THOTH

This was from a folow on post I made in the discussion from 200: There is sufficient evidence available however to accept – with reasonable accuracy (as reasonable as any acceptance of someone’s eyewitness accounts etc.) that in fact Hitler did say “After all, who remembers now the extermination of the Armenians?” (or something in German which translates to such). First, all accounts of this speech (or possibly/likely two speeches) are taken from notes of those who were present. The speech(s) were apparently not scripted. Each version has core common elements with varying degrees of detail and emphasis. The “Lochner” version with the Armenian reference is the most detailed transcription. While it was not accepted as direct evidence at Nuremberg – it was very well known and was accepted by members of the prosecution team as accurate and legitimate. (This has been attested to in interviews). Additionally, the intermediary who delivered the speech to Lochner (as well as Lochner himself) was/were interviewed (at Nuremberg) under oath and they attested to the accuracy and source. The prosecution team accepted these facts. The reason(s) the document was not submitted as evidence during the trial are two fold. First – the discovery of two versions of notes of the speeche(s) by the US Army (directly from German officers) – each containing the incriminating passages the prosecutors were looking for – and these made the “Lochner” version unnecessary. The other versions contained sufficient proof of pre-meditated aggression against the Poles to make the prosecutions case. These versions had no issues of concern as to source (even if the “Lochner” version had been proven such to the satisfaction of the prosecution) thus were less likely to be potentially challenged on a technicality – and the Nuremberg prosecutors wanted to limit any challenges of evidence. So, while they fully accepted the veracity of the Lochner version, it became unnecessary, thus was not included as direct evidence. The second point regarding this document is that Lochner delivered a copy of the translation to the British Embassy in Berlin in 1939 and it exists in the British diplomatic Archives dated as such. To believe that either the Germans or the British somehow colluded (with Armenians or Armenian sympathizers) to include a non-existent reference regarding the extermination of the Armenians at this time is simply ludicrous and unbelievable. (where is the motivation and how did/would the Armenians be able to do such?) In fact, the “Lochner” document was the first and is still the most complete account of Hitler’s speech (s) to the Supreme Commanders and Commanding Generals, Obersalzberg, August 22, 1939. The Nuremberg prosecutors realized and accepted this.

LOL

Well gain Steve you shold just be silent when you know nothing..ie how are you to know what arguments I was able to bring and what my knowledge is concerning the Genocide...you don't... In any event - for the record and for folks info this is a post I made in an argument regarding the Hitler quote "After all, who remembers now the extermination of the Armenians?" that I posted back in 2000 in response to some Turks who made similar faulty contention: (So Ok - you be the judge) In his 1985 book “Hitler and the Armenian Genocide” Dr K.B. Bardakjian thoroughly establishes the credibility of Hitler’s statement “After all, who remembers now the extermination of the Armenians?” (note: we often see this quote stated in slightly different manner due to latitudes in the translation from the German – however, the gist of the quote is accurate in all versions) Additionally (and in doing so) Dr Bardakjain illustrates Hitler’s knowledge of the Armenian Genocide, through: 1) his trusted advisor Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter (stationed in Turkey during WWI), 2) as a result of the Tehlirian trial for the murder of Talat (which was held with much fanfare in Berlin in 1921 while Hitler was also there), and 3) through general knowledge of the plight of the Armenians in WWI which was well known by the Germans as a result of the hundreds of correspondences and publicity from Turkey to this regard during the First World War. The following is an excerpt from the “Contents of Speech to the Supreme Commanders and Commanding Generals, Obersalzberg, August 22, 1939” which I have constructed based on one of the translations of the text of the original document delivered to Louis Paul Lochner days after the Speech. Lochner, an American Journalist in Germany with well known ties to the German resistance (to the Nazis) was known to have passed on many accurate German military and policy documents to the Americans and British in the early part of the war. He was present, and was interviewed (under oath) concerning the validity of the document, at the Nuremberg trials after the war and he testified that his source, Hermann Maassz had passed onto him a number of documents during these period which were all accurate and useful. The originator of the text is (with some certainty) thought to be Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of the Abwehr, Hitler’s military intelligence, who was witnessed (by another German officer at the speech – who later testified to this) too be taking notes. These two, who were horrified by its contents, conspired to preserve the notes and pass a copy along to other members of the German resistance. While the original notes have been lost – various translations and subsequent versions are known to be in existence. (and their source with Adm Canaris has been independently verified by Winfried Baumgart, a well known researcher in Nazi documents) One of these translations (from which I quote) now resides in the American Archives. “Our strength consists of our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter – with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state.” “I have issued a command….that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head (SS) formations in readiness…with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?” “Poland will be depopulated and then settled by the Germans.” “The little states cannot scare me. Since Kemal’s death Turkey is being governed by cretins and semi-idiots.” “Be tough! Be without compassion! Act more quickly and more brutally than the others! The citizens of western Europe must shudder in horror.” “The new method of conducting war corresponds to the new draft of the frontiers….” And there you have it – what I consider to be the relevant passages. I shall follow with some further posts of Herr Hitler acknowledging his knowledge of the Armenian situation (and he and other Nazi’s expressing racists thoughts against Armenians) etc. (and these now follow) - Alferd Rosenberg, Chief ideologist of Nazism (the German Gokalp) stated: “Armenians are even worse than Jews” and called Jews and Armenians “the people of the wastes” Hitler is quoted as saying: “Considering that only a pure consciousness of racism can ensure the survival of our race, we were constrained to introduce racial legislation in such a clear way that such legislation could eliminate all alien racial infection, and this infection is not caused only by Jews. In enlightening the German people with regard to this racial legislation, we should conceive of it as having the task of protecting the German blood from contamination, not only of the Jewish but also of the Armenian blood” Seems strange that he would single out the Armenians – but like you said FJ – there is much in common between the two peoples and the Nazi’s were into this Eugenics thing where they measured characteristics (& twisted them around something fierce) Hitler also is quoted as saying: “One of the most famous examples is the downfall of that people who were once so proud, the Persians, who now lead a pitiful existence as Armenians” Apparently Hitler believed that Armenians were once the original Persians – and although they were clearly “Caucasian” they had fallen low by blending with Semitic peoples etc. – thus he saw Armenians as somehow “fallen” Caucasians. It is also interesting how the Nazis saw Pan-Turanism as a threat (and of course an inspiration). Remember – it was the Nazis who returned Talat’s body in 1943 – attempting to curry favor with the Turks (many of whom were very interested in sharing Hitler’s vision). At the same time, the Nazi’s wished to use Pan-Turanist aspirations of the Turks to draw of Russian divisions in defense of the Caucuses (which never materialized) they were fearful of the potential for Pan-Turanism. On 8 May 1942 Rosenburg, then minister of Axis occupied territories in the east reported on a series of discussions with Hitler: “The Fuehrer…asked my opinion about the Armenians. I stated that Armenia was the best bolt between Turkey and the Aserbeidschan and thus could stop a Pan-Turanism movement towards the East. Generally speaking the Armenian people themselves are stationary, a people of farmers who had considerable industrial skill.” Thus, the Nazi’s schemed both with the Turks (Ultimately unsuccessful due to considerable U.S. and British pressure) while fearing the potential competition of Pan-Turanism. Adolph Hitler interview with Richard Breiting (who was poisoned by the Gestapo in 1937) , editor of Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten (a German daily newspaper) 4 May 1931: (excerpts) “We must already be thinking of resettlement of millions of men from Germany and Europe. Migrations of people have always taken place” “Are we really going to remain a nation of have-nots forever?” “ We have the capacity to rouse and lead the masses against this situation.” “We intend to introduce a great resettlement policy;” In 1923 little Greece could resettle a million men. Think of the biblical deportations and the massacres of the Middle Ages and remember the extermination (some texts translate as eradication) of the Armenians (some texts translate as Armenia).”

What i miss (most?) about my childhood is my Grandparents and certain Aunts and Uncles - 2 of whom were most speical to me in my life - and my father, of course - all of whom are no longer alive...

Traffic - Feelin' Alright (written by: Dave Mason) From the album "Traffic" Seems I've got to have a change of scene 'Cause every night I have the strangest dreams Imprisoned by the way it could have been Left here on my own or so it seems I've got to leave before I start to scream But someone's locked the door and took the key. You feelin' alright? I'm not feelin' too good myself Well, you feelin' alright? I'm not feelin' too good myself. Well, say, you took me for one big ride And even now I sit and wonder why That when I think of you I start to cry I just can't waste my time, I must keep dry Gotta stop believin' in all your lies 'Cause there's too much to do before I die. You feelin' alright? I'm not feelin' too good myself Well, you feelin' alright? I'm not feelin' too good myself. Don't get too lost in all I say Though at the time I really felt that way But that was then, now it's today; I can't get off so I'm here to stay Till someone comes along and takes my place With a different name and, yes a different face. You feelin' alright? I'm not feelin' too good myself Well, you feelin' alright? I'm not feelin' too good myself.

Empty Pages - Steve Winwood Found someone who can comfort me, but there are always exceptions And she's good at appearing sane, but I just want you to know She's the one makes me feel so good when everything is against me Picks me up when I'm feeling down, so I've got something to show Staring at empty pages, centered 'round the same plot Staring at empty pages, flowing along in the ages Often lost and forgotten, the vagueness and the mud I've been thinking I'm working too hard, but I've got something to show

Sasun and others interested - I most highly recommend reading this: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/2948/gould.html And Sasun - near the end is a bit about Mamals that you will find interesting...other stuff is all good too...

This is Fadiverse your talking about remember....LOL He is attempting to negate the argument of probability against life....I don't think that it is needed because one cannot make the argument as we have not all the facts (of neither the proces nor the absolute size of the "pool" of molecular resources to discount the probability)...but of course - practically no matter the (scientific or religious) argument Domino will pop back to multiple universes...so amuse him I guess... Well in general this is clearly not true...its all about adaptability - and circumstance...what creatures with what attributes can make it under the 9sometimes variable) circumstances...and is this creature (or creatures) necessarilyt the "fittest' - well perhaps by definition...but nothing to say that other options may not have done the trick as well or better - or might in the future etc... Oh & BTW - I have had my own variant on Darwin - I say its survival of the fatest - not the fittest...again with the idea that its the ability to make it through bad times...in addition to being able to maximally exploit the resources at hand.. To my knowledge - no.. On a side note we seem to be completely discounting the role that viruses and bacteria play in our own (more complex cellular creatures) evolution (just as they seem to be causation for some current medical conditions far after the fact). These little creatures seem to have had a significant role in our own evolution and their gentics are intwined with ours....and again so much is yet unknown concerning the funtioning of great aspects of our DNA...

Domino - thanks...everyone should read this thread...in its entirety...at the very least they would understand some of where both you and I have been comming from on this issue..and for a great many years now.or so it certainly seems...

well well... I too have studied the trials a bit...and i find it funny that Armenai scholars like to reference the methodology of the Ottoman Trials of the Young Turks after the Genocide to the Nuremburg trials which based the very strict rules of evidence from the earlier Ottoman trials...so are you now as well questioning the validity of thse trials to - were they only for show? Could the Turksih denialists be correct as well when they calim that the genocide is one big Armenian propoganda ploy?

Yes - just like they did in te Middle Ages - BEORE the Age of Enlightenment! Yes - we could also just assume that the Earth is the center of the Universe..I mean who needs proof - we can base all of our knowledge on these assumptions...please... Soon we wil be back to never again questioning the edicts of the Catholic Church...I mean who needs science anyway?

sev-marde - Thinmk about this...my Father's side of the family - many but not all - but his mother/my Grandmother certainly ostriscized my mother because she was Armenian! To them she was Sev! And it was a sore point her whole life (my Grandmothers)..and even now - though to a lesser degree. So Armenians should think twice before they judge others due to their race or color! What is tragic is that such an experience has certainly not made my mother any less racist...again perhaps typical (of many Armenians)...sad really...

Sasun - that is a laugh...LOL...claiming that Nietzshe's mind was somehow limited...in comparison to yours perhaps - LOL...well I may not agree with all he proposes...(not sure I even understand all of it...nor have I read nearly all...)...but I think he has many valid points (reagding Christianity specifically)..ah well - back to this...no I think there are 63 pieces to self...! I mean WTF...inuit have many words for the white stuff we just call snow...but does that make it any different? Lets see - satisfaction in groups of 10 or more...satisfaction while fully clothed, satisfaction when partially in water, satisfaction when standing on one leg...damn...can't remember all of them..anyway...

Why are you ashamed of your pepper - Salt & Pepa? And seriously - if your Aunt was/is in love - how is it your place to approve or not..and its your loss most likely - that your close minded attitudes have lead to your no longer having a relationship with your Aunt....think about it. And maybe you should make the attempt to let her know that she is OK by you - no matter what choices she has made for herself -and that you are a bigger person then you may once have been..etc etc

yes perhaps - but that is the claim....thus the paradox - no. And yes the whole argument is very silly (not yours - actually very well done) - but this trying to convince folks that God is this or that etc...it seems to me to be such an utter waste of time..and ussually only ends up being very negative (in so many ways)..we - as human beings - would be much better off learning how to treat each other better - getting along - helping one another out - that sort of thing...then being concened with the supposed desires of some contradictory being - that in no way can be known by any of us - even if such a thing exsists - which seems to me - in any event - to be bloody unlikely. Now if there are lessons that one can take from the belief package that cause one to treat others better and behave nicely - etc - well i have no problem with tat...nor in anyone praying for me - as they are always won't to do...can't hurt no? (or could it? hmmm...)

essentially...but more to it then that...again...it goes back to sexual procreation and pleasure...the forbidden fruit! the later of course the gods were having party time with the randy humans...lol...and this is when Enlil ( the un-fun one)...decided to wipe them out (through flood)...and only through Enki's intervention was Noah able to save himself and his family...and all the eggs & sperm of the various animals and perhaps people as well...certainly makes more sense then the Biblical version - which still contains many hints/allusions to this (original) version...for what its worth...

Always the best - I must admit! Like you Bruin! .....

Are you refering to just this thread..or to politics/politicians etc in general...in some ways i can certainly agreewith both. However - as much as I too an am Anarchist in spirit (and certainly am always being accused of being such) - and am certainly a critic of government(s) -ours, others, just in general - i have also worked with about every level of governemnt that there is in this country - from cumunity association (was a board member for years), to local citizens actions groups (ditto several differerent ones...), to local government, (again been involved...have participated on citizens task forces shaping county policies etc - drafting policies, making recommendations etc etc), to State Governemnt (least involvement here) to national - legislature (have worked for different congressional commitees...been involved in legislation & other stuff) and executive branch...(including our beloved national beauracracies and agencies etc etc)..and judical (well...been on a jury...but have never been locked up or anything..amazingly so...LOL)...and OK here is my statement - all the mechanism are in place for it to work. Democracy is a wonderful thing! And its a whole lot more then just voting in elections. Yes - to me the 2 party system sucks - and that so much is controled by narrow interests and money..but do not think that you as an individual can't move things as well - it can be done - thewre are avenuues and mechanisms - and its not just the vote - but the threat of the vote that matters. Yes - our choices are indeed limited - and politicians are by and large - the lowest common denominator - but there are many ways to influence the process and to get thinsg done..and by and large things work fairly well - all things considered. And if one thinks there is graft and corruption in democratic societies - please look at the alternatives and you will see much worse. I think we are pretty spoiled here (in the US and perhaps even in Europe - thoguh to me legally the US has more going for it..) - to not understand that indeed the fact that legally our nations laws do put the individual first - we have rights and government (in theory) exists to serve us - and not the other way around - well this is a big thing. And yes - in my mind the mechanisms are there - if there is falure it is because of apathy and people failing to get motivated and act - and that is all - and I truly believe this.

Yeah VAVA - but yur tal,king too much the rel world here...not some abstract philosophy in which everyone is rich - or at least everyone that matters and who cares about the poor sods anyway...and whop cares if they shoot each other a bunch or get poisened..as long as business is good...yeah...

What are they being voted for ie what office? Chairman of the school board? Its clear that neither is ideal (though again each has its merits and detractions)...per se - but much is situational dependent. My guess is that A is Thomas Paine or Thomas Jefferson or someone similar...B...could be about anyone these days..but yes a characterchur...i would say Jimmy Carter..but he was in the navy...and couldnt be Clinton either...so don't know...

What ddi you do Sip - run your mouse up your leg? ..or are you talking about some student you have brought in for "counseling?"

I find this concept of original sin (which is such a crock) and the story of Adam & Eve in the Gareden of Eden to be most telling. It is clear that this (so-called) God wished for mankind to be ignorant (non-self aware) - and not only this - but that this God was prohibiting sexual pleasure (again knowledge of such) - and perhaps/likely even the abilty to reproduce independent of the God/gods etc - and that indeed - with the eating of the forbidden fruit (of life) - it is clear that Adam & Eve became aware of each other nakendness - and so we can figure out what they did next.... So in the story we see God lie (as he said that they would surely die if they ate the apple...so who can believe anythign he says now eh?)..and we see that it was the Serpent - indeed - who sides with humanity - and shows respect to humans - that are capable of such knowledge and of knowing pleasure and of deciding things for themselves - including to reproduce and have families...etc - yet the "God" was preventing such - instead wishing for obediant slaves who would totally be under his control...and have no sense of pleasure - or wonder - or independence etc etc (exactly why heaven would be such a boring place...) This is why - to me - the serpent (Enki/Prometheus/THOTH) is the superior diety (if there was such a choice truly available..) "Of every tree of the orchard eat you shall; but of the Tree of Knowing good and evil thou shall not eat of it; for on the day that thou eatest thereof thou shall surely die." "Who told thee that thou are naked? Has thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee not to eat?" "Behold, the Adam has become as one of us, to know good and evil. And now might he not put forth his hand and partake also of the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever?" (notice that "God" is speaking to his fellows here - eh?) ..and to live forever? How is that? genetically of course....with future generations of offspring...and remember in the bible the term to "know" almost always refers to sex...anyway...

Couldn't help myself here... Exerpt from Frank Zappa - The Adventures Of Greggery Peccary (from Studio Tan album)... Greggery: WHO IS MAKING THOSE NEW BROWN CLOUDS? WHO IS MAKING THOSE CLOUDS THESE DAYS? WHO IS MAKING THOSE NEW BROWN CLOUDS? BETTER ASK A PHILOSTOPHER 'N SEE WHAT HE SAYS! Narrator: GREGGERY stops at a gas station and makes a mysterious phone call . . . Greggery: IS THIS THE OLD LOFT WITH THE PAINT PEELIN' OFF IT BY THE CHINESE POLICE WHERE THE DOGS ROLL BY? IS THIS WHERE THEY KEEP THE PHILOSTOPHERS NOW, WITH THE RUGS & THE DUST, WHERE THE BOOKS GO TO DIE? HOW MANY YEZ GOT? SAY YEZ GOT QUITE A FEW, JUST SITTIN' AROUND THERE WITH NOTHIN' TO DO? WELL I JUST CALLED YEZ UP 'CAUSE I WANTED TO SEE A PHILOSTOPHER BE OF ASSISTANCE TO ME! Narrator: GREGGERY receives information that 'The Greatest Living PHILOSTOPHER Known to Mankind' is currently in possession of the very information in question, and, furthermore, this information could be HIS, if only GREGGERY would attend a 'SPECIAL THERAPEUTIC GROUP ASSEMBLY' (Classes now forming), and available at a special low low introductory fee . . . and now, here he is, 'The Greatest Living PHILOSTOPHER Known to Mankind', QUENTIN ROBERT DeNAMELAND! Take it away! Quentin: Folks, as you can see for yourself, the way this clock over here is behaving, TIME IS OF AFFLICTION! Now this might be cause for alarm among a portion of you, as, from a certain experience, I TEND TO PROCLAIM: 'THE EONS ARE CLOSING'! Narrator: Make your checks payable to 'QUENTIN ROBERT DeNAMELAND, Greatest Living Philostopher Known to Mankind'! Greggery: WHO IS MAKING THOSE NEW BROWN CLOUDS? WHO IS MAKING THOSE CLOUDS THESE DAYS? WHO IS MAKING THOSE NEW BROWN CLOUDS? IF YOU ASK A PHILOSTOPHER, HE'LL SEE THAT YOU PAYS! etc

Your better then Tom Cruise Azat......your Armenian!!

I have saved Armenia from potential destruction...(and you'll all just have to trust me on this)...really... Otherwise like Maral said - 2 beautiful boys! Life over death....always...