TheArmenianPirate Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 This is a long piece, those that will whine afterwards about its length would be better off heading over to the cooking threads, they are shorter. For everyone else, your time is appreciated. Well you obviously got issues where some black person must have done you wrong because you responding with edged sword when I approached with with nothing of the like. As for the old statement about prositution in Armenia that you obviously haven't forgotten, look it up on this forum, because it was here that i was turned on to that and first heard it. Ah Yes, how easy it is to quickly toss out the old “a person of XYZ background must have done you wrong, hence you speak ill of me” card. Why, am I not surprised to read this? Right after reading Vigil’s post I knew you couldn’t resist bringing up that crutch excuse in your response instead of actually responding with a valid retort. Furthermore, I’m not surprised the BANDWAGONING that takes place the minute nonsense accusations of “racism” are brought up, all the social pacifists jump on board rather than actually replying with a retort that would hold water against the things Vigil mentioned. I’m not going to deny the fact that Vigil is angry and at times speaks extremely bluntly, but the content of what he states still is valid, regardless of the tone, inflection, and method of delivery that content. Do you not understand that not I, Vigil, nor any Armenian with any self-worth for his/her lineage really cares how you made your approach? No one is accusing you of anything negative, nor are we looking down on you in any way. Your heritage as a black man is great, wonderful, and unique; it’s also riddled with struggle which I along with other Hyes respect. HOWEVER, the same can be said of MY culture, even more so than yours NOT because mine is “better” but because it has sustained itself for orders of magnitude longer than yours through pressures that only a Hye can truly appreciate and wholeheartedly understand. While the black man’s history and heritage is in its infancy, that of an Armenian has endured for CENTURIES through so much strife, bloodshed, and hardship that our survival is a miracle in and of itself, we have also lost so many great men/women that dedicated themselves to an ENTIRE people, and intermarriage will bring MY lineage, heritage, and culture to it’s twilight or perhaps it’s end if it is simply allowed to blend in with yours, not too mentioned taint the work of all those that have DIED so that I can retain my ethnic sovereignty; DO YOU COMPREHEND THIS? Do you actually believe that I or many others will stand idly by and allow this to happen through the tolerance of intermarriage merely because it is the “politically” or “socially” correct thing to do according to the standards of globalization and ethnic blending? Of course NOT! Maybe for an African-American, who’s ethnic stability and survival is NOT at all threatened through the dwindling of his kinsmen’s population this is not a big deal, but I and other Armenians DO NOT have the luxury of such stability yet; THUS, we must make EFFORTS as Hye men and women to keep our lineage proliferated by NOT getting involved in inter-marriages. YOU my friend, regardless of how noble your romantic intentions, hinder those efforts, whether you’re doing it consciously or just by the circumstance of “falling for a girl”, it DOES NOT MATTER, you’re creating a hindrance never the less, do not try and deny this through justifications of “I love her”, “I’ll take good care of her”, etc, etc. Whether your personal character as an odar is good or bad, it still does not change the ABSOLUTE FACT, that beyond your union with a Hye female or vice versa, the Armenian lineage will just a bit smaller and thus less potential will be available for lineage proliferation. It’s a simple statistical fact, 10 Hye couples are better than 9, that’s it. And if that number is continually tolerated in its decrease, eventually, Armenian lineage will cease to be; it simply ASTONISHES me how difficult it is for you or those that are in denial of this fact to see this in all its simplistic clarity! On a census card, THERE IS NO check box for mixes, on the socio-political stage THERE IS NO check box for mixes, during the recognition of national rights of a group of people THERE IS NO RECOGNITION FOR MIXES! Understand this in all of its absolute nature. The point here is not how an odar such as you approaches, interacts, or intermingles with a Hye woman or man. The essence of this debate is the fact that your intermingling, as an odar with a Hye woman or man, REGARDLESS of how noble, worthy, well meant, etc, etc, it may be, DOES NOT and WILL NOT benefit the cause of Armenian preservation in ANY manner. To preserve ourselves as Hyes, it is not merely enough to preserve “the spirit”, or the “language”, or keep track of our historic past the way some of the pacified minimalists continually insist. BEFORE we even begin to preserve ANY of those aspects about ourselves, we MUST begin at the CORE, the BASE, and the ESSENCE, which is the union between an Armenian girl with an ARMENIAN boy, NOT an odar boy or girl; THAT folks, will in turn magnify and increase by many magnitudes the chance/opportunity to preserve our other important links to our identity, our LINEAGE, and the multitude of other aspects of Armenianism. The union between a Hye woman with a HYE man is the ROOT of everything else that will then be possible to preserve including our history, language, spirit, traditions, and culture. When an odar, such as Sev-Mard, for WHATEVER reason decides to step into our circle he is certainly welcome by me and other Hyes, BUT when you form a union with an Armenian girl, the root for that particular woman is cut off, the lineage is DESTROYED. Regardless of how well that woman’s children speak Armenian, how well versed they are in Armenian history, etc, their historic lineage and ties to the Anatolian people known as Armenian is severed for good, they ARE NOT, and CANNOT be considered as a person of ARMENIAN descent; at best they can and ARE considered as a person of HALF Armenian and HALF African descent. I’m sitting here writing this out and my God I’m blown away at the sheer IGNORANCE and STUBORNESS some of you display regarding this VERY SIMPLE notion of what it means to have distinctness in Armenian lineage, heritage, cultural definition, and how to go about maintaining that distinctness merely because you would LOVE NOTHING more than to rid yourselves of the Armenian responsibility of actually showing effort to create a union with a Hye male/female rather than an odar as a lover. They say ignorance is bliss, but some of you have gone so overboard that you’ve tapped this bliss dry in the proverbial barrel. Wake up. For one I don't tell Armenians how to live, and for to you have made many comments on black, 'africans' lives and practices, so please remember what you've said when making new comments. I know more than to tell people of whom I'm not a part of how to live their lives. Check my words and see if I ever told Armenians how to do anything. No you have not told any Armenian how to do anything, nor could you as long as Hye brothers and sisters like me exist, our people, children, men, women, way of life, culture, heritage, rights, and lineage is under an ever vigilant watch. No Armenian or Half-Armenian needs ever to worry about being threatened in any way ever again, thankfully, the 20th century made sure to forge young, astute, and determined Hyes. As the 21st century moves forward, I represent the future, I’m not the Dashnak with the gun, nor am I the Intellectual that can only write about the things he/she COULD HAVE prevented through some action, I’m a blend of both these sects whenever any situation dictates. If there is social transgression made against Hyes, I will respond verbally; whenever a written manifesto is created against Hyes, I will respond with my writing, and if any odar dares make physical threats or ethnic slurs such as “dirty Armo”, I will grind them beneath my heels in any club, bar, or social event; they WILL learn to respect my heritage, lineage, and culture the way I respect theirs. There are many like me out there and those that are not yet slowly are beginning to understand their own self-worth as Hyes and the importance of maintaining that identity. The problem has been that many individuals are afraid to be ethnocentric or have nationalistic pride because weak minded socialites and some odars such as yourself use bandwagon type persecution to make it seem like Armenian pride is in some form “racist”, “un-cool”, “not modern”, “not-trendy enough”, “not pop-culture enough”, or “ignorant”; when in fact it is NONE of these things, NOR is it a “double edged sword” the way you imply it to be. And in the process of doing this, these very same socialites arm odars such as yourself with the notion that we as Armenians, in the face of our population and survival being threatened, should be accepting and “open-minded” about the notion of our men or women inter-marrying. And EVERY time someone says “inter-marriage is wrong if we’re to survive”, they are quickly replied to with nonsense crutch excuse responses such as “you’re ignorant” or “racist”. Tell me ladies and gentlemen, WHO really is the ignorant individual here? The person that whole-heartedly recognizes the fragile state our lineage/heritage/culture is in and the importance of maintaining the basis of all that by making efforts NOT to inter-marry and expressing to others VALID and LOGICAL reasons why it is important for Hye/Hye unions to be maintained for our people’s survival? Or is the ACTUAL IGNORANT individual the one that DOES know VERY WELL the fragile state of our people’s linage/culture/heritage and also knows how rich and wonderful it is, BUT STILL chooses to turn a blind eye to it and chop everything off at the roots by eagerly believing that the “grass is greener” on the odar side and ultimately inter-marrying? The answer is obvious, the former individual sees things for what they ARE and knows what must be done to create positive gains despite his own persecution by the masses, this is not ignorance, it is known as COURAGE, something some of you know NOTHING about, but you will soon LEARN. The latter individual is in fact the IGNORANT one, he/she lacks a spine and has low cultural self-esteem, such an individual has very little self-worth as an Armenian, he/she thinks that by expressing anything Armenian during any social activity is “ahmot” in the context of “un-cool”. You talk to people like this in makur Armenian and they continually respond in English as if responding in Armenian is in some manner “ahmot”; yet within the same breath these very same individuals can easily emulate “thug-life” rapper antics without reservation, I can’t stress how PATHETIC this is to bare witness. If you’re one of these individuals then I whole heartedly pity you, because you are nothing but a PUPPET of the media and pop-culture, television says “jump” and you respond with “how high”. These Hyes are easily influenced, dominated, and will be quick to turn his/her back on Armenian lineage/heritage/culture through the act of inter-marriage due to low self-worth as an Armenian being programmed into them through others that are suffering by the same symptoms, it’s a viscous cycle. My own investigations into the matter have lead me to source of such behavior, which is lack of knowledge. If you don’t know exactly what it MEANS to be Armenian, how you have CONTRIBUTED to the world, what you have EXPERIENCED as a people, and how critically you tie into the world historically when compared to other ethnic groups, how can you possibly have the self-worth necessary to properly value your identity? You cannot. And how’s fault is this lack of knowledge in those Hye youth that are neglectful of their own Armenian ties? It’s ALL of OUR faults, beginning from the parents of such individuals that are far too busy with financial greed all the way down to some of those on these boards that actually promote the “whatever” attitude into some of our younger forum members. To some of these members, everything is a joke, an opportunity for sarcasm, a chance to be an attention whore, or simply a moment in time to rid themselves of their own guilt for being careless by bringing other Hyes into the abyssal vacuum of carelessness towards Armenian lineage, heritage, and culture. As a side-note, I’ve noticed that women are especially prone to the odar allure inherently because the notion of “romance” while wonderful, at times acts to blind them to the destructive nature of inter-marriage and the severe social, emotional, and stigmatized effects inter-marriage will have on their mixed children. I’d like some of the women to comment on this notion with their perspective of it. Anaheet (a little late but welcome to the forums never the less!) and Thoth are perfect examples of inter-marriage complexities. Both of them in some manner speak of how disgruntled their family life has been and how alienated they feel at times or have felt in the past with relatives, other Hyes, etc, etc. Many of these social negative symptoms that they have felt came from the inter-marriage that took place, yet they themselves would deny this, but deep down inside they know exactly what I am talking about. Even if their knowledge of their Armenian half is vast or up to date with things such as Hye history, politics, etc, etc, they still feel a need to connect with at least one half of their mixed lineage. So what if they chose the other half? How would that in ANY manner benefit Hye proliferation? It WOULDN’T! If someone like Anaheet felt her Odar half was more interesting than her Hye half, BOOM, she would be gone, that’s it for the Armenian portion of her lineage. Not every mixed child chooses to come to Hye boards and attempt to fill the void and confusion they have felt as mixed children due to the fact that they really do not belong to either side of their lineage completely. Many mixed children lose both halves of their lineage while growing up because they feel distant from both halves, which to some degree they are, thus they grasp the only culture they know, pop-culture. How can such a situation benefit Armenian preservation in any form? It CANNOT! Furthermore, with the fragile and critical phase in our Armenian population’s survival and progression, WHY are ANY of you willing to risk such a situation with your own children when instead by choosing a Hye lover, you eliminate any such risks completely or at the very least reduce such risks by significant amounts? While it is easy for some moderators or some other folks to create a “quick fix” solution by labeling everyone with fractional Armenian lineage as a “Hye” with regards to their lineage; THIS IS NOT the responsible solution ladies and gents; because it blurs the clear definition of our lineage and with such blurring it will also blur what we as Armenians can claim as our rights on the world stage. If we allow that to happen, you, me, and every other Hye on this globe is SCREWED on un-paralleled levels. The responsible solution is individual EFFORT to form a union with a HYE man or woman as one’s lover IF IN FACT you truly DESIRE to sincerely aid your people proliferate their culture/heritage/lineage the SAME WAY every other Japanese, Chinese, Jew, Gentile, Black, White, Pink, and Blue man or woman does but pretends like they supposedly do not make ethnocentric efforts. If you are so jaded and weak-minded that you would like to just drift through your life and “do whatever” or buy into pathetic notions of “as long as you love a person, it doesn’t matter who they are”, then by all means do so, the end won’t be pleasant I assure you, because inter-marriage is a very serious issue and it DOES matter, but other ethnocentric odars that are out to gain power, status, and position for themselves would LOVE for you folks to think that it does not matter like good little sheep. The world is not the ideal place many of you would love to believe it to be, at least NOT YET, and until it becomes such a place, it is best for you to attempt to create some basic self-worth for your own Armenian lineage/heritage/culture instead of PATHETICALLY believing or envying an odar simply because that odar’s culture is having its 15 minutes of fame in the mass media and pop-culture. Being young, modern, intellectual, etc, etc, is all great, The Armenian Pirate is also all of those things and more, but also remember to BE and STAY who YOU ARE as a birth right, and that is ARMENIAN. Regardless if you live in the U.S., Europe, or anywhere else in the world, remember that you’ll always be a guest on those lands, more specifically you will be the odar on French, Spanish, American, or any other land that is not called “Armenia”, so don’t be so quick as to lose sight of your own lineage as a Hye, because non-Hyes will never lose sight of the fact that you’re Armenian and not one of them. The American population is 40% black, as of when? If you're counting all non-whites maybe, but last time I checked blacks as a group were below 20% easily. Who cares what percentage of Americans are black? The obvious point Vigil was trying to make is that WHATEVER the percentage may be, when calculated, it dwarfs the Armenian statistical worldwide census population by several magnitudes. Thus, his point being, that when there is inter-marriage between an African-American and someone of another ethnic group, it is FAR LESS damaging to the efforts of lineage preservation of African-Americans VS when an Armenian individual inter-marries, it is extremely damaging due to our already small numbers worldwide. In essence, it’s not a big deal and by no means a threat to the survival of blacks as a lineage and a people when inter-marriage occurs within them, but for us Hyes, IT IS A VERY BIG dent in the efforts to create a positive population growth in order to preserve Hye lineage, which ultimately allows for the preservation of our heritage and culture. Instead of realizing this VERY OBVIOUS point Vigil was trying to make, you’re anally hung up on correcting his census “guestimation”, stop making trivial retorts in an attempt to distort the logic that is being attempted to be conveyed. I'm not on a mission to steal your women, I met one, fell in love with her and from her began to really learn about Armenians, the genocide & history. No one is trying to replace you, but you're in such obviously pain I guess someone may have already replaced you at some point in time in your life. I'd say you'd have more to worry about with your men vs. your women when all of my hye male friends who I knew before I met my girl, have never dated a hye girl in their life. There are all kinds of things going on and you're simply reducing everything to hye - odar. Not everyone is involved in a conspiracy to destroy your race, as much as you'd like to believe that is so. Tell me, why shouldn’t Vigil be in pain or frustrated? Why shouldn’t he be concerned as an Armenian about the danger that odars pose to the survival of our Armenian lineage, bloodline, and heritage? Do you know for HOW LONG, HOW MANY individuals have bled or suffered simply to keep that lineage alive and healthy for nearly 4000 years? Of course you don’t, you’re NOT Hye, and you never will be. If for every time an African-American intermarried, a black man or woman somewhere else was put back into slavery, I’m sure you would be EVERY BIT as outspoken against inter-marriage as well as what is happening to your lineage and heritage as Vigil is; because at that point your own black lineage and culture would be in danger. Right now, your numbers are in the tens of millions and growing, so you sit there smugly blowing hot air out of every orifice with accusations of “extremism” towards Hyes like Vigil simply because they speak out about the REALITY of intermarriage and how it WILL affect Armenians in a negative manner. You also use bandwagon techniques with socialite statements such as “we’ll all be merry and drink beer at my house” to pacify those Hyes that have a low level of pride/self-esteem for their own identity as Hyes and are weak-minded as well as feeling no shame in persecuting a fellow Hye such as Vigil that is speaking out for THEIR OWN survival as Armenians and the survival of their own Armenian lineage. As far as those Hye guy friends of yours are concerned, it’s pathetic that they feel the need to seriously date odars. In fact, I will go as far as saying that it is self-defeating for any Hye, man or woman, to get seriously involved with an odar; because our women are some of the most beautiful, intelligent, and wonderfully sincere/homely women in existence. Why settle for Helen of Troy when I can have Aphrodite herself? This is the type of mentality that needs to be realized by those young Armenian men that are so busy looking into the other side of fence much like some of our women do. Our women are great, in fact they are more than great, they are brought up with certain qualities that are lacking in many pop-culture dominated women these days. That is why odars such as you fall so quickly for them. They have many qualities that are lacking in many of today’s cultures, that is why when an odar actually dates a Hye for the first time, they are so quickly enamored by the values and qualities that they once thought were long gone in today’s world in both sexes. Our men are men among men, those friends of yours need to realize this and grab the nearest Armenian girl and have a great time together instead of drifting apart, or even worse, allow an odar to try and fill that void. An odar will never fully understand what it means to be Armenian or to have the Armenian spirit as well as value the Armenian lineage. Nor will they ever truly bleed or make efforts for my people should the time come for such efforts, and most importantly, they will end up producing children that are permanently detached from the lineage known as Armenian and at best can only be called half-Hye. So how are these facts in ANY way beneficial for Armenians and why should they passively be tolerated? Should I or other Hyes sit back twiddling our thumbs about these matters just because it’s the “socially polite” or “politically correct” thing to do? Of course not! These facts are not beneficial, never will be, they also should not be tolerated if we’re to survive, and will not be tolerated! Sure, I’ll be the first to confess for you all, it’s great to see an odar learn about my culture, heritage, history, language, etc, etc, but the second an odar dilutes my lineage through intermarriage, it completely undermines any effort I may be making toward preservation of Armenianism; because true preservation at its essence is not merely with knowing facts about one’s culture, but rather, also preserving the bloodline/lineage of that culture in order to maintain its integrity among other lineages of the world such as French, Jewish, Italian, etc, etc. Thus an odar cannot expect those Hyes that truly care about Armenianism as a whole to smile and knock back beers with you when they see you as an odar seriously involved with a Hye, because ultimately regardless of how great or noble your intentions may be romantically, an odar’s romantic involvement with a Hye will be only detrimental to true preservation efforts. This fact cannot be disputed, some folks on these boards just like to put this on the back burner of their minds because when they acknowledge it as the fact that it is, their own guilt cannot be appeased. Sadly, some of the previous generations of parents have various stereotypes that they have passed along to their children. Some wives that have come from very conservative families tell their daughters to date odars such as you until it is time for marriage, then opt for the Hye guy. This of course is to maintain the illusion of “makur”, which is a preposterous notion to begin with. This seed implanted in the heads of some of our women of course works great for you as an odar, but for the Hye male, this notion acts as an additional barrier for him to overcome. Essentially, he has to convince a Hye girl, which he would like to have a great sexual/romantic relationship with, that it is “okay”, that they can evade community persecution. You, as an odar, don’t have to go through this with a Hye girl that comes from parents that have brainwashed her with ideas of “when to date a Hye and when not to”. On the other side of the mirror, a Hye girl has to be wary to a certain degree with certain Hye men that also come from very conservative families that have taught them that if a Hye girl wants to have a sexually active relationship, she must somehow be of low moral character or “not decent”; THESE are the type of Hye men that drive Hye women away from other Hye men that are very open minded and would like nothing more than to be a great lover for their Hye woman. Ultimately those women that become very wary and simply cannot get themselves to take that leap of sexual/romantic faith with a Hye male, end up dating the odar because inherently it is “safer” and things are kept on the “down-low” or “hush hush”. This is truly a pathetic scenario that does in fact take place with some Hye men and women, thankfully The Armenian Pirate is here to shatter and decimate such notions. Hye guys and girls should be allowed to have obvious sexual relationships without having to worry about community disdain or persecution. In my many travels, I always find it amazing how within a Hye community, an odar such as yourself dating a Hye can be tolerated on a sexual level when it is BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that this very odar/hye couple is involved in any form of sexual escapade possible, yet when a hye/hye couple even remotely tries to achieve the same type of open sexual relationship, they are quickly surrounded by family and community members like hawks while being looked down upon. It’s not a wonder ladies and gentlemen, that some Hye women and men feel intimidated or hesitant to approach one another with carnal sexual intent in order to form a union. There must be a change, and that change begins with all of you as Armenian youth. You must overcome and shatter the ridiculous stereotypes that exist within the walls of our communities worldwide regarding matters of male/female sexual relationships. I’m not implying that lack of sexual self-respect is not important for men and women to follow, but at the same time on the other side of the mirror, extreme sexual repression which drives youth away from one another and into the beds of odars is not correct either. Some REALLY jaded wives tell their daughters that it is “okay” to marry an odar, this is FALSE, no it’s NOT okay, at least not if you give a damn about your own identity and those of your own children. These wives feel that their daughters will fall prey to the same stigmas and repressions they had to endure as women, so they steer their daughters away from young Hye men. They don’t realize that this is not the case, that in fact, things have changed significantly since their own days as young girls and a lot of Hye men have a very open-minded outlook regarding relationships with our beautiful Hye women. But convincing these wives that their daughters will not necessarily go through the same repressions as they did becomes a difficult matter, thus their negative outlook toward young Hye men is carried into their daughters unchecked. It’s the daughters’ responsibility to actually bring their mothers “up to speed” regarding the Hye male/female romantic dynamic instead of buying into what their mothers preach about the “dangers” of having a sexual relationship with a Hye guy and how it will affect the illusion of “makur”. Come on ladies, get to it! Of course then we get into the matter of what else is “okay” if a young person is in their “whatever” mind-set, at this point it doesn’t simply end with inter-marriage, many other obvious grievous errors also seem to become “okay” because a young Hye has been conditioned and jaded by pop-culture into that unique “whatever” mentality. There is a complete lack of critical thought, in fact, much of any thought for that person is governed by television, pop-culture, and other forms of conditioning because their parents are too busy to attend to their kids properly because they have become slaves/servants of their own mortgage or car payment. Even on these boards this is apparent, some individuals here act EXACTLY according to pre-set molds that are expressed in pop-culture. It’s so blatantly obvious sometimes that I can almost predict what some forum members will say in response to different topics; it’s almost as if there is absolutely no sense of self as an Armenian for some of these members outside of the realm of what conditioned notions have been shown to them through the media. This is EXTREMELY frightening to me but never at all worrisome to the victims of the media’s onslaught, which I have called the Media Children in the past. The reason they do not worry is because one cannot have any concern about the danger around them when part of the danger is the conditioning of being blind to that very same danger, it’s an ingenious method used by media to pacify the Armenian youth into the conglomerate known as “globalization”. Capitalism, when allowed to attain the status of one’s own master instead of merely being a tool for personal success, is the perfect weapon in destroying our culture, values, and lineage; but I’ll digress on this issue for now. Let’s move on with our current topic. Sev-mard, it’s easy for you and the little crew of band-wagon posters on these boards to quickly label Vigil with ridiculously short-sighted and nonsense comments as “racist”, “Vigil the odar”, or any of the other dribble you attempted to tag him with as your response to what he said in the past. You also falsely equate Vigil’s ethnocentrism as a Hye with racism, which is an absolutely incorrect assumption, sadly, mass media has done an excellent job of making one’s own deep love for his/her own culture/lineage be quickly labeled as “bigotry” or “racism”; your comments are living proof of this fact. However, facts are facts, and the fact is that in order for our populace as Hyes to thrive, EVERY SINGLE Armenian on these boards needs to realize that inter-marriage WILL NOT allow for this as far as our lineage, heritage, and culture are concerned. This is due to the fact that, with intermarriage, comes the dilution of Hye values, way of life, upbringing, kinship, faith, heritage, and lineage, these are things that have been sustained with blood, sweat, hard work, and perseverance for thousands of years by fellow Armenians. Yet you, as an odar, expect Hyes to just accept your waltz like disruption of our efforts because it is the “politically correct”, “modern”, or “socially correct” thing to do within the United States’ social system, suffice that I say you are wrong in your presumptions. Make no mistake about it folks, as bluntly as I have put it, intermarriage, in any form with any odar, IS IN FACT a disruption of Hye progression on this Earth. I wish I could say that there was another way, but there simply isn’t. Armenians cannot progress as an ethnic group by merely settling for the preservation of their history, political stance, and cooking recipes; their BLOODLINE and LINEAGE must ALSO be preserved in order for us as Armenians to retain our ethnic credibility, rights to lands, rights to restitutions, and the integrity of our cultural identity on the global socio-political stage; and we all know all this is impossible once intermarriage takes place between a Hye and an odar. A child that is of mixed lineages will not ever and cannot be expected to be as effective in preserving all that is Armenian throughout his/her life. This is because at the very basic root of their being, which is their lineage, they are only HALF Hye and thus will inherently suffer from the dilution of their identity and with each subsequent generation, the children and grandchildren of that Hye/Odar child will heed less and less importance to their identity as a fractional Armenian because they will in fact have a smaller and smaller connection to the portion of their lineage that is Armenian, this is a completely absolute notion and cannot be disputed. All of you must realize one very important notion. Regardless of what you do as an individual Hye, whether it’s being involved in groups such as ANCA, ASA, AGBU, ARF, Dashnaks, ASALA, etc, etc; helping other hyes, opening up Hye schools, attaining high ranking status as Hyes, gaining political grounds, lobbying for Hyes, becoming a millionaire, creating Armenian funds, WHATEVER you do as a Hye pales in comparison to the greatest contribution you can make for your own people, which is delivering into this world an Armenian child and infusing that child with the richness of the many facets of our people’s heritage and culture. This can only be done with a Hye lover and NOTHING else ANY Hye can do can exceed such a contribution, because true immortality is attained through one’s child. So if you sincerely would like to leave behind a powerful Armenian legacy regardless of whether you’re an atheist, spiritual, or heavily religious in nature; the greatest legacy is knowing that with your Hye lover, you truly contributed to the survival of your Armenian lineage by leaving behind a child that will carry on our people’s triumphs, struggles, heritage, values, and culture long after you’re gone. That same Hye/Hye child, infused with the love and desire to carry on our traditions, culture, language, and heritage can only do so if he/she is not marginalized with emotional, spiritual, and mental confusions about who he/she is on the global stage, and this marginalization can only be avoided by a child that is of a Hye/Hye marriage, not a Hye/odar marriage. Realize this, a child of Hye/Hye marriage is the single most powerful entity for our people’s survival in the 21st century; no 100 million dollar contribution for paving roads, ASA attendance, or charity donations can even compare. What contribution to one’s people can ever lay claim to be greater than the life essence of an Armenian woman and man in the form of a child? Nothing can be greater then this, my friends, nothing. These notions are absolute and cannot be disputed. They are difficult to accept by some here on these boards, in fact, I’ll go as far as saying that the “nay-sayers” to what I write would quickly retort with accusations of “one-sidedness”. They are right, what I have outlined is one-sided, it resides on the plane of truth and reality, that is the only side I stand on. Sadly, for some, even truth and reality are difficult to accept because when accepted, their own current situation quickly reveals itself to be the very anti-thesis of truths such as “only Hye/Hye marriage can insure Armenian preservation”. Thus, for such individuals that discover that their behavior is in fact a form of self-destruction, a dark cloud of guilt quickly looms over their heads, and instead of setting themselves free through the acceptance of truthful and factual notions of “to preserve, Hye/Hye marriage is the key”, they instead continue to deny it and lash out against those that have long since acknowledged these same truths with labels of “racist”, “bigot”, etc, etc; such accusations are the way of the blind coward, nothing more. It is time for all those in denial of these truths to make the realization that all the branches of preservation for our Armenia, our Hye lineage, and our fellow Armenians begin at one singular root point, the union of a Hye man with a Hye woman and the child that they bring into our world; this is where everything else having to do with preservation will branch away and aid our people, but it MUST begin with a Hye man and woman coming together to form a beautiful Armenian family, and no odar/hye marriage can claim on any level to being able to achieve this. It is time for all of you fellow young Hyes to realize all these notions for what they truly are, facts. To many, “Hell” is place of anguish, loneliness, lack of connection, or plainly a lake of fire with a horned-man torturing you for eternity. To me, “Hell” is a place where I cannot connect with other Hyes because they have completely forgotten who it is they are and what the name “Armenian” denotes with regards to cultural, heritage, and lineage. Hell, ladies and gentlemen, is a place where mine or your future kids feel lost and out of touch and in doubt with regards to their place on this Earth. They look around and see distinct unique cultures that their peers belong to and are so proud of, yet when they look within themselves they only find that they are “part this and part that” but not much of anything distinct as a whole with regards to their lineage. They can only make partial claims to their composite lineage because it is fractionalized as well as marginalized through the inter-marriage of their parents and they also constantly feel “not quite at home” with each portion of their mixed lineage. Yes, they are still human beings and part of the “human race”, but they do not belong to any group of ethnic people completely, and this will tug at their psyche all their lives, I have seen it happen with friends and strangers all around me that have gone through this. That to me is Hell. I wish all of you a great week. Love each other and take care of each other as Armenian brothers and sisters because no one else ever really has and most don’t plan on starting, not yet at least. -The Armenian Pirate TheArmenianPirateBroadcast@hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightOfArmenia Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 What in the hell? I'm the Armenian pirate! All my friends refer to me as that! My cell-phone message is "ahoy ahoy, leave a message!" My standard away message says "Aargh Matey!" I'm just shocked. It's like... what? LOL. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 While the black man’s history and heritage is in its infancy, that of an Armenian has endured for CENTURIES through so much strife, bloodshed, and hardship that our survival is a miracle in and of itself, we have also lost so many great men/women that dedicated themselves to an ENTIRE people, and intermarriage will bring MY lineage, heritage, and culture to it’s twilight or perhaps it’s end if it is simply allowed to blend in with yours, not too mentioned taint the work of all those that have DIED so that I can retain my ethnic sovereignty; DO YOU COMPREHEND THIS? Do you actually believe that I or many others will stand idly by and allow this to happen through the tolerance of intermarriage merely because it is the “politically” or “socially” correct thing to do according to the standards of globalization and ethnic blending? Of course NOT! This is about as far as I could read this. As images say more than words I'll contribute like this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Anaheet (a little late but welcome to the forums never the less!) and Thoth are perfect examples of inter-marriage complexities. Both of them in some manner speak of how disgruntled their family life has been and how alienated they feel at times or have felt in the past with relatives, other Hyes, etc, etc. Many of these social negative symptoms that they have felt came from the inter-marriage that took place, yet they themselves would deny this, but deep down inside they know exactly what I am talking about. No AP - I have no idea of what you are talking about...and I have never said my family life was "disgruntled" or such...nor have I ever felt alienated...not with my family..and not with other Hyes...I found no negatives relating to inter-marriage in my family...in fact I don't even consider it inter-marriage per se. I am somewhat regretful not having learned Armenian however...but thats just the way it was... People have the right to choose - fully - how they will live. You obviously don't understand that folks make choices for themselves and their families - to survive - to prosper - and this is how it always has been. Yes Armenain traditional culture is changing (if one can say such a thing - as nothing is static) and - like all traditional cultures in the world today - is under fire from the dominant Western culture...but I do not think that the Diaspora is the place to pitch the battle...Armenians from Armenia must decide to what degree they will cling to or continue with their culture... Oh yeah and - Damn Mudbloods! Don't you agree Malfoy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 People have the right to choose - fully - how they will live. It amazes me every day how people fail to comprehend this simple phrase. Thanks Thoth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaheet Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Anaheet (a little late but welcome to the forums never the less!) and Thoth are perfect examples of inter-marriage complexities. Both of them in some manner speak of how disgruntled their family life has been and how alienated they feel at times or have felt in the past with relatives, other Hyes, etc, etc. Many of these social negative symptoms that they have felt came from the inter-marriage that took place, yet they themselves would deny this, but deep down inside they know exactly what I am talking about. Even if their knowledge of their Armenian half is vast or up to date with things such as Hye history, politics, etc, etc, they still feel a need to connect with at least one half of their mixed lineage. So what if they chose the other half? How would that in ANY manner benefit Hye proliferation? It WOULDN’T! If someone like Anaheet felt her Odar half was more interesting than her Hye half, BOOM, she would be gone, that’s it for the Armenian portion of her lineage. Not every mixed child chooses to come to Hye boards and attempt to fill the void and confusion they have felt as mixed children due to the fact that they really do not belong to either side of their lineage completely. Many mixed children lose both halves of their lineage while growing up because they feel distant from both halves, which to some degree they are, thus they grasp the only culture they know, pop-culture. How can such a situation benefit Armenian preservation in any form? It CANNOT! Furthermore, with the fragile and critical phase in our Armenian population’s survival and progression, WHY are ANY of you willing to risk such a situation with your own children when instead by choosing a Hye lover, you eliminate any such risks completely or at the very least reduce such risks by significant amounts? While it is easy for some moderators or some other folks to create a “quick fix” solution by labeling everyone with fractional Armenian lineage as a “Hye” with regards to their lineage; THIS IS NOT the responsible solution ladies and gents; because it blurs the clear definition of our lineage and with such blurring it will also blur what we as Armenians can claim as our rights on the world stage. If we allow that to happen, you, me, and every other Hye on this globe is SCREWED on un-paralleled levels. OK, you've invoked my name, so I feel compelled to respond here. The problem was not that my father married an "odar." The problem was that he deliberately chose to not teach us the Armenian language. Yet at the same time, he taught us about what it is to be Armenian, about Armenian culture, Armenian history, etc. You can reject that or not- it's your choice. If my dad had wanted us to learn Armenian, it would have been a different story. My mom wanted to learn it. My dad didn't want us to learn it. Blame him for that, not marrying an "odar." I think Jews have a better idea. If you marry a Jew, your children are Jews. Why isn't it that way for us? If you marry an Armenian, your children are Armenians. Clear definition of lineage is BS. That's a nineteenth century ethnological concept with no basis in fact. Language and culture are more important than "bloodlines." Why do you think the Russians are so dominant? How many Russian speakers are ethnically Russian? Language and culture can be acquired. Seriously, you sound like you're trying to preserve some kind of royal family. (Another outdated concept.) Anyway, don't pretend to be speaking for me, since you're obviously not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaheet Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 No AP - I have no idea of what you are talking about...and I have never said my family life was "disgruntled" or such...nor have I ever felt alienated...not with my family..and not with other Hyes...I found no negatives relating to inter-marriage in my family...in fact I don't even consider it inter-marriage per se. I am somewhat regretful not having learned Armenian however...but thats just the way it was... People have the right to choose - fully - how they will live. You obviously don't understand that folks make choices for themselves and their families - to survive - to prosper - and this is how it always has been. Yes Armenain traditional culture is changing (if one can say such a thing - as nothing is static) and - like all traditional cultures in the world today - is under fire from the dominant Western culture...but I do not think that the Diaspora is the place to pitch the battle...Armenians from Armenia must decide to what degree they will cling to or continue with their culture... Oh yeah and - Damn Mudbloods! Don't you agree Malfoy? True! True! Loved the Rowling reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 Rant rant rant, rave rave rave... one would think there's a ranting, raving lunatic around... (!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 BTW, Pirate, I object to your narrow-minded and misdirected accusations at SevMard (amongts others) ingnorance or stubornness. He should be a model for all human being, regardless of ethnicity. If anyone has displayed ignorance/intolerance, it's you. I'm not going to comment any further, for fear of instigating yet another series of uncontrolled and quite uninspiring rants and accusations - I'm sorry, but you can keep your quest for racial purity for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheArmenianPirate Posted June 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 No AP - I have no idea of what you are talking about...and I have never said my family life was "disgruntled" or such...nor have I ever felt alienated...not with my family..and not with other Hyes...I found no negatives relating to inter-marriage in my family...in fact I don't even consider it inter-marriage per se. Yes, of course there has not been any negatives relating to the inter-marriage of your parents, in fact it was SUCH a SERENE inter-married environment that it prevented you from even learning how to speak, read, and write in Armenian, YES folks inter-marriage is great for preserving ourselves as Hyes! Seriously, let us set the sarcasm aside and reiterate just SOME of the “not so negative” issues that arose from the inter-marriage that took place within your family Thoth, as you described them in your own words in the original thread when you were describing some the things you experienced while growing up in a Hye/odar home, I particularly took notice of some of the notable things pertaining to this discussion, thus capitalizing them out: It seems you and I share something of our backgrounds. My mother is Armenian and my father mixed Northern European. My mother experienced much discrimination due to her color/ethnicity growing up and it affects her attitudes to this day (AND CAUSED HER TO DISUADE ME FROM LEARNING ARMENIAN - so like you I do not speak - and to this day she insists that I "be" American and forget everything about my Armenian heritage). She also EXPERIENCED the same sort of racist attitudes FROM MANY OF MY FATHER’S family - including from my GRANDMOTHER - who NEVER really ACCEPTED her as "white" - so i hear you. So after that quote, which is your own words describing the “wonderful” virtues of inter-marriage let’s recap a bit. You my friend, DO NOT speak Armenian, you DO NOT know how to write in Armenian, and you CANNOT read in Armenian. Within your household, you described in YOUR OWN WORDS, there was strife that pertained to the fact that inter-marriage occurred, and certainly it seems to have been a conflicted environment to grow up in for a child that is of two ethnic lineages/backgrounds. So with that set, you’re telling me that inter-marriage plays absolutely NO hindering role in the preservation of Armenian heritage, lineage, and culture? Outside of what you have read in books about the half of you that is Armenian, what in fact have you preserved my friend? My beautiful Hye language? Nope. My Armenian alphabet? Nope. My Armenian written word? Nope. The lineage that is directly connected to the people of known as Armenian? Nope, you are half-Hye and your children will be even less so. So tell me, HOW have you preserved anything for Armenians bud? I’m willing to bet that there is a significant chance that your real life name itself is not of Armenian origin because perhaps your odar parent may have opted give you a name that related to his/her own lineage/ethnic group. So again I ask you, how are all these facts that have stemmed from the decision by your parents to inter-marry NOT destructive to the survival and preservation of my Hye heritage, culture, tradition, and lineage. I regret that what I write upsets you and others like you, since you are the VERY mixed child that presents no hope for my people’s future in any way as far as preservation of heritage/culture/lineage is concerned because progressively your own children/descendants will inevitably be less in touch with their Armenian portion on all levels. I wish I could say that a mixed child such as you will be equally likely to carry on everything and anything that is Armenian because they feel an equal amount of affinity toward their ancient lineage as a child of Hye/Hye parents would, but this is not the case. Or that you have absolutely on inner conflict about the dichotomy of your ethnic lineage my friend, but this simply is NOT the case either regardless of how much you would like to deny it; and many of the individuals on this board will not admit to this out loud for various reasons; to some it is an ugly truth to some that they would avoid if possible because A) they are mixed children themselves or are involved with an odar on a romantic/sexual level and their guilt is sparked when they speak of such things, but it’s the truth never the less. If right now, the world governments for whatever reason said, those individuals that can claim right of ownership to Armenia through parental birth-right, you could easily be excluded with the technicality of being half-Armenian and half-odar, which you are; thus you would have no claim to those lands. And let us assume that even as a mixed child you were so motivated that you climbed to great political levels due to your love for your Armenian half. Ultimately with all the work you possibly may have accomplished, when push comes to shove, the opposing political forces could use such technicalities as your lineage to knock those like you out of the loop for things such as rights to Genocide restitutions, rights to land claims, rights to Armenian sovereignty, rights to Armenian political asylum, rights political oppression, and many other things out there. And please don’t respond with “that stuff doesn’t happen anymore” because it does, every single day. There is a political power struggle out there for land grabbing and erasing small ethnic groups unlike any other, it is done in different means these days, such as the dilution of distinct ethnicities/lineages using techniques of globalization. Many of you live in westernized nations and these things are screened incredibly well, it is the rule of the universe, the strong/majority crush and the weak/minority get crushed, but it can be avoided. Perhaps one of the few protections left for any ethnic group these days is the distinctness of their lineage on the world stage because it gives them political and historic relevance through the absoluteness of their maintained identity as Armenians, Jews, Japanese, etc, etc. When that distinctness is allowed to be diluted and stamped out, the protection if provided also disappears, all you self-proclaimed political aficionados and “intellectuals” on these boards surprise me with how blind and naïve you are to these facts about what goes on and how important it is to maintain the barriers of protection such as distinctness of one’s identity as a Hye. But perhaps by pulling the veil down on yourselves things become all the more comfortable, and like a drug, lifting that veil back up the light of truth becomes a difficult task, indeed. Thoth, I look at you and I don’t see anyone “bad” or “inferior” to any other person on these boards that may not be a mixed child with regards to your personal character, so don’t think that Thoth. On the other hand, I cannot just deny the fact that in the role that young Hyes need to play for our Armenian culture, lineage, and heritage to survive and proliferate, you as a mixed child, are FAR LESS effective for that role inherently due to your dual background which has led to the loss of many aspects/understandings that could have been more “Hye” in you had you been a Hye/Hye child VS mixed; your lack of Armenian linguistic knowledge being the first and most obvious of such things. Also, at the same time I’m not naïve to the fact that you do not speak Armenian, cannot write in Armenian, can not read Armenian, nearly everything you know of your Armenian half comes from external sources, there are very simple traditions, mentality, and way of life that you will never come to understand because of your split lineage and all of these things will die with you Thoth. As good as it is that you at least are trying to stay in touch with your Armenian side, you’re still VASTLY limited when compared to the majority (not all, but majority) of folks your own age that have grown up in homes consisting of Hye/Hye parents. Your children will be even more so limited and it will continually degenerate to extinction in your family’s line, it’s difficult to accept but it’s something that simply is true and easily provable when you investigate real life cases. I am somewhat regretful not having learned Armenian however...but thats just the way it was... Yes, you’re right, that is the way it was; and inter-marriage did in fact contribute to you not learning Armenian because among your two parents there was also another ethnic lineage present besides just Armenian. This is very self-evident, you point it out yourself while being living proof of the culturally destructive effects inter-marriage had, one of those effects being the formation of an environment where your study of Armenian language was not nurtured as much as it should have been and could have been HAD both your parents been Hye. When a person, as an adult, cannot speak to one’s spouse in one’s native ethnic tongue such as Armenian, what chance does one’s child have when all he/she hears spoken between the parents is the common language they both know, in Thoth’s case, that language being English? The answer is simple, that child will inherently learn what is spoken the most in that household or the language the parents use to communicate with one another. With Hye/Hye parents, the parents may in fact both speak fluent English, but all they have to do is consciously speak Armenian around the child and that child will learn it fluently with little or no difficulty, this choice by the parents is not present within the setting of an inter-marriage. So not only is that child’s lineage half-Armenian due to the inter-marriage but this child very likely will never speak the language and if they don’t do that, the written alphabet and ability to read in Armenian will also be lost and gone for good. Now, with that logic and reason CLEARLY sprawled out for Thoth and the rest of you that are in social denial, you cannot possibly claim to me that inter-marriage is not anti-preservation for my Armenian culture, heritage, language, and lineage because it clearly has incredibly destructive effects whether you like to admit to it or not. People have the right to choose - fully - how they will live. You obviously don't understand that folks make choices for themselves and their families - to survive - to prosper - and this is how it always has been. Yes Armenian traditional culture is changing (if one can say such a thing - as nothing is static) and - like all traditional cultures in the world today - is under fire from the dominant Western culture culture... Yes, people do have the right to choose, I never said they do not. Not anywhere in my writing will you find any denial of the existence of that choice, you are being a negative critic of a portion of my argument that you just fabricated on your own behalf, in short, don’t put words into my mouth. The choice is obviously there for everyone to make, that much is true, but choosing inter-marriage is in fact WRONG IF on any level an Armenian individual is CONCERNED about the preservation of his/her Hye culture, lineage, and heritage and that of his/her children in the future. You can’t say you “care so much about your Armenian heritage” then turn around and inter-marry, thus completely cutting off your Armenian roots at the core, it’s a hypocrisy and contradiction in terms; it just does not make sense. One cannot boast about the 65th step that was correctly taken on the path of Armenian preservation when in fact at step number 1 of forming a union with a Hye lover, you decided to not take that step at all. When you want to grow a rose, you seed the soil with the appropriate seed, give it sunlight, water, and nutrients so it grows, and it does grow to blossom beautifully. But if you start with the wrong seed, then deprive it of sunlight, and urinate on it, how will that plant grow? And if it does, it will not be a rose; and if it’s a hybrid seed to begin with, its petals/stem may look somewhat like a rose, but it will only PARTLY be a rose, but never a complete rose. However, IF you couldn’t care less about preservation, then the choice of inter-marriage does not matter and is not wrong or worth losing sleep over because you have also made the choice of not caring about preservation of your own heritage. In fact, once you do make the choice of not caring about your Armenian lineage/heritage/culture’s preservation, then every other choice after that is completely out of the loop and should not pertain in any way to the topic of preservation, it’s pointless and irrelevant. I have never said you HAVE TO make the choice of marrying a Hye, some of you keep trying to make that assumption to discredit or create slander toward me, instead, try putting up a valid counter-point to what I write if you can. What I DO BELIEVE, is that IF you want to PRESERVE Armenian heritage/lineage/culture, the choice of inter-marriage is the wrong one, this is a very reasonable, rationale, and completely relevant idea. If you DON’T CARE much about PRESERVATION of such things, then by all means, do what you want and any choices you make about inter-marriage are not wrong in any way because you just don’t care nor are you a proponent of preservation through personal decision. What is incredibly annoying and hypocritical is seeing a self-proclaimed “super Armenian” romantically involved with an odar. Honestly, what the hell is the point of such people’s “Armenian spirit” when that very same spirit obviously WASN’T remotely STRONG ENOUGH to compel them to ACTUALLY MARRY AN ARMENIAN? That kind of behavior is incredibly pathetic. ...but I do not think that the Diaspora is the place to pitch the battle...Armenians from Armenia must decide to what degree they will cling to or continue with their culture... Are you serious?! With nearly half the world population of Armenians being Diaspora all of a sudden it must be “left to them”. Hello! In case you didn’t notice my friend, “them” is ME, last I checked I’m still ARMENIAN from ARMENIAN parents and ARMENIAN grandparents. You speak of Diaspora as if they are not Hye anymore, sure there are some that have inter-married such as your parents, but the majority still are in very tightly knit Armenian communities all around the world, myself included; and we’re supposed leave it to “Armenians from Armenia” to decide things? I AM FROM ARMENIA! And so is every single other Diasporan that fled persecution, that’s why we’re called Armenians, escaping death did not make us any less Armenian nor should our concern be any less for our homeland, Jesus Christ you’re obtusely naive. It amazes me every day how people fail to comprehend this simple phrase. Thanks Thoth No, actually what’s REALLY amazing is how you claim that you didn’t read past a certain point yet in the same breath began putting words into my mouth as far as my writing was concerned on your own behalf. Maybe if you had read it all, you would see that no where in all that did I say “you HAVE TO make the choice of inter-marriage”, the whole point is, if someone is really a person that cares about Armenian preservation, that decision begins through basic choices such as not inter-marrying. This is a “simple” notion, and as you claim, you are all for understanding “simple things”, so next time read and clearly understand what you read before making false accusations of others or providing tasteless wit with BS one-liners and smileys. OK, you've invoked my name, so I feel compelled to respond here. The problem was not that my father married an "odar." The problem was that he deliberately chose to not teach us the Armenian language. Yet at the same time, he taught us about what it is to be Armenian, about Armenian culture, Armenian history, etc. You can reject that or not- it's your choice. Well first I’d like to say it is incredibly sad to hear that a grown man would deliberately make it a point to not teach his own child the language that he himself grew up on. The spoken language is one of the most significant portions of any culture, so the fact that he deliberately did not teach you, for whatever reason, things cannot be redeemed after that simply by having you learn Armenian history, a book could have taught you that, and if you think simply by knowing Hye history you can truly be credited to being Armenian, then you’re sorely mistaken Anaheet jan. How you can even believe that you are actually preserving Hye culture by not knowing its fundamental roots of language, alphabet, and speech is beyond me. Any mediocre anthropologist will tell you that the diminishing of an ethnic group’s language/speech is one of the first things that leads to the dilution and possible destruction of that ethnic group, and since inter-marriage promotes the diminishing of even the basic element of such things as Armenian linguistics in mixed children, then we can logically deduce that inter-marriage is in fact the WRONG choice for any individual that may be concerned with cultural/heritage/lineage self-preservation. Also, I don’t think you can claim to know what “it is to be Armenian” because if you DID actually FULLY understand what Armenianism is in both spirit, culture, lineage, and heritage, and the importance of those aspects; then you would also know how to speak your native tongue because it would have been an important issue for you, regardless of the fact that you’re half-Hye by lineage. If my dad had wanted us to learn Armenian, it would have been a different story. My mom wanted to learn it. My dad didn't want us to learn it. Blame him for that, not marrying an "odar." From what I’ve written thus far, it’s very clear that inter-marriage is VERY MUCH related to choices such as the one your father made about deliberately not teaching you Armenian. It’s redundant for me to get into it again, read some of the above, but suffice that I say that inter-marriage can easily lead to the choice your father made for an incredible number of reasons, yet within a Hye/Hye marriage, that choice never truly comes up because there is a consistency in the mentality, atmosphere, tradition, practices, values, way of life, heritage, culture, and lineage of that Hye/Hye household. I think Jews have a better idea. If you marry a Jew, your children are Jews. Why isn't it that way for us? If you marry an Armenian, your children are Armenians. This notion has been brought up before, and I’ve gone through it in depth, since you are new, I’ll gladly write some more about it. Judaism is brilliant in its dynamism, because it can be considered BOTH as a RELIGION as well as a LINEAGE for the people of a land known as Israel. When an individual converts to Judaism for whatever reason, yes they are then considered “Jewish” by title, but ONLY in the context of RELGIOUS belief, they are NOT, I repeat, they are NOT necessarily in any way connected to the lineage of people known as Israelites, which are also known as “Jews”. But because the word “Jew” is synonymous for religious belief and ethnic lineage it can be very misleading with describing someone that has converted to the religion of Judaism, this person is a Jew, but not a person of ISRAELI lineage. I can convert my belief from Apostolic Christian to that of Judaism tomorrow and be regarded as “Jewish”, but am I a Jew in the context of my lineage being part of the people of Israel? No, of course not, I’m still ARMENIAN and my lineage is still part of the people of Armenia because my parents, grandparents, etc, were of that lineage; thus I can only be referred to as an Armenian “Jew”, which is an ARMENIAN that has converted to Judaic religious beliefs, but is certainly not a true Israelite. If you go to Israel, you will quickly notice that those of true Israeli origin will not just refer to themselves as “Jewish” but as “Israeli” in a declaration of their true lineage, and unfortunately, those individuals that have lost their Israelite lineage through scattering in the early 20th century or those that are merely “converts” to Judaism as a religion, a lot of times get treated in a VERY condescending manner by those that are truly Israelites and children of Israel through Israelite/Israelite marriages keeping that lineage in tact. So NO, you cannot say that if you marry an Armenian as an odar, then your children are full blooded Armenians directly connected to Armenian lineage, because Armenianism is NOT synonymous with being a religion and a lineage/culture the way Judaism is. A Jewish woman that marries a non-Jew can through RELIGIOUS ceremony convert her children to Jewish faith, thus them becoming “Jews” in the religious sense, but they will NEVER be part of true Jewish lineage, which is that of the children of Israel, the Israelites. That is why cumulatively worldwide there are about 20 million “Jews” which includes those folks that converted to Judaism as a religious faith, those that have diluted lineages but still give themselves the title of “Jew”, and the true Israel Jews that are still directly linked to their lineage through Israeli/Israeli marriage. If you count only those “Jews” that are of Israeli/Israeli parents in the present day world, their numbers are at about 4-5 million, not 20 million. And since Armenianism doesn’t have this luxury of being considered a lineage/culture as well as a form of religion, a child of a Hye/Odar marriage is HALF hye, not full. You wouldn’t call a person that is a child of Japanese/German marriage “Japanese” or merely “German” because they are not COMPLETELY either of those things, they are mixed, so why would you assume that a child of an Armenian/odar marriage is equivalent of a Hye/Hye marriage in the CONTEXT of LINEAGE (not trying to say one is superior to the other as a person, calm yourselves my critics) when that child is clearly of mixed lineage? The answer is, you wouldn't assume so. Clear definition of lineage is BS. That's a nineteenth century ethnological concept with no basis in fact. Language and culture are more important than "bloodlines." Actually it’s not BS, don’t so pretentious in assuming such things. Lineage is in fact very clear in its definition, though not surprisingly, the greatest adversaries of this clarity are those that have already forfeited it through inter-marriage and their children, such as you Anaheet. Lineage is the basis of the hierarchy of any culture, it is where all the other sub-categories of heritage are derived from beginning with other basics such as distinct linguistics/speech to more complex notions of traditions, values, mentalities, and beliefs. But let us ASSUME that you are right about lineage not being important for a moment; let us assume that language and culture are in fact the only important factors. Now, you don’t speak Armenian and are distanced from Armenian culture due to the inter-marriage that took place, so thus according to YOUR OWN theory, inter-marriage did in fact play a key role in disrupting cultural preservation. Hence even on the assumption of lineage “not being important” as you would claim, which was a wrong assumption of you to begin with, you STILL are INCORRECT about inter-marriage not playing a destructive role on Armenian heritage and culture as well as its survival. How many Russian speakers are ethnically Russian? Many. Language and culture can be acquired. Yes it can, I can learn Japanese and study/understand/learn about Japanese culture, hence performing the “acquiring” that you speak of, but that does NOT make me Japanese, I’m STILL Armenian through my lineage, my Armenian parents, and my connection to my homeland and place of ancestral origin. Try and understand this, it amazes me how many of you do not grasp this notion. Anyway, don't pretend to be speaking for me, since you're obviously not. I wasn’t trying to speak for you Anaheet, you spoke for yourself with what you said. You claim inter-marriage has absolutely no detrimental effects on Armenian cultural, heritage, and lineage preservation; yet you describe things like this quote below which are directly linked to the inter-marriage that took place in your own family. One of my ex-uncles (one of my aunts' ex-husbands) has said some nasty things about my dad. My dad calls him "Shoon Ferre-ghar." (The "ghar" part is supposed to be Farsi for "donkey," I don't know how to transliterate it. Of course "shoon" is dog!) He always enjoys his bilingual joke. It seems CLEARLY detrimental to me, unless you find what you describe above as “positive” for culture, lineage, heritage preservation for Armenians, in which case I would REALLY be worried for you. BTW, Pirate, I object to your narrow-minded and misdirected accusations at SevMard (amongts others) ingnorance or stubornness. He should be a model for all human being, regardless of ethnicity. If anyone has displayed ignorance/intolerance, it's you. I'm not going to comment any further, for fear of instigating yet another series of uncontrolled and quite uninspiring rants and accusations - I'm sorry, but you can keep your quest for racial purity for yourself. I tell it how it is and you label me because you’re conditioned to do so, I’ve expected such reactions long before I began my writing career. I don’t expect to be seen in a good light on these boards because seldom are those that describe what they see around them as it truly is happening liked. This is because individuals like me reveal things people like you would like to not think about, and I talk about things that many of you do not even dare speak of but during moments of solace, when it’s just you and your conscience, you feel these things and you know them to be true, I just remind you of all this and you dislike me for reminding you of it and putting it in your face. I never accused Sev-Mard or anyone here of being a person of “bad” character or ill moral judgment, on the contrary, I’m the one that is CONTINUALLY attacked on a personal level by you and some of other posters here every time I write anything remotely pertaining to critical thought on matters that concern us all as young Armenians. It’s either a variant of the “ignorant” label you or some other folks toss my way or a sarcastic comment in an attempt to be a clown; but NEVER has anyone outside of maybe Boghos, which I still respect a lot, put up a descent retort outside of lashing out against me with verbal attacks. If you think my writing is “uncontrolled”, “uninspiring”, “too long”, just don’t read it, why waste your time at all? After all, I’m just an “ignorant” and “stubborn” person, right? With regards to Sev-Mard, I truly believe in the things he says about how he feels about his female counterpart, he is definitely genuine in his emotions. But that still will not keep me from pointing out the fact that because a union is taking place between him and a Hye, one less union will take place between a Hye and that same Hye woman, and for preservation purposes for us Armenians, inter-marriage is wrong. Can you honestly deny this Vava? Yes it’s an awkward truth, but it is TRUTH never the less; I’m just presenting it to you and you lash out against me over and over again along with some other folks on these boards. In order to write about the things I put down on paper, one must be desensitized to a high degree during the writing process as well as while reading what others have to say. It certainly is incredibly emotionally taxing as well as draining. Maybe one day some of you will have the courage to see things as they truly are, let’s hope it won’t be too late for all of us Armenians by then, until that day comes I’ll keep writing out my ideas for those that like reading them, and those of you that hate what I write, just don’t read it. Whether I speak of the truth or not in all of your ears, ultimately in the end the truth will reveal itself, and when it does, who will my antagonizing critics label, antagonize, and lash out against then? One of the most impact-filled and interesting things I ever read on these forums was when Azat once said something along the lines of “I’m trying to find a nice Armenian girl to settle down with” while simultaneously Sev-Mard was speaking of his own Armenian girlfriend in that same thread. Truly it was a moment of irony on un-paralleled levels, the Armenian man pouring his heart out about not being able to find an Armenian woman for himself while the odar speaks of his own Armenian woman. Think about this ladies and gentlemen. I hope everyone has a great weekend, almost Friday! Wow it is Friday, started writing on Thursday! -The Armenian Pirate TheArmenianPirateBroadcast@hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 Tell me, why shouldn’t Vigil be in pain or frustrated? Why shouldn’t he be concerned as an Armenian about the danger that odars pose to the survival of our Armenian lineage, bloodline, and heritage? Because last time I checked, Vigil was living in the US, attending a US university, and enjoying all the greatness this country has to offer ... if preservation and all that other blah blah blah is sooooooooo important to him, let him go back to wherever the heck he came from. It's a mute point to sit among the diaspora and preach preservation of things as they were. You gave your identity up when you left your land so get used to it and stop complaining and dreaming of what was as that will NEVER be again. It can't be. Unless you want to duplicate Armenia somewhere else ... in which case, I hope you realize you're dreaming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mx5 Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 Seaphan, I recomand you to rename this site something like:ODARAHAYFORUM/ or you should rethink of a an early retirment as a moderator,i dont think you are doing right in what you should do,and that is preservation of armenian Diaspora or whatt else is the purpose of this website,if you yourself doesnt believe in what are you selling,which is becoming qutie rotten!!,you better sell something else,a product you believe in I suggest to you the name:How not to be Armenian. But please stop preaching to yourself and to the others that we are inavitably doomed,and dont try to impose your pasimistic vissions on others,we are here to stay as Armenia is here to stay too and FOREVER you take my word FOR it!!!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 My beautiful Hye language? Nope. My Armenian alphabet? Nope. My Armenian written word? Nope. Read your rant again and you'll realize it's not only yours. Nope, you are half-Hye and your children will be even less so. Wow, really observant. What the hell are you implying seriously? Half-Hye so half-human? On the other hand, I cannot just deny the fact that in the role that young Hyes need to play for our Armenian culture, lineage, and heritage to survive and proliferate, you as a mixed child, are FAR LESS effective for that role inherently due to your dual background which has led to the loss of many aspects/understandings that could have been more “Hye” in you had you been a Hye/Hye child VS mixed; your lack of Armenian linguistic knowledge being the first and most obvious of such things. Other people aren't tools for realizing your racial purification goals Pirate The choice is obviously there for everyone to make, that much is true, but choosing inter-marriage is in fact WRONG IF on any level an Armenian individual is CONCERNED about the preservation of his/her Hye culture, lineage, and heritage and that of his/her children in the future. You can’t say you “care so much about your Armenian heritage” then turn around and inter-marry, thus completely cutting off your Armenian roots at the core, it’s a hypocrisy and contradiction in terms; it just does not make sense. Since when is marriage always based on rational thought or decisions? Or why should it be? I never accused Sev-Mard or anyone here of being a person of “bad” character or ill moral judgment, on the contrary, I’m the one that is CONTINUALLY attacked on a personal level by you and some of other posters here every time I write anything remotely pertaining to critical thought on matters that concern us all as young Armenians. Funny because I can remember all that bs about how much we've been through and how that doesn't compare to what the black people have been through... Who the hell are you anyway to judge the worth of one's experiences? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 As images say more than words I'll contribute like this: And don't forget this charmer of a smilie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 People have the right to choose - fully - how they will live. The world's prisons are, rightly, full of people who choose to live like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 Seaphan, I recomand you to rename this site something like:ODARAHAYFORUM/ or you should rethink of a an early retirment as a moderator,i dont think you are doing right in what you should do,and that is preservation of armenian Diaspora or whatt else is the purpose of this website,if you yourself doesnt believe in what are you selling,which is becoming qutie rotten!!,you better sell something else,a product you believe in I suggest to you the name:How not to be Armenian. But please stop preaching to yourself and to the others that we are inavitably doomed,and dont try to impose your pasimistic vissions on others,we are here to stay as Armenia is here to stay too and FOREVER you take my word FOR it!!!. 1. I am not the owner of the site 2. I am posting as a member here and not a moderator. Being a moderator doesn't restrict me from having an opinion. 3. Who said Armenia isn't here to stay? So .. so.... you take MY word mister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 Nice There's hope yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mx5 Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 (edited) Read your rant again and you'll realize it's not only yours. Wow, really observant. What the hell are you implying seriously? Half-Hye so half-human? Other people aren't tools for realizing your racial purification goals Pirate Since when is marriage always based on rational thought or decisions? Or why should it be? Funny because I can remember all that bs about how much we've been through and how that doesn't compare to what the black people have been through... Who the hell are you anyway to judge the worth of one's experiences? Did I miss something here?did Pirate mention anything about "half human",what I see here as an Armenian is that he is suggesting ways for contributing to the humanity by preserving ourselves as Armenians first ,while you are suggesting ways for contributing to the Armenianity by preserving ourselves as humans!! now if you think that distinguishing this two from each other is so simple as you suggest in a few words ,you are dead wrong,you have got to put much more effort to convince many of us,at least me!!...if you ever care to... And please keep in mind that:What is the point to lose yourself and win the world,that if you ever value yourself!!.. Edited June 11, 2004 by mx5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 I would just like to say that I like to eat my rice alone. Some prefer to eat it with chicken or other sort of meat, but I think that it sort of defies the pure taste of rice. I mean rice has such an exquisite and special taste that it must not get lost among other foods. By combining it with meats or vegetables it somehow tarnishes it’s reputation and makes it less of a noble grain that it’s supposed to be. What a distaste to appreciate foods in combinations where different ingredients can bring out such explosions of flavors and essences. It’s equally outrageous to feel that it’s so important for the well being of our taste buds and for the appreciation of every sort of a meal, for each one has something to contribute to another. How ridiculous! No, we must learn to eat rice in an isolated form, rice and only rice, and anyone who combines it with something else is a disgraceful, plebian and primitive eater, not to mention immoral and irresponsible!!! Viva la RICE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 I would just like to say that I like to eat my rice alone. Some prefer to eat it with chicken or other sort of meat, but I think that it sort of defies the pure taste of rice. I mean rice has such an exquisite and special taste that it must not get lost among other foods. By combining it with meats or vegetables it somehow tarnishes it’s reputation and makes it less of a noble grain that it’s supposed to be. What a distaste to appreciate foods in combinations where different ingredients can bring out such explosions of flavors and essences. It’s equally outrageous to feel that it’s so important for the well being of our taste buds and for the appreciation of every sort of a meal, for each one has something to contribute to another. How ridiculous! No, we must learn to eat rice in an isolated form, rice and only rice, and anyone who combines it with something else is a disgraceful, plebian and primitive eater, not to mention immoral and irresponsible!!! Viva la RICE! Glad you're back Eve dear... Nicely put. I like my rice with some butter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Did I miss something here? Yeah apparently you did. Nope, you are half-Hye and your children will be even less so. And? What the hell is trying to prove? He knows he is half-Hye, why point it out like this? Is this some kind of argument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mx5 Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 No, we must learn to eat rice in an isolated form, rice and only rice, and anyone who combines it with something else is a disgraceful, plebian and primitive eater, not to mention immoral and irresponsible!!! Viva la RICE! Mentioning of rice,looks it is getting populer day after day!. a married close friend of mine was complaining to me couple of days ago that he is feeling as though he is eating Rice all his life, every day and night that he was sick of it and cannot bear its taste anymore, I told him it was easy, just simply stop eating it,he replied that was not possible,after i insisted he confessed that the Rice grain itself had nothing to do with it and the problem was with his wife!!. to my syrprise he went on saying that :Having sex with his wife day after day and night after night made him feel as though he was eating Rice all his life!!!(poor Rice,cant blame the Chinese on this!!!). So Anileve if you are not married yet,take it from an experts advice(my married Rice-sick friend here)that whoever you got married and to whatever race they belonged ,even if she/he was miss or mr.universe,after a while their taste will end up like a Rice to you!!!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwe ... thanks for ruining another fine source of nutrition for me. Now everytime I eat rice I'll be thinking of sex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 (edited) mx5, this is weird, just yesterday I realised I had enough of eating rice. Edited June 12, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Change positions/locations while eating rice, they say. Try different "games" - such as licking soy sauce off your rice. Take a vacation with your rice so you don't have squabbles over everyday chores, like the kids or such as how well-done your rice is. Also might want to join a swingers'-club with your rice - try different varieties a bit, whole-grain vs. processed, etc. Works for some people and their rice, or some rice and their people, apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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