Anoushik Posted January 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) Another link about Atheism and Agnosticism. atheism Edited January 8, 2004 by anoushik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) Again Domino - so you do not believe in Atheism - then this is yoru relifgion -- it goes on and on forever - its a meaningless exercise in semantics. But it is notr a religion. I have offered up a number of definitions of religion. And when you talk belief - I mena - I bleieve that a red car is indeed not black. So have I now joined the religion of non belief in red cars being black? Thoth, you are contradicting yourself again. A red cars redness is a matter of perception and what is attached to it. Your point support exactlly what I affirm. For instance, your "red" could be my "orange" yet this orange I call it "red." Colors are based on a convention. This color I call it "red" others will call it "red" you and me could not have the same perception, but still we may called it that way. Religion is a different issue... it is a belief, a faith that concerns dvivinities, spiritualism etc... monotheism, pantheism, politheism, theism, atheism etc... are concerns those, some may believe of the non-existance of some things, this will still be a belief, a belief of the non-existance... those are about perceptions... and the conforminsm like in the case of what is "red" would be what is "religion" but in this cases we do not have the scientific bases. For instance in the cases of what red is, we have attached to it a spectral wave, and the lamda, the frequency etc... which are scientific in nature. Even this could be questioned, the minute someone start arguing about the redness, it will bring doubt. You on the other hand by using the word "certainty" are contradicting yourself by the fact that your answers to me is a contradiction, because if it were to be a certainty I could not bring a single valid argument which will be used as an anti-theses of your claim, because your theses would be a certainty, and that whatever I may say could not support my theses. Edited January 8, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 I also have provided definitions. Again they offer opinions. And fgunny the first guy talks of when someone is unsure of their belief - or thinks that there muight be othe rpiossibilities - then that is not belief....well I have always said that I am open to the possibility of some undeternmined//unspecified overarching cosmological force(s)...or that in fact perhaps there is something guiding or what have you - (so perhaps I am more truly agnotsitc)..but anyway -- I feel pretty confident that there is no God - certaionly no God as others believe - i find the whole concept to be quite absurd...still this in no way means that i have crafted a religion from such... Thoth, you still use the word certainly... which is supposed to be against your theses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 yet I dispute your claim as well Domino - so i say that you are wrong - and there we are...it is all a meaningles argument anyway. And please go back to my forst pst here where i have offered up several definitions of religion - none of which can supprt Atheism as a religion...I mean who di I tithe to anyway and such? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 yet I dispute your claim as well Domino - so i say that you are wrong - and there we are...it is all a meaningles argument anyway. And please go back to my forst pst here where i have offered up several definitions of religion - none of which can supprt Atheism as a religion...I mean who di I tithe to anyway and such? I havn't denied that you have providen definitions, the same came on the forum which I posted the link. The point here is that you affirmed with and said that it was "certainly" not a religion. If it was to be certain, I could not bring a valid anti-theses, which I did. Don't forget there is only 7 certainties that exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) But doesn't an agnostic say, "Maybe there is..." (ambivalent) and an atheist says, "I don't care!" - or is it "No there isn't a god"? In principle an atheist say there is no God, while an agnostic say he don't know. Edited January 8, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Anoushik, are you sure that there is nothing else than the material world? Yes, Sasun, now I am quite sure. I have never really been religious - I hate the idea of worshipping God or fearing God, and as young as ten years old I was questioning about it - and this past few weeks I have become very sure that nothing really exists beyond the material world. I am sure the idea of multiple universes, lol Domino, had something to do with that. The only problem that I had rejecting God or "gods" was because I was thinking how could anything have been created just by itself? But science is advancing so much, and if we just think about the theories science has given us we can find other alternatives about the origin of our existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 OK, Anoushik, are you a scientist? Most scientists are agnostic, that is they are not sure if there is God or not, or other worlds. Some scientists like Enstein are believers of God. So on what basis are you sure? All I can say is that yours is a belief, and your reasons are very subjective I should say. You don't like to worship God, so you conclude that there is not God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 No, Sasun, I'm not a scientist. Of course my beliefs are very subjective. Everyone's belief is subjective when it comes to religion. Until last year I believed in God, but I didn't care for him. My believe was that there is a God who had created the Universe, but he either wasn't all-powerful or he wasn't omni-benevolent (all good? I don't know how to say that). Now, why should I care for such a God? Also, let's say our world was different and everyone was happy because the God was all-powerful and all good and wished for everyone's best, still, why should I worship Him? Was He really that conceited and selfish that He had just created us so that we would obey Him and worship Him like puppets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 (edited) Yes, Sasun, now I am quite sure. I have never really been religious - I hate the idea of worshipping God or fearing God, and as young as ten years old I was questioning about it - and this past few weeks I have become very sure that nothing really exists beyond the material world. I am sure the idea of multiple universes, lol Domino, had something to do with that. The only problem that I had rejecting God or "gods" was because I was thinking how could anything have been created just by itself? But science is advancing so much, and if we just think about the theories science has given us we can find other alternatives about the origin of our existence. If I can convince just one, my effors are not vain. I think that you are not looking at the multiple universe thing from the interesting perspective. What I mean, is that if there is no God, there should be necessarly infinit numbers of Universe if this universe is not infinit... with every possible combinations... if this is true, a problem arises, the problem is that if every combinations that man could consieve, in some of them there is a God, therefore there should be Universes admitting such possibilities... With my conception you can not think of something that can't exist, what can't exist you can not think about it, each realities are just possibilities. So, telling that there is no God will be as wrong as saying there is one... you don't believe in a God, it does not exist for you, you believe, it exist for you etc... You are serrounded by every possibilities, and your mind filter few of them... like a TV, where you decide to watch a channel over others... in this cases there is infinit numbers of channels. The material world is the consequences of the interaction between an observer and something observed... this interaction creats conscienceness and the level of conscieness creats the dimensions you live in by doing such, matter is created as something "present" as opposit to nothingless... Edited January 8, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Sasun, I'm not sure that the Vatican isn't being and hasn't been a political entity itself. If not the Vatican, whom to trust with Roman Catholicism? It was the Holy See that operated the "rat line" for the expatriation of Nazis and the Ustashe, and the cardinal Stepinac the Vatican beatified recently for "standing up for Jews" was actually a person the Serbs knew for his being a chaplain to the regime that annihilated hundreds of thousands of Serbs. The "rat line" that the Ustase escaped with, the Vatican argues, was "only" run by a Croatian priest in it - right, it's run right through a seminary in the Vatican, and the Vatican is not to blame. In the case of Nazis, it's even worse, because the Vatican can't wriggle out of it with "it was a German priest right out of one of our seminaries"... And what about the Inquisition? If you really want to tell me that Christianity has nothing to do with these, then please do not defend Catholicism and the Vatican, OK? I however have to look to the Vatican for Christianity and I have no choice other than to look not at what Christianity was meant to be but what it has become, much in the same way as I do for Islam - none of the "it was originally a religion of peace" is going to take away the fact that Islam is what it is today, save for a bunch of well-intentioned but questionable characters. BTW, the way I look at it is - atheism is lack of belief - period. Stormig, I don't know of the historical accuracy of what you are saying, so I will take your word. But that's beside the point. You can criticize religious establishments all you want for their policies and wrongdoings, however those are not arguments against religious beliefs. Vatican is not the establisher of Christianity, it is only a follower and maintainer. The establisher is Jesus Christ, and Christian beliefs are above all what he has tought. So I don't understand why you have to look at Vatican rather than look at the origin. By the way, Vatican has changed, too, but true Christian beliefs are the same as they were before. Anyway, it is your choice as to where to look for Christianity, but in my opinion it is misguiding to take Vatican's historical record as the message of Christianity or Catholicism. The funny thing is that such arguments are used in support of atheism as morally more acceptable than religion, but if you look at most values that atheists are holding those originate from nowhere else but religious teachings (such as peace, love, altruism, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 No, Sasun, I'm not a scientist. Of course my beliefs are very subjective. Everyone's belief is subjective when it comes to religion. Until last year I believed in God, but I didn't care for him. My believe was that there is a God who had created the Universe, but he either wasn't all-powerful or he wasn't omni-benevolent (all good? I don't know how to say that). Now, why should I care for such a God? Also, let's say our world was different and everyone was happy because the God was all-powerful and all good and wished for everyone's best, still, why should I worship Him? Was He really that conceited and selfish that He had just created us so that we would obey Him and worship Him like puppets? Anoushik, if you admit that your belief is subjective then I am left to wonder how you could be sure. Perhaps you want to say that you strongly believe in that, that's a different thing. The concept of God as a dicator is outright wrong. God doesn't force you do anything. We should appreciate that we are free not to worship God while God is all powerful and can easily force us do whatever he wants to. But that never happens. We should worhip God because He deserves it being the highest and most beautiful thing ever, and for many many other virtues. It is not an obligation, but it is beneficial for our own sake to worship. True happiness cannot be without worship. God is not a separate being but our highest self, so there is no inferiority in worshipping. I could tell much about this but ... you should have it in yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 from my point of view- there are some things that can be explained/proven and some things that cannot--but it doesnt mean that they do not exist--you can not prove that it exists but at the same time you cannot disprove that it does not exist--just a matter of how one percieves things......there are some things that should be left a mystery in life---IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 if you can't prove that something exists, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. likewise, if you can't prove that something doesn't exist, it doesn't mean that it exists. therefore, you cannot force people to believe "because there is a higher being out there." that is like defining the term "juvenalian satire" the following way: a form of satire.. well, what IS satire... you get the basic idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 The concept of God as a dicator is outright wrong. God doesn't force you do anything. We should appreciate that we are free not to worship God while God is all powerful and can easily force us do whatever he wants to. But that never happens. We should worhip God because He deserves it being the highest and most beautiful thing ever, and for many many other virtues. It is not an obligation, but it is beneficial for our own sake to worship. True happiness cannot be without worship. God is not a separate being but our highest self, so there is no inferiority in worshipping. Sasun, I don't understand what God you're talking about. The problem is we haven't defined what or how God is. Are you talking about the Judeo-Christian God? I am talking about that God and because the Church has failed to show me any evidence or rational reason of His existence I don't believe He exists. But I used to believe in a higher being. Maybe there is a higher being apart from the material world we know, but I won't call it God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Sasun, I don't understand what God you're talking about. The problem is we haven't defined what or how God is. Are you talking about the Judeo-Christian God? I am talking about that God and because the Church has failed to show me any evidence or rational reason of His existence I don't believe He exists. But I used to believe in a higher being. Maybe there is a higher being apart from the material world we know, but I won't call it God. Doubting is the starting point of knowledge, this was what Descartes was keep saying. Actually, there is a higher being for those that beieve there is one. They are TVs on a channel where there is a higher being. Keep something in mind, you can not believe something that can not exist... you believe something because this believe is a result of a connection of your brain... the believe is associated with connections... those connections exist... they are like transistors, capacitors, condensers etc... the brain is a TV tunner. The you is just a possibility that exist, and the brain has selected this you among infinit yous... OK! I am changing the subject... but what I am trying to say, is that God really exist for those that believe of his existance, and God really doesn't exist for those that don't believe of his existance... some channels don't include God, others do include it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Doubting is the starting point of knowledge, this was what Descartes was keep saying. Nice Domino, I agree True personal story related to this discussion. About fifteen years ego friend of mine asked me to go skiing with him. Long story short he was speeding down on a snowy curvy maintain road (Big Bear) and the idiot pressed on the breaks needless to say for what seemed an eternity the car sled towards the gorge head on. All I could think was GOD let me live-I am too young to die. For some miracle the road bumper got stuck under the car and it prevented the car from killing all four of us inside. From that day on I asked repentantly why did I an atheist at the time asked God for help. I was changed not that I joined a religion or a cult but profoundly realized that simply there is much more to life then plain materialism. I do not practice anything but when I paint I feel the God within…Another footnote I went to Rembrandt’s exhibition recently and I was at the present of a great soul, true believer. He famously said that all is spirit and I believe that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Yeah Armat ... if all fails then you turn to God as the last resort, yet God never asked anything in return Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Sasun, I don't understand what God you're talking about. The problem is we haven't defined what or how God is. Are you talking about the Judeo-Christian God? I am talking about that God and because the Church has failed to show me any evidence or rational reason of His existence I don't believe He exists. But I used to believe in a higher being. Maybe there is a higher being apart from the material world we know, but I won't call it God. Anoushik, there is only one God and I am talking about that God We cannot define God but we can try to understand and have a very little knowledge of him. Some of our little knowledge of Him: omniscient, omnipotent, compassionate, infinitely vast, infinitely wise, infinitely beatiful, infinitely humble, infinitely luminous, creator and maintainer of the universe, giver of life and death.... who exists everywhere but can be seen nowhere, who never had a beginning and will never have and end, etc... the list can go on and on... this is the God I am talking about The church or anyone else cannot prove the existence of God if you don't want to believe. But if you want to find God you can and you will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Armat, see, that's what I don't like about religion. When the Twin Towers fell during Sep. 11, aside from firefighters, only one person was pulled off from the rubbles. She said that she had prayed to God to help her and because of God's help she survived. And from that day on she has gone to Church every Sunday and has become very religious. So the rest of the 2000 people who died didn't ask any help from God? That's why they deserved to die and leave their families hearbroken? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Anoushik I can't answear you directly since words are not adequate .I will in my own way. Rembrandt's family life was marked by misfortune. Between 1635 and 1641 Saskia gave birth to four children, but only the last, Titus, survived; her own death came in 1642- at the age of 30. His personal life, however, continued to be marred by sorrow. His beloved Hendrickje died in 1663, and his son, Titus, in 1668- only 27 years of age. Eleven months later, on October 4, 1669, Rembrandt died in Amsterdam. I don’t know why this post but I just love this man. What a great human soul. To continue to believe in God and continue to paint even though losing both wives and all the children will break any man but he created great masterpieces even when his life was full of sorrow and misery. One only need to look at his portraits the later years and all is clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectra Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 I think god exist, I have seen him in my dream. The picture was as follows: I was in Ejmiatsin, the place where I was born and raised, and it was a night, the stars were falling down and a men with a beard was slowly coming towards me, towards the earth. His face was very similar to Vazgen I Catholicos of all Armenians. Then he touched my head and then I don't remember the rest. But right the next day I went to Surb Mariam Astvatsatsin church. I love god and I love Jesus! Astvats is very kind and Astvatsatsin is kinder. I think god has played a major role in Armenians life. In many battles we have been united and unanimously fought with the enemies, just because we were Christians. I think that every Armenian should be a Christian. Anoushik, I agree it is your opinion to express your emotional feelings, but think that we're losing our national look in Diaspora, don't you think we have lost already a lot of Armenians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Armat, thank you. Because just like you feel when you look at this painting I feel the same when listening to J. S. Bach's Chaconne for solo violin. I can feel how Bach put his love for God into that work. It's a beautiful piece. But Armat, it's possible for someone to be as devout to humans as one could be to God. I don't believe in God because I have no reason to believe in Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Spectra, Christianity has played an important role in Armenian history, but times have changed. If you think about it, no one is really religious. True Chrisitians really should serve humanity, because Jesus said that we should see Him in every person, and just as we love Him and want to serve Him we should do so towards each other. Yet people only remember God out of selfishness, when bad things or extraordinary good things happen to them, and suddenly they remember that they are religious. As far as helping others, everyone thinks others should take care of themselves, and if it's possible, use others to benefit them. Armenians are especially good at this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheekY Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 anoushik are you like that too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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