ThornyRose

quote:Originally posted by wh00t: You probably don't know this, but I guess it can't hurt to ask... do you know how easy or difficult it is to obtain Egoyan films where you live? Has it become more difficult after ARARAT emerged? Has there been any boycott (state-sponsored or otherwise) of his films? Just wondering. I was reading an Azeri news report that Cher (Armenian, as you likely know) was banned in Azerbaijan. Then another report came in that said not only was she not banned, but her material was constantly being played on the radiowaves. No, I don't know at all...

Probably, as are Turkish families (not the case with me, however)...

quote:Originally posted by wh00t: By the way, how do you intend to see Ararat? There's no way it will show on Turkish movie screens, at least not for a long while. Ah, you never know... (Neither do I.) However, I got to watch Yol a lot sooner than most Turks did - because I was abroad at the time and my parents were curious. (Unfortunately, I was perhaps a bit too young to appreciate it - for whatever reason.) So, who knows... Then again, I know people abroad - I could have it mailed to me. Actually, I'm not worrying too much about Ararat right now... It is Karakoyunlu and Co. that are having folks breathe down on their necks... But then, this much publicity will probably protect them... Who knows. And what luck that they have people from the highest echelons behind them - Karakoyunlu himself! Wheeeeeeew! quote:Originally posted by wh00t: I guess it depends on interpretation. My grandfather told me that "they say" it's about Armenians, but who knows... I suppose... With the reference to soldiers away from their families and all, it is most likely least about interpretation and has more to do with adaption...

Except for the skirt, very few of those items are enforced - and not even that in some [very few] offices. De facto everything, as usual - neither one nor the other. It also depends on your boss. If he/she is MHP, you better put on the skirt. If other, well, you might be lucky. Not so with my elder cousin's office... Skirts? Pah... I haven't worn one since I threw out my high school uniform... Uniforms are dumb, too, if you ask me, especially in a private school, where you do not have the "dignity of the low-income" to watch out for... Rules - rules above all else! Skirts are more "enticing" - that's what they want.

quote:Originally posted by wh00t: So the song is referring to fallen Turks and not Armenians? As far as I know, yes, but a lot of these are adaptations, both ways, from neighboring versions and all... For example, "Sarı Gelin" is one which is shared by both Turks and Armenians (don't know what you call it - and I don't have a working sound card to go out and [have a worthy] inspect[ion]), but they tell about two different stories... Or so I've heard.

quote:Originally posted by wh00t: Oh and by the way my grandparents here went out and rented "Salkim Hanimin Taneleri" after reading about it in Hurriyet.. they didn't like it, "too dirty". The rape scene? I'll agree... I didn't LIKE it per se, myself, but this film is a breakthrough for us... I don't even know if I am going to appreciate the movie ARARAT, but take a look at what I've done here: http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/170347 I suspect it is going to be hot in the upcoming months...

quote:Originally posted by wh00t: Thank you for taking the time to write all this. Lots of interesting information on a (needlessly complicated??) educational system. What did your cousin do after the third test? I assume he rejected electrical engineering and theology both times, right? Also, my dad says in his time he did indeed take a "general test", however he had gone to a "technical high school" and therefore a "technical" field was chosen for him. I'm afraid I don't have any more specific details, unless I asked him again.. if you had any questions I'll be happy to send an inquiry. My cousin finished electrical (and electronical) engineering, became an assistant, then left academia because he had a project in his mind and was afraid of "losing" it to his supervisors (it was the subject of his thesis, but, because he didn't want them to steal his ideas, he was hazy in what he info he provided)... He now owns a business with his buddy and makes good money... quote:Originally posted by wh00t: Thorny, Havada bulut yok bu ne dumandir Mahlede ölen yok bu ne figandir Su yemen elleri ne de yamandir Ano yemendir gülü cemendir Giden gelmiyor acep nedendir Burasi Mus‘tur yolu yokustur Giden gelmiyor acep ne istir Kislanin önünde asker sesi var Bakin cantasinda acep nesi var Bir cift kundurayla bir de fesi var Ano yemendir gülü cemendir Giden gelmiyor acep nedendir Burasi Mus‘tur yolu yokustur Giden gelmiyor acep ne istir... I know it. Everyone in Turkey knows it (though I'm not sure it is sung exactly like this - I don't have good memory with lyrics). quote:Originally posted by MosJan: wh00tJan - pleas do not!!! use turkish in this forum. Thank you... MOvses Dude, why do you have to be hysterical about everything? quote:Originally posted by Twilight Bark: I think it is a lamentation on the fallen Turkish soldiers in distant corners of the Empire, Yemen to be specific. It is tangentially relevant to the Genocide in that such military (as well as civilian Muslim and possibly Christian as well) casualties during WW1 are lumped into a big number by the apologists and utilized in saying "Well, 2.5 million Ottoman subjects died too", implying that Armenians somehow bore responsibility for those deaths. By the way, I do feel for the poor fallen soldiers sent to battle as cannon fodder, courtesy of the Ittihadist rulers of the time, whose "core competence" was the slaughter of civilians. Yes... Those stupid wars (Ittihadists' and the sultans' before them) left many a family without its men...

quote:Originally posted by Boghos: I was reading about the Center for Research and Documentation of Armenian architecture and there was a mention of Armenian churches in Iceland. I have been to Iceland but it never ocurred to me looking up an Armenian church (unlike in most other countries). in any case I started to investigate the subject and so far did not come up with any Armenian church (non-functioning, I would suspect) in Iceland. But an interesting mention of Armenian religious people in early Iceland. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/63h/63h039.html Very interesting, Boghosinho!

No, the violin's ancestor DID exist in Anatolia (but more to the whereabouts of Mesopotamia, I think)... I heard this from the lecturer of the course, "History of Music" or something that I took last year... Great guy, by the way. He followed archaeologists around and found things delightful for him. One funny story of his included a cuneiform tablet somewhere. They had deciphered/read the original message at the top (addressing some governor, etc.), but they hadn't been able to figure out what the patterns and marks at the bottom of the tablet were. A few months later, this lecturer gets called back by his archaeologist friend and is told that the "patterns" were "scribbles" which the secretary had written, for the messenger to pass on to his mother who was also in the town of destination: "And while you're over there, tell my mother, 'Mom, I'll be home by the next blah blah blah, I want my favourite dish of blah blah blah, too, love and kisses, etc.' " LOL... Something like that. Not everyone was able to read, so nobody would bother and notice the favour the messenger was doing for his secretary friend. LOL...

quote:Originally posted by wh00t: Hmm, I seem to remember you saying that you were studying engineering.. or maybe it's the term "nutty" you're objecting to. Nah, I don’t dispute that, either. quote No, your field of study is not chosen for you. You make your choices, but you also have to be able to measure up. quote Certainly. In the older days, “barriers” were fixed. You took your exam, then the scores were announced, and you would go to see what you could attend, following what schools had posted on their notice boards. Even before that, you took each school’s exams separately. This was troublesome, as there would be two exams the same date, sometimes in different cities according to universities. Our current system has eliminated all these problems. (It has also prevented specific political factions [fundamentalists, Grey Wolves, communists, etc.] from grouping in certain schools – there is no end to what means those creeps [professors sympathizing with those] will resort to and abuse their powers – choosing students for their political inclinations rather than their aptitudes.) Additionally, you are able to code in 24 schools – 18 4-year programmes and 6 two-year – on a sheet you bring with you to the place where you take your test, and you hand that in with the answer sheet at the end of the exam. Your choices are entirely up to you. You can pick different departments from the same school or the same field of study from different schools (I did the former – the latter is for idealists What a sadist. However, if your cousin had registered into chemical engineering AND taken the test again, he would have been in a very disadvantageous situation, because the coefficient with which our cumulative high school grades are multiplied with goes from a “virgin’s” 0.6 down to 0.4 – or maybe even down to 0.25 (not sure) – that’s just another rule (penalty) – and not having the time to concentrate and prepare with school on the side. This way, he is on the safe side (but putting up with the same torture yet another year – taking those courses again – toppling mountains of books of multiple-choice tests – yuck). Some of this stuff has been changed the year after we had our turn. I think now they wait for the results and THEN code their choices according to the results, guesstimating what they can measure up for – not that such ever came as a surprise. Actually, I like that idea. Also, we used to take two exams – one eliminated about half those who took the test – the other placed those who could get in somewheres. Now, it is only one (and thus too very risky – we of our “generation” would faint and go bananas on the first and be calmer with the second – “This is no big deal after all!” etc.). Anyway, that shit is the past for me. No need to bother knowing what they do. Oh no... I have a brother who will be due for such in about three years and a half. Who is going to explain the kid’s situation (year-long stress from following the house-school-courses-home triangle almost everyday) for my parents and give them advice on how to handle it? But then, they probably have some experience from me.

quote:Originally posted by wh00t: That's because they we want to see what that nutty engineer will say next! Speaking of engineering, my cousin in Istanbul recently "won" chemical engineering but is going to "take the test" again next year because he wants to do electrical engineering. Care to explain how the educational system works? (Who is the nutty engineer?) The way you are able to get into a specific department in a specific university is much like the demand-supply stuff... The higher the demand for a specific university, the greater the "barrier," as quota are fixed - they take in the kids that score the highest among those that apply through those to-be-read-optically forms. Your score has to exceed the value for that barrier. Most of your "score" consists of what you do on the "university entrance exam"... Your high school grades have very little effect (and they also grade your high school success according to all the members in your class)... So, it is a bit complicated and distasteful to say the least. The first time I had asked our counselor how these things worked, she gave me this booklet and I was ed by the formulae in there... Of course, if it had been now, I could have interpreted them - all pretty much statistical calculations, I would suppose, standard deviations and all! Your cousin has to take the exam again because electrical engineering in his (her?)school (or any school, really) is more on demand than chemical engineering and hence the score he has to get is higher. I think he could have considered transferring at the end of the first year of chemical engineering if his grade would be high enough, but that is risky - it might not happen from the electrical engineering department's end - that is the only place where they have say, and, if this is a public school we are talking about, they have little interest in their students' success - really. If he gets a score high enough this time, there is no way that department can object. It is that dry and simple and computerized. He just has to do it, but I'm always skeptical about people who say they'll do better the second time, especially if your cousin is going to take the courses at his university this year. Maybe if he were just preparing, yeah...

LOL! Who's Online says there are four visitors, all, minus myself who is obviously looking at who is online, are reading this thread! LOL! What will you guys do, bury your heads in the sand side by side, too? LOL...

quote:Originally posted by hagarag: Thorny Rose, I read your posts. So the Turkish government wants to bury the sins against the Jews also. Is the whole cloth of Turkish society based on lies? It is no wonder Turkey finds itself in so much trouble economically and diplomatically. Phah... And nobody has thanked me for taking the time to translate that stuff...

I agree, Khodja... I am wondering what the days ahead hold for Karakoyunlu, Mahçupyan, etc... Have you read the last stuff I've posted here: /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...c&f=10&t=000231 ?

More: MHP’s Çakar says he is going to “turn TRT inside-out” (didik didik etmek = search detail by detail _Thorny) Ahmet Çakar, Parliamentary Administrative Chairman who has started all the debates about the film “Salkım Hanım’ın Taneleri” which was adapted into a scenario from the book by Yılmaz Karakoyunlu carrying the same name, said, “I have done my job. From this hour on, Yılmaz Karakoyunlu had better protect himself from the Turkish state.” Çakar said that he was going to file a search warrant and “turn TRT inside out.” Çakar, in a briefing to journalists, said, “A scene in the film depicts a Turkish ***** saying to his bride, ‘If my son can’t impregnate you, then I will.’ How can this be? I watched the film second by second. It made my skin crawl. This is treason.” Çakar said to the reporters, “Elhamdulillah I am Turkish and Muslim. There is no question about my heritage, either. I’ve done my job. Now it is up to the state. While the government deals with the economic crisis, I deal with these.” Also, there is an apology by Hürriyet for the mistake regarding the age of the ***** (rather, the question of, was it 1910 or 1940+?)...

Making the Jew an Armenian is a part of the genocide plan. The researcher Rifat Bali says that the Armenianizing of the Jewish characters in the movie is a part of the plan to place the notion that the events during the deportations of 1915 were genocide in the minds of the public. “The real question to be asked is, ‘Why has the character change taken place?’ Ahmet Çakar’s determination that this gives the feel of the ‘Armenian massacres’ is correct to a point. The objective was to place the image of the ‘victimized Armenian’ in the heads of the Turkish public, anyhow. In my opinion, this change is the part of a long-term plan to have the Turkish public reach the conclusion that the massacres of 1915 constituted genocide. This means that the ideal is to create the feeling that ‘Armenians first suffered massacres, then were subjected to this tax and their conditions became deplorable, and are today facing the many problems with the minority foundations.’ Indeed, they have been subjected to massacres of 1915 and it is the right of the Armenian community which faces the problems stemming from the injustices with the foundations to bring the issue to the eyes of the Turkish public, but it was not right to distort historical facts by projecting the tax as targeting Armenians only. When you do so, unfortunately, you get such nationalistic reactions.” {{I fully disagree. The issue in question centers on the rape scene and not whether it was just Armenians or not.}} {{I have to admit... I wasn’t sure what Rifat Bali meant with “kıyım”... Usually, it is used as the equivalent of massacre, with “soykırım” meaning “genocide”... He hasn’t used the word “katliam,” also used for massacre, but if Ali can clarify that and say that he has meant “genocide” (for every instance I have used the word “genocide” in my translation, Bali has used “jenosit” in Turkish), please substitute one with the other (massacre with genocide).}}

This is from Hürriyet’s December 1st paper. It is an interview with Etyen Mahçupyan, the guy who wrote the scenario, by Sefa Kaplan. What do you say about the ongoing debates? There was some arguing during the showing of the film, too. However, the way it is brought back into the spotlight two months after its broadcast on TRT brings to mind that this is not about indignation or annoyance but a calculated move and has little to do with the film itself. I know that MHP has problems with TRT. They are using this film as a means with which to smear mud on Yücel Erten and Yılmaz Karakoyunlu. Leon has become Levon The differences between the novel and the movie had been subjected to scrutiny before. While it is the Jews who were the victims of the Varlık Vergisi in the novel, in the film, it is the Armenians who are projected as such. Why is this so? One of the characters in the novel is Jewish. The rest consists of Armenians, Greeks, and Kurds. In our scenario, the Levon was Leon and he was Jewish. I think we went over the scenario at least 12 or 13 times, and each time he was Leon and he was Jewish. And then what happened to turn the Jewish Leon into the Armenian Levon? In the film, there are scenes taking place in the synagogue and the Jewish cemetery. The Jewish community did not permit these. Therefore, we had to make the main characters Armenian. But it is said that it is not just the names but also the approach that has changed. In the film, the Armenians are the ones presented as the victims of Varlık Vergisi while there is also the theory that it was mainly the Jews who were victimized. Why should the greatest victims be the Jews? Is this measured in terms of money or in terms of people? Had the Jewish community allowed for shooting inside the synagogue, there wouldn’t have been a need for this change and there wouldn’t have been any Armenian characters. {{Uh-oh... Something is wrong here...}} What do you have to say about the claims that your being Armenian has much to do with this change? If you were Armenian, would you change a Jewish character in the novel and make him Armenian? I objected to the director and said, “Someone will want to give us trouble with this.” Today’s debates are on a different level from where they were two years ago. What is the difference? Two years ago, it was rather a debate between artists and academicians. Academicians had been claiming that it was historically incorrect. I suppose you are talking about your debate with Ayhan Aktar... Yes. A work of art need not be corresponding to the truth, one-on-one. A thing called the Varlık Vergisi has existed and there are only three books written on it. The public has never dealt with it and now a film addresses it for the first time. However, the discussions then were incomparably level-headed then than they are now, of course. What do you say about the way the situation focuses on a ***** of the Hamidiye troops? {{This is about the rape scene – the one with young Nora.}} That is an indispensable part of the book and not of the scenario. It had been there since the book was first published. It seems to have dawned on some people just recently. I think this is a political manipulation. The event is dated 1910 But Karakoyunlu’s saying, “This was not a Turkish ***** but one who was a member of the Hamidiye troops,” does seem akin to saying, “He was Kurdish, and therefore one can expect anything from him,” no? I don’t know why Yılmaz Bey has said what he said. It is not important whether the perpetrator is Turkish, Kurdish, Spanish, or Greek, just that in this geography, these things can happen to cultures such as ours. Therefore, saying, “He wasn’t Turkish but Kurdish,” is terribly shameful and ideologically unethical. Murat Bardakçı says that there is a material mistake and that a ***** who was member of the Hamidiye troops would be 90 years old in 1940. Unfortunately, we can’t call Bardakçı’s mistake a material mistake, because it is a worse one. If he had read the book or watched the film, he would have realized that this happened to Nora when she was 15-20 years of age. This means that this happened in the 1910’s. His assuming that Karakoyunlu’s not being able to make a calculation he is able to is ridiculous. Another criticism directed at the film was that the Turkish characters in the movie were very negative. When people talk about the “positive Turkish type,” they mean themselves, and they see people different from them as “negative.” I think that good Turks are those like Bekir and Nimet in the film, not those like Çakar {{the MHP guy}}. {{I’ll agree here, too. Bekir and the wife of Durmuş [or was it Dursun?], Nimet, were very nice and very Turkish people.}} The researcher Rifat Bali, too, has written a 37-page article on the Varlık Vergisi. What do you say to the critique there? I didn’t read the article, but I can say this: Rifat Bali behaves like a criticizing intellectual in his look at the Jewish community. But he looks like a full Jew outside the Jewish community.

More on Salkım Hanım'ın Taneleri (for those of you that can read and understand Turkish)... http://arama.hurriyetim.com.tr/devam.asp?id=39603 http://arama.hurriyetim.com.tr/devam.asp?id=39718 There's also something in Hürriyet's paper yesterday which I read this morning... I think I'll translate it, for I haven't been able to find it on-line...

Irrelevant with regard to Turks of Turkey, but this does get a racist tinge to it - involves both Jews and "Turco-Finnish Mongoloids" (hoh boy!): http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread...geid=1007279955

quote:Originally posted by wh00t: Ain't that the truth! Still picking a few of'em tho'nes off yoh butt? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut: Guys there are better women at www.models.am You've got to be kidding... http://www.models.am/html/models/modelsdir.htm She's better than Lika, Anaida, Mariana (gawd!), Arpine, and Ani put together (face-wise, at least)!

quote:Originally posted by Azat: I just have one thing to say. A mouthful is more than enough. That's just you, Azat.

quote:Originally posted by Boghos: Happy Birthday ! But we'll keep calling you Ms. Rose. What is this thorny-by-iself nonsense ? Boghosinho, queridinho, I identify more with being thorny than I do with being rosy... ehehe

Hm... Perhaps you can just put on some fur to pass off as one... But then, it is bear furs that are ideal for sitting in front of the fireplace. What's the need? I was actually expecting a surprise birthday cake a coupla weeks back, with you popping out of it... Grey Cake... LOLOLOL...

Boghosinho, I fail to get your meaning...