Vedism and Sikhism. quote: well it depends on your definition, the oldest Indo-Europen history if you read it in the Avesta doesn't distinguish between Armenians, or Medians and Persians, but calls all of them Aryan, and this is probably as old as 12000 years ago. Avesta is not a historical-chronological source. I also believe that once all these nations lived together. Not only the ones that you mentioned but the Germans, the Slavs, the Greeks, the Iberian tribes (celts, galls etc.) as well. I think the historical writings about the Aryans (and about a big number of other civilizations) were distroyed during the fire at Aleksandria's Pharos library, when the Romans conquered Egypt. In case of Urartu we have chronological sources of Assirians, Hitties, Dareh the 1st's Behistunian wall cariving, the cuniforms of Urartians and a lot more. quote: That alphabet you are talking about is from 5th century. What's the difference Iran doesn't have an Iranian alphabet anyway. It uses Arabic letters. quote: Mr. Berj you have a megalomanic and unrealistic view of the world. I have megalomanic views???? OK, tell me what's realistic, the Aryan Empire? [ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: Berj ]

quote:Originally posted by naira: THOTH: the most bizzare and "scary" that I think in French sometimes. That's something new!

quote:Originally posted by ara baliozian: A TALE OF TWO CITIES ******************************* In us the Sultan and Stalin speak louder than Mashdots, Naregatsi or any other Armenian you care to mention. Off this topic, money and greed speak in the human being louder than anything else. And according to General McArthur, this planet can survive only if the problem of human greed will be given a theological, spiritual answer. By saying theological or spiritual I don't think he ment bishops. [ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: Berj ]

http://www.snark.am/ Snark News Agency HEADLINES OF 9 JUNE ARMENIA'S PRESIDENT WELCOMES VICTORY OF MOHAMMAD KHATAMI IN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS

http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg33066.html TWO CONDITIONS TO YEREVAN FROM ECEVIT Anadolu News Agency 07 June, 2001 CUMHURIYET (LEFT) U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld told Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit that the tense relations between Turkey and Armenia should be normalized for settlement of stability in Caucasus. After such a request, Ecevit said that there were two important conditions for setting up diplomatic relations between two neighboring countries: 1- Armenia should completely withdraw from Upper Artsax and 2- A safe corridor should be opened between Nakhichevan and Azerbaijan. AZG Daily #104, 06/07/2001 Geopolitics MEGHRI POPULATION AGAINST OPENING MEGHRI CORRIDOR The heads of town and village communities in the Armenian region of Meghri, located upon the borders with Iran, issued a joint statement on Tuesday, which says that the local population is against opening a corridor through Meghri region that would supposedly link Azerbaijan with its exclave Nakhichevan. The statement says that an option implying opening of such a corridor in exchange for Lachin corridor linking Karabagh with Armenia is being considered in the negotiation process of Karabagh regulation. The signatories say they are for the peaceful regulation of the conflict, based on mutual compromises, as well as for opening of the region communication routes, but warn against inadmissibility of opening Meghri corridor and deployment of peace-keeping forces in Meghri. The statement also says that opening of such a corridor will not help regulation of Karabagh conflict, but on the contrary, will threaten Armenia's security and sovereignty.

I think we should stop paying them the money and not the importance. After all it's not the Armenian Christianity that is bad. It has the same goal of spiritual nourishment of the human being as all other major religions. But the peronalities who represent it are corrupt. Church is a big business now. If the church money will be limited we'll see how many "saints" will remain in the church.

Tornado, All your questions are adressed to one issue and could be zipped in one single question of yours if you were strait. And that is: "Why Armenians chose to be independent if they they are so close to Persians" Let me give you the answer: "When the first Persian state came to historic arena, Armenians already had a long history of statehood. We have been the second Indo-European ethnos to establish a state (after the Hitties). We have a distinct culture, distinct from the Iranian as well. We have our ALPHABET, and Iran doesn't (care for accepting our's actually?) so on, so on..."

quote:Originally posted by Tornado: But a question, what would be your reaction, if tomarrow all linguists agree that the Armenian languages should be cathegorized in the Iranian subgroup of the Indo-European languages, and no more as an isolated non related language? Plaese tell frankly your reaction! What will be your recation if linguists find that Farsi is a sub-group of Armenian?

quote:Originally posted by Tornado: As I have understood, is that one of the main issues that lead to the anti-Iranian feelings here, was whether or not the Armenian language belongs to the Iranian branch of the Indo-european languages. So ... Tornado, You're so misinformed. Were are the anti-Iranian feelings here. Do you want to start a topic "who likes Iran and who does not" and see what will be the answers? Armenian and Iranian languages are branches of Indo-European group of languages. What else?

Tornado, How many times we have to post that an issue of member banning is discussed by all the moderators.

Hey, MJ I was in Aragast Cafe (former Paplavoc) some three days ago. Somebody played an amazing Jarett. People said it was Karo Hayrapetyan's son.

Tornado, I gave you one of the answers to why the Catholicos may be a disgrace to us. And the issue of Catholocoses stand on Jerusalem is the last one I care for. And I believe most Armenians too, when examining his general behaviour.

Tornado, The issue of Armenian clergy being good or bad is an inter-Armenian issue. And in my view both the present and especially the former (may his soul rest in peace) Catholocoses are to some extent responsible for allowing the spread of sects in Armenia.

quote:Originally posted by Tornado: Yazidism ORGANIZATION The Yazidis believe that they are the descendants of Adam only, while the rest of the world are descendants of Eve, hence inferior. It is impossible to convert to Yazidism, you must be born one. Tornado, Can you, please, give an explanation of the quote above.

Tornado, Here are some quotes from your postings in "religion repression" thread: Mr Berj That country that you hate so much, Iran is the one and only neigbour of Armenia which keeps his borders open to Armenia Berj: You really hate Iranians... First of all, Tornado, I don't hate Iran and Iranians. This is a pure product of your imagination. The Iranian culture and the Farsi language have always been and remain an object of my admiration. Besides that I can prove to you that Persians are the closest ethnic relation of Armenians in terms of language, music, anthropology etc. You have asked me why are Armenians prejudiced about moslems. Leaving aside other moslem countries I will give you the chronology of historic events that forms our approach towards Iran in retrospective terms, which can not be overlooked beacause the major part of the current political and economic problems we are dealing with come from the past. Here is the chronology: 448 - Yezidigerd Sasanian the king of Persia, issues an order to Armenia to convert to Zoroastrianism (Armenia was already largely Chirstian at that time) 451 - The Avarair battle near Tghmut river (Vardan Mamikonian vs. Moushkan Nyusalavourt). Armenians lose but the Persian army retreates. 482 - Uprising under the leadership of Vahan Mamikonian which brings to... 484 - The Nvarsak treaty (Armenia granted relative autonomy) 591 - Bysantine and Persia devide Armenia (the Persian king sends the Armenian cavallery to fight aganist the nomadic tribes at Persia's eastern border and Armenia is left without its major battleforce for long time). The same does the Emperor Morik of the Bysantine. He sends the Armenian cavallery which was based in the Bisantine part of Armenia to the western border of the Bysantine. 637 - 642 Arabs win Persians at Kadessia and Nehavend battles and establish their dominance over Persia for long time. Bysantine loses some minor battles to Arabs and retreats from Messopotamia and a part of Anatolia. The Arabic (and islamic) advance to the north is stopped (in relative terms) in Armenia. Pesia converts to Islam. Bagratouni Kingdom in Armenia (9th-11th centuries). Beggining of 15th century- Shah Ismail Sefevi (1502-1524) establishes the Sefevian dinasty in Iran. 1555 - Armenia is devided in result of a war between Sefevian Iran and Ottoman Turkey. 1605 - Shah Abbas displaces huge number of Armenians from Ararat valley and Nakhichevan to New Jougha near Esfahan. 1639 - New war between Persia and Turkey, new borders for the devesion of Armenia. 1722 - Uprising in Armenia lead by Davit Beg in Zangezour and Karabagh. Persians crash the uprising. 1724 - Ottoman Turks take Yerevan by siege. -------------------------------- Tornado, I know this is all history. And these events are very far from our today's life. And I agree that we should already give them only historical significance. I want to forget them. But how can I forget that Islam is not tolerant to us if in 1988 Azeries killed all the Armenian population of Sumgait. This event was the beginning of the Karabagh war. Besides all this, I know that presently Iran is one of Armenian's closest partners in large number of issues. I know that Iranian Azeries do not actively support Azerbaijan. And believe me that this partnership is mutually beneficial, because I know for sure that both governments do not use emotions when dealing with each other.

quote:Originally posted by gamavor: 5.Only in America......do banks leave both doors open and then chain the pens to the counters. The pens are chained to prevent them from rolling down the counters!

quote:Originally posted by naira: I didn't want to say this, but I can't. It's for you Berj! Tornado, if you want to be friends, as I suppose, help or stay away. Should a moderator go that far? I always said, that I like you... But now you are going to make me love you, honey! Naira, That sentence was a continuation of a thought elaborated in the paragraph ahead and was ment to approve mutually beneficial BUT EQUAL relations between Armenia and Iran. Now tell me, should a person interested in logical argumentations go this far: I enjoy rather concesus ... with a bit of "ketch-up" and "spicy-sault-n-peppered" sauce on it ... for "emotional" effect of the matter! What emotional effects? That's what we are trying to avoid here, especially in these kind of threads, to get at least some tiny emotionless results. Keep you adrenaline in control.

Hi Ali, Nice to see you back!

quote:Originally posted by Tornado: You see: You admitted that you don't like moslems, Tornado, Please, tell me where did I admit that I don't like moslems. Tornado, it's really hard to talk to you, you know. quote: And yes multi-ethnic society is allways preferable and of course there are countries who have no trouble with that. Not only USA , but look at India, the biggest democracy of the world with so many ethnic and religious groups. Also in Europe Spain and Italy and Belgium are recognized and institutionalized multiethnic and multilingual countries. Tornado, can't you see that you're comparing uncomparable items. India, Spain, Italy and Beligium. India has 1 BILLION population and is united around the idea of Hiduism with its numerous branches. Italy, Spain and Belgium are currently situated in themost secure part of the world. Actually Italy and Spain have had FASIST regims. The fact the that they had a nazies in power already speaks for itself. quote: And may I ask you why you can't take these from Turks or Iranians? Becuase both of them have displayed extreem nationalism, nazism etc. towards Armenians in the past and now you ask us to be tolerant. Are you kidding? quote: I can imagine that Armenians should be angry with Turks? But why against Iranians? I am not angry with Iranians, but do not try to impose anithing on us. Actually it is you who is making me angry towards them by saying how shall we treat minorities, and that we shall be tolerant to the Azeries. As a former historian I am angry towards the foolish policy of Iranian kings during the Sasanid dinasty, who were also teaching us how to treat national minorities, but in reality devided Armenian to a number of small parts and sent its cavallery to fight with Qushans in the east (I think you must know this Tornado), leaving Armenia unprotected. You know the results of this Tornado? I can tell you. Iran was conquered by Qushans, then Seljuks, then Arabs because of its policies agaist Armenia. By the way, the same happened to Bysantine. Tornado, if you want to be friends, as I suppose, help or stay away. quote: Why against the very small minorities groups who are still living in Armenia? Minorities in Armenia leave in a very tolerant society. Let me give you an example. When Ojalan was arrested, the Kurds of Armenia organised a huge demonstration. While passing by on that day I felt I'm not in Armenia. Police was only keeping them calm. Do we need this Kurdish-Turkish conflict on our territory. Let me guess.. No! But by the right of assembly etc.etc they were given a chance to voice their opinion. quote: .... one can have interesting exchange of views. I didn't badmouth you and I'm ready to discuss as soon as you bring up logical arguments. Take care

quote:Originally posted by Tornado: 1.Also i see that many Armenians are affraid that some day Iranian Azeri's and Iranian Persians would make an alliance with their shi'ite moslem coreligionist from the former soviet republic of Azerbaijan, against the Armenians. 2.But the first issue is why the azerbaijanis of Caucasus happened to be antagonistic against the Armenians, the question should begin here. and the Solution should be foud also here, without being beligrant and spread hostilities among more nations. 1. 6th-11th centuries Arabs (muslim), 11th-13th centuries Seljucs (muslim), 13th-15th centuries Mongols (non-muslim), 15th-19th centuries Ottoman Turkey and Safavid Iran simulataniuosly (both muslim, chose to fight right on the territory of Armenia) and in 1639 devided Armenia in two parts between eachother. The rest is the involvment of Russia. 2.Why Azeries are antagonistic? Because they want to take the rest of our land.