bellthecat Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 In 1942 I think not. It wold be like people of today clearly remembering the Berlin airlift or some other event that occured in a previous generation. Sure some remember it - but as for most - particualrly in 1942 - well there were plenty of other thigs on their mind...and don't forget the great depression was the most recent news of all etc... Your are disproving your own point by mentioning the Berlin airlift. Or do you consider your memory to be so much superior to other Americans! It is not even a real memory for you, yet you know about it. Go to a real memory (and not even an adult memory) - are you liable to forget that the Vietnam war took place, even after the 30 years since it ended? Whether the American public remembered precise details of the Armenian massacres and deportations is not the issue - anyone in America who was an adult in 1915 would not have forgotten, a mere 25 years later, that massacres had happened to Armenians. Someone who can get access to the actual book should go and read it, check out the reasons why it was written, the tone of the writing, etc. You wrote "Lochner delivered a copy of the translation to the British Embassy in Berlin in 1939 and it exists in the British diplomatic Archives dated as such". If that is true, then why has this copy never been produced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 What the hell Hitler has to do with Armenian Genocide????? Connecting the Armenian genocide to the Jewish hollocaust is not a bad idea I don't think. People who have never heard of Armenians will be much more sympathetic to hear what happened as the Jewish event is sooooooo well publicized in the world. Hitler and his comment (alleged or not) simply provides that link. Who cares what the scholars think? Most often popular opinion is what shapes political landscapes and this is one means through which the popular opinion (of the masses at large) can be shaped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 This is so rediculous!!! I'm sorry but I don't understand what is the significance of Hitler's statement if it existed at all???? What? If he uttered that words, that means that there was a Genocide, if not then there was no Genocide! Hello!? What the hell Hitler has to do with Armenian Genocide????? That's actually my point. Let's stop useless efforts in trying to prove a lie that even if it were true would be of no significance! Obviously Hitler knew about the Armenian genocide - along with almost everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Well Sip, that part (the linking between the two) I understand. I also understand playing durty. This is my speaciallty. We tried to tell the world what has happened and the world refused to accept it, not because it didn't happen but because the oil and secutiry(arms) business. There is only one positive outcome of the (denial) which is moral superiority that the likes like Steve have difficulties to swallow it, and you can always shut their big mouths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Connecting the Armenian genocide to the Jewish hollocaust is not a bad idea I don't think. People who have never heard of Armenians will be much more sympathetic to hear what happened as the Jewish event is sooooooo well publicized in the world. Hitler and is comment (alleged or not) simply provides that link. Who cares what the scholars think? Most often popular opinion is what shapes political landscapes and this is one means through which the popular opinion (of the masses at large) can be shaped. And what happens when that popular public opinion of the masses is shaped by Azeri / Jewish propaganda into thinking that genocide was committed in Artsakh? In a world where only lies matter - the person who can pay the most for his lie to be propagated is the person who will be believed. That is why we should care what scholars think - they are part of the defense that stands betwen us and a world ruled by well-crafted, PR delivered, lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Well, with respect to the topic, Hitler never made such a statement. This is simply a matter of evidence. If you want to believe that he made it, it's your choice. Evidence indicates otherwise. Thoth stay on topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 As a philosopher, I feel inclined to agree with Anonymouse. Jean Chretien said it best: "A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 There is only one positive outcome of the (denial) which is moral superiority that the likes like Steve have difficulties to swallow it, and you can always shut their big mouths. Strange, isn't it, that those who criticise others for "moral superiority" seem to always think that they themselves are oh-so-superior to the rest of us. Gamavor, read this, and try and mend your ways and mend yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 "A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." Ahhh ..give me a cupboard-full of proven proofs and I'll never starve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 ... In a world where only lies matter - the person who can pay the most for his lie to be propagated is the person who will be believed. That is why we should care what scholars think - they are part of the defense that stands betwen us and a world ruled by well-crafted, PR delivered, lies. I agree with you Steve ... though I also know that wanting and knowing the importance of acknowledging the scholarly voice won't make it any match for the power of the popular belief. God knows how many times I have cringed hearing people say how materials with darker colors absorb more heat ... or how year 2000 was the beginning of the 21st century ... after a while one just gives up trying to swim up stream Edit: I don't know about the Hitler quote so my comments in this thread are not regarding the existence or fabrication of the original quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 God knows how many times I have cringed hearing people say how materials with darker colors absorb more heat ... You mean they don't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Hitler never made any public statements about Armenians. None at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 While I agree fully with Steve and others about the irrelevance of the quote, I want to make a couple of quick comments. As said earlier, the quote is reported by one reporter, but not corroborated by other reports. It is doubtful that it was fabricated as propaganda, since the victors would not mind using their own propaganda and had no motivation to question its veracity like they did in Nuremberg. The dismissal of that report says much more about how unimportant Armenians were and have been than anything about its veracity. In any case, the quote is irrelevant. As for Steve's constant criticism of Egoyan's inaccurate history. Egoyan went out of his way to avoid making a direct portrayal of history. The "typical" inaccuracies in Ararat are in the fictional Saroyan movie that Egoyan was mocking at a certain level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 (edited) Well, I read it, and while reading it I realized that it may very well be written for many Europeans. The most appaling thing for that comparison is the year - 1910. No doubt, it has it meaning for the Armenians too, probably more than anybody else. However, the moral superiority that I'm talking about comes not from our flawness. PS: During the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-1878 Karl Marx wrote to Engels, that he is staungly supporting the Ottoman Empire against the Russian imperialism, because of (NOTA BENE), "the high moral standars of the turkish peasants"!!! If you don't believe me just perform a standart surch on Google and you would find it. I hope you don't want to make me believe in the high moral standarts of the turkish peasants! Edited February 11, 2004 by gamavor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Well, with respect to the topic, Hitler never made such a statement. This is simply a matter of evidence. If you want to believe that he made it, it's your choice. Evidence indicates otherwise. Thoth stay on topic. In the words of den wolf - were you there? And I disagree that evidence says otherwise. And where am i off topic for you to say such? In fact you frequenty stray off topic in man y a thread - do you really wish for me to point out ever time that you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 In the words of den wolf - were you there? And I disagree that evidence says otherwise. You are misusing my words. Something hasn't happened until it has happened. You cannot assume guilty until proven innocent. It works the other way around. Tough luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 In the words of den wolf - were you there? And I disagree that evidence says otherwise. And where am i off topic for you to say such? In fact you frequenty stray off topic in man y a thread - do you really wish for me to point out ever time that you do? The thread specifically dealt with Hitler's statement. Unless there is evidence, you are going about this on faith. Weren't you also the one who argued against God and faith and reaffirmed your atheist position in the religion thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 hmmm so back to the topic...i actually got confused by all the distraction, so what were you guys discussing? hitler and....? can someone refresh my memory...i think it got thrown off topic too many times for me to remember.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Hitler's alleged statement of "Who today remembers the massacre of the Armenians". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 okay...great ...thanx and for that topic...im not sure but was it he who said that he would aid the turks into killing off all armenians leaving but one to be placed in a museum and exhibited? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 i found some information here about Hitler's take on the Armenian genocide..... http://www.armenian-genocide.org/statements/hitler.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 The problem with that is, it is based off an English translation of a German document, which may or may not have been mistranslated during the use of the IMT, since the IMT was nothing more than a show trial, accepting ex post facto, and no cross examination of witnesses, not to mention cherry picking which German documents they would use or not, in general a trial of the vanquished by the victors, hardly what I'd call 'impartial'. Anyone could have said anything really, but there is no hard evidence linking him. As Erich von Manstein pointed out in his memoirs, Hitler would never have used that sort of rhetoric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 I think Raphael Lemkin's studies are far more important than the mith about Hitler's statement. Lemkin's research is very well documented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 okay...great ...thanx and for that topic...im not sure but was it he who said that he would aid the turks into killing off all armenians leaving but one to be placed in a museum and exhibited? No, you are talking about the one that comes once in a year and has big white beard and nice pointed hat and a very attractive helper. Angel, common' Hitler was a teenager in 1915!!!!! I lost apetite! Can anybody abolish the education in USA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 No, you are talking about the one that comes once in a year and has big white beard and nice pointed hat and a very attractive helper. Angel, common' Hitler was a teenager in 1915!!!!! I lost apetite! Can anybody abolish the education in USA? yeah obviously i was not sure, therefore i asked if it was him, i was not impllying or justifying that hitler said that...i was not sure if i was remembering it right...please dont try to question my intelligence or even assume that im ignorant or even stupid...dont judge me if you dont know me....okay..sorry off topic but i had to say it...really upset me..because i try t oget focused and learn something, then people come along and make things personal or imply that since im asking a question-therefore i must be stupid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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