Anileve Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Will I be eligible if I change my (nick)name to Arpuni? How about Bagratuni? Will the Vratsis let me? Or will the Jews? Since many believe that the Bagratunis were Jewish (hogwash!! We may come to that under a separate topic, except that if it were so how come there are not Jews with that surname?) So. If I understand correctly, we want to return the nation to the era of aristocracy and nobility. Have we decided who will be king? Obviously Robert is out since he has no noble lineage , neither in his given name nor in his surname of Kochar, a Turkic word meaning "nomad". How about Levon? More likely? Since we had kings by that name. If I were you I would first armenianize all those names above before starting a puritan aristocratic etnos. I popped a vein reading this. Arpa...I mean Bagratuni (oof that was good), you are something else, not to mention that you are something else that I agree with 150% percent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Arpa is right. More than 60% of those have non-Armenian names. Any name ending with -ouni is not Armenian but Persian. One Armenian nobleman I argued with a while ago responded to this saying how do you know the Persians didn't take those names from Armenians Meliks(arabic)???? I mean come on. Armenianize first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbatum Nobile Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 JSAS #3: Hewsen, Robert H. In Search of Armenian Nobility: Five Armenian Families of the Ottoman Empire, 93-118. NAASR: Volume II, Number 1: Spring/Summer 1985 The Bagratids in Armenia and Georgia by David Marshall Lang I only post this because earlier today I accidently found the JSAS article while looking through the Armenian journals at Young Research Library (UCLA). I'll check it out tomorrow after I'm done with my final. And I might have read the Lang article also, because his name sounds very familiar. Either that, or some other piece by him. PS: We have quite an assortment of books on Armenian issues in general. Thank you Shaunt. Finally, useful information and comments on substance. I will try to get these books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 (edited) I think the Union of Armenian Nobility deserve a chance to do all the good things that they are saying they will do. After we see that they indeed serve the people of Armenia in a meaningful way we can assume that they are honest and deserve the title of their grandparents. If not then they will be known as a group of dreaming and snobish individuals. As to changing names it makes no difference IMO. It would be nice to have Armenian names instead of foreing names but if they don't have ones then inventing new names would be pointless. In that case every Armenian can invent a noble name for himself Edited August 5, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbatum Nobile Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 ok mr nobleman, Verbatum Nobile or simply VN would do. Indeed Im not an expert in geneology or Armenian history, and I dont claim to be. Oh, but you do claim. Your entire posture here right from the onset was - and still is - based on the presumption that you know the history of Armenia to the extend and are so aware of all the sins of the Armenian nobility that can make strong accusations of “lies”. I do know a little bit of Armenian and general history and have based on opinion on what I have read. Regardless what you say, I am not here to judge your knowledge of history of Armenia. I am here to clarify whatever questions you or other participants may have regarding our site. And I wish these questions were put in a more mature and civilized manner. As to you grasp of the Armenian history, it very much depends on what exactly you have read and with what mindset. On your part, in all the long posts, you are still yet to prove that "The nobility traditionally played a mobilizing and leading role in the Armenian society, and greatly contributed to the preservation of Armenian national values, promotion of patriotism and the struggle of Armenians people for freedom.... " is fact. Many examples were already given above, in other posts. I will just repeat for you that the entire history of Armenia is my proof. King Artashes the Great, King Tigranes III the Great Artashesian, King Yervand Sakavakeats, Kings Trdat I and Trdat III, Lords Vardan Mamikonian, Gayl Vahan Mamikonian, King Ashot the Iron, King Gagik Artzruni, the kings of Bagratuni dynasty who built Ani, Kings Ruben and Levon, princes Zakarian, general Gevorg Marzpetuni, Davit-bek, diplomat Israel Ori – all these persons were nobles. All historical Armenian states - Kingdoms of Greater Armenia, Tzophk, Ani Kingdom, Kingdom of Vaspurakan, Kingdom of Ani, Kingdom of Kars, Kingdom of Syuniq, Cilician kingdom – these were all organized and ruled by the Armenian royal and noble houses. The Armenian alphabet became a reality because of the sponsorship of King Vramshapuh and a direct order from him to Sahak Partev and Mesrop Mashtots to create one. Khorenatsi’s “History of Armenia” was written because of the request and support from prince Sahak Bagratuni. Thousands of churches, castles, bridges, inns and palaces scattered throughout Armenia, …who do you think sponsored their construction? Garni was built by Trdat I, Geghard was built by princed Khaghbakian and Proshian, Dadivank was built by several noble houses, including the Dopians, Gandzasar was built by Hasan-Jalalians, Akhpat was built by Zakarian princes. Artsakh remained Armenian because of diplomatic, military, and financial contributions of meliks (princes) of Artsakh. Even when some Armenian noblemen were leaving Armenia, most of them were still trying to be helpful to the Armenian people. The Lazarians established an Institute of Armenian studies in Moscow. This building is now hosts the Armenian Embassy. Entire generations of Armenian noblemen were in the Russian imperial military service, most of them fighting for the independence of Armenia - see some of them here: http://www.petergen.com/publ/armkavge.shtml http://www.petergen.com/publ/armkavge2.shtml All that I listed above are just few examples of the deeds of the Armenian noblemen. Of course, all these were achieved with the participation and united efforts of the entire Armenian nation. Scientists, clergymen, peasants and craftsmen - all contributed to the strength of historical Armenia. But traditionally (at least up until the 18-19 centuries) the mobilizing and leading role belonged to the nobility… as it is rightly claimed on our site. And now let us see your list of “bad” Armenian nobility. Then we will compare the lists. What can you counter to the above? A couple of Vasaks and Shahnazars? …Are you serious? These kind of traitors existed in all classes of the Armenian society, including the "commoners". What does this prove? That the entire Armenian nation consists of betrayers? ...Or you seriously think that because of several irresponsible personalities we should give up the entire glory and wisdom of our past? …Is this a balanced view? You seriously think that I should waste my time in a forum and prove to every single nihilist the basics of our history? Please, make an effort and read your history not selectively focusing on a couple of “Vasaks”s or “Shahnazar”s, but in its entirety. Point me to a book or link on the net, and if you are right I will happily apologise for whatever grief I have caused you... Agathangelos “History of Armenia”, Movses Khorenatsi “History of Armenia”, Yeghishe “On Vardan’s War”, Hovhannes Draskhanakertsi “History of Armenia, Movses Kalankatuatsi “History of Aghvanq”, Kirakos Gandzaketsi “History of Armenia”… You know, I can go on and on. If you read these and hundreds of other books about the history of Armenia – not selectively, but in the entirety – you will get the right picture. Your apologies are hardly needed. The only grief that was caused is yet another proof for me that our nation does not really get mature in its judgment as time passes by. I am also preparing a long post with specific arguments but its taking too much time. I will consider completing it later, depending on your response.... The whole …”discussion”... is so immature that making it even longer would hardly help. So, please do not bother much making your posts longer. Especially because - as I have said in the beginning - due to the workload I will not be in a position to participate in the forum more than one business week. And the week ends tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbatum Nobile Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 I think the Union of Armenian Nobility deserve a chance to do all the good things that they are saying they will do. After we see that they indeed serve the people of Armenia in a meaningful way we can assume that they are honest and deserve the title of their grandparents. If not then they will be known as a group of dreaming and snobish individuals. Thank you for your support, Sasun. That is the only logical attitude: to wait and see, and then judge by the deeds. As to changing names it makes no difference IMO. It would be nice to have Armenian names instead of foreing names but if they don't have ones then inventing new names would be pointless. If this is being discussed seriously, then I also would very much advocate for it. There is some positive international experience. After gaining its independence Ireland introduced a special policy of changing traditional Irish names that were forcefully "Anglicized", back into Gaelic/Irish. Fore example, many Irishmen with a last name Money got a chance to change it back to the original Mahoney. You also most probably know that Turkey - I think during Ataturk's rule - introduced surnames (before that Turks did not have surnames, just like Mongols today). Everyone could pick up a last name from a list of government-approved names. It worked. It would definitely make sense for the Armenians to consider going back to their traditional surnames. All Turkic or Arabic surnames can be at least translated or somehow changed into Armenian ones. But, while being a good idea that was already expressed by some scientists in Armenia, this is not the UAN's coup of tea. There are Armenian states - Armenia and Artsakh - and this should be their governments’ work. And in any case this requires serious and careful approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Well, VN, best of luck, I suppose. One last question - how well-known is the UAN and how has it been received in general? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbatum Nobile Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Arpa is right. More than 60% of those have non-Armenian names. Once again, where you people get these percentages? "...at least 30%", "more than 60%"... How do you calculate? And, to start with, how do you distinguish between Armenian and Persian names if you do not know old Persian and, I suspect, have limited knowledge of old Armenian (both Grabar and proto-Armenian)? Any name ending with -ouni is not Armenian but Persian. This is a groundbreaking discovery. It would make sense if you contact the Institute of History of the Armenian Academy of Sciences and discuss the matter with them. As far as I know, the family endings "-uni" have nothing to do with Persians and are of Ararat (Urartian) origin. But I do not claim to be an expert in Armenian surnames. Meliks(arabic)???? I mean come on. Do not quite understand what was so funny or surprising for you. The word “melik” derives from "malik", which in old Semitic languages of Mesopotamia means "lord", "prince", "king". Some Semitic tribes were worshipping pagan god Molok (or Moloch); his name meant the same "lord". Today’s Yezidis worship Malak-i-Tauz, “lord Tauz”, whose cult is rooted in the Semitic Near Eastern beliefs. If this still looks funny to you, I suggest you talk to professional linguists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOB Posted August 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 And I wish these questions were put in a more mature and civilized manner. That is the only logical attitude: to wait and see, and then judge by the deeds. Exactly. Verbatum Nobile I wish I had your patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbatum Nobile Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Well, VN, best of luck, I suppose. Thanks Storming. Support is very much needed and appreciated. One last question - how well-known is the UAN and how has it been received in general? Good question. The honest answer would be: not very well-known. Part of the problem is that the UAN is mostly comprised of aged people who still carry the family memories, but do not always have the energy to implement projects. The support of the younger generations is so much needed. But alas, most of the younger generation is more interested in Coca-Cola and BBQ rather than in the history, traditions and higher values. I do not want to sound too idealistic, but the fact is that with the death of family histories and traditions we irreversibly lose important and precious components of our traditional culture and history. I would even say we lose parts of our Armenianness. By opening the official website of the UAN we hope that the younger generations of Armenians around the world would have a chance to learn about this particular aspect of our past and maybe become more attached to our history and traditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbatum Nobile Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Exactly. Verbatum Nobile I wish I had your patience. Thanks brother Despite of being a "liar", "good for Tamerlane's BBQ", person that "must be exterminated", "self-proclaimed noblemen", ...I am trying to do my best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbatum Nobile Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Verbatim, welcome to HyeForum. Thank you Vava. I must apologize for not being able to reply to your questions today. They need more time and consideration than most of other comments. I promise to answer tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Perpetum Mobile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Perpetum Mobile Armen, you are a very valuable contributor to this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbatum Nobile Posted August 5, 2004 Report Share Posted August 5, 2004 Perpetum Mobile This is better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 (edited) ok VN, Oh, but you do claim. Your entire posture here right from the onset was - and still is - based on the presumption that you know the history of Armenia to the extend and are so aware of all the sins of the Armenian nobility that can make strong accusations of “lies”. You dont need to be an expert at Armenian history to know how the Feudal system operated. A system of legalised banditry. Commoners were like currency and a measure of a nobles wealth since the more commoners one had, the more taxes could be collected and the larger an army could be called up. In return for taxes and military service the gentry was to provide security and once again you dont have to be an expert in history to realise what a poor job the Armenian nobles did. For every Armenian noble hero you have named, you can be certain there were a hundred tiny tyrants taxing their dependants through their nose. Those that couldnt/didnt pay were physically punished or lost their livelihoods. To a commoner it DID NOT matter what 'nationality' (will get to this a little later) his lord was since they all spoke the same language: TAX. Your website claims the nakharars "greatly contributed to........the struggle of Armenians people for freedom". Freedom from whom? Their neighbouring nakharar? Foreign gentry? Or maybe, their own oppression? For all your bashing of Bolshevism, if I were a commoner I would much rather live in a Bolshevik state than a Feudal society..... Your website claims the nakharars "greatly contributed to the preservation of Armenian national values, promotion of patriotism" ie. nationalism. A notion that was not conceived until the French Revolution, or hundreds of years AFTER the Armenians nobles power was broken by the Mongols/Turks. 250 years ago, concepts such as patriotism and national values DID NOT exist, how could your ancestors possibly promote them? Khorenatsi’s “History of Armenia” was written because of the request and support from prince Sahak Bagratuni. you said it yourself - do you think a historian in his right state of mind will criticise his financier? or not glorify his deeds? And considering that all Armenian history is written by the church and gentry or on their behalf, what should we expect from these works? Thousands of churches, castles, bridges, inns and palaces scattered throughout Armenia, …who do you think sponsored their construction? constructions to strengthen the power of the lords - churches to unite their commoners, castles to add prestige and power, bridges to improve communications over their domain and so on..... PS. Im not a nihilist, a Bolshevik or Tamerlane worshiper Edited August 6, 2004 by Accelerated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Khorenatsi is the equivalent of todays Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell. A lunatic Judeo-Christian Zionist. He turned Armenian history into one big joke. Some of the lesser known historians are underrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbatum Nobile Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Oh, but you do claim. Your entire posture here right from the onset was - and still is - based on the presumption that you know the history of Armenia to the extend and are so aware of all the sins of the Armenian nobility that can make strong accusations of “lies”. You dont need to be an expert at Armenian history to know how the Feudal system operated. A system of legalised banditry. Three comments on that. First, one must be an expert - i.e., know the matter he is discussing very well - before claiming that something relating to the matter is a lie. Strong words require solid knowledge. Secondly, no one at the UAN advocates a return to the feudal system. There is not a single word on return to feudalism or aristocratic rule in the UAN documents. Moreover, unlike in today’s Polish, Russian or Georgian nobility unions, we even do not have a single monarchist among the members of the UAN. Thirdly, I agree that there were lots of shortcomings in the feudal system. Of course, among the nobles there were many honest and honorable persons, but could also be true bandits. This, however, is very much the case in all social systems. Moreover, if you have a look at today’s so called "democracies", don’t you see the same legalized banditry? I do not want to criticize other countries, let us just have a look at today’s Armenia. The vast majority of members of Parliament are mafia and gangsters. Ministers are corrupt and the policemen are more criminal than some of the criminals. What is this to you if not a system of legalized banditry? One can criticize any social system. Just the criticism itself should not be one-sided and aggressive but be more balanced and constructive. And, once again, if you read the goals of the Union of the Armenian Noblemen, you will find no mention of restoring feudal system. We only want to restore the best traditions and values of our ancestors. And I do believe that these are worth restoring. Your website claims the nakharars "greatly contributed to........the struggle of Armenians people for freedom". Freedom from whom? Their neighbouring nakharar? Foreign gentry? Or maybe, their own oppression? Freedom from foreign invaders. And the names and specific examples were given. Of course, you may see it all in the your negative perspective. But most of the Armenians would still agree that Hayk, Vardan Mamikonian, gevorg Marzpetuni or Davit-bek were fighting for independence and not for their own oppression. Please do not vulgarize someone else's heroic acts if for some reason their honest deeds remain incomprehensible to your mindset. For all your bashing of Bolshevism, if I were a commoner I would much rather live in a Bolshevik state than a Feudal society..... That was clear from your very first comments. However, under Bolshevism you would not have any chance to say half of what you have said here: the censorship would not permit. I also very much doubt that you would have your own computer with interenet access. But Bolshevism may be your choice and I respect that. I would only like to repeat that no one at the UAN plans to restore the feudal system. So the comparison between Bolshevism and Feudalism is pointless. Your website claims the nakharars "greatly contributed to the preservation of Armenian national values, promotion of patriotism" ie. nationalism. The “i.e.” thing comes from you and is a product of your imagination. Nationalism was not mentioned in the UAN documents at all. 250 years ago, concepts such as patriotism and national values DID NOT exist, how could your ancestors possibly promote them? This is yet another astonishing discovery on this forum. Read again the words of Hayk Nahapet or Vardan Mamikonian before the battles they fought and see if there is a sense of patriotism or not. You very much confuse notions and concepts: nobility with the restoration of feudalism, patriotism with nationalism. Khorenatsi’s “History of Armenia” was written because of the request and support from prince Sahak Bagratuni. you said it yourself - do you think a historian in his right state of mind will criticise his financier? or not glorify his deeds? And considering that all Armenian history is written by the church and gentry or on their behalf, what should we expect from these works? I would be happy to consider alternative first-hand sources of information regarding our history. But I cannot base my judgment on your or others’ guesses and assumptions. Thousands of churches, castles, bridges, inns and palaces scattered throughout Armenia, …who do you think sponsored their construction? constructions to strengthen the power of the lords - churches to unite their commoners, castles to add prestige and power, bridges to improve communications over their domain and so on..... By this approach you completely reject the history of Armenia and the value of the Armenian civilization. PS. Im not a nihilist, a Bolshevik or Tamerlane worshiper These were not accusations but comments based on your own words and comments. Your previous rejection of our cultural values well fits the commonly accepted definition of nihilism. I do not see any differences between your stance and Bolshevik ideology. Besides you expressed willingness to live under Bolshevik rule. As to Tamerlane, I still have an impression that you appreciate his barbaric deeds against Armenian noblemen more that all the best that was done by these noblemen. Again, I am not here to judge your position. I am here to make my position clear. And I still did not see your list of "bad Armenian nobility". Perhaps, because it appears to be much shorter than the “at-least-30%” that you were claiming. Being more balanced and mature in the judgment would allow you to avoid putting yourself into difficult positions in future. Even criticism – and especially criticism – need responsible wording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbatum Nobile Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Vava, a promise is a promise. Time to reply to your comments. First, I would like to thank you again for your hospitality. The only think I truly regret is the lack of time against so many different projects and ideas that need to be materialized in limited timeframes. In these circumstances, regrettably, I will not be able to contribute more to this topic in the near future. However, I very much hope that my comments and clarifications were helpful and explained some of the views that are expressed on the official site of the Union of the Armenian Noblemen. I have a question too - and I think i'm not alone, judging by the reaction of some members. You have mentioned several times in your posts, how your organization wishes to re-establish Armenian nobility in order to 'revive the roots and the best traditions and customs of our ancestors'. What are these 'best traditions'? Which customs would you like to revive? I will try to give a bit simplistic answer to your question, although in reality the situation is more complicated. Well, I guess I will not discover the wheel if I say that we all have some image of nobility. Despite some one-sided criticism, I believe that most of us see very clear association between the nobility and the concept of being noble. I would like to emphasize that in our materials on the site we speak not about any traditions and customs, but about the BEST ones. Honesty, sense of honor, good manners, good education, sense of duty, first of all patriotic duty – these are some of the traditions and values that we can see in our history. There was a special Code of Honor of the Armenian Warriors (particularly officers, most of whom were noblemen) that is almost completely forgotten today: http://www.artsakhworld.com/Armen_Aivazian...Eng/Part12.html Being respectful – even in discussions like this one – paying attention to good manners, being polite – these and some other good traditions and values are being replaced by modern arrogance, base culture, and vulgarization of morale. For centuries the Armenian did care about their family history. People could list many names of their ancestors and knew the good and bad legacy of their forefathers. The world has changed much since then. With globalization and pop mass culture the danger of ignorance and assimilation is becoming more than evident. In these circumstances the UAN is making its humble efforts in preserving diamonds from our past in order to keep our future generations as dedicated and responsible before their nation and Fatherland. Our nobility of the past often served our country by acting as military, and/or political forces. If you are withdrawing from the political to more artistic and purely historical domains, are there not already active organizations within these domains (that BTW, could use your efforts tangibly) rather than spending time/resources to revive artificial social structure? Please don't take this as being accusatory - I'm merely curious. Your wording is very acceptable, Vava No need to justify your curiosity or skepticism. I will start from commenting on the artificial structure. The UAN is just one of the hundreds of public organizations. Today in Armenia there are small (almost microscopic) political parties with grandiose nation- and world-saving goals. There are religious organizations with suspicious and questionable targets. There are jokingly unserious unions, such as the union of the beer-likers of Armenia. Believe me, on this colorful background the Union of the Armenian Noblemen does not look artificial at all. We have very modest but realistic goals, and – unlike most of these organizations – we do not focus on ourselves, but have the ultimate goal to deliver something to the Armenian society and to strengthen Armenia and Artsakh. Generally, just like Sasun puts it, time is the best judge. The Union was organized in 1992 and is active up until now. Any artificial social organization would cease to exist after a few years of meaningless activity. But the UAN has expanded greatly and is now trying to involve more young people into its activities. We have contacts with other noble unions in other countries of Europe and the CIS. As to the first part of your question, we do not withdraw from politics or military. Many members of the UAN participate in other political parties or have military ranks. But we do not see the UAN as a political or military structure. Armenia has too many political parties and adding yet another one would not make sense. Besides, the UAN does not have any political agenda or program except for serving for the good of the Armenian people. The same stands for the military domain. The UAN believes that its contribution can be valuable particularly in the realms of history, traditions and values. One more question, how do you plan on achieving your objectives as an organization (to serve the state & it's people), if you're entirely non-partisan, and not involved in the political and/or socio-economic development of the Repulblic? I always believed that the most realistic targets are not the ones with nation-saving wording but those that are modest and up to the ground. I have already mentioned two projects that we have: the restoration of historical monuments (particularly, the one in Aghdzq) and humanitarian ball for the children of azatamartiks. Humanitarian programs (such as balls, concerts etc) are pretty much the core of other European nobility organizations. We have other ideas, such as assistance to the new settlers in Artsakh or special courses for the students of the military academy etc. But these are yet to be materialized. It very much depends whether we will find other partners interested in these or similar programs. Finally, I hope that you are not a sensitive type - in due time, you will understand the humour of (and likely laugh with) members like Arpa, who bring an incredible wealth of knowledge (and wit) to our little forum. Once again, welcome. I am not a sensitive type at all when it comes to good sense of humor. For example, I very much liked ArmenSarg’s joke (see above). However, while joking on some matters, we still should not lose the grasp of reality. And today’s he reality is harsh. We lost 90% of our historical Homeland, suffered the worst ever Genocide in the history of humanity and today are struggling to survive economically, politically and physically. We have the most difficult tasks before us: to protect today's Armenia, to defend Artsakh and to build a society that would develop values and morale for the future generations to regain all that was lost by our collective mistakes. I believe every single Armenian, regardless the place of residence, political, religious or other views, has an honorable duty to contribute to the realization of these national goals. I am also confident that no future can be built without knowing who we were and what is the best legacy of our ancestors. And it is in revealing this legacy of our best traditions and values and promoting their re-establishment in our society that the Union of the Armenian Noblemen sees its mission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbatum Nobile Posted August 6, 2004 Report Share Posted August 6, 2004 Honorable gentlemen On this optimistic note I would like to thank you for your hospitality and everyone for the positive criticism and valuable suggestions that you had. I hope some time in future I will get another chance to discuss these and other matters relating to Armenia, Artsakh and Diaspora on HyeForum. Please accept assurances of my highest consideration. Et bonne chance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted August 7, 2004 Report Share Posted August 7, 2004 Moreover, if you have a look at today’s so called "democracies", don’t you see the same legalized banditry? I do not want to criticize other countries, let us just have a look at today’s Armenia. Im not a fan of todays 'political system' in Armenia, its far from being a democracy and there certainly is nothing 'noble' about it - I dont see how this is relevant to what we are discussing though. Freedom from foreign invaders. And the names and specific examples were given. Of course, you may see it all in the your negative perspective. But most of the Armenians would still agree that Hayk, Vardan Mamikonian, gevorg Marzpetuni or Davit-bek were fighting for independence and not for their own oppression. Please do not vulgarize someone else's heroic acts if for some reason their honest deeds remain incomprehensible to your mindset. ...and like I said more than 250 years ago it wouldnt have mattered to an Armenian commoner what language his lord spoke - since a lord is a lord, weather he is 'foreign' or local - they all spoke the same language: tax and mandatory military service and 'foreign' lords often did a better job of protecting their domains since the political hierarchy they belonged to was more centralised/secure eg. Ottomans. However, under Bolshevism you would not have any chance to say half of what you have said here: the censorship would not permit. Yes, but at least I would be able to and actually encouraged to learn how to read and write - there is no need for censorship when your underlings cant read, is there? I also very much doubt that you would have your own computer with interenet access. China is a communist state... The “i.e.” thing comes from you and is a product of your imagination. Nationalism was not mentioned in the UAN documents at all. From dictionary.com: nationalism - 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it 3: the aspiration for national independence felt by people under foreign domination patriotism - 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: nationalism] This online dictionary agrees with my 'imagination' By this approach you completely reject the history of Armenia and the value of the Armenian civilization. no, I am simply pointing out FACT. Again, I am not here to judge your position. I am here to make my position clear. yes, but you do so repeatedly..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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