Is Hitler's statement true?

[Sasun]

the non-existant "Hitler statement"

Are you sure about this?

[THOTH]

Well gain Steve you shold just be silent when you know nothing..ie how are you to know what arguments I was able to bring and what my knowledge is concerning the Genocide...you don't...

 

In any event - for the record and for folks info this is a post I made in an argument regarding the Hitler quote "After all, who remembers now the extermination of the Armenians?" that I posted back in 2000 in response to some Turks who made similar faulty contention: (So Ok - you be the judge)

 

In his 1985 book “Hitler and the Armenian Genocide” Dr K.B. Bardakjian thoroughly establishes the credibility of Hitler’s statement “After all, who remembers now the extermination of the Armenians?” (note: we often see this quote stated in slightly different manner due to latitudes in the translation from the German – however, the gist of the quote is accurate in all versions) Additionally (and in doing so) Dr Bardakjain illustrates Hitler’s knowledge of the Armenian Genocide, through:

 

1) his trusted advisor Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter (stationed in Turkey during WWI),

 

2) as a result of the Tehlirian trial for the murder of Talat (which was held with much fanfare in Berlin in 1921 while Hitler was also there), and

 

3) through general knowledge of the plight of the Armenians in WWI which was well known by the Germans as a result of the hundreds of correspondences and publicity from Turkey to this regard during the First World War.

 

The following is an excerpt from the “Contents of Speech to the Supreme Commanders and Commanding Generals, Obersalzberg, August 22, 1939” which I have constructed based on one of the translations of the text of the original document delivered to Louis Paul Lochner days after the Speech. Lochner, an American Journalist in Germany with well known ties to the German resistance (to the Nazis) was known to have passed on many accurate German military and policy documents to the Americans and British in the early part of the war. He was present, and was interviewed (under oath) concerning the validity of the document, at the Nuremberg trials after the war and he testified that his source, Hermann Maassz had passed onto him a number of documents during these period which were all accurate and useful. The originator of the text is (with some certainty) thought to be Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of the Abwehr, Hitler’s military intelligence, who was witnessed (by another German officer at the speech – who later testified to this) too be taking notes. These two, who were horrified by its contents, conspired to preserve the notes and pass a copy along to other members of the German resistance. While the original notes have been lost – various translations and subsequent versions are known to be in existence. (and their source with Adm Canaris has been independently verified by Winfried Baumgart, a well known researcher in Nazi documents) One of these translations (from which I quote) now resides in the American Archives.

 

“Our strength consists of our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter – with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state.”

 

“I have issued a command….that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head (SS) formations in readiness…with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?”

 

“Poland will be depopulated and then settled by the Germans.”

 

“The little states cannot scare me. Since Kemal’s death Turkey is being governed by cretins and semi-idiots.”

 

“Be tough! Be without compassion! Act more quickly and more brutally than the others! The citizens of western Europe must shudder in horror.”

 

“The new method of conducting war corresponds to the new draft of the frontiers….”

 

 

And there you have it – what I consider to be the relevant passages. I shall follow with some further posts of Herr Hitler acknowledging his knowledge of the Armenian situation (and he and other Nazi’s expressing racists thoughts against Armenians) etc.

 

(and these now follow) -

 

Alferd Rosenberg, Chief ideologist of Nazism (the German Gokalp) stated: “Armenians are even worse than Jews” and called Jews and Armenians “the people of the wastes”

 

Hitler is quoted as saying: “Considering that only a pure consciousness of racism can ensure the survival of our race, we were constrained to introduce racial legislation in such a clear way that such legislation could eliminate all alien racial infection, and this infection is not caused only by Jews. In enlightening the German people with regard to this racial legislation, we should conceive of it as having the task of protecting the German blood from contamination, not only of the Jewish but also of the Armenian blood”

 

Seems strange that he would single out the Armenians – but like you said FJ – there is much in common between the two peoples and the Nazi’s were into this Eugenics thing where they measured characteristics (& twisted them around something fierce)

 

Hitler also is quoted as saying: “One of the most famous examples is the downfall of that people who were once so proud, the Persians, who now lead a pitiful existence as Armenians”

 

Apparently Hitler believed that Armenians were once the original Persians – and although they were clearly “Caucasian” they had fallen low by blending with Semitic peoples etc. – thus he saw Armenians as somehow “fallen” Caucasians.

 

It is also interesting how the Nazis saw Pan-Turanism as a threat (and of course an inspiration). Remember – it was the Nazis who returned Talat’s body in 1943 – attempting to curry favor with the Turks (many of whom were very interested in sharing Hitler’s vision). At the same time, the Nazi’s wished to use Pan-Turanist aspirations of the Turks to draw of Russian divisions in defense of the Caucuses (which never materialized) they were fearful of the potential for Pan-Turanism.

 

On 8 May 1942 Rosenburg, then minister of Axis occupied territories in the east reported on a series of discussions with Hitler:

 

“The Fuehrer…asked my opinion about the Armenians. I stated that Armenia was the best bolt between Turkey and the Aserbeidschan and thus could stop a Pan-Turanism movement towards the East. Generally speaking the Armenian people themselves are stationary, a people of farmers who had considerable industrial skill.”

 

Thus, the Nazi’s schemed both with the Turks (Ultimately unsuccessful due to considerable U.S. and British pressure) while fearing the potential competition of Pan-Turanism.

 

 

Adolph Hitler interview with Richard Breiting (who was poisoned by the Gestapo in 1937) , editor of Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten (a German daily newspaper) 4 May 1931: (excerpts)

 

“We must already be thinking of resettlement of millions of men from Germany and Europe. Migrations of people have always taken place”

 

“Are we really going to remain a nation of have-nots forever?” “ We have the capacity to rouse and lead the masses against this situation.”

 

“We intend to introduce a great resettlement policy;”

 

In 1923 little Greece could resettle a million men. Think of the biblical deportations and the massacres of the Middle Ages and remember the extermination (some texts translate as eradication) of the Armenians (some texts translate as Armenia).”

[bellthecat]

Are you sure about this?

Yes, I am sure about it. There is no record of such a statement.

[THOTH]

Yes, I am sure about it. There is no record of such a statement.

LOL

[THOTH]

This was from a folow on post I made in the discussion from 200:

 

There is sufficient evidence available however to accept – with reasonable accuracy (as reasonable as any acceptance of someone’s eyewitness accounts etc.) that in fact Hitler did say “After all, who remembers now the extermination of the Armenians?” (or something in German which translates to such). First, all accounts of this speech (or possibly/likely two speeches) are taken from notes of those who were present. The speech(s) were apparently not scripted. Each version has core common elements with varying degrees of detail and emphasis. The “Lochner” version with the Armenian reference is the most detailed transcription. While it was not accepted as direct evidence at Nuremberg – it was very well known and was accepted by members of the prosecution team as accurate and legitimate. (This has been attested to in interviews). Additionally, the intermediary who delivered the speech to Lochner (as well as Lochner himself) was/were interviewed (at Nuremberg) under oath and they attested to the accuracy and source. The prosecution team accepted these facts. The reason(s) the document was not submitted as evidence during the trial are two fold. First – the discovery of two versions of notes of the speeche(s) by the US Army (directly from German officers) – each containing the incriminating passages the prosecutors were looking for – and these made the “Lochner” version unnecessary. The other versions contained sufficient proof of pre-meditated aggression against the Poles to make the prosecutions case. These versions had no issues of concern as to source (even if the “Lochner” version had been proven such to the satisfaction of the prosecution) thus were less likely to be potentially challenged on a technicality – and the Nuremberg prosecutors wanted to limit any challenges of evidence. So, while they fully accepted the veracity of the Lochner version, it became unnecessary, thus was not included as direct evidence.

 

The second point regarding this document is that Lochner delivered a copy of the translation to the British Embassy in Berlin in 1939 and it exists in the British diplomatic Archives dated as such. To believe that either the Germans or the British somehow colluded (with Armenians or Armenian sympathizers) to include a non-existent reference regarding the extermination of the Armenians at this time is simply ludicrous and unbelievable. (where is the motivation and how did/would the Armenians be able to do such?) In fact, the “Lochner” document was the first and is still the most complete account of Hitler’s speech (s) to the Supreme Commanders and Commanding Generals, Obersalzberg, August 22, 1939. The Nuremberg prosecutors realized and accepted this.

[THOTH]

And if you don't believe me: From - Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Vol. 9, Number 1, Spring 1995, pages 1-22)"

 

 

"The remark attributed to Hitler is contained in a summary of Hitler's

speech to his generals about his plans to wage a ruthless war against Poland

on August 22, 1939. Within days, Louis P. Lochner of the Associated Press in

Berlin received from an "informant" a copy of the document, which is based on

notes taken by Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of Hitler's military intelligence. Lochner immediately brought the account to the attention of the

American and British embassies. He subsequently published the document in

translation in his book What About Germany? (New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1942), pp. 1-4.

 

The important issue is less the authenticity of the remark than what

lessons Hitler drew from the Armenian ease, and how these affected

his actions in Poland, and subsequently the decisions to annihilate

the Jews and Gypsies. Bardakjian provides evidence (pp. 25-35) that

Hitler was familiar with the Armenian genocide, believed that the

Armenians, like the Jews, were a "degenerate race," and was aware that

Turkey had been able to exterminate a people with impunity. The lessons he drew were even more pointed in his 1931 interview with

Richard Breiting of the Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten. Here he invoked

the destruction of the Armenians within a context of

deportation,

resettlement, and massacre as a means to providing "living space" for

Germany and the Aryan race. "Think of the biblical deportations and

the massacres of the Middle Ages . . . and remember the

extermination

of the Armenians." Hitler added: "One eventually reaches the conclusion that masses of men are mere biological plasticine." Quoted

in Bardakjian, p. 28, from Edouard Calie, Unmasked, trans. Richard

Barry (London: Chatto & Windus, 1971), p. 81."

[bellthecat]

There is no "original document"!

 

This whole "who remembers now the extermination of the Armenians" statement is an example of how if something is repeated often enough, in enough books, it becomes a "fact" regardless of whether any source document ever existed.

 

There are Turkish books, from the 1990s, which have been written to disprove the statement. There have also been Turkish books written to disprove the "pyramid of skulls photograph". Maybe there is one being written about the Siamanto poem as I write. This is what I mean by silly, pointless lies giving a platform for genocide denialists.

What does it matter if Hitler had never once mentioned the Armenian genocide. After all, he never once mentioned the Jewish genocide! Why keep repeating a lie? Why keep using a fake photograph when there are plenty of real ones? Why use a fake account of an attrocity when there are plenty of real eyewitness accounts? Answer these questions Thoth.

 

Steve

 

PS: on the Siamanto poem, not only has Egoyan falsely used it in Ararat to represent a real event from 1915, the performer Diamanda Galas has also used it falsely, quote "I will perform ... DANCE OF DEATH by the Armenian martyr Siamanto, which describes a Turkish immolation of Armenian brides in 1915, one of many events well documented". Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes truth. As a professional propagandist himself, Thoth will know this.

[THOTH]

I have commented on the Hitler quote and I think the evidence is plenty to establish its veracity (over your statement that you are sure that there is no record of such statement - LOL). I have no comment on the others - its is not I who is basing any argument on any of these other things. The Hitler quote is important if only to remind folks that a crime such as the Genocide of Armenians by the Turks could esicly happen again if the perpetrators are left unpunished and the crimes forgotten or covered up..seems simple enough no? (you do believe that this happened do you not? That there indeed was a Genocide? I mean there is no video footage around that shows death marches and Turkish soldiers bayoneting innocent women etc? And there are no documents as you say - that order such etc etc....?)

[THOTH]

There is no "original document"!

 

This whole "who remembers now the extermination of the Armenians" statement is an example of how if something is repeated often enough, in enough books, it becomes a "fact" regardless of whether any source document ever existed.

 

There are Turkish books, from the 1990s, which have been written to disprove the statement.

Funny Steve...yeah - Turkish books have been written to disprove this statement - Do you really want me to post quotes from them here - quotes that Turks have posted in these arguments? They are laughable. there only pont is that this quote/version was not used at Nuremburg - that is was rejected - but their reaoning is faulty as to why - and in fact they do not dispute that such a quote exists - at least in documents...What is interesting is how they can't explain why such a thing would be forged by Lochner and/or various Germans - in 1939? I mean such a propaganda machine the Armenians must have had eh?

 

I have preented the clear evidence - yet your response is only that a lie repeated often enough etc etc - well you are clearly wrong here - the document (albeit perhaps not the orignal notes in German - but multiple translations produced in 1939! exist...so please now admit yoru error...

[bellthecat]

the document (albeit perhaps not the orignal notes in German - but multiple translations produced in 1939! exist...so please now admit yoru error...

If the document exists, then give me its reference number. If it was indeed given to the British embassy in Berlin in 1939 then it would have been filed and catalogued.

[THOTH]

I'm sure that it is - but I don't have the book with me, however I am confident of the sources as provided (as is aprently the periodical - Holocaust and Genocide Studies)...I will see if I can rustle it up at some point though.

[THOTH]

Please do explain thoguh Steve why would anyone be making this up in 1939? I fail to understand any value in such a forgery at that time and considering the circumstances. Aditionally, the Lochner version of the speech was verified as accurate by independent review at the Nuremburg Trials (during discovery) - so what further proof do you want?

[ED]

If the document exists, then give me its reference number. If it was indeed given to the British embassy in Berlin in 1939 then it would have been filed and catalogued.

Steve you want a document references?

 

here

 

Statements on Record

 

 

Adolf Hitler

 

 

Chancellor of Nazi Germany (1933-45)

 

"Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

My decision to attack Poland was arrived at last spring. Originally, I feared that the political constellation would compel me to strike simultaneously at England, Russia, France, and Poland. Even this risk would have had to be taken.

 

Ever since the autumn of 1938, and because I realized that Japan would not join us unconditionally and that Mussolini is threatened by that nit-wit of a king and the treasonable scoundrel of a crown prince, I decided to go with Stalin.

 

In the last analysis, there are only three great statesmen in the world, Stalin, I, and Mussolini. Mussolini is the weakest, for he has been unable to break the power of either the crown or the church. Stalin and I are the only ones who envisage the future and nothing but the future. Accordingly, I shall in a few weeks stretch out my hand to Stalin at the common German-Russian frontier and undertake the redistribution of the world with him.

 

Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter — with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It's a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me.

 

I have issued the command — and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad — that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion , men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?

 

 

 

Kevork B. Bardakjian, Hitler and the Armenian Genocide (Cambridge, Massachusetts: The Zoryan Institute, 1985).

 

The text above is the English version of the German document handed to Louis P. Lochner in Berlin. It first appeared in Lochner's What About Germany? (New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1942), pp. 1-4. The Nuremberg Tribunal later identified the document as L-3 or Exhibit USA-28. Two other versions of the same document appear in Appendices II and III. For the German original cf. Akten zur Deutschen Auswartigen Politik 1918-1945, Serie D, Band VII, (Baden-Baden, 1956), pp. 171-172.

[bellthecat]

Steve you want a document references?

 

here

 

Statements on Record

No, you don't understand - I was wanting a reference for the ORIGINAL document, not a supposed quote from it written in a book. If the original document ever existed in 1939 then it must have been recorded somewhere.

[bellthecat]

Please do explain thoguh Steve why would anyone be making this up in 1939? I fail to understand any value in such a forgery at that time and considering the circumstances. Aditionally, the Lochner version of the speech was verified as accurate by independent review at the Nuremburg Trials (during discovery) - so what further proof do you want?

I suggest, as a starting point, looking at why Lochner's 1942 book "What About Germany?" was written. I somehow doubt that it was written to encourage American appeasment towards Germany!

[ED]

No, you don't understand - I was wanting a reference for the ORIGINAL document, not a supposed quote from it written in a book. If the original document ever existed in 1939 then it must have been recorded somewhere.

 

You got enough leads to fallow to the original, by the way what kind of documentation you are looking for? Audio tape, what I gave you was a transcript which was an exhibit at Nuremberg trials as a document of a statement; I don’t know what else you’re looking for.

 

I think you missed the last portion of my previos post, read again!

[THOTH]

I suggest, as a starting point, looking at why Lochner's 1942 book "What About Germany?" was written. I somehow doubt that it was written to encourage American appeasment towards Germany!

No Steve you don't understand - what value would it be to mention the Armenians? Other then this - what would be considered a minor and incosequential point to most of those taking notes at the time (and likely wjy they didn't include it) - the various (3) versions of the speech are nearly identical. Now are you trying to claim that Lochner made it all up for propaganda? Seems that the vast majority can be clearly seen to be factual...so what is the value added - propaganda wise against Germany - for the added bit concerning Armenians - a people that most Americans and whoever else - have never heard of..I mean why didn't he put somethign about - and next - after Poland and the rest of Europe - i will go after America and take all of their resources for the German people - etc etc....so you see Steve - no one can give any plausable reeason for this particular bit to be a forgery at all - tand the evidence clearly indicates that it is an accurate translation...etc etc

[ED]

THOTH, I envy you patient’s man, really

[bellthecat]

You got enough leads to fallow to the original, by the way what kind of documentation you are looking for? Audio tape, what I gave you was a transcript which was an exhibit at Nuremberg trials as a document of a statement; I don’t know what else you’re looking for.

The text you have given is a quote taken from a 1942 book. It is not a transcript. The document which this quote is supposedly based upon has never been produced, anywhere.

[bellthecat]

Seems that the vast majority can be clearly seen to be factual...so what is the value added - propaganda wise against Germany - for the added bit concerning Armenians - a people that most Americans and whoever else - have never heard of..

Jeez, the arrogance staggers belief. Almost EVERY ADULT in America would have heard of the Armenian massacres, it was reported everywhere. Ordinary Americans raised millions of dollars in aid for Near East Relief, supporting survivors of the genocide in 1915, and then the famine-ridded Armenian republic, from 1918 'til the early 1920s. The point of him mentioning it is precisely that - he is refering to an event that almost every American would know about.

[ED]

The text you have given is a quote taken from a 1942 book. It is not a transcript. The document which this quote is supposedly based upon has never been produced, anywhere.

has it ever accured to you it could have been distroyed in a last days of Nazi germany?

[THOTH]

Jeez, the arrogance staggers belief. Almost EVERY ADULT in America would have heard of the Armenian massacres, it was reported everywhere. Ordinary Americans raised millions of dollars in aid for Near East Relief, supporting survivors of the genocide in 1915, and then the famine-ridded Armenian republic, from 1918 'til the early 1920s. The point of him mentioning it is precisely that - he is refering to an event that almost every American would know about.

In 1942 I think not. It wold be like people of today clearly remembering the Berlin airlift or some other event that occured in a previous generation. Sure some remember it - but as for most - particualrly in 1942 - well there were plenty of other thigs on their mind...and don't forget the great depression was the most recent news of all etc...anyway - so you are trying to make a case that this is just all propoganda are you now..well i find this fact alone to be most interesting. And i stll do not at all buy the fact that any mentioning of Armenians - in 1942 would have any real value. Besides - once again - the document (translation) was entered into evidence at Nuremburg- and accepted as factual - this is documented. I fail to see its propoganda value at this time....

[THOTH]

has it ever accured to you it could have been distroyed in a last days of Nazi germany?

Yes Hitler burned it....he was obsessed with preventing any propaganda that might in any way help the Armenian cause!

[den_wolf]

Yes Hitler burned it....he was obsessed with preventing any propaganda that might in any way help the Armenian cause!

I suppose you knew him personally and were there when he did that? So THOTH, do tell me this, how is American propaganda against Nazism and Hitler (even nowadays, in any discussions about history) any different or better from the "evil" Nazi Germany propaganda?

[gamavor]

This is so rediculous!!! I'm sorry but I don't understand what is the significance of Hitler's statement if it existed at all???? What?

If he uttered that words, that means that there was a Genocide, if not then there was no Genocide!

Hello!? What the hell Hitler has to do with Armenian Genocide?????