White House Press Release

[gamavor]

You mean you are not catholic...

 

OK, so if the word "Genocide" is not that significant for those who issue stupid statements year after year, why they just do not replace "tragedy", "massacre" "annihilation" with Genocide. What is the big fuss and deal about it? Would they discharge something, would they abandon something, would they lose something? What? Why they don't use the word Genocide?

[DominO123]

You mean you are not catholic...

 

OK, so if the word "Genocide" is not that significant for those who issue stupid statements year after year, why they just do not replace "tragedy", "massacre" "annihilation" with Genocide. What is the big fuss and deal about it? Would they discharge something, would they abandon something, would they lose something? What? Why they don't use the word Genocide?

I thing it is because the word has been stigmatised. It has as well legal implications.

[Vigil]

OK, so if the word "Genocide" is not that significant for those who issue stupid statements year after year, why they just do not replace "tragedy", "massacre" "annihilation" with Genocide. What is the big fuss and deal about it? Would they discharge something, would they abandon something, would they lose something? What? Why they don't use the word Genocide?

 

Because that one word would cost Turkey and anyone involved ( *cough* Jewish insurence agencies *cough*) a lot of money.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[gamavor]

and...

[Twilight Bark]

While some of the thoughts on this thread deserve much editorializing, I'll try to be as brief and detached as possible, to save (mostly my) time. In the same spirit, I will not address most of the comments.

 

It is disingenuous to suggest that Armenians should lobby their own or anybody else's parliament for recognizing other genocides, in order to be justified in airing their own grievences. Anyone reasonably familiar with the human species would know that it functions through "advocacy" (for oneself and self-perceived group of belonging), and "suppressed memory" of others' suffering. We couldn't go through even one day without going insane if it weren't for our capacity to ignore others' plight. If we related to each and every other person's grievances and pain as if it were our own, we could not function at all. Therefore, it is the duty of those aggrieved to make a case for their rights. While humans do not, and cannot, spontaneously volunteer to address all of the injustices inflicted on others, they nevertheless have an evolved sense of fairness and justice that obliges them to react to pleas based on those values. While there will always be exceptional individuals that defy this rule, it is for the aggrieved to make a case, and for the decent to react in a morally justified way. That's the way humans work.

 

Offered in case it is forgotten or neglected by those too busy with more serious matters.

Edited April 26, 2004 by Twilight Bark

[Vigil]

It is disingenuous to suggest that Armenians should lobby their own or anybody else's parliament for recognizing other genocides, in order to be justified in airing their own grievences.

 

Actually, I think it is in fact proper to try and recognize other genocides mainly because it gives Armenians the moral high ground, which is what many advocates of passive resistence through out history have used to push forward their agenda. A example is Gandhi, who brought with him reporters in order to capture the immoral actions of the British and eventually allowed him to gain the moral high ground that was needed in acheiving India's independence.

 

I also do not think they are trying to justify their actions mainly because the lobby is not the aggressor at his point, but rather the victim. So for you to be implying that our lobby is actually gaining somthing from this venture is very silly when in fact we are using our own resources to bring to light not just our genocide, but many others that are constintly being ignored due to the "elite media's" media monopoly.

 

What I mean by that is that there is only so much you can shove into society's face before they just wake up and realize what is going on. I personally do not care if the "elite media" wants to constintly force feed us images of the suffering during WW2, but when these same individuals have the odasity to become a roadblock then that to me is a declaration of war.

 

I have no problem with the "elite media" trying to create more sympathy for their cause, however, when they interfer with mine that is where I draw the line.

 

Also, I would like to add that Armenians are not trying to justify their own grievences and rather are just making sure that history is written as it was played out.

 

As a Armenian youth I am not gaining anything from the recognition of the Genocide and the only people that might even remotly gain somthing are the dead. At least I will know that they will truly rest in peace.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[Twilight Bark]

Actually, I think it is in fact proper ...

I didn't say it was not proper to advocate on others' behalf. I said it should not be expected to do so merely to air your own grievences.

 

So for you to be implying that our lobby is actually gaining somthing

I did not say "our" lobby is gaining anything. I was not addressing anything of the sort, as more perceptive readers surely must have understood.

 

As a Armenian youth I am not gaining anything from the recognition of the Genocide and the only people that might even remotly gain somthing are the dead. At least I will know that they will truly rest in peace.

Resolution of the genocide mess would be beneficial for all affected by it emotionally or politically today, and would allow the Armenian and Turkish societies to evolve in a positive direction. I think there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it, although we may not know what that is. In any case, I doubt the dead care, or would be better or worse off one way or the other.

[MJ]

It seems that some pathologies never get resolved...

 

P.S. Pathologies being certain personalities. Perhaps it is resulted from a dual personality syndrome, while leaving in a society pretending to be someone else than what you pretend to be in your own home. I’ll leave it there.

Edited April 26, 2004 by MJ

[Armat]

If it is about denial, then it belongs to the subject of history and historians have to sort it out.

It is about denial but most Armenians already tasted the bitter truth about revisionist paid pro Turkish historians writing garbage and teaching in Universities. I believe while foreign governments passing resolutions may seem futile at least politically but it reinforces the truth about the AG and denying it in the country, which officially recognized it, would be harder to do.

It is interesting as a side note that Turks love the notion “let the history be sorted out by historians” which puts them in a better position since they have the resources to distort the truth so heinously that we won’t be surprised if American children were taught how Armenians committed genocide against the Turks.

To conclude there is nothing pathological or disgraceful for Armenians pressing passage of resolutions conforming the truth about the AG.

[THOTH]

Armat I agree (even if I might cringe a bit....) - just keeping the issue in the news, and keeping pressure on Turkey - both ensure that the genocide (and its denial!) is not forgotten and swept under the rug - and IMO there is value in this. I do however share MJ's aborence with the self perpetuating "Genocide Industry" mentality and the simple sloganeering and such and wish for more reasoned and balanced approaches (and I don't mean adopting any Turkish propaganda positions when i say balanced...but perhaps letting go of a few of our own...and addressing the issues in a more critical/academic manner)...

[gamavor]

My only fear is that Armenia is not prepared to have the Genocide recognized.

[Twilight Bark]

It seems that some pathologies never get resolved...

 

P.S. Pathologies being certain personalities. Perhaps it is resulted from a dual personality syndrome, while leaving in a society pretending to be someone else than what you pretend to be in your own home. I’ll leave it there.

Indeed, "certain personalities" do seem that way. They get resolved one way or the other however.

[Twilight Bark]

It is about denial but most Armenians already tasted the bitter truth about revisionist paid pro Turkish historians writing garbage and teaching in Universities. I believe while foreign governments passing resolutions may seem futile at least politically but it reinforces the truth about the AG and denying it in the country, which officially recognized it, would be harder to do.

It is interesting as a side note that Turks love the notion “let the history be sorted out by historians” which puts them in a better position since they have the resources to distort the truth so heinously that we won’t be surprised if American children were taught how Armenians committed genocide against the Turks.

To conclude there is nothing pathological or disgraceful for Armenians pressing passage of resolutions conforming the truth about the AG.

Armat,

The efforts of Armenian activists should be regarded as part of the much larger and more important issue of aligning the political and diplomatic face of governments with the moral values of their own populations, which they prefer to keep as docile and malleable as possible. The current state of "diplomacy" and "international relations" is hardly any more enlightened than the time of kings and emperors, which has supposedly passed.

 

Having said that, if it were up to me, I would channel all the energy of Armenians to address problems in Armenia rather than fix the world at this point. However, I would not disparage what others are doing, if its realistic alternative is doing not much at all about anything.

[Sasun]

My only fear is that Armenia is not prepared to have the Genocide recognized.

Yes, there should be contingency planning.

[Sasun]

There is nothing wrong to mourn our losses and bring it to the attention of other nations who are humanistic and democratic. Ever wonder how animal rights are put higher in democratic countries than human rights in foreign countries? I mean, people will pay more attention to a dead cat in their town than millions of dead people in other countries.

 

This is also a political struggle, we must use as much lobbying as we can against the Turkish lobby of denial. It is our duty for our ancestors and for our compatriots, its a sort of a war that we have to wage. If we are able and willing to help other nations in their wars then we will do, if not then that's not too heroic of us but then we are not obliged to be heros for other nations.

[gamavor]

Yes, there should be contingency planning.

You know what bothers me?

 

The words of the British Ambassador Thordun Abutt Walgun, or whatever.. She said that what is important is to make sure that such things (acts) should not be repeated and we all need to work to prevent them. On the surface it looks great, but from a different perspective it is par excelance – racist comment. So, it appears that it is OK to kill 1,5 million Armenians, but if the victims are somebody else, we need to prevent that from happening. Of course we cannot resurrect those that perished in the hands of the turks, and those that deny their collective death as a Genocide want to remember them so that such acts could not happen to them.

 

Clever, isn't it

[MJ]

Indeed, "certain personalities" do seem that way. They get resolved one way or the other however.

Pathological disorder…

 

I can bet that you grew up something like Muret Gyunder (whomever it may be) when leaving home, were called something like Hagop Yalanchian (whomever that may be),at home, and yet in your third personality, online, you think of yourself as a barking dog. As Muret you were as meek as one can be, as Hagop you were below the grass, now when you go online you think of yourself a barking entity – perhaps a lion…

 

Why don’t you ever post something on your own so that people would know what you stand for (or that stand for nothing but for satisfying your quintessential ranting needs) , who has nothing to say but to interpret what others say or "editorialize." And yet, three months later would even forget what he stood for and "defended his territory," and flip flap to the opposite side. Isn’t it the mantra of such quintessential cowards to always blame others in what takes their comfort away from them? Just what kind of piece of art do you think you are?

 

I guess this turned to be response for few minutes only.

[Twilight Bark]

Pathological disorder…

 

I can bet that you grew up something like Muret Gyunder (whomever it may be) when leaving home, were called something like Hagop Yalanchian (whomever that may be),at home, and yet in your third personality, online, you think of yourself as a barking dog. As Muret you were as meek as one can be, as Hagop you were below the grass, now when you go online you think of yourself a barking entity – perhaps a lion…

 

Why don’t you ever post something on your own so that people would know what you stand for (or that stand for nothing but for satisfying your quintessential ranting needs) , who has nothing to say but to interpret what others say or "editorialize." And yet, three months later would even forget what he stood for and "defended his territory," and flip flap to the opposite side. Isn’t it the mantra of such quintessential cowards to always blame others in what takes their comfort away from them? Just what kind of piece of art do you think you are?

 

I guess this turned to be response for few minutes only.

Dear Schoolyard Bully,

You turn anything that contradicts your pedestrian views as personal insults. As I said earlier in response to another pathetic grunt of yours, it doesn't matter if I am a coward, a hero, have a dozen personalities or one. What does matter in this conversation are the ideas. What I try to do online is to inject a measure of reason into the conversation, and occasionally post a historical or cultural information that may be out of the beaten path. The currency of this online conversation should be rational ideas and critical analysis, not grunts. Can you defend your ideas by using reason and self-consistency? So far, you have failed that all too often, and yet display an amazing level of pompousness. You need to come down to earth.

[MJ]

Dear Schoolyard Bully,

You turn anything that contradicts your pedestrian views as personal insults. As I said earlier in response to another pathetic grunt of yours, it doesn't matter if I am a coward, a hero, have a dozen personalities or one. What does matter in this conversation are the ideas. What I try to do online is to inject a measure of reason into the conversation, and occasionally post a historical or cultural information that may be out of the beaten path. The currency of this online conversation should be rational ideas and critical analysis, not grunts. Can you defend your ideas by using reason and self-consistency? So far, you have failed that all too often, and yet display an amazing level of pompousness. You need to come down to earth.

Phew. What a man of ideas…

 

And take your stinky personality away from me and don’t make me puking…

[Twilight Bark]

I can bet that you grew up something like Muret Gyunder (whomever it may be) when leaving home, were called something like Hagop Yalanchian (whomever that may be),at home, and yet in your third personality, online, you think of yourself as a barking dog.  As Muret you were as meek as one can be, as Hagop you were below the grass, now when you go online you think of yourself a barking entity – perhaps a lion…

Against my better judgement, I will address this piece of excrement, so people would not be confused by it. Each and every statement above is wrong both literally and figuratively.

 

Why  don’t you ever post something on your own so that people would know what you stand for (or that stand for nothing but for satisfying your quintessential ranting needs)

Search the forum if you are interested.

 

, who has nothing to say but to interpret what others say or "editorialize."

Yes, you would like the stupidities, particularly of your own production, to remain unchallenged, right? It's obvious that there is enough garbage collection to keep me busy, thank you very much.

 

And yet, three months later would even forget what he stood for and "defended his territory," and flip flap to the opposite side.

Show me.

 

Isn’t it the mantra of such quintessential cowards to always blame others in what takes their comfort away from them?

Are you referring to me? Whom did I blame for "my discomfort"? If you are referring to the discomfort of reading lame stupidities. Yes, I do blame their authors or at least their mentors for that. That's fair.

 

Just what kind of piece of art do you think you are?

At this point, much better than whatever your online personality appears to be.

[Twilight Bark]

Phew. What a man of ideas…

 

And take your stinky personality away from me and don’t make me puking…

Defend your ideas, or go away.

[MJ]

I think the WSJ article below has some relevance to this thread, though has perhaps been written for multiple purposes. Perhaps it can also provide some explanations an capacity of hints - but that is merely my guess and is not based on knowledge.

 

 

COMMENTARY

 

Next Up in the Caucasus By DAVID L. PHILLIPS (he is the coordinator of now disbanded TARC and a former State Department emloyee - MJ )

 

April 14, 2004YEREVAN, Armenia -- Inspired by Georgia's "Rose Revolution," Armenians are also demanding regime change. Thousands of peaceful pro-democracy demonstrators have gathered in Yerevan's Freedom Square in recent days. The government arrested hundreds and is threatening violence if protesters march on the presidential palace. To avoid a bloody conflict, an internationally supervised referendum should be held to determine whether a majority want to recall President Robert Kocharian.Many Armenians are adamant in their opposition to Mr. Kocharian's corrupt and inept administration. Apathy has become anger, particularly among Armenia's youth, who are frustrated by their lack of opportunity. The younger generation is choosing to emigrate rather than stay in their impoverished and landlocked country. Armenia's population was 3.5 million in 1989; today only about two million remain.Armenia has been in crisis ever since Mr. Kocharian forced former President Ter-Petrossian from power in 1996. The low point was reached on October 27, 1999, when masked gunmen stormed the national assembly and assassinated the prime minister and speaker of the parliament. The government's botched investigation disheartened many Armenians and prompted charges of collusion between Mr. Kocharian and the killers.Stepan Demirchian, the speaker's son, and Armen Sarkissian, the prime minister's brother, sought redress at the ballot box. Even though international observers accused the government of rigging the presidential election in February 2003, the opposition had no recourse when the government ignored international condemnation and refused to step down.No single event sparked the recent protests. Armenians have a history of silent protest. But this time they are raising their voices in accusing Mr. Kocharian of running a mafia state -- and demanding change.Contemptuous of the protesters, a scornful senior official accused the opposition of undermining Armenia's security at a time when Ilham Aliev, Azerbaijan's new president, is becoming increasingly bellicose. After achieving independence from the Soviet Union, Armenians won a bloody war with Azerbaijan over the disputed ethnic Armenian enclave of Nagorno-Artsax in Azerbaijan. Tens of thousands were killed and almost a million Azerbaijanis were driven from their homes in a spasm of bloody fratricide. The bloodletting stopped when international mediators brokered an uneasy cease fire in 1993.Armenians have paid a steep price for the war with Azerbaijan. In solidarity with their ethnic brethren, Turkey imposed an embargo while linking opening of the Turkish-Armenian border with return of "occupied territories." Though Armenia is the logical route for transporting oil and gas from Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, the $3.2 billion Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline instead traverses Georgia on its way to the Turkish port of Ceyhan on the Eastern Mediterranean. To deflect attention from Armenia's domestic problems, Mr. Kocharian may respond to the Azeri president's rhetoric with threats of his own. By maintaining Armenia in a state of constant conflict, Mr. Kocharian has successfully used the insecurity of Armenians and manipulated their fear to his political advantage.Ever since the last years of the Ottoman Empire, when Armenians were deported and experienced genocide, the Armenian national identity has been defined by adversaries and strengthened by enemies. As a result, Armenians find it easy to wallow in victimization -- complaining but rarely taking action.The Artsax conflict represented a departure for Armenians from their historic feelings of helplessness. As a Artsax Armenian, Mr. Kocharian presents himself as a strong defender of the Armenian nation and appeals to the pride of Armenians that is born from their collective tragedy and shared suffering. The Armenians' bunker mentality is compounded by current problems in Turkish-Armenian relations. Turkey imposed an embargo on Armenia to protest Armenian aggression against their ethnic brethren in Azerbaijan. The Kocharian's governing coalition includes the Armenian National Federation. The so-called Dashnaks are an extremist party that opposes all contact with Turks until Ankara provides an official apology for the Armenian genocide, pays compensation to its victims and hands over territories constituting "Greater Armenia."In large part, Armenia's poverty and isolation are caused by its closed border with Turkey. When I asked Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan about opening the border, which would be in the interests of both Turks and Armenians, he replied "I am very positive towards commercial relations. But first, Yerevan should clarify its intentions." The Turkish leader refers to Mr. Kocharian's refusal to issue an unambiguous statement renouncing claims on territory in Eastern Turkey.Consistent with its support for reform in Eastern Europe and emerging post-Soviet states, the U.S. should help Armenia manage the next phase of its troubled transition to democracy. The Bush administration has great influence over Armenia, which is the third largest per capita recipient of U.S. foreign aid. While making clear that it will not tolerate violence against pro-democracy demonstrators in Freedom Square, Washington can help broker a solution to Armenia's political impasse by encouraging an agreement between the government and opposition to hold a referendum within three months.Progress in Armenia's democratic development could help revitalize peace talks on Nagorno-Artsax, cause Ankara to open the Kars-Gyumri border gate and reduce the influence of Russia and Iran in the South Caucasus. Moreover, it would enable the Armenian people to finally look forward and begin to build a brighter future.Mr. Phillips is a senior fellow and deputy director of the Center for Preventive Action at the Council on Foreign Relations.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/0,,SB1...IbqyEm4,00.html

[Anileve]

Yes, Arpa.  I do understand, for example.

 

There is no question that the Armenia Genocide is a source of pain both for Armenians and Turks.  Perhaps for different reasons and in different ways, but the fact is that the mere allegation of Genocide causes pain to many Turks ( and I have met many of them) who either know that it is true or think that it could not have happened and they are being slandered.

 

There are sure also those who know it is true and it doesn't cause pain to them.

 

Although I agree with the above statement, I am bothered by your vicious responses. Why should the debates be accompanied by personal attacks? Especially when they involve intelligent individuals with a capability on diplomacy.

Edited April 27, 2004 by anileve

[bellthecat]

Although I agree with the above statement, I am bothered by your vicious responses. Why should the debates be accompanied by personal attacks?

I've been a member here for almost as long as MJ - and I've come to realise that mostly it is just the way he writes. So don't make too much out of it.

[Twilight Bark]

Yes, Arpa.  I do understand, for example.

 

There is no question that the Armenia Genocide is a source of pain both for Armenians and Turks.  Perhaps for different reasons and in different ways, but the fact is that the mere allegation of Genocide causes pain to many Turks ( and I have met many of them) who either know that it is true or think that it could not have happened and they are being slandered.

 

There are sure also those who know it is true and it doesn't cause pain to them.

 

Although I agree with the above statement, I am bothered by your vicious responses. Why should the debates be accompanied by personal attacks? Especially when they involve intelligent individuals with a capability on diplomacy.

Those self-evident statements were not the ones in question, Anileve. These were:

 

why don't you lobby for the Armenian Parliament to pass a resolution to condemn the Genocide of Americans of 9/11. Ok, if it is too much for you, why don't you do it for the Assyrians or the Pontic Greeks?

 

And when you start lobbying Yerevan, don't forget the Rwandans, Cambodians and about 100 other nations. Then, I will perhaps believe in your sincerity and recognize the validity of your ranting.

 

 

and were addressed by:

 

It is disingenuous to suggest that Armenians should lobby their own or anybody else's parliament for recognizing other genocides, in order to be justified in airing their own grievences. Anyone reasonably familiar with the human species would know that it functions through "advocacy" (for oneself and self-perceived group of belonging), and "suppressed memory" of others' suffering. We couldn't go through even one day without going insane if it weren't for our capacity to ignore others' plight. If we related to each and every other person's grievances and pain as if it were our own, we could not function at all. Therefore, it is the duty of those aggrieved to make a case for their rights. While humans do not, and cannot, spontaneously volunteer to address all of the injustices inflicted on others, they nevertheless have an evolved sense of fairness and justice that obliges them to react to pleas based on those values. While there will always be exceptional individuals that defy this rule, it is for the aggrieved to make a case, and for the decent to react in a morally justified way. That's the way humans work.

 

Again, I do think there are more important priorities than genocide recognition, but that is not terribly relevant to the exchange above. Anyway, just a recap in case it wasn't clear what all the commotion was about.