History

[Hayq]

History is nothing more than a Story. There are so many versions of "history" that it can not be taken seriously. Therefore, instead of worrying about what we were let us concentrate on what we are. Anything in History can be a great big LIE.

 

I say we MAKE History instead of dream and make up stories of what we were.

 

So, if you think having the world's oldest sewer system and spreading the olive tree throughout the world is a major accomplishment, then look at us now. We are nothing. LETS MAKE SOMETHING OF OURSELVES!

[gamavor]

I could not agree more than that! Very well said, however in order to make "something of ourselves" we need to first understand who we are, where we came from, and where we are heading. Otherwise after 200 years two Armenians, like you and me, will chat maybe with much more advance technology somewhere in the cyber space and will ponder about what went wrong. They might also exchange stories about how boring their grand-grand parents life was in the non-existent USA.

[shaunt]

There is a difference between mythology and history.

[bellthecat]

There is a difference between mythology and history.

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History advances. Mythology resists.

[Armenian Highlander]

We are nothing. LETS MAKE SOMETHING OF OURSELVES!

 

 

We are nothing??? We are nothing??? I really whish I have misunderstood what you are stating. However, what a twisted and absurd comment you have just made. I don't even know how to reply to that statement.

 

As long as you continue feeling that way about your nation, you may just well end up mounting to nothing. God forbid these types of feelings accumulates in our people.

 

Were does all this self-hate, self-pity, defeatist and destructive behavior come from? I am truly baffled... I have always met Armenian who differed from me ideologically, but never, in my entire life, have I been so exposed to such profound levels of self-hate as I am witnessing here within this forum. I just can't explain it.

 

Regarding everything you stated: I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

First of all: I am primarily concerned with "MY" version of history, all the other versions can go to hell. Name me another nation that is concerned about another nation's version of history. Don’t worry about other "versions" - first know your own, before you begin to concern yourself about others.

 

Second: the reason why we Armenians are so marginalized today is primarily because for centuries Armenians essentially did not know their history, thus, did not know who they were. Great minority of Armenians of the Ottoman Empire were hopelessly Turkified, they differed from their non-Armenian counterparts solely by the "church" they attended. Any nationalism that there may have been within main-stream Armenian society of the time was promoted and preserved primarily by those who took the time out and studied their history and national culture.

 

Third: you say lets "MAKE" history. I say, yes, lets make history, each to his/her abilities, that is what is expected of all concerned Armenians. However, using your logic - there maybe individuals like 'you' in the future who may say "what history" let's make our own history. There is absolutely no logic in this manner of thought, moreover, its self-defeating. Besides which, where would this type of an approach ideologically and rhetorically lead us...? In circles!

 

It is absolutely absurd how people within this forum freak out and begin to foam at the mouth as soon as an Armenian displays pride in his/her heritage. You "bright lights" within society really think you are going to keep the Armenian spirit alive with this attitude - especially within the Diaspora?

 

No, my friend, history is not just a story, its a "record" of where we have been and who we have been. Thus, it would be prudent to read the "record" that has been written in the blood of our countless warriors and saints in order to realize who you are and where you may be heading. It is a sad day in the Armenian Diaspora when we begin discussing such fundamental issues regarding our culture and identity.

 

I have studied history most of my life and I take especial pride in my national culture. What's more, I am always seeking to share my pride and knowledge with fellow Armenians. Yet, I get ridiculed by fellow Armenians for being Armeno-centric. Listen, you don’t' have to like history, that mental defect is your personal problem, however, why are you ridiculing those that do? Yes, I am damn proud that it was through my ancestral lands that the world was civilized.

 

What does this all mean to real world politics - absolutely nothing. But who said it need to anyway? Can a person have scholarly interest? My pride in my culture and my ancestral lands is intellectual and spiritual, why are you people foaming at the mouth? Nevertheless, Armenians who display no interest of who they are and where they have been are worthless as Armenian in my opinion. And such people would do us all a great favor if they quietly assimilated into their respective diasporan societies and refrain from poisoning our already vulnerable communities worldwide.

 

What satisfaction do you people get when you belittle and marginalize your national culture and history?

[bellthecat]

First of all: I am primarily concerned with "MY" version of history, all the other versions can go to hell. Name me another nation that is concerned about another nation's version of history. Don’t worry about other "versions" - first know your own, before you begin to concern yourself about others.

 

You are appearing more ludicrous with each post you make. That's MY version of YOUR history here so far. Your extraordinarily backward, insular, almost medieval, outlook on history is about 500 years out of date. But if you really want believe in fantasy rather than the truth, then at least keep that fantasy to yourself.

[Ludwig9]

We are nothing. LETS MAKE SOMETHING OF OURSELVES!

 

Please make the correction from - We are nothing - to you are nothing -. I suggest you go and read some history (Armenian Highlander has posted some great articles) so you can learn from the past and use your knowledge to build for a better future.

 

But wait, what is going to happen is that you might do something in the future that is note worthy and you might be recognized as a significant person in Armenian history. But, soon after that happens someone else will come along and say

We are nothing. LETS MAKE SOMETHING OF OURSELVES!

And completely disregard your works and not to take you seriously.

 

Is this type of thinking going to make you strive to make something of yourself ?

 

Or am I being redundant ?

 

 

And to bellthecat, can you offer something except criticism ?

[bellthecat]

And to bellthecat, can you offer something except criticism ?

 

I am not offering criticism. If I thought that there was anything positive to be gained by going through some of ArmenianHighlanders posting's then I would give criticism - but so far they are not worth that expenditure of time.

[shaunt]

In due time, ie when certain individuals stop making ludicrous posts.

 

And to bellthecat, can you offer something except criticism ?

[Hayq]

Let me clerify that line up for you, Armenians in Los Angeles are disgusting and chose to take the path of the common mexican street thug rather than a clean citizen. Armenia is in deep shit and is making plenty of errors.

 

True, History is fascinating, but we should work on what we are today and what we will become tommorow.

[Accelerated]

Let me clerify that line up for you, Armenians in Los Angeles are disgusting and chose to take the path of the common mexican street thug rather than a clean citizen. Armenia is in deep shit and is making plenty of errors.

 

what has that got to do with history. While ignorants make up stupid excuses to cover-up their own lack of knowledge, there are many valuable lessons that can be learned by studying history

[Hayq]

No, see, most people live in "What We Were" world, that is not the same as "What we Are".

 

If you make such claims as; Armenians built this, Armenians were the best astronomers, blah blha blah. That still does not mean that Armenians TODAY are special. For example, Greeks and Turks love to get lost in the tales of yesteryear, none of them seems to take any concern about what Greece and Turkey have become now (tourist cespools).

 

We are alive today, TODAY!, what happened yesterday does not mean jack squat if we are not here today or will be here tommorow. So, I demand we concentrate on more serious things such as the construction of a strong Armenian Homeland instead of history which does not matter today.

 

And, For your information, i do not see any valuable lessons being learned. If stories about how great we WERE and how many great armenians thereWERE is what you only talk about.

 

We Armenians should have learnt one valuable lesson after the Genocide, but we still have not, therefore, many genocides will follow...you can quote me on that...

 

Lack of Unity and trust in a strong central government. The most valuable lessons in history are not being learned, instead you chose to gloat instead of learn. Read US history durings it first years, read the history of revolutions throughout Europe and the ideology of great minds before...not some dam* sewer system...

 

Pax Armenia

[Armenian Highlander]

Let me clarify what I mean:

 

Our ancestral homeland is the epicenter of world civilization - it is where civilized man first began to cultivate the land. We Armenians today are thus, the off-springs of the primordial tribes that first entered the pages of world history. And, we, their off-springs, have not stopped making history for over four thousand years. Our history is one long and bloody epic of resilience, endurance and creativity. I don't know why you cannot respect and enjoy your heritage, learn lessons from it and at the same time concentrate on the present and look to the future?

 

Since you are rightfully concerned about the present, consider the following:

 

Despite the war against Azerbaijan, the earthquake, the Turkish blockade, the Soviet collapse and Armenia's landlocked nature, the Republic of Armenia today records one of the highest economic growth rates within the region and is politically, socially and economically one of the most stable nations within the world today. Thus, think of the aforementioned before you despair over worthless Armenians acting like Mexicans.

 

Despite Armenia's tiny land mass, small population and non-existent economy, Armenia with, no foreign, support soundly defeated a much larger Turkish foe that was even supplemented with mercenaries from Chechnya, Afghanistan and Ukraine. Think of the aforementioned before you think about Armenian weakness.

 

Despite living amongst barbarians for close to a thousand years, we Armenian have the most refined national culture within the region and would confidently compete against any western nation within the field of creativity and intelligence. Think of the aforementioned before you think about Armenians not mounting to anything.

 

Despite deep seated sociological and cultural differences between eastern and western Armenians (which were in essence fostered because of centuries of separation and, thereafter, the cold war), there are many Diasporan Armenian patriots worldwide that are positively impacting the Armenian Republic (instead of sitting in their houses and feeling sorry for themselves).

 

Despite our ideological difference and different political approaches, we Armenian still collectively strive for what is best for our homeland. Since, Armenians like you enjoy comparing our nation to the wonderful Jews, do you know that there are dozens of religious and secular Jewish organization that do not even recognize the State of Israel? Moreover, do you know that there are dozens of Jewish organizations that call for pull out of Israeli settlements form Palestinian territories and actually send large amounts of money to displaced Palestinians? If you know of any Armenian organizations that call on the Armenian government to pull out of Artsakh, or send money to Azeris displaced in Baku, I ask you to forward me their information.

 

Despite four thousand years of blood-shed and catastrophes, Armenian still exists. Let us see how long your beloved American culture is going to last. Thus, don’t compare Armenian to European nations or America, doing so is irrational and stupid to say the least. Despite hundreds of years of foreign subjugation, invasions, massacres and genocide, Armenia is a major geo-political factor within the Caucasus. Nevertheless, instead of comparing Armenia to major world powers to day let us learn from modern nations and form our historic experiences and apply them to the betterment of our homeland.

 

Despite Armenia's post-Soviet economic collapse and subsequent social decay, Armenian science, academia and arts are still on par with any western nation. Armenians today, as in the past, are prominently represented upon every prominent musical stage, within every prominent art gallery, within every prominent scientific research center, within every prominent university, within every prominent sports field. Armenian national culture, history and national accomplishments, despite a thousand years of Turkic subjugation and isolation, is nothing but a miracle. Yet, we have Armenian like you today who only see Armenians acting like Mexicans and/or blacks.

 

If you want to concentrate on the filth that is present within our society today, that which, incidentally, every society on earth suffers from, that is your prerogative. Nevertheless, doing so shows your self-hate and misplaced priorities. Just realize that it is not Armenians who act like street punks that are going to pass on our national culture to our future generations - its is concerned Armenians like you and I that is going to do that. Concentrate on the positive aspects of our nation and culture, put Armenia in a proper geo-political perspective, look at our great history and learn form it. Let's all build a better future for our children.

[Accelerated]

And, For your information, i do not see any valuable lessons being learned.

 

....and one sentence later, this:

 

We Armenians should have learnt one valuable lesson after the Genocide....

 

and this....

 

The most valuable lessons in history are not being learned, instead you chose to gloat instead of learn.

 

make up your mind....

[Hayq]

All three are the same thing!

 

Armenians are divided morons, each man a sheep and a shepheard, thats what we were during the Genocide and got killed. The lesson not being learned is that we need to elect a leader to unite us and lead us into the future.

[Teutonic Knight]

http://www.atour.com/~aahgn/news/20010817d.html

 

Speaking of helping the enemy.

 

~~~

 

The Truth that No One Wants to Admit About TARC

 

by Garo Adanalian - August 13, 2001

 

 

 

The Armenian contingent of the Turkish Armenian Reconciliation

Commission (TARC) is represented by the Armenian Assembly of

America (AAA), in conjunction with members and former

administration officials of the infamous Armenian National Movement

(ANM).

 

In an August 2 statement made by the Armenian members of TARC, its

members claim that "from around the world, most Armenians have

offered support, both publicly and privately. They share with us

the belief that if Armenians and Turks talk directly and in a

structured fashion, addressing the numerous issues that divide us,

some progress may follow."

 

I do not recall any public statements made by Armenian

organizations or political groups in Armenia or the Diaspora

showing their direct support for such dialogue, with the exception

of the AAA and the Armenian Council of America, the political wing

of the Social Democrat Hunchak Party of the US--an organization

that has evidently severed all links to its revolutionary past and

original mission or purpose--which merely supports the initiative

with "cautious optimism."

 

The ARF Bureau released a strong statement of disapproval on July

13, and on July 31, eight political parties and deputy groups in

Armenia, including the National Democratic Union, Communist Party,

Republican Party, Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Constitutional

Right Union, Country of Laws party, and deputy groups People's

Deputy and Agroindustrial People's Union, released a statement

condemning the commission.

 

The term "most Armenians" in and of itself is as misleading as it

is a distortion of the truth; no evidence can verify its

validity. This rhetorical statement by TARC is further proof why

this commission and its advocates, primarily members of the AAA and

the ANM, cannot be trusted to speak in the name of the Armenian

people in any form of dialogue with any nation, let alone Turkey.

 

Make no mistake that the AAA is an organization closely aligned

with the US State Department, which means that it is more closely

aligned with the interests of the US administration than those of

Armenia and the Armenian people. As the United States and Turkey

are NATO members and strong military allies, the United States has

vested interests in Turkey.

 

Moreover, US oil companies have strong interests in the Caspian Sea

and want to appease Azerbaijan in all ways possible to tap into its

oil resources. The State Department has no viable interest in

Armenia--it has no interest in Armenian Genocide recognition,

restitution, and restoration of Armenian territories occupied by

Turkey, or the dispute of Nagorno Karabagh.

 

In short, the State Department has no compassion for the Armenian

Cause. It will try to use Armenia and na?ïve Armenian-Americans,

like the AAA and its supporters, to achieve its goals of

destabilizing Russia's influence in the Caucasus and tapping into

the oil reserves of the Caspian, which brings us to the

establishment of TARC and the US support of such meaningless

dialogue.

 

The State Department needs TARC to try to convince the Armenian

community to be "reasonable" and allow for concessions on issues

such as the Armenian Genocide and the self-determination of Nagorno

Karabagh in order to open the borders between Turkey and

Armenia. The United States wants to build oil pipelines in the

region and will not do so as long as the region faces the

possibility of a renewal of war. If the State Department has the

approval of the Armenian-American community, which it perceives as

being led by the AAA, and TARC, it can somehow broker a deal to

include making concessions on Armenian lands and stalling continued

attempts in convincing the Turkish government to acknowledge the

Armenian Genocide by having the blockade on Armenia lifted.

 

The AAA is an organization comprising Armenian-Americans that

represent the established and elite or those that want to be

associated with the established and elite. It does not serve the

direct interests of the common Armenian people in Armenia or in the

Armenian Diaspora.

 

The AAA exists to support Armenia and Armenian-American issues only

if its members can benefit in financial, personal, or social status

terms. It does not care about socio-economic concerns facing the

Armenian people in the homeland--this fact is clearly evident. Note

that the Assembly does not directly support the self-determination

and national integrity of Nagorno Karabagh and the right to

maintaining and developing the liberated territories. Moreover, it

does not want to advocate recognition of the Armenian Genocide in a

political forum and does not advocate restitution, reparations, and

return of historic Armenian territories to the Republic of Armenia,

but merely advocates "affirmation" of the Genocide.

 

The Armenian Genocide is important for the Assembly to be

recognized as a historic event by the US government, but only to be

recognized and then placed in a museum, eventually to be forgotten

as another tragic event in the history of the world.

 

TARC exists because wealthy Armenians in the United States and

Armenia want to make money, and they feel that they can do so not

only in Armenia but in Turkey as well. If the Turkish blockade on

Armenia is lifted, transport barriers to and from Armenia would be

eradicated. Armenian-American investors can then move in and

establish tourism enterprises and other capital-generating

institutions. But is the integrity of the Armenian people worth

such a sacrifice for a few to earn millions of dollars? What about

the historic lands of the Armenian people--are they to be

sacrificed for the sake of American capitalism? What about the 1.5

million souls that died for their land, culture, and heritage? What

about the thousands more that died defending and preserving the

homeland?

 

The Armenian people in the homeland are suffering. They are

jobless, hungry, and desolate. They need employment in order to

live. Why don't established and elite Armenian-Americans invest

directly in Armenia and build factories and industries there to

employ hundreds of thousands of Armenians willing to work? By all

means, let the elite make its millions, but at least put the

Armenian people to work in order to do so. Why try to strike cheap

deals with Turkey in the name of reconciliation for the same

purpose--do we really need Turkey? Note that the countries that

traded with freely with Turkey, namely Georgia and Azerbaijan, are

actually in worse economic conditions than Armenia. Armenia lasted

10 years in its current social-economic condition without

economically unstable Turkey; it can certainly last 10 more with

the Armenian Diaspora's direct financial investment in the people

of Armenia. The Armenian people must continue to struggle in the

name of social justice, freedom, and democracy, and they should not

succumb to the sweet but deceptive words of a few opportunists.

 

--

Garo Adanalian is a former assistant editor of the Armenian Weekly

and still serves as a frequent contributor. He is a member of the

Armenian National Committee of America and has served as Chairman

of the Armenian National Committee of Eastern Massachusetts.

[THOTH]

All three are the same thing!

 

Armenians are divided morons, each man a sheep and a shepheard, thats what we were during the Genocide and got killed. The lesson not being learned is that we need to elect a leader to unite us and lead us into the future.

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may I suggest...Stalin...

[Hayq]

Armenians are in DIRE need of a Stalin....A man who can crush the way Armenians think. Somone who can put the crap at the bottom and the best at the TOP. A man who can take care of business...a man who is honest...Honesty.

 

A man who looks to develop the nation and the people in it! I might suggest Fidel Castro, although being a Marxist his policies need to be radically altered...

[Armen]

A man who can crush the way Armenians think. Somone who can put the crap at the bottom and the best at the TOP. A man who can take care of business...a man who is honest...Honesty.

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Hayq, how did you conclude that the person who must do all of these must be a Stalin or Fidel...?

[gamavor]

Stalin did exactly the opposite. He got rid of the 'best' and put the crap on the top.

[Hayq]

Alright, not Stalin, but a stalin-like man.

 

Because Armenians are not a race that follow democracy, they learn by being beaten down to a pulp.

[Armen]

Alright, not Stalin, but a stalin-like man.

 

Because Armenians are not a race that follow democracy, they learn by being beaten down to a pulp.

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There is truth is what you say but you say in in a way that it becomes a populist slogan. We are disorganized and anarchist that's true. However, you don't kill people for that. Who needs to be beaten is our government and leaders not the people. They need to make it a country of law. However, they hate the law themselves.

[Armen]

We are nothing. LETS MAKE SOMETHING OF OURSELVES!

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I am sure you don't think we are nothing. But it is good to think about it that way. Especially for Armenians. Even if you don't think that way it is healthy to bring yourself mentally to that starting point from time to time.

[gamavor]

We are nothing. LETS MAKE SOMETHING OF OURSELVES!

 

Yeah, I think it is very inspiring and emotionally fulfilling to take advice from people who believe that we are nothing. As far as I remember mathematically, nothing produces nothing, so why try.

[Armen]

Yeah, I think it is very inspiring and emotionally fulfilling to take advice from people who believe that we are nothing. As far as I remember mathematically, nothing produces nothing, so why try.

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Gamavor nothing is a very strong power. Just see how 1 becomes 1.000.000 when you add 6 "nothings" to it