Canadian Genocide Bill - It PASSED

[DominO123]

Here it is.

 

Law no. 2001-70:

 

France publicly recognizes the Armenian Genocide of 1915.

 

There is all the text attached to it, but I just have it in French, but it seems that the actual law is just this line.

Edited April 24, 2004 by Fadix

[MJ]

Thank you Domino. Good timing - I just came in and was about to run out again.

Could you post the entire text (Canadian Recognition), please?

 

From what you have posted

 

"That this House acknowledge the Armenian genocide of 1915 and condemn this act as a crime against humanity."

 

I cannot get who has committed the act of genocide and who is being condemned.

 

Unless new details emerge, I guess it would be safe to conclude that the Canadian parliament, copying the French Senate, has recognized Armenians as victims of a genocide and has said, "OK, here are a couple of drops of sympathy, now leave us alone with your masochistic harassments."

[DominO123]

MJ, this is the whole text of the motion. True, the Turks are not even mentioned here, neither Turkey or the Ottoman. I find that stupid if you ask me, but it was that, or it would have the motion rejected. Edited April 24, 2004 by Fadix

[ED]

MJ, Domino, could this be it?

 

http://www.ancsf.org/armenian-genocide/resolutions.htm

 

Canada - Senate

Resolution

1st Session, 37th Parliament,

Volume 139, Issue 124

June 13, 2002

Whereas on April 24, 1915, the Ottoman Turkish authorities arrested, and later executed, over 2300 prominent leaders of the Armenian community in Istanbul, without cause or reason, but for their race and religion, signaling the beginning of the first genocide of the 20th century;

 

Whereas using the First World War as a cover for their operations, Ottoman Turkish authorities ordered and carried out the systematic slaughter of Armenians living in six provinces of Eastern Anatolia and Cilicia, in an effort to exterminate the Armenian presence in those regions;

 

Whereas the Ottoman Turkish authorities exiled the survivors of the massacres from their homes and native lands;

 

Whereas the historical record clearly demonstrates that the events occurring between 1915 and 1918 that resulted in the massacre and exile of the Armenian population of Eastern Anatolia and Cilicia constitutes a genocide as defined by international customary law and by the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide of December 11th, 1948;

 

Whereas the government of the Republic of Turkey distorts the historical record and denies that the Armenian Genocide took place;

 

Whereas the parliaments of Argentina, Belgium, France, Greece, Italy, Lebanon, Russia, Sweden, Uruguay and the European Parliament and the World Council of Churches have condemned the massacres of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire and recognized them as constituting a genocide;

 

Whereas the Armenian Genocide has also been recognized by the National Assembly of Quebec, the Legislative Assembly of Ontario and the Canadian Council of Churches;

 

Whereas thousands of Armenian Genocide survivors and their descendants now reside in Canada as Canadian citizens and enrich Canada's multicultural heritage;

 

Whereas Canada is a country which prides itself on the rule of law and of the respect of human rights and liberties;

 

Whereas April 24th has become a symbolic date of remembrance for Armenian-Canadians and for people of Armenian origin all over the world;

 

Whereas the resolution of the Armenian Genocide issue could help peacefully resolve several long-lasting conflicts in the South Caucasus

 

Be it Resolved

 

That this house calls upon the Government of Canada:

 

a.) to recognize the genocide of the Armenians and to condemn any attempt to deny or distort a historical truth as being anything less than a genocide, a crime against humanity.

 

and

 

b.) to designate 24th of every year hereafter throughout Canada as a day of remembrance of the 1.5 million Armenians who fell victim to the first genocide of the 20th century.

Edited April 25, 2004 by Edward

[DominO123]

No Edward, the motion I quoted was really all it was about. What you posted is the "resolution" by the senate and its "recomendation" for the house of common.

 

The Senate already recognised the genocide.

Edited April 25, 2004 by Fadix

[MJ]

MJ, this is the whole text of the motion. True, the Turks are not even mentioned here, neither Turkey or the Ottoman. I find that stupid if you ask me, but it was that, or it would have the motion rejected.

Thanks, Domino.

 

I don't think it is stupid, though. It is just a reaction to the disgusting self-perception and identification of a bunch of stupid people to get them off your back. [For clarity, it is not the Parliaments of foreign countries that I am disgusted with but the people for whom being victims of genocide or whatever is a sort of badge of honor. ]

[MJ]

Edward,

 

Thank you. I think your referral reinforces an earlier point of mine.

 

I also briefly browsed the ANCA web site resolutions per your link. It seems that some of the resolutions have more acceptable language (Belgian for example), while the language of French resolution, which is still not completely referenced, is one of a mockery. But even that is a subject of exaltation for some Armenians. After, France recognizes us as victims of genocide. What a pity, they didn’t refer to us as “Hungry Armenians.” But that is besides my point, which is not about France or Canada. It is about Armenians (see my previous post) for whom being victims of "the first genocide of the 20th century," being the most "victimized" people and building the "largest genocide museum in Washington" is their most important “accomplishment.”

 

I also wonder why ANCA (and others for that matter), hasn’t provided the full texts of resolutions.

[wh00t]

MJ,

 

It's the ultimate paradox: the day Turkey recognizes the Genocide will be the day Armenians begin to cease to exist, thus completing the annihilation.

 

A most pathetic uniting fiber.

[MJ]

Wh00t,

 

Though I understand your point and if you rephrase it I would agree to a large degree, I disagree with what you have said above the way you have said.

 

The existence of Armenians doesn't depend on what Turks recognize or don't but whether Armenians will be able to create a country, which offers a purpose for existence for Armenians - be it in Armenia or Diaspora.

 

At this time, unfortunately, (and for very long time spanning centuries) Armenians of Diaspora, [primarily,] don't exist on such capacity. They exist only on a capacity of an oppressed Turkish minority hurt by the historic “unequal” treatment and the denial of its memory and fully satisfied with the bumper sticker declarations.

 

And I agree with your assessment of the unifying factor. But I don't blame the common people for it. I blame the repugnant Diasporan Armenian establishment and its nomenclature intelligentsia, such as Sasounians, Balakians and other misunderstandings.

Edited April 26, 2004 by MJ

[Vigil]

It's the ultimate paradox: the day Turkey recognizes the Genocide will be the day Armenians begin to cease to exist, thus completing the annihilation.

 

I am just curious, you see I talk to a lot of individuals that either think that the AG is a waste of time or say the same thing you are saying in that by actually getting it recognized Armenians will all of sudden just disappear.

 

I always sit there in my room and somtimes just wonder why you would think that Armenians are only "keeping the culture alive" only because they want to get the genocide recognized? That is a pretty "simple" analysis, which ranks up there with the idoicy of stating that "I do not want to take time preserving my culture because I think we are eventually going to go extinct", which is only true if one does not "preserve the culture". So, for you to state that we are just "staying Armenian" to get the genocide resolved is pretty inconsistent in that you think the only roadblock Armenians face is the genocide, when in fact after the genocide is resolve there is so much else we can contribute our time and force to fix.

 

Armenians can design the greatest marvels of civilization for "otars", but yet when it comes down to doing somthing for ourselves we constintly hit a wall. I believe that part of the reason we tend to do this as Armenians is because we feel that we are always "bound to fail", when in fact we have been beating the odds for almost 4000 years and for you to state that we will not be able to face the "new age" is a bit short sighted when we have faced far worse encounters.

 

However, do I think the leadership "sucks a$$", yes I do, but the only way you can change it is by stepping up to the plate and demanding the change. So, by you just constantly complaining, but yet not showing a initiative in changing the direction of Armenia is a bit counter productive. Instead, I think young Armenians like you and I are very capable in creating a new Armenia and in fact are living in a world that posses the tools that we would require.

 

For instance I think the first infostructure that needs a facelift is the church. First of all we need start making it a point that if you are Armenian, but for some strange reason do not hold Christian beleifs, you are still welcome in the community. Remember the Armenian golden rule, which is that we were Armenians before we were Pagans and well before we were Christians, Muslims, and Jews. Even though the lattar 2 may only represent a small number of Armenians, nevertheless, they should still feel welcome.

 

Like I have said before having "old folk" playing "bingo" on saturday night is a bit "useless", but instead allowing the youth to use the ficilites and buildings for our ends is a much better investment. For instance volleyball courts, basketball courts, and etc. should be put up in order to bring the youth together.

 

Our religous centers can be a used as a central hub for the Armenian youth and in fact can even be used to teach the next generation a bit of our rich history. For instance instead of learning about how the "Jews are the chosen people of God", we can instead redirect our time to teaching things that relate to Armenians like our history. Eventually, this will make our chruch a pioneering enterprise among the other religions and eventually will usher in a new age of "Armenianism".

 

Nevertheless, me telling this to the likes of you is useless mainly because you wil just shrug and continue the crux argument of the "invitiablity of extinction", when that is hardly the case nor has the situation degressed so far.

 

Over the course of my 20 years of existence I have made many mistakes, but also have gained knowledge in return. One of the things that I have learned is that once your mind gives up, the rest is history. This is one of the main reason why the Armenian youth is drifting away. Instead of encountering adults with will power to survive the Armenian youth encounters sloth like adults. These adults besides ruining it for themselves infect the youth with their over blown theories, when in fact fail to realize that we have faced much worse.

 

I honestly believe that the ball right rest in the court of the Armenian youth. Either they will wake up and see the world for what it is or else will just end up being slaves for "otars". Remember, just like in nature, society also contains a food chain and in this food chain you can either be the race on top or the race on the bottom.

 

By the way this idea of being slaves of "otars" is more consistent with Armenians rather than the whole "inivitablity" crux. All that we have created on the soils of other lands remains, but tragically what we built on our soil crumbles ever century or so.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[Anoushik]

It's the ultimate paradox: the day Turkey recognizes the Genocide will be the day Armenians begin to cease to exist, thus completing the annihilation.

I agree with much that Vigil has written above, and would also like to add that Armenians - as a culture - still have a lot of unresolved issues, like gaining our lands back. Not only did we lose a big number of Armenians, but we also lost 90% of our lands. The recognition of the Genocide is not the only unifying factor for the Armenians, but it's the overall struggle of our existence that ensures that we keep surviving as a culture, and now, as a nation. And I believe that after the recognition the goal of the Armenians will be to work towards getting our historic lands back.

[THOTH]

Anoushik....not that i don't have great sympathy for your sentiment -i do - but I do not see it manifesting in any practical way outside a war of (re)conquest that at this point in time Armenia/Armenians cannot hope to win. Along the lines of a related Genocide recognition discussion going on on the forum now - do we (as Armenians) also work towards other disenfranchised peoples getting "their" lands back to - beginning with the various native American Indian tribes,...(and the list goes on)? And what are lands really? yes there are many places in Anatolia (and Eastern Anatolia proper) that have/has great significance to us...and its painful to see these lands occupied by others - in part due to Armenians being swept away..but in practical terms - with Armenians fleeing the land we now have, and other Armenians (such as most of us) who live very nice lives in much more hospitable places - etc - who is really goign to inhabit these places? ..and what do we do with the (innocent) people who are there now? I don't think that there are really good answers to these questions. Yes - we can say, think, even believe certain things...but that does not make it right...when i think of genocide recognition (by Turkey & the Turks) and (eventual) reconcilliation...I think of an environment where Armenians are not pariah to Turks, where the past can be properly recognized and understood (by all sides) and where it might be possible for Armenians to perhaps settle again in certain areas, preserve certain structures, and for the Turks (and the world) to recognize the legacy and work to perserve it...and perhaps to allow access or even transfer ownership of certain areas - such as Ani and perhaps all/part of Ararat to Armenian control or at least unrestricted access (a real dream even this...but at least one that might be possible with some concievable future enlightenment). But I don't hold my breath over any of this - and less so on actually gaining any historical Armenian lands back - its just not at all likely or in any way practical..short of additional bloodshed...and even there without much real hope (even if it were worth us performing the sort of atrocities that likely would be required to clear the lands of those who now inhabit it)...think about it...

[Anoushik]

Thoth, I don't want to compare the Jewish Holocaust with the Armenian Genocide but I want to give an example. The horrible events that took place in the Jewish Holocaust happened in Germany, a place that hadn't been historical Jewish homeland. As a result of the Holocaust Israel was created and given to the Jews. The Armenian Genocide took place in historic Armenia. Our ancestors had lived there since the beginning of the Armenian culture and they continued to live in their homeland until they were massacred. Well, the world not only denied these massacres as a genocide, but we permanently lost our lands. Now we have a tiny portion of our historic country left. Of course I don't mean that we should go to war - it would be pointless. But we should always stay alert for changes in world politics, be aware that maybe somehow we might be able to gain our lands back. One way to do this would be if a third world war took place - again, I'm not advocating war, much less a world war, but it's a possibility... Why do we need to get back the lands? Because the best country for Armenians to live in and truly preserve the Armenian culture is Armenia.

[THOTH]

Anoushik...regardless..please consider these words of wisdom...

 

There is a small area of land in Asia Minor that is called Armenia, but it is not so. It is not Armenia.

It is a place… There are only Armenians, and they inhabit the earth, not Armenia, since there is no Armenia…

There is no America and there is no England, and no France, and no Italy. There is only the earth…

 

William Saroyan - Inhale and Exhale 1936

 

 

 

My birthplace was California, but I couldn't forget Armenia, so what is one's country?

 

Is it land of the earth, in a specific place? Rivers there? Lakes? The sky there?

 

The way the moon comes up there? And the sun? Is one's country the trees, the vineyards, the grass,

 

the birds, the rocks, the hills and summer and winter? Is it the animal rhythm of the living there?

 

The huts and houses, the streets of cities, the tables and chairs, and the drinking of tea and talking?

 

Is it the peach ripening in summer heat on the bough? Is it the dead in the earth there?

 

Wiliam Saroyan - Antranik and the Spirit of Armenia, 1936

 

 

I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose wars have all been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, literature is unread, music is unheard, and prayers are no more answered. Go ahead, destroy Armenia. See if you can do it. Send them to the desert without bread or water. Burn their homes and churches. Then see if they will not laugh, sing and pray again. For when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a NEW ARMENIA.

[Vigil]

There is a small area of land in Asia Minor that is called Armenia, but it is not so. It is not Armenia. It is a place… There are only Armenians, and they inhabit the earth, not Armenia, since there is no Armenia…There is no America and there is no England, and no France, and no Italy. There is only the earth…

 

THOTH, why do you and individuals like you tend to think that we live in this imaginary world consisting of one big "human race" when it is very obvious we do not? Let me ask does it make you feel better trying to be a "hippie" or do just like to be the "knight in shining armor"?

 

The only absolutes that I have come to recognize is that strength is gained in numbers and the exploitation of the weak minded by the strong willed is eternal. For you to come and "lie" to the youth about how we live in a Utopia, when in fact we sure as hell do not, is a bit premature and stupid. What ever you earn in your life there are people waiting to take it from you, which is not only limited to individuals, but also nations.

 

Even that small land, which we as Armenians somtimes tend to think insignificant, is being eyed by other nations. They are just waiting for us to lose hope and die so they can take what ever that remains. So please do not try to push for idealist ideas when in fact we do not live in this ideal world.

 

Almost 100 years have gone by since the genocide and yet those that preach about how we are "one big happy family" still do not have the humanity to let the dead rest in peace. As long as there are limited resources there equally will be a constant struggle to survive, which is evident by the so called "superpowers" constant ambitions to pillage resources from the weak.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[Vigil]

I would like to add that I am not trying to antagonize, pick on, or insult you, but I just find it very amusing that you want Armenians to just lay down their arms in good faith when the rest of the so called "human race" will never do the same. I think what has been our problem for so long is that we value such useless traits as compassion, valor, and honor, when in fact we should become more envious, coniving, and ruthless.

 

Like I have said before even God employs the ruthless and uses the most evil soul for the greater good.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[Sip]

Like I have said before even God employs the ruthless and uses the most evil soul for the greater good.

And we should act as God, eh?

[DominO123]

I will take the wisest decision here. That is staying completly out of this non-constructive discussion.

[Vigil]

And we should act as God, eh?

 

To be blind to obvious differences just for the sake of acheiving a "higher state of being" is just rediculous, when in fact even a benevalent God is not as naive as to completly eliminate all the choices before him even when some may seem cruel.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[Vigil]

I will take the wisest decision here. That is staying completly out of this non-constructive discussion.

 

The only non-constructive discussion is the one ignored for the sake of placing ones self above the obvious. You can try to see no evil, hear no evil, or speak no evil, but that certainly does not motivate others to do the same.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[DominO123]

The only non-constructive discussion is the one ignored for the sake of placing ones self above the obvious. You can try to see no evil, hear no evil, or speak no evil, but that certainly does not motivate others to do the same.

I only consider propositions.

 

So, what do you proposes. i have read your last few replies at least two times. OK! You are angry, I understand that. What do you propose? Invading Turkey to take the land back?

 

Do you live in Armenia? Why not placing all the energy at making Armenia a better place to live first?

 

Look, I am not giving my opinion regarding the land claims here. I just fail to see Anoushik and your point. Do you have any garanty that the diaspora will for the most part move to a newly formed Armenia consituated of what we have lost + present day Armenia?

 

Why not starting to leave for Armenia now? Why people are leaving Armenia? Will new lands change that?

[Vigil]

So, what do you proposes. i have read your last few replies at least two times. OK! You are angry, I understand that. What do you propose? Invading Turkey to take the land back?

 

No, I do not propose "invading Turkey" because frankly 3 million Armenians against 70 million is just suicide because at the very end war is about numbers. As far as our ancerstral land is concerned that has to be decided by international law, which incidently will be done once the genocide is recognized.

 

However, I personally do not think "taking back land" is a priority, but rather we need to redesign the entire dynamics of the Armenian ideology, which is at the heart of the problem. This can either be done by reconstructing our communities infrastructures or we can go into detail like deciding on what morals we should emphasis in our future generations.

 

Nevertheless, what is a priority is to try and remember that the genocide is not the only share of our problems that needs to be challenged. We have many other problems that can be solved if we continue to stay united and by staying united we are truly a force to be reckoned with.

 

I am not proposing anything except the obvious in that we need to quit thinking in terms of "one big happy family" and more along the lines of "Armenia for Armenia". I resent the fact that saps, yes they are saps, think that we live in this ideal society when in fact what fuels the most seemingly idealesque nation (In example "western nations") is ruthlessness, conivingness, and envy, which are all traits that we only reserve for our own kind instead of the opposite. We try to please "otars" as much as we try to please our kin.

 

Do you live in Armenia? Why not placing all the energy at making Armenia a better place to live first?

 

Me living in America and bank rolling Armenia with American dollars is the equivalent, but for me to remain in America and ignore Armenia completly is what the underlying question is here today. Do Armenians want to make Armenia work or do they just want to be another extinct race?

 

I see Armenians (Paskahye, Lepanhye, and Hye) spending their time remodeling their homes and going to Home Depot when instead they can use their funds for more fruitful ventures. How many times do Armenians want to build homes and then leave them behind on foriegn soil? For centuries we have felt more comfortable living in the safe haven provided by foreign lands for short periods of time rather than actually spending a few years creating a safe haven of our own.

 

The fact of the matter is Domino, we do have the energy, but tragically not for Armenia and rather reserve it for only ourselves and pleasing otars. I just get upset when you or anyone else state that we live in a ideal world, which just makes it worse, instead of telling the truth of how it is.

 

Look, I am not giving my opinion regarding the land claims here. I just fail to see Anoushik and your point. Do you have any garanty that the diaspora will for the most part move to a newly formed Armenia consituated of what we have lost + present day Armenia?

 

My comments were not related to land claims, but rather to how naive it is to think that on the world stage nations do not envy one another and actually are in a state of peace, when in fact they are constantly at war with each other economically, spatially, and at times physically. The same logic should be taught to Armenians in that yes, we should be polite to other nationalities, but never should we think that they can truly be trusted to defend our interests.

 

In life there is no guarantee except for one, which is that as long as you feel you have lost you will always you be the loser. However, I do sincerely believe that the Diaspora has intentions of moving back, but the problem is that the right steps need to be taken to welcome them. The government needs to be restructured in such a way that the Diaspora can at some point feel like they are part of Armenia. This is discussed more in detail in the citizenship thread. There are individuals like me that are just waiting for some extra income to buy a home in Armenia for the sheer fact of not allowing it to slip in the hands of alien intruders. This is the same reason why Jews donate funds to their diaspora, which allows them to relocate to Israel because they understand that as long as there is bodies in Israel it will never cease to exist.

 

Why not starting to leave for Armenia now? Why people are leaving Armenia? Will new lands change that?

 

My underlying point is not the drop everything and rush to Armenia because as much as you want to use as the hole in my argument, which is not the case, I would like to remind you that it would much benificial for me to stay here and as I stated earlier "bankroll Armenia through American dollars" just like how a certain other ethnic group across the globe is doing. I can instead work and invest in Armenia's economy just like how the Chinese, Jews, Indians, and Koreans do.

 

No, new lands are useless if people are not willing to invest in it. Israel is a desert, but yet its people are willing to invest in it and for me to state that "new lands will be a solution to our problem" is very short sighted because it is not the size of the land that is important, but rather how you use it.

 

Japan is an island, with no resources, but yet it is one of the world's greatest economic powers. 30 years ago nobody thought that Japan would amount to any significant status, but than came along Honda and virtually created the automotive industry into what is today.

 

The will of the people is what shapes a country, but the will of the people can not be united if they feel that everyone is their friend. Instead we need to harness any nationalism we have and direct it towards constructing a "New Armenia". This can only been done by reminding people how ruthless the world can actually be and because of this factor we need to stick together as often as we can.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Vigil

[hytga]

Just want to comment that i agree with Vigil. I think what you said is pretty much in most armenians' head, but the problem is that they have trouble making the connections and organizing things in priorities by their likelyhood and importance like you did.

[vava]

I've noticed that this discussion has turned largely off-topic... the original post was about the recoginition of the Armenian Genocide by the Canadian parliament, although quite unfortunately (and quite expectedly) the official government stance has not changed at all from the view that it was merely a 'tragic event'.

 

Feel free to post your views on where diasporan Armenian place their priorites in a new topic in the Diaspora forum.