THOTH

How can you know/be so sure? I find it just absurd that anyone could claim to know with such certainty. Of course I don't believe in such rubbish - yeah - eternal life - just who are they trying to fool (well everyone I guess - yeah life sucks - certainly when pleasures of the flesh are denied etc - doesn't help...but hold out for hope of paradise after death - give me a break - what a sham...) - anyway - its just such denial of life that really peeves me about Christianity (and many religions in general - though Christianity & Islam are the worst)... Life is intimatly and inseperably concerned with the physical mainifestation of ones body here on earth. IMO any attempt to put some unprovable and very unlikely (not bearing or realting to any known reality) spiritual/astral or what have you existance - to put such before our physical and real life on earth is at best just a sham. Does this mean I am not spiritual? Totally not....I commune with nature - have great wonderment and am moved by the natural processes of the Earth - of the mystery and wonder of the stars and what might be out there and the beauty and the awe of what we can observe. Mostly though it is life here on earth - in all its forms and particualrly the closest to home - my family, my children that fills me with awe and wonderment...and this is plenty spiritual enough for me. Just because I have no need for - and can see no reason for believeing in unseen, unproven and IMO quite fanciful - with little bearing on reality - beliefs/supposed answers - that IMO fall short in nearly every possible way - does not make me any less a viable and worthwhile human then anyone else. And it is this latter assertion - which a great many "believers" seem to continually put forth - which really ticks me off (the ultimate of insults IMO)...and this certainty - in such things - unknowable - based on "faith" - I just find absurd....and I am not claiming to have any answers - and if faith and belief and such do it for (any and/or all of) you - etc - well wonderful - thats fine - I have no problem with this - and I truthfully cannot refute that you just may have had some revelation that I just have not experienced (OK - fine...)...but to put such foreward as an absolute - that applies to me as well - and that implies I am somehow a lesser human - will be denied benefit or will be punished for not adhering to such belief - well I certainly draw the line there and will shove it right back in your face...and to me this attitude of certainty in these matters - is just well - absurd..it seems so obvious to me - what can I say....(but who knows...only that I can't even begin to really imagine it to be true - as it seems contrary to reality - as I see it...what can I say...?)

Yes of course ArmenSarg - only you know all the answers - only you know how things are - how one must worship and what not - yeah - talk of being the same - fanatical believers - in whatever....all I'm saying is that there is not sufficient proof for belief in any gods - and those what are postulated are at best unbelievable - and are as well - in my mind undesireble. But you know better...yes of course...

I don't know Armat - but once I helped a friend beef up (and straighten [level] up) his ceiling joists...and it caused the plaster to seperate from all his downstairs walls! What a disaster (and it was a rented house that he suddenly became responsible for fixing up) - quite a nightmare...so may be more trouble then it is worth. It may also be worth it to pay a structural engineer to figure out what those joists can hold and what you can easily do to improve your situation...

Believe me - I wouldn't care if no one else did.

I find this statement to be incredibly naive. First of all do we not consider our culture (cultural values & such) to be JUdeao-Christian? And please just where did these Christian values come from? And if they are Jewish (even non-religeous) how could they accept all the Christain propoganda about Christ (unless they are specifically "Jews for Jesus"...and these guys are even worse then Sri Chinmoy followers in terms of cult fanatasicism etc) Second - you obviously have no clue concerning Jewish folks. Regardless of their level of Orthodoxy - thems fighting words! (to imply that they have "given in" to Christianity) Judeaism is nearly (but not quite) as kooky as Christianity in my book - but as practiced by the majority of Jews tend to be more tolerant and accepting of diverse (religeous) opinions - then that of the "average" Christian...the problem with both (all) relgions of course - are the fanatics...and I've argued and argues with certain Jewish friends/aquaintences who like to claim that (religeous) fanatasicm is primarily a Christian and Muslim thing...and of course - i cannot agree with this contention...even if, for the most part, I find greater tolerance in/with the (average) Jewish believer then with most Christians...

hm - well the Jews (of Isreal) must love Christianity don't you think?

Is this conclusion based on a poll/survey result or are you just speculating (this supposed cause & effect)? No - they are paid to kill others and prevent them from doing us harm...in theory Obviously there are issues of Western armies being manned by social underclass - etc - and such - (though what is new about this even under the draft etc?)...but I dispute that average soldier is necessarily stupid. Sure they are young - and often unschooled...but you might be suprised at the level of technical skills required for a great many military functions...etc Well - I don't think it is so simple as this. I'm not going to argue if it was the right or maral/immoral thing for US to invade Iraq - because I was very much against such an invasion - but I don't think it is so clear cut that it was/is immoral per se. Again - its more complicated then this... But I can agree with you certainly on the 2nd part - I don't think US soldiers are dying for US security per se... and I agree - its a tough sell... You've lost me completley here. OK - life is easy in the West...but I don't see what this has to do with gays etc - no matter (never mind)... Again the gay thing? - no idea really....and regardign oil interests...well yeah - but we do need oil...and what a joke on history that most of it is "owned" by Arabs and such - no? And you do think terrorists are bad guys do you not? I certainly do....

Title of thread - "Thoughts about religion and morality" I recommend the following reads: http://www.anatheist.com/Articles/morality_absolute.html (exerpts from the code of Hammurabi are interesting - don't you think?)...and some other things to consider - God violating several of the 10 commandments...and for all the Christian guys out there - isomethign to consider -f you lust after another women you have already commited adultry (Matt. 5:27-28) - lol http://www.anatheist.com/Articles/morality_christianity.html (above makes good point that bible & Christianity alone insufficient for all ethical questions) ..and of course from the morality_bible post (previous) - the discussion of the moral justifications for slavery from the bible....yeah...and some speak of relativism...

Will that get them into heaven you think?

Everything I am posting is entirely on topic. If you start deleating its very telling and confirms that you are censoring ideas different from what you believe - shame on you!

And yet more... http://christianmorality.com/revolution.html hm.. Romans 13 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. http://www.anatheist.com/Articles/god_contradictions.html (for the above the last two pieces - "the problem of evil" and the "Problem of unbelief" are relevant to the discussion IMO)...the whole argument about God being contradictory is a nice read as well - IMO... and from the same source as the above - (Bible & Morality) (and this concept of inherited guilt and such - fits in with my earlier claims about Christianity and man being considered eveil - etc) http://www.anatheist.com/Articles/morality_bible.html

and a must read (IMO) - http://christianmorality.com/evilnature.htm lol (good too...by the same woman as in the interview above..) http://www.christianmorality.com/heartsdli...0the%20Body.htm more from the same site as 1: http://christianmorality.com/humanrights.html "Today in America, millions of people are being abused, harassed and threatened by believers of Christianity with perverse curses that they will be eternally damned and tormented in a lake of fire, because of their life-style choices. The Cult of Christianity has a twisted version of so-called, morals and ethics, that evolved from an ancient religious sect, which proclaims everyone to be innately evil sinners and should bow down and do only the will of their vengeful, jealous, (imaginary) God, and, that everyone should accept the belief in redemptive morals through the immorally disgusting ritual of a blood sacrifice (Jesus)." "While preaching the supposed message of love and forgiveness, Christians shame the whole world by telling everyone they are full of sin and wickedness, but they, themselves, practice the awful hypocrisy of contentious rivalry, shamefully arguing amongst each other for the elitist position with God, and the fruit they produce is discord and division, and only serves to help fragment society." above quotes by G. James Stewart - Imorality of Christianity

Hm - well onnig (and most/many other Christians seem to think so) - for example - this post of his from the thread that this broke off from...(my bold) Hi Sasun, My claims are only truth not by my own concoction but by what is stated in God's Word. Not only is it stated in God's word but these things are evident in the world. Look at other religions, they either deny sin or they think they can repay sin with good works. The Word of God is clear about how sins can be paid for, in Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death," not good works. If one sins, one must die, not just physically but spiritually and since the soul is eternal, spiritual death is equated with everlasting punishment in hell, and that is literal. In actuallity, if one is trying to pay for sin with good works he is yet sinning again. See what the prophet Isaiah says, Is 64:6 "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;" Righteous deeds are works. And also, Paul says in Rom 3:20: "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin." and in Rom 11:6: "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." and in Galatians 2:16: "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified." and so on and so forth. There are many passages but I think I've posted enough for now.

I think that Turkey should (eventually) be in the EU - but not prematurely - and I think they still have a ways to go (and agree with the article that much is lip service and maybe temporary moves to help with their consideration). I would really hope that they are forced to recognize the Genocide as a price of admission - but I'm not holding my breath that this will really become the issue...

I totally disagree about the lack of self-sacrifice among humans. But I suspect that those claiming this have never been parents...or have never had to care for aging or sick parents or relatives..etc etc - in addition there are many countless instances of people helping others who are sufferning or are less fortunate throughout the world - sometimes at great cost to themselves. I have a friend (a doctor) who lost her husband (also a doctor) and who still suffers greatly because of a nasty strain of malaria (yes her husband died from it) - that they both got while working (voluntering) in Africa...and their are many many people like them in the world. I find this Christian concept that all men (and women particualrly) - are bad, evil, dirty, unclean and such to be disgusting and most sad - and to be essentially completly wrong. What a horrible idea - that all people are so horrible and only through the "grace of God" can they be saved...etc etc...

Yeah - now what is more offensive I ask - someone posting that you deserve eternal punishment (and claiming that you will get such - from their "just and loving" - but very demanding god) - etc etc - for not believing exactly as they do...or for someone mocking such certaintude and rejecting such and calling the person who believes and preaches such a "sucker"...yeah and who ends up getting edited and told to knock it off? Well I find the former to be very nasty and insulting thank you.

LOL - in fact its the opposite....oh and yeah - Christianity sucks...

Maral - I wanted to thank you for the Shish Taouk recepie...we had some Armenian relatives visit this wekend and I made Shish Taouk exactly according to your recepie - with the substitution of frech lime juice for lemon - turned out great! Everyone just loved it...(and everything else I made of course...perhaps I'll post a few recepies myself....)....anyway thanks!

To Sasun - Onnig says there are two types of religion one true and one false - I say his is false and say - so where does this leave you sucker! - come now - this is considered a figure of speech - and yes I thought it funny - considering he is making such nasty draconian statements - that he is right and all else who disageree are worng - again - which I ask is more insulting? You just don't get it though....all of you who are so convinced that you know all the answers - then expect us to accept this - when shoved down our throat - no - sorry - will not do.... Armen - well thats fine - if you feel you have some insight and it makes you more comfortable....I find solace in other things - like watching my kids grow up - cuddling with my wife - driving my cars (fast!), drinking fine wine, enjoying life - etc - and while its nice to ponder these eternal questions I am comfortable with the fact that I will never even beging to be able to answer a fraction of all the various (spectacular/puzzling/intriguing/perplexing etc) things I might wonder about....in the meantime there is plenty to learn and wonder about in our world, plenty of fine wine to sample, lots of good times to be had.....etc

I fail to see where I insulted anyone. Please go to my first post in this thread and folow foreward. I am only responding to the incresingly strident claims that I - as a non-believer (along with innocent newborns) - are condemned to eternal punishment.... Now what would everyone think if I started posting this type of crap - but from the Koran - and telling everyone here that they were condemned and need to convert and believe and practice just as I do etc etc (otherwise they will be justly blown up by suicide bombers or some such...) And you claim I am the one insulting others? Just because I hold a minority view and fight to hold that view in the face of those who make such draconian and sure of themselves claims - does not mean that I am the one in the wrong anf that I am the one who is insulting - you people have a complete lack of respect for those who do not believe as you do and think its OK to foster such on others and to supress any arguments to the contrary. Its no wonder that this forum fosters so many anti-semites and other narrow minded haters and such - these (truly insulting) views basically go unchallenged...yet I cannot challenge clear examples of religeous intolerance without succumbing to personal attacks and claims that it is I - and not those pushing thier know all the answers for everyone religious agenda - who are doing the insulting.

This is of course part of the paradox.... I had my kids baptised Calvinist BTW...sort of hedging my bets...I mean who is to know really....? (but if you claim you do I will call it b*llshit) And our fantasy football results for this upcomming year will be the test eh? Who is getting the right tips from that supreme being in the know...

Sasun I thought you weren't responding to my posts. I would also ask that you not edit them.

Again - this is just censorsip pure and simple.

Buy what right do you think you are entitled to this answer? And how is it that you assume that it is already written and that any knows or can know. I fail to understand why so many people think we should or even that we can know such things - or even think it is desirable to know such things. Instead of making up answers to sooth shallow psyches - don't you not think that the evolved being is one who accepts that perhaps he is not so special?

Threaten me all you want (empty) - most Christian of you - but I will not give in. And I believe my approach fully appropriate - and just because you don't agree - and can't really counter - you attempt to disparage my wife in some (meaningless) way. Sorry - I refrained from comment in this thread until onnig started making the ussual claims (and like I said - I don't initiate this nor do I tell anyone what to believe - only when they are so certain that they are right and that all is so draconian and that mankind is so evil and that their righteous god will make us suffer etc etc - I shove it back to them as they deserve)...