den_wolf Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 I am so happy for you that you have your logical statements to comfot you and get you through the day...LOL If not logic, then I ask, what? Feelings? Certainly not. If I had relied on feelings to get me through the day, I would not have gotten past my teenager years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Of interest perhaps... http://www.zoryaninstitute.org/Books/book_...nd_armenian.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Note that if the life sentence were a hindrance to crime, we would've had a Utopia by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Thoth, let me ask you this. Since when Hitler is an authority with regard to Armenian Genocide? Don't you see the fallacy beyond it? Armenians were not victims of facshism. Armenians were victims of your beloved turks, that you visit frequently! Armenians were victims of their own stupidity, for letting their fate into the hands of barbaric nomads. Armenians were victim of militant Islam and pan-Turanist ideas. Amen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewish Friend Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Jewish Friend, that is a slippery slope fallacy. Moreover, it could be argued that genocide recognition is not a hindrance at all to future genocide attempts. Rwanda is a proof to that. And I could give a lot of other examples. That is true. Food for thought. All We Need is Love..Gotta love those Brits..God Bless the Beatles and Stones! YidKid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 11, 2004 Report Share Posted February 11, 2004 Can't you read mouse. That statement (of gamovor's) is entirely irrelevent. No one is claiming that Hitler is any kind of authority on the Genocide (I swear - exactly the same pointless "arguments" the Turks use...) But I should't count you to have any real understading of the point of this anyway (explained over previous posts)...it requires some feelings (empathy) as well as some smarts - that one cannot see the relevance - and that one cannot have empathy for the (very similar and tragic) plight of others..well it bespeaks an ugly racisim IMO ..or just plain ignorance. So whcih is it Mouse - perhaps a little of both. You don't care becuase they were Jews or just because they weren't Armenians - either way is sad - IMO. particualry because Armenians were very much the victims of racism (as were the Jews) - and there is a great many other similarities to their respective tragedies and histories (and I never said they were the same etc - so no need to go there). But is is far to simplistic (and just plain out incorrect) to say Armenains were simply the victims of barabaric nomads (how many years does one have to be sedentary to no longer be a nomad? ..or a "barbarian" necessarily), militant Islam (not true - Islam was only used as a tool to rile the masses and to emphasise differences..etc), and Pan- Turanism - (certainly a factor - but not the primary motivator - as the cards were already thrown - and again pan-Turanism was primarily a motivator and not at all deterministic). I would suggest reading Robert Melson's Genocide and Revoltion for addtional insights. I also wold consider the economic factors - certainy they played a great part (much as wioth the Jews in Erope during WW!!)...etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Also Anon and gamavor, you might want to note that Armenians were not only victims of 'barbarians'. These 'barbarians' got their genius ideas of deportation from our beloved Germans, because they were barbarians they could never have come up with ingenius plan themselves. I believe Admiral Usedom even admitted this after the war. And don't forget that Germans were already in WWI a very racist nation on a powerful expansion tour. The road to the Holocaust was long, but the basis was certainly there during WWI and even before WWI. German war philosophy didn't change that much overtime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 It was gamavor who initially misconstrued the talk of proof in the thread from proof of the existance of the statement to it being some kind of proof of the Genocide itself (i can't see how anyone could make this leap - so i am mystified)...anyway...cheers! It is not a misconstruction. People do use the "Hitler statement" to "prove" that the Armenian genocide happened. That is why that so called statement appears on so many Armenian genocide recognition sites and literature and in popularist media like the Ararat film. And the Turks have bothered to disprove not just because it is an easy fraud to uncover, but because the uncovering discredits everything else those propagating the fraud produce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 (edited) How can you use a quote from Hitler to 'prove' the genocide? That's right, you can't really. It is relevant because it shows something about the learning from genocide and the importance of it. If you can prove it or not does not matter. I firmly believe Hitler had the Armenian genocide in his head when he planned the Holocaust. Edited February 12, 2004 by gurgen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 (edited) It is not a misconstruction. People do use the "Hitler statement" to "prove" that the Armenian genocide happened. That is why that so called statement appears on so many Armenian genocide recognition sites and literature and in popularist media like the Ararat film. And the Turks have bothered to disprove not just because it is an easy fraud to uncover, but because the uncovering discredits everything else those propagating the fraud produce. I totally agree with the rosbeef above Edited February 12, 2004 by axel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Axel, what is the correct speling in French for A'la Angle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 (edited) These 'barbarians' got their genius ideas of deportation from our beloved Germans, because they were barbarians they could never have come up with ingenius plan themselves. I believe Admiral Usedom even admitted this after the war. Yes, that's right, and the father of the so-called Pan-Turanism was a Jew and many within the Young Turks Government were Jews. Today Jews in Judea are as racist as Germans 60 years ago. So? Are we gonna blame jews for the Genocide of the Armenians? If no, Why not? Edited February 12, 2004 by gamavor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Axel, what is the correct speling in French for A'la Angle? I believe you are refering to the french "à l'anglaise" as in the expression "filer à l'anglaise" which translates into english as "to run off" and actually has its symmetric equivalent (ie "to take french leave" ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted February 12, 2004 Report Share Posted February 12, 2004 Thanks. I thought à l'anglaise stands for rosebeef, but as far as I know (and use the phrase) "à l'anglaise" should be translated as 'well done'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 These 'barbarians' got their genius ideas of deportation from our beloved Germans, because they were barbarians they could never have come up with ingenius plan themselves. What the hell are you talking about???? I thought the jewish holocaust was AFTER the Armenian genocide. :huh: ??????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 What the hell are you talking about???? I thought the jewish holocaust was AFTER the Armenian genocide. :huh: ??????????? Well depends...are you refering to the infamous Jewish holocaust of the Armenians? Yes its certainly in all of the history books - and the scholars are debating it - oh yes Or maybe its the Azeri Genocide by the Armenians..or the slaughter of yellow star belly sneeches by the no star belly sneeches...but of course I'm sure Dr Suesss must have been a Jew...could the poisoning really go back that far? Yeah I'm amazed by the level of knowledge and scholarship in this thread (not)...and I do challange anyone to bring forth someone or some statement that claims that because Hitler said "who rememers the extermination of the Armenians" etc - that this is a proof that it happend. I'm not surprised that any of you miss this point of this however - intentionally, unintentionaly or otherwise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 It is not a misconstruction. People do use the "Hitler statement" to "prove" that the Armenian genocide happened. That is why that so called statement appears on so many Armenian genocide recognition sites and literature and in popularist media like the Ararat film. And the Turks have bothered to disprove not just because it is an easy fraud to uncover, but because the uncovering discredits everything else those propagating the fraud produce. Indeed, no one should use "proofs" like the Hitler statement to try to prove the Armenian Genocide. That is damaging since it is easy to discredit as you pointed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Can't you read mouse. That statement (of gamovor's) is entirely irrelevent. No one is claiming that Hitler is any kind of authority on the Genocide (I swear - exactly the same pointless "arguments" the Turks use...) But I should't count you to have any real understading of the point of this anyway (explained over previous posts)...it requires some feelings (empathy) as well as some smarts - that one cannot see the relevance - and that one cannot have empathy for the (very similar and tragic) plight of others..well it bespeaks an ugly racisim IMO ..or just plain ignorance. So whcih is it Mouse - perhaps a little of both. You don't care becuase they were Jews or just because they weren't Armenians - either way is sad - IMO. particualry because Armenians were very much the victims of racism (as were the Jews) - and there is a great many other similarities to their respective tragedies and histories (and I never said they were the same etc - so no need to go there). But is is far to simplistic (and just plain out incorrect) to say Armenains were simply the victims of barabaric nomads (how many years does one have to be sedentary to no longer be a nomad? ..or a "barbarian" necessarily), militant Islam (not true - Islam was only used as a tool to rile the masses and to emphasise differences..etc), and Pan- Turanism - (certainly a factor - but not the primary motivator - as the cards were already thrown - and again pan-Turanism was primarily a motivator and not at all deterministic). I would suggest reading Robert Melson's Genocide and Revoltion for addtional insights. I also wold consider the economic factors - certainy they played a great part (much as wioth the Jews in Erope during WW!!)...etc etc But I should't count you to have any real understading of the point of this anyway (explained over previous posts)...it requires some feelings (empathy) as well as some smarts - that one cannot see the relevance - and that one cannot have empathy for the (very similar and tragic) plight of others..well it bespeaks an ugly racisim IMO ..or just plain ignorance. So whcih is it Mouse - perhaps a little of both. You don't care becuase they were Jews or just because they weren't Armenians - either way is sad - IMO. You see, the reason I don't take you seriously any more is because few of your posts are outside of the general framework and pattern in which you post. You have a preconceived notion of everything, you do not want to engage in a discussion or Socratic dialogue, you are just hellbent on youre little subtle snubs and your appeal to your emotions. I can't engage in any discussion with you so long as this persists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 I am bowing out of this thread, because it seems to be a waste of time, effort, and breath. Think outside the box, people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 You see, the reason I don't take you seriously any more is because few of your posts are outside of the general framework and pattern in which you post. You have a preconceived notion of everything, you do not want to engage in a discussion or Socratic dialogue, you are just hellbent on youre little subtle snubs and your appeal to your emotions. I can't engage in any discussion with you so long as this persists. No problem..I have no interest in discussing anything with you. I find it funny that you (of all people) critique my posts as not being serious or being dogmatic or what have you...takes the cake as it were... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 I am bowing out of this thread, because it seems to be a waste of time, effort, and breath. Think outside the box, people! How about just think for a second....I must say i'm really surprised how dense some people are seeming to be - who I had thought were perhaps rather bright...so it goes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
den_wolf Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 How about just think for a second....I must say i'm really surprised how dense some people are seeming to be - who I had thought were perhaps rather bright...so it goes... Dear oh dear... THOTH, do you feel like you have the calling by God (or Gods, as the case may be) to ruin each and every thread that you take a look at? So far, I have only seen a few thoughtful (not necessarily agreeing with what you say though) posts by you in all the threads, especially in the politics forums. While I appreciate your get-a-free-trial diagnosis of my (or others') intelligence, I suggest that you think twice about posting such things. I am not telling you what to do, merely suggesting. You are making a big fool of yourself. No matter how passionate or dedicated you are to defending the genocide cause or arguing against people who have differing views, I think you need to "chill", take a deep breath, READ, THINK, and THEN reply. Rather than taking the easy way out and making comments here and there about people's intelligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 call em as I sees em...sorry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 What the hell are you talking about???? I thought the jewish holocaust was AFTER the Armenian genocide. :huh: ??????????? Wolf no offense but do you know anything about WWI history or what tactics Germany used? The idea of deportation existed even before WWI in Germany. The Jewish Holocaust is not the first time Germany deported and killed large numbers of civilians, though it was the largest outbreak of Teutonic agression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 "Methinks we can oll agree without gowin ferther off toopic that theres sufficient reason to doubt Hitler's utterance, and end this thread already." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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