How To Find God

[Sasun]

Butter in the milk

Author unknown

 

One day a young man came to an old and wise man who lived in a small

hut near the river. The simplicity there calmed the visitor's mind

and he enjoyed the presence of the wise man enormously. After a

while he asked the wise man if he is allowed to ask a question.

 

"Naturally, my son" replied the old man.

 

"Where can I find God?"

 

The holy man smiled. "That is not a simple question. Allow me to

think about it. Please come again tomorrow and I will answer your

question. And also please bring a cup of milk with you."

 

The young man was a little surprised, but he returned the next day

with a cup filled with fresh milk.

 

The holy man thanked him and poured the milk into his bowl. Then he

dipped his hand into the milk, and pulled it out again. He observed

the milk dripping down his fingers, wrinkled his forehead and

repeated the same procedure very seriously over and over.

 

The young man watched him with amazement, but he did not say

anything. He just wished that the holy man would stop doing this

silly thing and would start answering his question.

 

Again and again the holy man dipped his hand into the milk, pulled

it out and stared at his hand in disbelief.

 

Finally the young man could not bear it any longer.

 

"Guruji, what are you looking for in the milk?"

 

"I heard that milk contains butter," answered the holy man. "And

that is what I am looking for."

 

The young man could not hold it in any longer, and burst into hearty

laughter.

 

"But not this way! The butter is not seperated from the milk. You

have to stir the milk for a long time until the butter appears."

 

"Very good", said the holy man. "I think that is the answer to your

question."

 

And he quaffed the milk.

 

"Now go and stir the milk of your soul until you will find God."

Edited June 21, 2004 by Sasun

[THOTH]

No thanks...I can do without the extra cholestrol...

[Anileve]

Lovely story, it slightly resembles stories from the Buddhist teachings.

 

Here is one I very much like. A bit long, but worth the read.

===========================================

 

The Window

 

Two men, both seriously ill, occupied the same hospital room. One man was allowed to sit up in his bed for an hour each afternoon to help drain the fluid from his lungs. His bed was next to the room's only window. The other man had to spend all his time flat on his back.

 

The men talked for hours on end. They spoke of their wives and families, their homes, their jobs, their involvement in the military service, where they had been on vacation. And every afternoon when the man in the bed by the window could sit up, he would pass the time by describing to his roommate all the things he could see outside the window. The man in the other bed began to live for those one-hour periods where his world would be broadened and enlivened by all the activity and color of the outside world.

 

The window overlooked a park with a lovely lake, the man said. Ducks and swans played on the water while children sailed their model boats. Lovers walked arm in arm amid flowers of every color of the rainbow. Grand old trees graced the landscape, and a fine view of the city skyline could be seen in the distance. As the man by the window described all this in exquisite detail, the man on the other side of the room would close his eyes and imagine the picturesque scene.

 

One warm afternoon the man by the window described a parade passing by. Although the other man couldn't hear the band, he could see it in his mind's eye as the gentleman by the window portrayed it with descriptive words. Unexpectedly, an alien thought entered his head:

 

Why should he have all the pleasure of seeing everything while I never get to see anything ?

 

It didn't seem fair. As the thought fermented the man felt ashamed at first. But as the days passed and he missed seeing more sights, his envy eroded into resentment and soon turned him sour. He began to brood and he found himself unable to sleep. He should be by that window - that thought now controlled his life.

 

Late one night as he lay staring at the ceiling, the man by the window began to cough. He was choking on the fluid in his lungs. The other man watched in the dimly lit room as the struggling man by the window groped for the button to call for help. Listening from across the room he never moved, never pushed his own button which would have brought the nurse running. In less than five minutes the coughing and choking stopped, along with the sound of breathing. Now there was only silence ----- deathly silence.

 

The following morning the day nurse arrived to bring water for their baths. When she found the lifeless body of the man by the window, she was saddened and called the hospital attendants to take it away -- no works, no fuss. As soon as it seemed appropriate, the other man asked if he could be moved next to the window. The nurse was happy to make the switch, and after making sure he was comfortable, she left him alone.

 

Slowly, painfully, he propped himself up on one elbow to take his first look. Finally, he would have the joy of seeing it all himself. He strained to slowly turn to look out the window beside the bed.

 

It faced a blank wall.

[Sasun]

Good story Evelina. What does this man feel now?

guilt that he killed a good man?

pain and shame that he was too selfish too appreciate the other man?

regret that he no longer will hear the man telling nice things?

shock and disillusionment of the sad reality?

or all of the above?

[Anileve]

Sasun jan, I don’t know if this story was supposed to emphasize guilt, but my interpretation was a bit different. I perceived it as though to an optimist the world would always be a palette of colors, where as a bitter cynic will always be facing a “blank wall.” But I guess there are various interpretations of the story.

[Sasun]

Very true Evelina jan, I had missed that point. It is good that you mentioned it

[Anileve]

Perhaps because you are a pessimist? HA! Sasun jan, the story was really a test of a character that one is. I've looked for a more positive or a neutral aspect of the story, where as you've retrieved the less pleasant moral. And I am not religious at all, I guess I am not a complete sinner after all.

[Sasun]

Perhaps because you are a pessimist? HA! Sasun jan, the story was really a test of a character that one is. I've looked for a more positive or a neutral aspect of the story, where as you've retrieved the less pleasant moral. And I am not religious at all

Well, I thought I was an optimist

 

I guess I am not a complete sinner after all. 

 

You are indeed an optimist

[Sasun]

Speaking of optimists and pessimists, I like the following quote by Frederick Langbridge:

 

"Two men look out through the same bars:

one sees the mud, and one sees the stars."

 

It has more to do with seeing the reality, optimism is more realistic. How long does the mud last? but the stars will be there forever. So the point is, be wise and realistic, don't be looking at the mud while you can see the stars.

[Anileve]

Just to add to that, the quote below used to be my signature.

 

"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."

-- Oscar Wilde

 

That's exactly how I feel.

 

And another story:

=======================

 

It is said that when Buddha was first Enlightened he was asked,

"Are you a God?"

"No," he replied.

"Are you a saint?"

"No."

"Then what are you?"

 

And he answered, "I am awake."

[Anoushik]

Maybe for some people finding God is the equivalent of finding one's place in this world.

Otherwise, why is it important to find God?

[THOTH]

Maybe for some people finding God is the equivalent of finding one's place in this world.

Otherwise, why is it important to find God?

Fine for those requirring reassurances, guidance or what have you...but useless for those of us who just accept that not all things can be known - and are able to live with that without problem - and very unsatisfying for those of us who are not inclined to believe something just because others say it is true - and even worse when these others are making absolute claims about things that they clearly cannot know....

[Sip]

http://www.csps.minx.co.uk/epiimgs/411/god1.gif

 

When God showed up on South Park, this is what "he" looked like. I think it's different from person to person.

[Sasun]

Maybe for some people finding God is the equivalent of finding one's place in this world.

Otherwise, why is it important to find God?

Maybe? What is "maybe"?

 

And he answered, "I am awake."

 

People need to wake up one day or another. This is not a "maybe" but a sure thing. When you realize you want to be awake then you will not ask that question. But for now sleep

[Sasun]

When God showed up on South Park, this is what "he" looked like.

Yeah, Southpark knows it all

[angel4hope]

sasun- that was beautiful- finding God is something rather personal and one of the many long roads of life... i think "God" is within everyone, but different forms and has a different name... some call it faith, other cal it honesty and yet some choose to say they do not believe in God at all- but i am sure they have some sort of spiritual aspect they turn to at times-- they just do not see it as "God"

[Sasun]

sasun- that was beautiful- finding God is something rather personal and one of the many long roads of life... i think "God" is within everyone, but different forms and has a different name... some call it faith, other cal it honesty and yet some choose to say they do not believe in God at all- but i am sure they have some sort of spiritual aspect they turn to at times-- they just do not see it as "God"

Angel jan, I am glad you like it.

Finding God is the most challenging task and at the same time the most rewarding task. You are right, honesty, faith, all positive qualities are signs of true spirituality, one could say those are projections of the divine inside us. However, I am of the opinion that it is not enough having a little bit of those qualities that came without us making effort. We must develop and purify what we have and gain what we don't have.

The name "God" is not important, Buddha called it "Enlightenment" but it is the same thing only impersonal.

[THOTH]

Yes "Enlightenment" ...but what is it really?

 

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/hum_303/enlightenment.html

[THOTH]

In particualr I recommend this passage from the above link...

 

Michel de Montaigne

 

Michel de Montaigne, in a much more quiet and modest but ultimately more subversive way, asked a single question over and over again in his Essays: "What do I know?" By this he meant that we have no right to impose on others dogmas which rest on cultural habit rather than absolute truth. Powerfully influenced by the discovery of thriving non-Christian cultures in places as far off as Brazil, he argued that morals may be to some degree relative. Who are Europeans to insist that Brazilian cannibals who merely consume dead human flesh instead of wasting it are morally inferior to Europeans who persecute and oppress those of whom they disapprove?

 

 

This shift toward cultural relativism, though it was based on scant understanding of the newly discovered peoples, was to continue to have a profound effect on European thought to the present day. Indeed, it is one of the hallmarks of the Enlightenment. Just as their predecessors had used the tools of antiquity to gain unprecedented freedom of inquiry, the Enlightenment thinkers used the examples of other cultures to gain the freedom to reshape not only their philosophies, but their societies. It was becoming clear that there was nothing inevitable about the European patterns of thought and living: there were many possible ways of being human, and doubtless new ones could be invented.

 

 

The other contribution of Montaigne to the Enlightenment stemmed from another aspect of his famous question: "What do I know?" If we cannot be certain that our values are God-given, then we have no right to impose them by force on others. Inquisitors, popes, and kings alike had no business enforcing adherence to particular religious or philosophical beliefs.

 

 

It is one of the great paradoxes of history that radical doubt was necessary for the new sort of certainty called "scientific." The good scientist is the one is willing to test all assumptions, to challenge all traditional opinion, to get closer to the truth. If ultimate truth, such as was claimed by religious thinkers, was unattainable by scientists, so much the better. In a sense, the strength of science at its best is that it is always aware of its limits, aware that knowledge is always growing, always subject to change, never absolute. Because knowledge depends on evidence and reason, arbitrary authority can only be its enemy.

[THOTH]

More Thomas Paine....(concerning the Age of Reason..and enlightenment...)

 

http://www.deism.com/paine_essay06.htm

[THOTH]

John Adams, the country's second president: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

[THOTH]

Adrian Barnett :

 

Reasons I find religion offensive #17

 

I'm often told of the benefits of prayer. I'm told I should pray to thank God for my health, good job and wonderful family. If I pray, it seems, things will only get better. Presidents, monarchs and other world leaders pray to ask God to bless a decision, or a meeting, or a party, or a boat, or their country, or a war. ( How they are able to tell whether such a thing has been blessed or not, I am unaware. ) Many people also take it upon themselves to pray for nonbelievers such as myself, asking God to spare a little time in his day to fix my brain.

 

Some people are convinced that their God occasionally, or invariably, answers their prayers. He helps them with their career, or their drug problem, or their marriage. He finds their lost keys, reserves a parking space in town, or ensures that their team wins the game. He heals their cancer, helps their relative to survive the operation, and makes them look round just in time to avoid the truck.

 

If these things are to be believed, and these are the sorts of uses that the all-powerful Creator of the universe puts his omnipotence to, then He is either evil or stupid, or possibly both.

 

Every time you think your God gets you to the train on time, a child dies screaming somewhere in the world.

 

Each time God is called upon to "bless" a new armchair factory, a dozen people have the life crushed out of them in an earthquake.

 

God is apparently too busy watching your football game to prevent the banks of a river bursting and washing a village off the map.

 

He would rather "inspire" televangelists to beg for dollars than to "inspire" scientists with a simple and perfect cure for any of the incapacitating diseases that afflict humans. His time is better spent helping politicians solve refuse-collection problems than doing anything to stop his children persecuting and killing each other in his most merciful and loving name. Babies born in developed nations are called "blessings" and "little miracles", and prayers of thanks are spoken, distracting God from the women and babies dying all over the world where medicine and technology are inadequate to save them.

 

Children take their pets to church for special kiddy services, where they are assured that Bobby The Cute Hamster will indeed go to Heaven, whilst thousands of God's other creations are busily eating, poisoning, infecting and parasitizing human beings the world over. No doubt they will also get to Heaven as long as they are cuddly enough.

 

Daily, people call out to God before they are slaughtered by genocidal dictators, or die in the torture chamber because they were overheard making a joke about the president. God's time appears to be taken up by people thanking him for helping them with an exam, or for their unexpectedly meeting an old school friend.

 

The people suffering a slow, agonizing death will just have to wait, sorry.

 

Why don't I pray to God, to offer thanks, or ask for help, or just to chat? Because I do not believe there is a God to hear any prayers, let alone answer them. If there is a God, and he chooses to hear the trivial prayers of the healthy and well-off above the screams of the dying, then he must be a monster worthy of neither respect nor worship, but only contempt from any civilized being.

 

No, I will not pray to your God - I wouldn't wish to interrupt his busy schedule of key-finding and game-blessing.

[THOTH]

The Catholics are after you Sasun...

 

 

Catholics urged to fight off New Age religions

 

19.06.2004

By PETER POPHAM

 

Catholics from more than 25 countries have been in Rome this week to hammer out a strategy for combating the threat posed to Christianity by "New Age" religions and fads.

 

"Astrologers believe that the Age of Pisces - known to them as the Christian age - is drawing to a close," explained an exhaustive report on the New Age produced by the Catholic Church last year.

 

And as priests around the world watch their congregations die out and dwindle away through boredom or plain disbelief, the church believes the moment has come to fight back.

 

Monsignor Peter Fleetwood, one of the authors of that report, said those at the closed-door conference include priests and lay-people from Latin America who are "worried they can be pushed out by something that has come from abroad", from Asia where "a lot of traditional religions are reviving".

 

But for Fleetwood the greatest challenge may be in England and North America, "where the New Age began ... and where it has become such a part of everyday life that we don't notice it". That makes it harder to attack, he says. "Where one sees a threat, it's easier to battle it."

 

This enemy has dozens of heads: the version of the Jewish Kabbalah espoused by Madonna, the Enneagram personality-reading cult, ancient Egyptian occult practices, Sufism, the lore of the Druids, Celtic Christianity, medieval alchemy, Renaissance hermeticism, yoga, Zen Buddhism, and many more.

 

And despite the rank exoticism of so much of it, it is also the Enemy Within.

 

As the report acknowledges, "In Western culture, in particular, the appeal of 'alternative' approaches to spirituality is very strong. New forms of psychological affirmation of the individual have become very popular among Catholics."

 

Under the liberal dispensation of Pope John XXIII and the Second Vatican Council, intrepid Catholic missionaries explored the religious traditions of lands where in the past their task would have been restricted to converting the heathen.

 

In Japan, one Jesuit missionary became a Zen Buddhist roshi ("master"), without ceasing to be a Christian priest, becoming a reverse missionary, implanting Zen Buddhist ideas and practice in Catholic groups in Germany and elsewhere, where they continue to thrive.

 

But Pope John Paul II's church is far less tolerant about practices that the Pope's so-called "enforcer of the faith", Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, has dismissed as "spiritual auto-eroticism".

 

New Age is getting a grip on Christians because many are failing to find authentic spirituality in the church.

 

They are failing to find, as the report put it, "the importance of man's spiritual dimension and its integration with the whole of life, the search for life's meaning, the link between human beings and the rest of creation, the desire for personal and social transformation, and the rejection of a rationalistic and materialistic view of humanity".

 

But while one of the two "pontifical councils" involved in taking up the challenge is for "inter-religious dialogue", suggesting that the New Agers be dealt with on a similar footing to Muslims, Jews and indeed Anglicans, the Pope appears to see the issue as a simple matter of right and wrong.

 

"We cannot delude ourselves," he says, that "this return of ancient Gnostic ideas will lead toward a renewal of religion."

 

It is, he said, a way of distorting His Word, and is "in distinct, if not declared, conflict with all that is essentially Christian".

The time for a decisive battle is clearly fast approaching. And the message to the faithful in the report's conclusion is plain: quit "shopping around in the world's fair of religious proposals".

 

- INDEPENDENT

[Anoushik]

Maybe? What is "maybe"?

What do you mean what is "maybe"?

 

People need to wake up one day or another. This is not a "maybe" but a sure thing. When you realize you want to be awake then you will not ask that question. But for now sleep

What would make a person to "wake up"? God? He would suddenly give signs of His existence and prove that man, after all, is not alone in this universe and that there is purpose for the man's suffering? If so, why hasn't He acted earlier and made sure that everyone is "awake"?

[Anileve]

Anoushik jan, God is a subjective entity in my opinion. You can pretty much give it your own definition, since no one has a clear idea of what or who God really is. All I know is that I don't know, in that I believe...agnostics in my case. The story of Buddha I posted speaks of that. It is what you have mentioned in your question, for some people finding God is finding one's own place in life to find a purpose; for others it is God but essentially meaning the same thing, although they refuse to leave it so undefined. It's much easier for some people to relate to the unknown if they ascribe it a certain image, in other words to somehow humanize God. That's why you'll notice many people feel closer to Christ than to God directly, because Christ was in a human form, he suffered he was among people. Considering of course he really existed. I am just really perplexed why people can't just accept the unknown without giving it some name that identifies that belief.