Anoushik Posted January 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Like what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheekY Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Yet people only remember God out of selfishness, when bad things or extraordinary good things happen to them, and suddenly they remember that they are religious. As far as helping others, everyone thinks others should take care of themselves, and if it's possible, use others to benefit them. Armenians are especially good at this. like that you don't have to go to church every sunday and pray 24/7 in order to be considered religious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Spectra, Christianity has played an important role in Armenian history, but times have changed. If you think about it, no one is really religious. True Chrisitians really should serve humanity, because Jesus said that we should see Him in every person, and just as we love Him and want to serve Him we should do so towards each other. Yet people only remember God out of selfishness, when bad things or extraordinary good things happen to them, and suddenly they remember that they are religious. As far as helping others, everyone thinks others should take care of themselves, and if it's possible, use others to benefit them. Armenians are especially good at this. Well this is entirely different. You (rightly) accuse some self-proclaimed christians of being unchristian and irreligious and you use this argument to discredit faith and support atheism? this doesn't make sense really. And again with the twin towers example, you're not rejecting God but some misconceptions people have about God. The following essay is worth reading for it addresses all the questions that have been raised in this thread: http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Sui-G...ssays/worth.htm there are a number of threads on theism/atheism/agnosticism on this board btw: here is one I initiated a year ago: http://64.21.83.54/forum/index.php?showtopic=3240 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 (edited) Anoushik I can't answear you directly since words are not adequate .I will in my own way. Rembrandt's family life was marked by misfortune. Between 1635 and 1641 Saskia gave birth to four children, but only the last, Titus, survived; her own death came in 1642- at the age of 30. His personal life, however, continued to be marred by sorrow. His beloved Hendrickje died in 1663, and his son, Titus, in 1668- only 27 years of age. Eleven months later, on October 4, 1669, Rembrandt died in Amsterdam. I don’t know why this post but I just love this man. What a great human soul. To continue to believe in God and continue to paint even though losing both wives and all the children will break any man but he created great masterpieces even when his life was full of sorrow and misery. One only need to look at his portraits the later years and all is clear. Apart from being a tax fraud and a criminal, yes Rembrandt was a great man Edited January 9, 2004 by gurgen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheekY Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 (edited) I don't believe in God because I have no reason to believe in Him. Anoushik you know what right now you don’t believe in God but maybe later when you have a “reason” you will… like you said there are people who never believed in him but then something bad happened to them and they asked him for help and everything changed… so maybe deep down they always believed in him but never really realized that? you don’t have to believe in the God from the Bible but everyone believes in something which they call God… this is kinda interesting http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html Edited January 9, 2004 by skittles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKGIRL28 Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 In my childhood, my Mother specifically sent me to Roman Catholic Schools, primary, Middle and High School and we were taught Religious Studies in classes I didnt enjoy it very much (but thats just me)...and because my mother was raised in a strict catholic manner where you had to go to church every Sunday, she tried to raise me in the same way by making me go to church when I was older... so I had my Communion and got Confirmed and everything.. I dont particularly think Religion is that important in everyday life and i certainly dont go to church anymore, but I do agree with Skittles with the fact that .. you don't have to go to church every sunday and pray 24/7 in order to be considered religious... I think people take religion too seriously these days (which ever religion it is) but that is my own opinion and im not implying what society should or shouldnt do.. Obviously, we all have a choice in life and whether we believe in God or not is entirely up to ourselves at the end of the day.. and yeah, if something dramatic happened in your life, there is the option of turning to religion if you think it would help...I certainly did, but that didnt mean I still go to church every sunday.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Armat, thank you. Because just like you feel when you look at this painting I feel the same when listening to J. S. Bach's Chaconne for solo violin. I can feel how Bach put his love for God into that work. It's a beautiful piece. But Armat, it's possible for someone to be as devout to humans as one could be to God. I don't believe in God because I have no reason to believe in Him. Anoushik I understand you completely since I had the very same thinking pattern myself. Most important for me at least is to clarify what is God. What you referring is what most people wrongly assume that God is someone or something which plays cards with people’s Lives and decides who dies who doesn’t etc. This is pure fiction. God consciousness is deeper which transcends the ordinary thinking of opposites heaven-hell etc. It is beyond that. God is the ultimate force beyond everything even molecules, electrons and all matter. I read enough science books to realize that even science is inadequate to explain the whole existence of all matter, planets, Galaxies. God for me is the very force, which my body embodies within and out, therefore it is extremely hard to understand rationally, in dualistic matter. You approach is counteractive meaning you will never understand it in a traditional thinking methods nor you will understand it through reading the bible stories. Like I said already it transcends thinking… PS I love Bach myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Armat, nice story, I do have similar ones. Anoushik, regarding the prayer, yes! 2000 died even if they may have prayed, but this is not an evidence to reject the existance of something more, because the person that died may be alive on another Universe where the possibility of his non-death existed, him being the observer could only be aware of his life and not death. He could observe the death of others but not his own and will keep wondering like you why is he still alive while others died. And as well, for the believer in a God, the one that is convinced, he will observe things, thos that believe in supernatural will have premonition dreams, stuff like this which will stop when they stop believing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Armat, you're thinking exactly like my father. We've had similar discussions about this. I wouldn't call my really religious, but he is very spiritual. It's so interesting, he defines God exactly like you do. As for me, the more I think about it the less I am convinced. Like I said earlier, maybe there's a higher being, that's a great possibility, but I won't call it God. I've read about Atheism and every atheist has a different view about spirituality - some are very skeptic and some believe in ghosts. The only thing they have in common is that they don't believe in the traditional God. Similarly, I don't believe in Him. Whatever exists is not God. Domino, I'm really sorry, but I don't understand your version of multiple universes. I've tried, really, even researched! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Anoushik read it here.Scientific American. It is not as weird as some may think.It is highly probable. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa...EA5809EC5880000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Domino, I'm really sorry, but I don't understand your version of multiple universes. I've tried, really, even researched! Well, here it comes. Suppose that there is infinit number of Universes, they just pop-up from nothingless by inflation(quantum bubbles). If that is the cases, it would mean that there is infinit numbers of universes that are nearly identical to this one. Now imagine that there is billions of universe in which you live and do nearly the same things and the same time. Your conscienceness is present in all of them... but is more concentrated on some "you." Your conscienceness will get concentrated on some yous rather than others depending in which universe you live. Suppose that you get killed, since there is many similair universes, in many of them you won't die... and since you can only be aware of the "yous" that are not dead, you won't observe your death but the death of others, and them won't observe theirs but the death of others. Universes just supperposes eachothers, and since there is many different universes that supperposes themselves, we get uncertainty, in some universes some things could exist and others not, our conscienceness and the one of others will concentrate on the universe we believe in. This is related to the observer effect I keep talking about, the fact that conscienceness effect our universe. Here, this is a basic article to read. http://www.irva.org/papers/Global.shtml Nothing complex... the article forget to specify that the New-York 3 numbers lotery hit 911, and evidences that add to the influence of the observer, there is as well many other evidences in medecine. I can refer you to some. Once you get the idea of this multiple universe theory, you will never want to change it, believe me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Domino perhaps it explains when you meet someone at first time and feels you know this person for a long time. When I met my best friend in LA it seemed I knew him well even though I hardly knew him. He felt the same. We don’t talk often (I hate phones) but I feel always connected. Perhaps we were friends before our meeting in a different universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Anoushik read it here.Scientific American. It is not as weird as some may think.It is highly probable. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa...EA5809EC5880000 Actually, from a recent poll during physicists conferences the MWT(Multiple world theory) was the number 1 most probable choice even beating Quantum mechanic. The fact is that if someone does not believe in God, he is forced to accept the multiple universe theory... because this universe is fine tunned, there is one chance on billions of billions of billions of billions(more than the symbolic 10^50), that all the conditions are met in order to be life, when I say conditions, I mean, size, mass, density etc... of subatomic particules, the orbitals types etc... and the galaxies equilibres etc... That would mean that if there was no god, there must be at least billions of billions etc... of universes in order that one by chance be fine tuned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Domino perhaps it explains when you meet someone at first time and feels you know this person for a long time. When I met my best friend in LA it seemed I knew him well even though I hardly knew him. He felt the same. We don’t talk often (I hate phones) but I feel always connected. Perhaps we were friends before our meeting in a different universe. Not only this, but precognition dreams as well... Armat, there is ways to test this theory of the observer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Thanks, for the links, Armat and Domino, I'll take some time to read them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 2000 died even if they may have prayed, but this is not an evidence to reject the existance of something Please, don't misunderstand me. I've never believed in God in the sense that if we ask for His help He'll help us. When I believed in God it was mostly because I thought that He was the creator of our universe, nothing else. But what makes me mad is how people use God's name selfishly and how it's accepted by society. The only survivor from the World Trade Center was featured in Time magazine surrounded by candles, kneeled in front of a picture of Jesus. Her story was that God had answered her prayer. I'm happy that she survived and her kids still have their mom, but how dares she speak about how God helped her when so many others died? How dares she - and almost everyone at some point does this - talk about how God favored her out of the rest of the people? And why is this OK in today's society, and has always been OK? For this reason I don't respect religion. For centuries the Church has been, and remains to be, an organized money-making business. The main teaching of Christianity, to treat others like you'd like to be treated and to be tolerant, is nice. But almost every religion teaches the same. Every religion has this Golden Rule. Why can't people teach this Golden Rule independent of God and leave personal beliefs about God out of it? Even if no one I knew died in the WTC I was still very offended by how this woman called her own survival a gift from God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Anoushik, sorry but I don't get it, why are you offended that God saved this woman ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 agreed sasun~what would the world be if everything was perfect-no pain, no anger, nothing bad--it would be great but come on--boreing--not that im saying that id rather have people die-but its just something thats hard to explain.... through all these hardships i believe, that God wants us to gain compassion for one another and LEARN--like school--yeah it wuld be easier to be given the answers to tests and everyone get an A--but you gotta learn the hard way--thats when you know you have truely accomplished something and put alot into it.......theres so much more i can say but its hard to put it into words--hope you catch my drift here-- one more thing-why is it that we humans always like to see the bad in things, be grateful that you are alive and healthy, i believe that God has a plan for all of us, whether big or small.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheekY Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 anoushik if you were in her place what would you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 , but how dares she speak about how God helped her when so many others died? How dares she - and almost everyone at some point does this - talk about how God favored her out of the rest of the people? And why is this OK in today's society, and has always been OK? I actually hate this too. If you believe in God and that "heaven" is a better place, why are people always saying that God was with them, and spared them. Especially in an event like 9-11 when so many other "good" people died as well. It's just tacky, and you were just "lucky". Maybe God took all those people and left you here? Normally not a big deal, but in this case it seems insensitive and bad form. But then again it's a human reaction when surviving near death experiences, to automatically attribute it to God saving them, watching over them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Anoushik jan, its called "faith".... everything in christianity is based on faith, and so is the main thing it teaches.. they dont teach the main thing to be, treat others like you would treat yourselves or whatever... Trust me if you understood why fait is so important, then you will undertand christianity.. I will post a url for all these questions being asked by atheists in in,, or not so atheists.. lol Domino, not a bad explanation with all that galaxy stuff.. i like... its what i try to get out of the atheists, and people who believe that we evolved from monkeys.... Lets say there is no God, and there has never been... Where did you come from (other than the obvious of your mothers womb) where did people come from... well the best science can explain it is SOOOOOOOOO farfetched its just hilarious... This is what they basically imply: We are evolved from what used to be a mere bacteria, in perfect conditions,, like Domino explained before,, (and its number of how many things can go wrong is infinite..thats and abstract concept which im sure your aware of) then this bacteria evolved from its state of larva type of creature to something that has legs, maybe like a worm.. and long story short, it kept evolving to monkeys to this and that,, and eventually settled in as us,, human beings.... can anyone say they seriously think that other than this being impossible, believe in this.. Why we not evolving now, why we not growing and arm, cause sometimes i can really use it at work,, why we not growing and extra fingers so we can type faster, and since our appendix is of no apparant use to our bodies, why dont we stop growing thos.. LOL... its just nonsense,,, the theory of evolution is nonsense,,,. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 (edited) just read through this guys,,,, and youll hopefully understand that evolution is prooving to itself why evolution cant be right.... Edited January 10, 2004 by gevo27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 (edited) Domino, not a bad explanation with all that galaxy stuff.. i like... its what i try to get out of the atheists, and people who believe that we evolved from monkeys.... But we did evolved from a common encestory(monkeys and men). The point I was trying to make, is that suppose that there is no God, there should be many billions of universes to explain the fine tunning, and if universes appear from quantum bubbles from inflation, from nothingless which is undeterminated, there should be infinit numbers of universes... because if there were not it would be mathematically false to assume that from the undetermininstic nothingless there could be a determinated numbers of universes. Assuming that, there would be some universes which could admit a god, others mot... and it is your conscienceness which will be concentrated more on some universes over others based on your belief. I am saying that God exist and does not exist in the same time, so both believers and atheists would be wrong... because each will reject some realities(atheists the existance of a God, the believers the non-existance of a God). Edited January 10, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Gevo, I don't think evolution is wrong in principle (the details as it is known as Darvin's theory maybe needing fine tuning), there are plenty of evidences and it is also very logical. However, that doesn't mean that God doesn't exist and didn't create the universe. In my understanding, God did create everything there is including the evolution law, and the evolution in turn was responsible for creating man. Thus God indirectly has created our organism. The Genesis should not be taken litterally. On the other hand, the physical evolution of organisms didn't create the soul. The soul is what God has to do with directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 I actually hate this too. If you believe in God and that "heaven" is a better place, why are people always saying that God was with them, and spared them. Especially in an event like 9-11 when so many other "good" people died as well. It's just tacky, and you were just "lucky". Maybe God took all those people and left you here? Normally not a big deal, but in this case it seems insensitive and bad form. But then again it's a human reaction when surviving near death experiences, to automatically attribute it to God saving them, watching over them. Sev-mard, you are the only one who understood what I meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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