ThornyRose

That IS too much. I pay, like, what? Half of that? And Turkey is more expensive... Actually, I think Turkey overdoes this state-aid business... Even in private universities, the student pays only 60% of the fee... The rest is allocated to the university by the state, as an enticement or what have you, for private universities to be established... And this means that these schools can raise the fees to the limit students are ready for - not necessarily what they are worth...

quote:Originally posted by Boghos: Not sarcastic, no. It just sounded more respectful. You are getting older ) . Bleah. Only 22.

quote:Originally posted by Boghos: It is most interesting how a simple mention of an "Armenian slut" put in proper context by Ms. Rose (thank you), gets way out of hand. Not that open forae are not created for that purpose, they are. But sometimes, as Freud said "a cigar is just a cigar". And we should keep it that way. Hello, Boghosinho! Were you being sarcastic, Boghosinho? I've never been called "Ms. Rose" by you. Either way, happy to see you around more often!

MJ, undue generalizations, me? I'm not talking about subjective stuff - I'm talking about short-cuts to better put things in perspective. And I'm talking about young Turks who are Americans with corn-flakes, Caterpillar boots, music, whatever, minus any compassion for the land they live on and its people - or any desire to learn about themselves first before they start dreaming about visiting New York, Disney Land, whatever. As for "being American," well, being anything can have the same said about itself, that it is more than belonging to a country, it is a mentality, a life-style, what have you...

quote:Originally posted by wh00t: Looks like we have a group consensus, "horray for Armenian sluts". No, just life in Istanbul was different... What are the settings for the above, anyway?

If the ladies who danced in taverns (mostly in Istanbul, I think) and the like are anything to go by, yes, most such were Greek and Armenian girls... Even the very act of going on stage was forbidden for Muslim women - at least in the Ottoman days. Even until my aunt's youth (she's 63 now, I think - my mommy just made it to 50), belly dancers who came to dance at weddings were males wearing women's outfits... (Yuck!) They almost died out after Turkish women (who had 'most always had their fun in private) took over, until, when recently, it has sprung up again, more as some sort of spectacle... (Totally amusing for me. But I always prefer watching Tanyeli, Asena, etc., making all those nice curly moves than some guy with a hairy chest but long hair and some make-up around the eyes.) Turkish belly-dancing is said to be more sensual/sexual, whereas what you see in the Arab countries is supposed to be more feminine and innocent-like. (Haven't observed myself - just read it in a mag somewhere - probably in one article about the guy who wrote a book about the subject.) Perhaps we owe our freedom-loving (without having to go all the way to the sluttiness) Greek and Armenian ladies for having kept it alive - or keeping it at a certain standard.

quote:Originally posted by Harut: TB and Arpa, you both seem to be very well educated and informed in linguistic issues. can you please try to explain what the city name "Karmuj" might mean? this has been discussed earlier but we couldn't come to a conclusion. thank you As in here? /cgi-bin/forum/ultim...ic&f=1&t=000384

quote:Originally posted by arpa: The above is yet another historical revisionism in action. I have asked this question numerous times both in private and public. You seem to know much about Ottoman, and other histories. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to why during close 500 years of Ottoman hegemony over much of the Middle East (as you mention, since 1492)there was not a Jewish state created, not only that, until the retreat of the Ottomans from those lands, only during the British mandate Jews were permitted to enter Palestine something that was strictly forbidden during Ottoman rule. Does it take Turkish genius to completely rewrite world history? If so then please rewrite those eras which are not recorded in script and images. Whatever Jews and Turks may have in common one thing is certain, they both have the genius to rewrite history, fictionalize it an use for their own agenda. Who taught whom? You may fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but the day will come when one may not fool all of the people all of the time. Why, say, Abdulhamid was against the formation of a Jewish state, fully independent or otherwise, when the Europeans (more like the British, I think) came up with the idea? Look at today for a hint. Regardless of the abuses of the Israeli state, Arab states cannot stand the existence. For the Ottoman viziers/advisors, a Jewish state there would mean an unsuccessful organ implant that was repelled by the body. The Jews of Konya were those who had been deported from Palestine because of unrest over there with the Arabs, long, long ago. Except for isolated cases such as these, Jews were allowed to go where they liked. Your asking about such is as irrelevant as a question I would raise regarding the legitimacy of European civilization, democracy, whatever – you name it! – if I were to remind you that the Europeans who asked the Ottomans to set up a multi-national parliament actually treated their non-like subjects in their colonies no better, if not worse.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: alright, i do not live in a city where we experience everyday terror. we experience everyweek terror (now english is one new word richer ). when i was a child, we did experience everyday terror: our house was machine-gunned, my dad's car was planted a bomb, my parents' friends were killed by extreme left or extreme right, i had to choose the german school instead of galatasaray (the french "lycée imperiale") although i had won the exams, and both my grandfather as well as my father were its graduates, the terror was one of the main reasons why my parents divorced (my mother couldn't handle it any longer) etc. etc. so don't tell me about everyday terror. diyarbakır and muş were until very recently what istanbul was like in the 1970s, in which we grew up. And my parents experienced those years and another set a decade before... My father, he tells us, was the only one in his school (law in the University of Ankara) who wasn’t involved in such stuff, to any degree – and so his friends used to ask him if he was working for the police. “Not leftist, not rightist? Police?” He, too, had his car molested. My uncle and aunt also had a difficult time going to school when they were just kids – my grandparents would be so anxious for them. My uncle also put up with the similar – school was shut for about a semester, and then they had to compress (so to speak) the year to graduate the kids on time, thus screwing a couple of summer vacations or so. You hear the similar everywhere – from a teacher that told us about how sick and tired he had got of having someone barge into class in the middle of the lecture and call out everyone to a “forum” (he was telling us why he hated having people late to class) to another friend’s father who would be at a faculty meeting and then students would come and shoo them out and even threaten them... Nasty.

quote:Originally posted by hagarag (what happened to the old name?): It is absolutely despicable what the Turkish groups are trying to do, building friendships with other ethnic and religious groups in order to insure that the Armenians NEVER get justice. Khodja, I consider that an insult to the people you say Turks are trying to make friends with. People (Jewish, Hispanic, etc., individuals – not groups) can think for themselves and in fact come to the same conclusions as some of us if you are able to present your case without flushing out the Turks. In a more distant future, we hope (its not being sooner is not what we hope for but what we all must succumb to), that small ratio can become larger.

quote Well, I shouldn’t have to think too hard when people say things like this: quote I wasn’t saying that this (removing Taliban for grave abuses) is what is declared to be the intention of the U.S. government, in Turkish media (although I am not aware of what kind of speeches speechifiers happen to deliver). I’m talking about what I hear (read, “read”) Americans saying around (on forums). I'm sure you don't mean to imply that, so why do the "oppressors" and the "we're onto them"? quote Other than the “openly” there, the same can be said of Belgium and Germany, to an extent (and certainly Greece and Syria). quote Where did I get my impressions from? Well, obviously, MJ, I’ve had quite some contact with Americans and Canadians (though haven’t come around to seeing just what is supposed to make them different) in my younger years (wish I had now, so I could learn more with my relatively more developed sense), both fellow students and teachers. Of course, compared to your experience, it is “an ear on the camel” (size-/quantity-wise - as we say in Turkish), but I’m also thinking that you perhaps have a very “select” group to interact with (quality-wise) as far as the dinners go. I’m not saying the people I interacted with were hicks or what have you, either. And, well, running in parallel with Americans’ not knowing much about other countries and nations, I have found quite a significant portion of the population of my school to have the inability to understand other cultures or to not possess the desire to learn about them (so it is not just about lack of exposure). Most were too indifferent or immersed in their “embassy-happy-hour” isolation and only so-so in their attitude. Exceptions were often too extreme cases and were of those who had made a living style out of it (had one teacher who had taught in Iran, Egypt, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh [probably in that order]). And I disagree that the government’s knowing all there is to know does it all. The ordinary citizen’s best involvement in his/her government is that which comes along with making the right choices, but how can this be true with foreign policy (especially in a country so dominating in almost everything) if there is a lack of interest there? It is true that the imbedded elements within the structure of the state will be resistant to change (as seen in the case of the Armenian Americans who are now disappointed in Bush), but the people SHOULD be able to make a difference and give it a bit of a shape. I never find the level of interest here enough, either. That said, I’m not saying being America-centered (or being centered on one’s country) is not understandable, given there are Turks who are America-centered-wannabes, but I do think it is not just an overwhelming generalization when it comes to Americans. (And generalizing is not a bad thing, is it? We do use generalizations when trying to explain the reasons behind Turkish knee-jerks to their country’s policies, especially on this forum where the Armenian Genocide is a concern. Obviously, not all Turks are as defensive, but use of generalizations gets our points through.)

quote I thought it might be Farsi because I saw a couple of place names in Iran on the map, things like Qara Tupraq or whatever... So it is Turkish, huh?

quote:Originally posted by Aghmug: Two cannibals are sitting by a campfire eating dinner: Cannibal #1: I really hate my wife. Cannibal #2: Then just eat the noodles. [ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Aghmug ] LOL... Good.

MJ, I AM aware of the “oil factor.” Your point about Turkey also being supported despite its record is correct; however, Turkey IS under pressure, both from the U.S. and from Europe, to reform. Can this be said of the Saudis? (And I am not right only to a degree. Just because they do not torture [don’t they?] doesn’t give them leave to make women live the way they do, although they poop on toilets with golden rims.) No. Albright just lightly touches on it in one visit there, and that’s it. What would happen if the U.S. “cared” as much for the women as it does for the people (perhaps especially the Kurds) of Turkey (does it)? Would the Saudis raise oil prices? “Not the women, not the oil.” Is Turkey the lesser two of the allies? Why do we find Rouben Malayan’s hiding behind his cause to act like a total dweeb and having the audacity to call me a barbarian because I asked him questions he couldn’t answer, abhorrent? My point (with the above and previous comments) is that there is no room for “morality talk,” so it shouldn’t be mentioned. Nothing about “good intentions,” and nothing about removing the Taliban because of their grave abuses – does Iran have to send a bomb-filled plane into a building in the U.S. to have the U.S. finally remember that there is a disgusting regime there (alongside the fact that it has sent a pack of suicidals)? The “good intentions” bit for what his government does is for the commoner to find excuses for what he cannot explain. That person is easily lulled when some speaker goes up and talks about supporting a regime because of benefit but also when the same person goes up and talks about opposing a regime because of moral whatever. Somehow I never get the impression that it is spelled to be the other way around, that is, supporting out of moral concerns and opposing because of benefit. Now, whatever the heck happened to the good intentions? Somehow they just don’t fit in anymore. Now for your mandate to your government to protect you and your family while I put myself through some intellectual exercise – really, are they protecting you this way? By bombing/punishing Afghanistan? Does it really prevent any further of the same? Is this really your last resort after years of trying to find other venues? I’m not sure years of sanctions against Afghanistan count. And I am not at all happy with the way they are carrying out their stuff. The conception of the operation and the actual execution are two different things, but I’m thinking that they were perhaps a bit too hasty – and the conception flawed. Punishing the government that has ordered the attacks or harbours the culprit is your right (and perhaps not RETALIATION per se, come to think of it – which would mean just doing the equal in the opposite direction, no, as there is an element of revenge?). But whom are you punishing and how? These flaws (hitting the wrong targets) are really too much for me who cannot accept the “there are going to be civilian casualties but that’s the heavy price of war,” etc., besides the fact that I am not tried to be convinced that it is Osama anyway – I just have to take someone’s word. I cannot accept that one more Afghani civilian has to die because of the 5000+ American deaths or because Americans feel comfortable and safe if Afghanistan is bombed. I never felt I would be safe to go to the East when, a few years ago, Turkey threatened to declare war on Syria (perhaps because of the distance, too?). What “mistakes” they were already making in Northern Iraq, killing civilians, were enough, and now there was Syria next in line (but after years of trying other venues). Great. Good thing the Syrians were wise and kicked Öcalan out... Which reminds me... Why did not the Taliban hand over Osama? Could it be more than about Osama being “the one to hand over the Taliban government”? I just don’t get the impression that the U.S. could have (not “has”) done enough to minimize civilian casualties under these circumstances. Now THAT should be unacceptable by all. This doesn’t mean that, now, once it has started, it should be or can be called off... But why was it given the green light like this, then? The “grotesque” part – I haven’t distorted anything. The case of Armenia and the PKK, in which it was proven that there is no such connection (I think), is not like with Syria and Greece in which Turkey informed many other governments of the role they played in rearing the PKK and in which Turkey provided the evidence (or rather added an element of official assurance to things already on the newspapers for a long, long time) – but nobody heeded the stuff. Again, because it is not moral but totally out of benefit, I would have a heart-attack if Italy SENT troops to help Turkey (makes all the difference in the world whether it is Turkey or the U.S., doesn’t it?). And if you’re all saying, “Yeah, nothing new about that,” then why is there all this “O our allies and O the delight of our eyes – how they have come to help us!” masturbation all over the place as well as all those speeches in parliaments about the sacrosanct nature of this “help”? Something is awfully wrong all over, isn’t it? Or is this just not the time to pinpoint the world’s wrongs? MJ, I haven’t been able to follow what you wanted to say with the “haves and have-nots” as far as universities and media are concerned. I wasn’t sure if you meant all the world or just the U.S. (judging from your mention of the First Amendment, Elvis is alive stuff, etc. – I wasn’t sure which direction to turn to after the “even in the U.S.”). CIA and its having to hide certain facts to prevent the stopping of leaks – I don’t know. That (and the conclusions reached via the “evidence”) just seems too classical and not at all convincing when it was the same CIA that counted/named corpses that were actually not supposed to be dead but were alive and well in the U.S., Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere. Or was it just a game to fool some people, to give the impression that the CIA was on the wrong track? I can be accused of stuck there – but I don’t trust the CIA because of these events. I have no other choice than to accept what they say they will do, perhaps, but then what good am I? The morality of the American people – what good is it if everyone including themselves knows that most Americans are America-centred and few follow up or try to understand world affairs (perhaps coupled with the media as you characterize it, except for this event with the 85% ratio [which implies I perhaps have a slight idea as to what MJ was trying to say?])? As for Juggernaut’s “it’s America’s fault that it got attacked on Sept. 11” – that is BS. It is the sick-in-the-headedness of the mastermind that has been able to kill thousands of innocent people in one move that is the fault here – not the U.S.’s (see, that mastermind hasn’t been able to think the way I do – that a death of one of yours doesn’t mean there can be another death, from among yours or the other’s, and, unlike what the U.S. claims, this move was not in self-defense, either; so why give him allowance, Jug?). It is like trying to say that Özdemir Sabancı deserved to be killed because he was a big-time money-making businessman and Fehriye Erdal the good-for-nothing leftist just couldn’t take that or it didn’t suit her ideology – and Belgium is OK to be so gaa-gaa for this “freedom-fighter.”

MJ, just shortly: Armen is the guy whom Steve introduced me to in Kayseri. He is the one Steve was awaiting a word from. And that Oktay Ekinci I mentioned is president of the Turkish counterpart of the Architects' Union or whatever... At the time we where discussing the issue, I had not come across this report of Steve. Might it be that it has been added afterwards? If it has been there and I have not seen it at the time, I am ready to acknowledge my sloppy glancing of his site. However, if even it was there, I think that's not how you bring attention to such an urgent and critical issue. No, I think it was there. I seem to remember browsing through it shortly after Steve asked for a translation in the Help section... I haven’t seen neither any evidence nor a report that the blasts have not stopped as of August 1st. As to the weather, September-October is the most gorgeous time in Armenia. If you ever consider visiting Armenia, try this season. It is absolutely breathtaking there at that time of the year. The weather is most magnificant and, clearly, it cannot hinder the blasts, if that was the intention. That was my intention, but I don't know... I was in Kars for a day, on the 16th-17th of August, I think (for less than twenty four hours) - and it was cold the following morning, brrrr - and a total shock getting to Doğubeyazıt.

What I meant to say was - I can't imagine a hypoopy-crite Italy, so totally concerned for fellow human beings, sending us aid if we had decided to do the same to Syria - and not after years but a fortnight... Actually, those years gave us proof of Öcalan's stuff... While the Syrian officials denied his presence on their territory, Mehmet Ali Birand interviewed him twice - once in the late eighties and once in the early nineties... LOL...

quote:Originally posted by MJ: Thorny, There is no shred of doubt that Bin Laden was behind the actions (not the first one, by the way). (I know it for sure. It is proven. There is a Ceritficate of Proof signed by Yassir Arafat. ) About 85% of the American population (according to the polls), including my whole family, supports the operation. If I was conscripted to the American Army, I would've not hesitated for a moment to come at Al-Qaida and Taliban with all the power available - the sole purpose being total eradication. Please tell me what do you see stupid in our retaliation, and wohat would you consider proof. MJ, I am not convinced that it is Osama. I see little wrong in retaliation. However, I think that you may be punishing the wrong people in the first place, undesirable though they are. What makes me doubt the certainty? A lot of things. Consider, for example, the way a lot of the Arabs supposedly on that plane as hijackers turned up at the American embassies abroad and pleaded innocent and said they were alive and well and at home all the while. It gives me the image of something being tried to be slapped into shape haphazardly - and there you have Osama! Hoo haaa!! That does not warrant proof for me, although, in this case, Osama's denial (if it is denial) of involvement will not mean to me that he isn't involved - but, really, the way things are seen, don't you think that the U.S. IS doing a bad disservice to itself after all, practically falling into a certain trap of Osama's, maybe? Maybe there are arse-kisser governements (like the all-noble Italians who care SOOOOOOOOOOOOH much for the eradication of terrorism!) here and there sending troops (and please don't say they owe it to the U.S. as payback for aid), but you will see that a lot of PEOPLE around the world are angered by this. Now, are WE stupid? quote:Originally posted by THOTH: Thorny - basically I have to agree with MJ and Azat on this one. there can be no doubt concerning the guilt of Bin Laden/Al Queda. Equally so there is no doubt concerning the relationship between Bin Laden and Taliban. It is certainly within our rights to strike back. Additionally, Taliban is an entity that has been commiting grave abuses in Afghanistan and any decent, intelligent person should be all in favor of their removal. This of course does not mean that the US should necessarily be the judge/jury and executioner - but if so and if supported/allied with/by indigenous and neighboring elements - so much the better. Of course we should be concerned regarding the doability and pitfalls of such an operation - and personanally I would suspend it for a bit at this time. (for a variety of reasons). I'm sorry if you (and much of the world) resents the US power position in the world today and sees us as some kind of unknowing giant buffoons stomping about around the world. Obviously our leaders often lead to these perceptions in the manner they come accross - etc - but let me assure you - there are many very smart and informed folks here - making decisions based on thourghough analysis and good intentions - are they perfect - or all informed - etc - no - but this is an impossibility. Are they sensitive to the (very many) issues surounding a campaign of this sort and of our relations with other nations and among nations in the region and the world - I think so - for the most part. Is what the US is doing in Afghanistan still foolhardy and doomed to fail - perhaps it is. We shall see I guess. Amnd its certainly OK to be a critic - and I undeerstand (and smpathize with) many of objections to the US (and allied) action occuring today (and have been hoping really hard since it was first contemplated that they can avoid obvious and not so pitfalls and errors - reral/PR and otherwise...) - just the same - don't think that the US is pursuing this campaign in a totally naive fashion - it is not. [ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ] No, I am not into the "U.S. is a bully" polemics (but do laugh at the view of self as "liberators" - come on, how to explain the continued existence of a regime that oppresses 51% of its women [the Saudis] and good relations with it when they are thinking to damn much about the Afghani people, too?)... But, sitting around, looking at the papers, watching TV, listening to folks, etc., I was surprised they just made a swift dive into Afghanistan, as easy as that. Just some people were saying they had evidence (what evidence?) and they planned and executed. It's like us Turks listening to and unconditionally accepting the government go on and on about how we are tried to be torn apart by enemies from within and from without (true, to an extent - but not always the way they make it). No-one owes proof? OK, then - Armenia harbours the PKK. There. And Ankara does not owe us any proof. What? Armenia denying it, you say? Of course, they are, the bastards. We have sufficient proof cuz we say so; our intelligence has notified us so. There, let's go get'em. Better not wait too long, too... Who knows if the Armenian government will run away... Who says I'm naive? I mean, 80% of the people have bought into my stuff, so no problem there... Why bother with an explanation? Pooh. It's just that there are no moral explanations to this - but it is us the people that have to control this sucker. Come on - what's with the Saudis? Why are such oppressors (51% - a record?) favoured by the U.S.? Does it have to be pain inflicted on you to make a difference after all? What have you been doing/telling the Saudis to do to improve their human rights record (oops!! any mention of such?)? What, Saudi Arabia not candidate for the E.U.? What's moral about that?

quote:Originally posted by Azat: I personally disagree with the way the war is being handled in Afghanistan as well, however we did not wake up one day and said today we are going to attack Afghanistan. It was only after they attacked us on our own land. America does not owe the right to prove to you or to I that Bin Laden was guilty. They did show to the appropriate parties that he was behind the WTC bombing, and the embassy bombing. This includes the officials of your country who are willing to become the first Muslim country to send troops and also Pakistan who is one of the main supporters on the Taliban. No need for the truth, either, then, if we are not owed an explanation? As for our gov - sod them. As for the link I provided - it is just to another forum where I think there may be something on that. I didn't go after and have a look, but his commentary points to the possibility that he has posted such before. As for radical - you bet he is.

quote:Thorny, Reportedly, indeed the date of stopping the blasts has been August 1, 2001. I distinctly remember Steve saying that he would not have a way of verifying the facts of explosions till mid September. Therefore, I think there is a disconnect here with what you report. I know how it is to lose a hard drive, so I would not hold it against you. However, I have to tell you that, with all due respect, your assertions about continuing explosions beyond that date cannot be taken for fact. I also thing that there are records of related discussions in your own forum, and you should go and check them vs. the dates they have been posted. I have done it at the time. I’m not sure what good going through them will do, as I couldn’t have said anything about what that lady told me on the phone. I’ve told Steve (and perhaps Pappy) only, with the exception of mentioning such on TACT (see below). In a short while, I’ll increase the number of threads per page to fifty so we can search through the material through the “view all” link more efficiently. quote: I am sure that after UNESCO had brought to the attention of Oskanian the fact of the blasts and their alleged damage (at least in his eyes), he has appealed to the appropriate controlling authorities. But the respond he has received (this can be easily deduced from the materials I have posted in our forum in the past) has been that the blasts of the character and magnitude practiced could not have impact on the monuments of Ani, and the insinuations just constitute political demagoguery and diplomatic maneuverings from the Turkish side. Whether this is technically accurate or not, I don’t have a way of assessing. However, I do clearly see that indeed the political demagoguery and diplomatic maneuverings where in place. If challenged, I would support this argument with logical and factual evidence. In the eyes of Oskanian, who is being denied access to send specialists to the site so that to check the impact of the explosions, the above argument may be a legitimate one. After all, if there is impact, why wouldn’t the Turkish side be more than volunteering to make the evidence public and “score further political gains?” Honestly, I don’t know, but I think the Turkish side wouldn’t have been able to manage to score further political gains even if they wanted to, as far as speculating can go. On the other hand, I’m not surprised that they have denied access – it’s more of a “sensitive” issue for our paranoid creeps to allow Armenians somewhere like Ani. Regardless - ... quote Then where did I get the material for this from (and the date is there)? http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?fo...ageid=999927643 quote:If by mentioning the damage by Steve you mean the paragraph of his site referenced in his posting above, a sober person would realize that the guy here is talking about money (even regardless of the facts being incorrect in terms of the decision of building the cathedral being made after the money already wasraised and allocated for it), and “by the way,” about the “the fragile buildings in Ani literally being shaken.” If you consider the above being evidence, then I have to say that you and me have two very different sets of standards. Additionally, for the sake of the credibility of the alluded information (even if it is accurate), tell me please what does an archeologist/historian/scientist have to do with “rich donors,” or the “Armenian criminal elements?” When one reads such expressions, and follows the emphasis of the alluded text, it raises very explicit questions about the integrity of the alluded information. And if The Cat is concerned about the integrity of his own site and its professionalism, I think he ought to edit this paragraph there. Actually, no – I was referring to this paragraph of Steve’s from the section on the Cathedral: http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/cath...l/cathedral.htm quote As for his style, I would agree that he might have to impersonalize it. quote: Thorny, Reportedly, indeed the date of stopping the blasts has been August 1, 2001. (...) Thank you for the observations of Beyhan Karamağaralı referenced by you. Unfortunately, you have not noticed the date of that LA Times materials was August 30th, 2001. quote Not “starting” after taking measurements “first” – but halting (no matter what the cost), taking measurements, then resuming or calling it off. quote At any rate, by now, yes, they've probably stopped. I wonder how the weather affects their work... Will we have to wait until spring to see what they are up to?

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: Ali - you do not live in a city where you experience everyday terror - you live in Istanbul. If you want to experience everyday terror I think you should be living is Bingol or Mus or similar places! You seem to be saying that just because one side commits atrocities it is OK for "your" side to do it. But all you are doing is pouring more fuel on the fire. I suspect a lot of people here will see direct parallels with this photo and similar photos taken during the Armenian genocide. I wonder - would you like to live next to those soldiers, would you like your daughter to marry one? Your views are not barbarian - they are just rather thoughtless. I agree 100%, only to add that one doesn't really have to live somewhere where there is such to understand and relate and feel... The way we relate to what had been going on in our country, other people in the world should have been able to relate to, even if the interest/exposure decreases exponentially. Alas... These Italians are funny people.

quote:Originally posted by Azat: Thorny, It is against US policy to torture anyone. I assure you that the people who use any form of torture will be prosecuted and punished. This includes Military, Police and every level of the American government. It is completely against the American psyche as well. Prosecuted - will be or are they being...? The American psyche - what is the American psyche? Not being able to understand how stupid this whole operation in Afghanistan is? And, no, I am not talking about the winter cold. It took years of terrorism and a no-fly-zone for Turkey to move its troops into Northern Iraq - yet the first chance it gets, the U.S. sends its own half-way across the world even if it is not proven it is Bin Laden!? And, instead of criticizing and ostracizing, you now have Italy (yes, I am obsessed with Italy's hypoopy-cricy) sending support. And did I not read somewhere that quite a few Americans support this operation?? If it is going to be "rules above all else," yeah, they will get prosecuted. But "rules above all else" is not the way the world goes 'round... In fact, it was never spoken out in public here, but, many times, when there were those European MP's (OK, I'm generalizing here - guilty as charged) going bananas over terrorists and pontificating at length over "human rights" (yeah right), a lot of people here were saying, "Just you wait and see." Indeed, this strike and this new torture business with mere suspects (not even militants!) has proved us right. It is easy to go on and on and yap and smear all that crap across one's face when not ready to relate. And I think "Dirty Harry" conveyed a message whose significance one cannot belittle.

Called up Anıtsal, no dough. I'm thinking of sending Oktay Ekinci an e-mail... He is/was an architect and currently writes on Cumhuriyet. And because the Cumhuriyet dweebs now charge you to read their stuff online, I'll have to get myself the paper tomorrow to see what e-mail address he would like us to contact him through. MJ - I'll brb.

Steve, don't forget to post this stuff on MEF! They could benefit! http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/4359

quote:Originally posted by THOTH: I think that this "report" is mistaken. I can't look for a report right now, but it probably does exist on Ed's forum if you look. Here's why: http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?fo...geid=1004502422

quote:Originally posted by Azat: I must be the King of all cooks because for sure I make the best Dolma. Even though I do not eat it anymore because I was a bonehead and became a vegetarian 8-9 years ago. Be you my king! LOL! Actually, I don't understand people who cook what they themselves will not eat. How can you? I couldn't stand it. Actually, I have to thank my mother for being so sacrificing... Otherwise, no anchovies in a pan. So good when almost swimming in lemon juice, yum yum... :9