THOTH

I have no clue if there is any intelligent designer - thoguh i fully believe it does not require one - and I am not the first to claim such. I fundementally believe it is beyond either of us to make any claims to such - it is so far beyond what any of can no that it is not worth anythign mre then idle specualtion. And I don't consider you my friend not becuase of any disagreements - its that I cannot recall any actions on yoru part topwards me (in quite some time) that I woudl remotely construe as friendship. And Sasun - shut up your face.

Yeah Sev Marde...I can fully agree here as well...but unfourtunatly it can only go for so long...and once one realises they love isn't returned..well...then in some was nothing can be worse...

I never claimed that mutiple universes were not possible. I said i don't necissarily believe that they are reality as their is no proof beyond (qyestionable) abstract mathamatics - and i am fully aware that this is the belief if the day. And I deny that there is any paradox - that an Atheist muct believe in mutiple Universes - this is just absurd. And Domino -i just laugh when you accuse me of bringing absurd arguments into the picture. We are talking atheisim and Chistianity and such and you bring in Fadixism so give me a break. And from my perspective it is you who seem very determined to oppose anything i may post and such and you who make it personal (and who can't take a joke besides)... So no - I really don't consider you much of a friend anymore anyway. I mean what kind of friend are you who spares no oppurtunity to come at me as you do. You think I'm blind to this. And I was aware of Edis and Bubble theory and such (but only just today when i came accross him -not before- but I was aware when I posted)

Awesome...as usual...

the first and only thing that you have ever said that i would agree with...

I don't know - the URL for this site?

I imagine she would have to be blind and without sense of smell to go for you...

I haven't read this one - but it certainly looks worth checking out - (Interesting this guy is a Turk! LOL) http://www2.truman.edu/~edis/books/ghost/ Emphasizing the results of natural science, Edis presents a universe where complexity, intelligence, and even the sublime heights of religious experience emerge from what is ultimately material and random. Sympathetically criticizing Muslim and New Age perspectives, as well as contemporary Jewish and Christian arguments, he argues that a thoroughgoing naturalism leads to a much better explanation of our world. While making it clear that spiritual views have a genuine intellectual appeal, Edis systematically critiques such arguments, contrasting them with stronger naturalistic explanations. Science is central to this naturalistic picture; modern physics, evolutionary biology, and critical history, as well as contemporary psychology and brain sciences, all cast doubt on any spiritual reality And soem nice reviews - (I really must get and read this book! And pass it on to an evangleical cousin of mine! LOL) http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_con..._12_30_1899.asp http://homepage.ntlworld.com/anthony.campb...ews/r/edis.html http://www2.truman.edu/~edis/books/ghost/reviews/choice.html http://www2.truman.edu/~edis/books/ghost/reviews/rnost.html (an interesting aside: Edis has a strong background in Islam, and recalls being a boy in Turkish schools and learning to celebrate "the conquering march of Muslim armies." He then goes on to admit that, "It took me long to realize I was being taught to feel pride in pillage and enslavement." ) http://www.chowk.com/paint_picks_book_revi....cgi?pbookid=52 In his Conclusions “The God of Song and Story”, Edis writes, “Muslim apologists like to say that every one, deep down, knows there is a God: atheists fool themselves even about their own beliefs. I think otherwise. If my arguments add up to anything, there is, in all likelihood, no ghost in the universe. There is no divine reality which theologians are imperfectly trying to tell us about. We have many questions, some of which we may never answer, but no reason to invent a God.” http://www2.truman.edu/~edis/books/ghost/reviews/ (a whole list of reviews at the above) Edis was born in Turkey in 1967 to liberal parents. In his own words, “My (Edis’s) father is a hardcore Turkish secularist, with no patience for religion intruding on modern life. My mother, who grew up irreligious in California, seems slightly curious about religion at most, mainly as something other people do. They might have some vague beliefs in some sort of higher creative power, but even today, I’m not exactly sure,” (http://www2.truman.edu/-edis/writings/articles/critic.html). Edis received his first degree, B.S., from Bogazici University, Istanbul, Turkey, and his graduate degrees (M.A., Physics, and Ph.D., Physics) from The John Hopkins University, Baltimore. He is an Assistant Professor of Physics at Truman State University (Northeast Missouri State University), Kirksville, Missouri.

What is Atheisim? http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/...m?terms=linkbox Defining Atheisim http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/blathd_index.htm Is Atheism a religion? (no) http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/...el_religion.htm Can Atheisits be religious or spiritual (yes) http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/...l_religious.htm

Christianity and Violence http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/chri..._viol_index.htm

Hitler the devout Catholic http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/march97/holocaust.html

Taken from yet another website: Religious zealotry over the centuries has been directly responsible for countless deaths, imprisonments, needless suffering, torturings, and the oppression of people on grounds of sex, race, colour, sexuality or belief. A few obvious examples : The Crusades. The Inquisition. Witch trials in Europe and America. The Divine right of Kings (valid until killed by another Divinely-appointed King). Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, "heathen" religions and cultures. The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans ("They're devil-worshippers!"), the Romans demonizing Christians ("They're atheists and cannibals!"). Persecution of Heretics - e.g. Galileo for daring to suggest that the Earth orbits the Sun. Children dying because their parents refused them medical treatment on religious grounds; relying instead on faith-healers and prayer. Slavery, supposedly supported by scripture ("Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, just as you would obey Christ.", St.Paul, Ephesians 6:5) Holy wars - followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods. The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists. Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought. Persecution/punishment of blasphemers (Salman Rushdie still has a death sentence on him), and blasphemy laws in general. The requirement of theism in order to stand for public office or to testify in court. Serial killers believing they are doing the work of Satan (or sometimes Jesus). Often-fatal exorcisms by priests believing they are destroying the work of Satan. People suffering dreadful injury or death in the belief that their faith has made them invulnerable (e.g. people climbing into lion enclosures at zoos, with a Bible as protection). Whole societies divided by minor differences in belief or doctrine, often resulting in violence. Mass suicides of cult-members following a charismatic leader who believes the world is about to End (most recently, the Heaven's Gate and Solar Temple cults - there will be more as we approach the year 2000). The attempted genocide of followers of a particular faith (e.g. the Jewish Holocaust, "ethnic cleansing" in former Yugoslavia). Blood sacrifices to appease the Gods, or to ensure a good harvest. (The Aztecs made daily human sacrifices to ensure that the Sun would rise. Or did they? ) The practice of "female circumcision" (more accurately termed genital mutilation). The discouragement of rational, critical thought (resulting in young-earth creationists, for example). Uncontrolled population growth caused (or at least helped) by churches prohibiting birth-control and abortion. (You can also add : unwanted pregnancies, ill-fated forced marriages, and pregnant teenagers condemned to a life in mental institutions to avoid embarrassing their families.) The spread of sexually transmitted diseases (e.g. AIDS) due to churches prohibiting the use of condoms. Believers whipping, impaling, poisoning or crucifying themselves during religious festivals as a demonstration of their faith and piety. Suicide bombers taught to believe that martyrs go straight to Paradise. The indoctrination of children into the religion of their parents, giving them an arbitrary, life-long belief that is almost entirely dependent on their place of birth. Women treated as second-class citizens or even slaves (article : Islam's Shame). Pentecostal snake-handlers (Augusta Chronicle news article) Persecution of homosexuals (Genocide of gay and lesbian youth) Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children). Minor religions ("cults") stockpiling weapons to defend themselves from the Armies Of Satan (i.e. the police and the government).

A Christian wrote: "God did not create evil. Evil is simply the state where God is not present." If "God did not create evil" then what of the following? Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. Joshua 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things. Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit 1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. 2 Samuel 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house 1 Kings 9:9 ...therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil. 1 Kings 14:10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam 2 Kings 6:33 ...Behold, this evil is of the LORD; 2 Kings 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle. 2 Kings 22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place 2 Chronicles 34:24 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof... Nehemiah 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? Jeremiah 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people Jeremiah 11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them Jeremiah 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil Jeremiah 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: Jeremiah 44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah Jeremiah 45:5 ...behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: Jeremiah 49:37 ...I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them: Micah 1:12 .... evil came down from the LORD Micah 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil

ooops

Some how I knew that you would say that...LOL

Sev-Marde...did I say that? (dont' remember..LOL)....I think it may have been Sip...but OK - I'll take credit for it...of course that has now sucked me into this thread - something I know little/nothing about..LOL..but I guess i must say something...so...Sparkling Cider - man your English is good! And you live in Russia? How is it that your English is so good and you don't read and write Russian?

or perhaps...Thelma and Louise....!

Another god one: "Is God a criminal?" (God put on trial).. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/bil...iminal-god.html "Nuremberg is still too fresh in the memories of humanity for any such doubt to exist. The Old Testament records multiple incidents where God ordered the Jews to commit atrocities that constitute crimes under the Principles, as stated above. According to the Principles, God must be found to be guilty of crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity." And - "Biblical Atrocities" http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/don.../atrocity.shtml And - "A moral argument for Atheism" (more of Gods crimes are listed...[startiong about 1/4 way down the page]) http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ray...dley/moral.html "the theist God--as he supposedly reveals himself in the Jewish and Christian Bibles--either himself commits, commands others to commit, or condones, acts which violate every one of our five principles."

This is a pretty worthwhile read - Quotes from ex-Christians http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/quotes.html And the mother site - "Leaving Christianity" http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html#contents

Extra, Skittles, Angel...all very well said and i agree completely...

Guess not...perhaps it was Adam & Steve in the beginning after all eh? LOL

Anather truism from the mind of gevo...LOL Pleaaaaaseee...! http://www.cygnus-study.com/ (specifically for you go to the part under the Bible called biblical errors) http://www.foreverseeking.com/christ1.html from above: If God sent his son to save us from damnation, which we were doomed to be without his help, then I would agree that that would make God a hero to save us all. Unfortunately, it isn't. The situation proposed is dependent on the idea that God is all that is good and perfect, standing against all that is evil and immoral. That however, is not what the bible proposes. If God truly is "ALL", then he is the embodiment of ALL that is good, AND ALL that is evil. In fact, the bible states just that (Isaiah 45:5-8:: "5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it."). Once again, you honestly can not have it both ways. The God concept can not be ALL powerful and NOT have created and be the embodiment of evil. In such a case, the "hero" part of this, where God is offering us salvation from himself, is moot, for he created the entire situation to necessitate salvation (from himself) from the beginning. IF there were a separate entity to which had created this situation that God were saving us from, we would have a much different discussion, but that is not what we are presented with. That is why we must keep separate the concept of the unknowable "God" and the Christian view of who "God" is. Because of this, we have to look at a different issue all together. When I had many questions about the bible, and the Christian concept of God, I realized that just understanding the simplistic which was presented earlier was not enough. You have to step COMPLETELY back. You have to go to the very foundation of the concept of God, to the foundation of Christianity, and examine its inception, and its scripture, and it's history. I had to ask the fundamental question: Why is this belief the "truth," and the "only truth"? (see the site for a continuation)

Most excellent - I agree completely.... And there is really nothing more to say on this issue... So, I will keep believing in brushing my teeth (and laughing about not getting inot heaven).... And gevo and Axel and such can keep (falsely of course) believeing in the divinity of their book... And Domino can keep believeing in other universes where perhaps he has a girlfriend...(and BTW - I never said that this universe was the only one....I don't know the answer to that)....

Yes I agree on why the religious should think such...but I don't believe that there is such a thing as perfection - nor are there gods not made from the minds of humans (and maybe even Domino will agree wioth this one - eh?). And redemption - well thats a very personal matter - but the ability for such (and acting on such) is certainly a matter/an oppurtunity for personal growth.

Yeah I can see it now Extra...you and a gawking group of pre-teen boys! LOL