Birthright Armenia

[Vayri7X]

I've been trying to reach the Birthright Armenia site for a couple of weeks. Did the organization fold or fail? Does it still exist? Does anyone have an alternate method of contacting BA other than the website ( re; phone, mailing address, alternate e-mail) ?

 

Also , has anyone done any work with this org? What did you think?

[sev-mard]

I just checked it out today it worked when I was surfing there earlier....

[Vigil]

I just checked it out today it worked when I was surfing there earlier....

 

Sevmard, in no way take this as a "offensive" post, but why were you surfing the site?

[sev-mard]

Actually Stormig made reference to it in another post saying that it had a dictionary and some Hayaren materials on it. Once I got there I saw what it's about. Very interesting program. You planning on using it?

[vava]

The site seems to be up and running. Are you sure you have the right URL?

Here's a working link.

[Vigil]

Very interesting program. You planning on using it?

 

Yes, it is a very interesting program, but unfortunately it will not drastically improve the situation in Armenia. If Armenians truly want Armenia to improve economically then they would have to actually relocate there. Armenians, do not want hand outs, they want jobs. It’s degrading them and will, eventually, affect our national identity in that we will lose our work ethnic and hope for a better future.

 

Furthermore, I do not have to go to my homeland in order to "connect" with it. In the Los Angeles area there are many Armenians from Armenia that are being alienated by the Diaspora for the sheer fact that they have not assimilated into the mainstream. How can I call myself an "asgaser" if I can not even relate with Armenians from Armenia? I can not and to try to fill that void by trying to convert an "otar" into an Armenian will in no way be an adequate substitute for an actual Armenian. Domestically, the social situation in Los Angeles has to improve in order for the Diaspora to relate with Armenia.

 

This is why I think it would better for the Diaspora to cut their ties with Armenia. I use to be a big proponent of this, but in the past couple weeks I am beginning to change my mind. The Diaspora continually presses for issues that in no way benefits Armenia and by doing so makes economic progress impossible for Armenia. For instance, the borders to Turkey must be opened for both countries to progress, but in order for this to happen the Diaspora must drop genocide claims.

 

Living outside of Armenia, but yet claiming ownership to her, is wrong. If anyone wants to "claim ownership" then by all means they should move there or else it becomes a slow death for not just Armenia, but the Diaspora as well.

 

The only way out of this predicament would be for the Diaspora to get there act in gear and do something progressive like investing in Armenia, but unfortunately no amount of "connection" with the motherland will convince many Armenians to invest in Armenia let alone move there. It is much easy to move up in the standards of living, but trying to go back to lower standards is not as easy. In fact the idea seems much worse then the actual plunge.

 

The fabrications of a “corrupt government” have been entirely exaggerated by the Diaspora in order to discourage the next generation from ever moving back. The entire idea of investing in Armenia is also labeled with this negative co-notation, which in my opinion is the equivalent of cultural suicide.

 

What is scary is that if you were to define an Armenian as a nationality then theoretically there are only 2 million Armenians left in the world. Anyone outside of the motherland is most likely going to assimilate, now, do not get me wrong, you can slow down the rate of assimilation, but if it is not you’re son then most likely it will be you’re son’s son that will assimilate. Since I do not want to be a pessimist I will state that the situation is not hopeless and inevitable, but certain sacrifices must be made by the Diaspora if they truly want Armenia to progress.

 

Instead the Diaspora in Europe and America resorts to forming technicalities of what an Armenian actually is in order to justify assimilation. They are beginning to make being Armenian the equivalent of being Jewish, which is no different then resorting to cheap parlor tricks.

 

I hope that answered you’re question Sev-mard?

Edited July 28, 2004 by Vigil

[Armat]

Yes, it is a very interesting program, but unfortunately it will not drastically improve the situation in Armenia. If Armenians truly want Armenia to improve economically then they would have to actually relocate there. Armenians, do not want hand outs, they want jobs.

Vigil

I disagree with your assessment. The programs have been up and running for years and they are excellent outlets to contribute and yes connect with one’s roots as well. You seem to attribute every effort short of your vision as inadequate. I think what they are doing is very different and more specific then solving Armenian’s problems.

[Stormig]

I hope that answered you’re question Sev-mard?

Somehow I think that Sev-Mard could have done with a "yes" or "no" answer...

[Vayri7X]

Wow.. I suppose it's the Mozilla browser or something. I hope it is up. Thx for the replies...*

[Nakharar]

I'm hearing about this for the first time. They probably based this on Birthright Israel, whose link I first discovered in the Jerusalem Post, a newspaper I detest but nevertheless continue to read.

[Vigil]

a newspaper I detest but nevertheless continue to read.

 

Ditto

[Vigil]

I disagree with your assessment. The programs have been up and running for years and they are excellent outlets to contribute and yes connect with one’s roots as well. You seem to attribute every effort short of your vision as inadequate. I think what they are doing is very different and more specific then solving Armenian’s problems.

 

It is not a long term solution and in no way is it helping the Diaspora from assimilating, while at the same time, it is not bolstering progression for Armenia.

 

Armat, there are roughly about 2 million Armenians left in Armenia and the population deflation is only getting worse. Add a negative birth rate in the mix and you are looking at extinction.

 

I live in Los Angeles, which means that I do not need to “connect” with my motherland when there are many Armenians from Armenia living in and around my block.

 

This is why the first problem the Diaspora has to address is the segregation among different sects of the Diaspora within their communities. If you do not believe go to you’re local high school and, immediately, you will notice different sects of the Diaspora sitting at different corners of the school yard.

 

I am not trying to be a pessimist, but I just feel that Armenia needs more then someone “reconnecting” with her, rather, it needs a vision and solid foreign policy.

[Boghos]

I don´t think there should be a debate on what the diaspora should or should no do. The reason is simple: there is not such a thing as a homogeneous, organized diaspora, but rather a complex system where people have migrated from Armenia to many other countries, and also within the diaspora itself. If you add to that the chronological differences in the migratory process of these different groups, noting that the groups are far from homogeneous themselves, you can hardly argue that they have necessarily much in common except for being Armenians. We do have some "representative" institutions such as the "parties" and their affiliated groups in Washington, AGBU and a number of other less important ones. These have influence but I don´t think they have the mandate to "sever" the diaspora ties with Armenia, quite the contrary in fact. Then you have the people that interact directly with Armenia: Kirkorian being perhaps the most well known and meaningful case. The various organizations that do excellent work such as Armenian American engineers, Land and Culture, various medical associations eschange programmes, and the list goes on an on. And the whole army of more or less known diasporans that in their own way relate to Armenia, travelling there, maintaining contact with people there, etc. So what is the diaspora in the sense we are discussing, but millions of people with very different backgrounds, interests, needs and outlooks in life that share a concern fo a country called Armenia but cannot express it in any organized manner to the extent that it really matters in terms of Armenia´s own agenda. Even Genocide survivors who in my view should be given honorary Armenian passports cannot get into their own country without a visa...what kind of a bad joke is that ?

 

Arguing for the "diaspora" to sever its ties with Armenian is simply not possible and would be in any case detrimental to Armenia. Not because the "hand outs" would cease. Nobody wants them, even though they might be necessary sometimes, but simply because this interaction is one of part of our wealth as a people. As to the foreign policy of Armenia being dictated by the diaspora, I think this is simply not the case. This issue is being used in Armenia to justify the protection of our own oligarchs and in Turkey for their "tougher then anybody else, Turanist stance" that is very appealing to the population at large. Open the borders and many of a charlatan would be silenced.

 

Just as a final note: if there is one "diaspora" group that has tremendous influence in Armenian internal affairs and obviously its foreign policy, these are the Karabaghtsis.

Edited July 30, 2004 by Boghos

[Teutonic Knight]

I like that it says Depi Hayq and not "hayastan".

 

Vigil is right. If you are not living and paying taxes in Armenia than you have no right to be associated with Armenia and issues related to Armenia.

[Armen]

I have studied China's experience with its diaspora and have come to conclusion that the Chinese have dealt with their diaspora in the most brilliant manner you can imagine. This once again confirms that nation's wisdom.

The P.R. China has special legislation, which regulates the Chinese diaspora's (Hua Qiao - like "Spyurq" in Armenian) status, rights and responsibilities, and the representation in the mainland China. PRC has two parliaments: one for the mainland China itself (called: People's National Assembly) and one for so-called Greater China (called People's Consultative Conference), including Hong Kong SAR, Taiwan, Singapour and the whole Chinese disapora of the world.

Although the decisions and resolutions of the second parliament are none binding and do not have a status of state law, the representatives democratically elected in Chinese diaspora worldwide have permanent representation in their motherland, they can speak to the nations leaders daily on various issues, make their voice heard. Most importantly, this mechanizm has developed the basis of understanding and trust among the leadership of the country and diaspora and ensured the security of diaspora's investments, effectiveness of its assistance.

[Boghos]

I have studied China's experience with its diaspora and have come to conclusion that the Chinese have dealt with their diaspora in the most brilliant manner you can imagine. This once again confirms that nation's wisdom.

The P.R. China has special legislation, which regulates the Chinese diaspora's (Hua Qiao - like "Spyurq" in Armenian) status, rights and responsibilities, and the representation in the mainland China. PRC has two parliaments: one for the mainland China itself (called: People's National Assembly) and one for so-called Greater China (called People's Consultative Conference), including Hong Kong SAR, Taiwan, Singapour and the whole Chinese disapora of the world.

Although the decisions and resolutions of the second parliament are none binding and do not have a status of state law, the representatives democratically elected in Chinese diaspora worldwide have permanent representation in their motherland, they can speak to the nations leaders daily on various issues, make their voice heard. Most importantly, this mechanizm has developed the basis of understanding and trust among the leadership of the country and diaspora and ensured the security of diaspora's investments, effectiveness of its assistance.

I was not aware of such mechanism. Thanks for bringing it up.

Edited July 30, 2004 by Boghos

[Teutonic Knight]

I have studied China's experience with its diaspora and have come to conclusion that the Chinese have dealt with their diaspora in the most brilliant manner you can imagine. This once again confirms that nation's wisdom.

The P.R. China has special legislation, which regulates the Chinese diaspora's (Hua Qiao - like "Spyurq" in Armenian) status, rights and responsibilities, and the representation in the mainland China. PRC has two parliaments: one for the mainland China itself (called: People's National Assembly) and one for so-called Greater China (called People's Consultative Conference), including Hong Kong SAR, Taiwan, Singapour and the whole Chinese disapora of the world.

Although the decisions and resolutions of the second parliament are none binding and do not have a status of state law, the representatives democratically elected in Chinese diaspora worldwide have permanent representation in their motherland, they can speak to the nations leaders daily on various issues, make their voice heard. Most importantly, this mechanizm has developed the basis of understanding and trust among the leadership of the country and diaspora and ensured the security of diaspora's investments, effectiveness of its assistance.

That's brilliant.

 

Such a forum will give legitimacy to Diasporan Armenians.

[Armen]

Yes, Boghos and TK I was shocked as well.

Moreover, the second parliament, apart from having diasporan deputies, has 8 democratic parties with various party platforms ranging from agrarian-rural to a party that defends diasporan rights in mainland. This parliaments status as I said earlier is only consultative at presemt. But I have no doubt that in some 20-30 years that's going to be the real parliament of China.

One more note, this mechanizm was invented and approved during Mao Zedong

[Boghos]

Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself.

Mark Twain

 

This is the problem .

[Armen]

Boghos, as soon as Armenians find something they start criticising it. The intensity of our skepticism toward ourselves is unbelievable. Moreover, Armenians are skeptical only towards Armenians

 

"Bring up any idea and I will find some smart saying by some important person about it" ArmenSarg, Hyeforum

[Boghos]

You are absolutely right, Armenians have this tendency which is a tragicomic one. Armenians are the original Anarchists in the scientific sense of the term.

[Armen]

Armenians are the original Anarchists in the scientific sense of the term.

 

That was a good describtion.

Our main struggle as a nation is with individualism. That's our national fate. And as we adopted Christianity the first, I would add that we picked this struggle up where the Jews left it in 1st century. I am sure that every Armenian is struggling with his inner anarchist every day. That's even inshrined in "Sasuntsi Davit".

[Sasun]

I have studied China's experience with its diaspora and have come to conclusion that the Chinese have dealt with their diaspora in the most brilliant manner you can imagine. This once again confirms that nation's wisdom.

The P.R. China has special legislation, which regulates the Chinese diaspora's (Hua Qiao - like "Spyurq" in Armenian) status, rights and responsibilities, and the representation in the mainland China. PRC has two parliaments: one for the mainland China itself (called: People's National Assembly) and one for so-called Greater China (called People's Consultative Conference), including Hong Kong SAR, Taiwan, Singapour and the whole Chinese disapora of the world.

Although the decisions and resolutions of the second parliament are none binding and do not have a status of state law, the representatives democratically elected in Chinese diaspora worldwide have permanent representation in their motherland, they can speak to the nations leaders daily on various issues, make their voice heard. Most importantly, this mechanizm has developed the basis of understanding and trust among the leadership of the country and diaspora and ensured the security of diaspora's investments, effectiveness of its assistance.

A Chinese friend of mine tells me the Communist party of China sends out agents to successful Chinese-diasporans in the US and other countries to convince them to come back and use their expertise in the homeland. These are mainly related to high-tech, computer/engineering, biotech jobs - things thare are hot sectors in China. But they don't just come and try to lure them back with nice words, they offer specific positions, specific business and prospects of growth. Although the money they offer is not higher and is often lower than what they get paid outside, some people go back out of patriotic reasons. This way China tries to compensate the brain-drain and gain economic momentum.

Edited July 30, 2004 by Sasun

[Armen]

A Chinese friend of mine tells me the Communist party of China sends out agents to successful Chinese-diasporans in the US and other countries to convince them to come back and use their expertise in the homeland. These are mainly related to high-tech, computer/engineering, biotech jobs - things thare are hot sectors in China. But they don't just come and try to lure them back with nice words, they offer specific positions, specific business and prospects of growth. Although the money they offer is not higher and is often lower than what they get paid outside, some people go back out of patriotic reasons. This way China tries to compensate the brain-drain and gain economic momentum.

Tha's right. They have been doing this through the last decade or so.

[ED]

You are absolutely right, Armenians have this tendency which is a tragicomic one. Armenians are the original Anarchists in the scientific sense of the term.

Maybe its due to the fact Armenia as a Nation had very little independence thru out her history, always subject to a foreign rule and judicial systems, and over time shaped what now appears “anarchy of a mind” “National psyche” we are a nation who does not believe in there own judiciary and government, be that Kocharian or Jesus Christ, Armenians would not give a benefit of the dought. It’s a phenomenon, but I believe over time we should see change in young genarations attitude.