Dan Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Anonymouse -- but don't you think AA worked in SOME way? i mean, think about it, did it not give a lot of women and blacks jobs that they wouldn't have dreamed of getting because they were, in some cases, less qualified (not meant as an offensive term, so don't jump on me for saying this) than white people? yes, it did result in employing less qualified and less-than-qualified people, but it did work to some extent when it comes to job distribution, no? what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I don't see Asians having a tough time with this. Solid post, I agree with what you said. But I hope you understand what I meant as well. I know you can/will hire who you want, so would I. I'm just saying it does exist where you will NOT get a break because of who you are, simple as that. I don't harp on, i'm just speaking on the open topic. As for Asians, there are a lot of factors that go into that idea of "model minority" that they have been saddled with by "white" leaders. You're smart cat, so I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about. And concerning that, good for them. No hate from me. Maybe I'm speaking from the college graduate, steady job having, book reading black male perspective, but i'm too old for all the blaming and whining and asking for things. I grind. I know not everyone had chances like me, but I'm not lazy, i don't play the race card, I just grind. I know race is ever present, as a BLACK(brown if you want to be PC) skinned hue-man, I'll never not be racialized on sight. I just wish people would also look pass all the idiots and not just hold grudges against Blacks, b/c of the actions of some us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Anonymouse, you might be right about the politics of division (race, ethnicity, gender, etc.), but do you think we can rid ourselves of those systems and labels? I for one don't think it's possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I hear you Dan, I didn't mean to imply you said ALL either. Just kind of letting words flow. I hear your points man, it's all in the name of knowledge, opinion sharing. peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Dan, you said and if it's black people's day, i don't see why it's called in his name -- i think he's the least worthy of all blacks to have a day in his name.. i'm sure there were black people out there who contributed as much as he did, and didn't do all those bad things. they just didn't get mentioned because they were foreshadowed by luther king. that's why I asked whose name you would suggest. I think that if anyone was worthy he was among them. And I don't think anyone else was as inspiring and authoritative among black people as him regardless of his flaws and hypocricy. I don't mind at all having Luther's day although it sucks I have to work. I wouldn't mind if it was Smith's day, or Najarian's day either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 did it not give a lot of women and blacks jobs that they wouldn't have dreamed of getting because they were, in some cases, less qualified (not meant as an offensive term, so don't jump on me for saying this) than white people? yes, it did result in employing less qualified and less-than-qualified people, but it did work to some extent when it comes to job distribution, no? what do you think? People always say this....where and when did this take place? Just wondering, i'd like some documentation that 'lesser skilled' workers were knowingly accepted over more qualified white ones? Just a straight up question.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Sasun, I think I made my points very clear why I don't think he should have a day in his name -- it's not a matter of popularity, it's more a matter of principle and ideology. It'd be interesting to read a feminist's point of view on this one. A radical feminist's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Anonymouse -- but don't you think AA worked in SOME way? i mean, think about it, did it not give a lot of women and blacks jobs that they wouldn't have dreamed of getting because they were, in some cases, less qualified (not meant as an offensive term, so don't jump on me for saying this) than white people? yes, it did result in employing less qualified and less-than-qualified people, but it did work to some extent when it comes to job distribution, no? what do you think? But at what expense? One can make the argument that it was working based on reverse discrimination? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Anonymouse, you might be right about the politics of division (race, ethnicity, gender, etc.), but do you think we can rid ourselves of those systems and labels? I for one don't think it's possible. I'm not saying that these labels don't exist. I'm saying politics thrives off of it. It's called divide and rule. Democracy is the worst system ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Sasun, I think I made my points very clear why I don't think he should have a day in his name -- it's not a matter of popularity, it's more a matter of principle and ideology. It'd be interesting to read a feminist's point of view on this one. A radical feminist's. OK Dan, I got you, you have made your points more than clear. And I just wanted to make my point. Did you get my point? Ok, never mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 i think the main problem with black people is that they take everything the wrong way -- see how you accused me of generalisation.. i never said ALL black people yelled foul play in that comment.. Just a point here..."the main problem" I have laughed many times here and in other armenian forums because i thought blacks had the biggest chips on their shoulders. But I would say that armos are close to surpassing that. I know the reason, it's the feeling of having been wronged in your history, that keeps you hard, pissed almost. But this isn't something we have a monopoly, you all as hyes should know that. And my point is, you'd think I was a jerk for saying that about armos, yet you say it about blacks. Feel me? I give love to cats with culture , period. Take it how you want. Even if armos have beef with me, i respect and give love to armos as a people with culture and history. I could hate in general, I live in Hollywood man, lots of reasons to hate armos in Hollywood. But I let the good of what you got speak to me. Thats just kind of what I want to spread you know. Does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 i think im a bit late into the topic.....but i agree no such thing as eqaulity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 sev-mard, the definition of affirmative action is by itself proof of that. when you put quotas for black people or certain minorities, there immediately arises the question of whether or not they were as qualified as the other people who would've gotten the jobs had it not been for AA. It is the same situation here in Canada now, with immigration -- bringing in unskilled workers within the skilled worker category and them getting the jobs (employment equity [translated as affirmative action] for visible minorities, etc.) that otherwise skilled workers would get.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 It should be noted that you cannot have a mixed society and want fairness. That simply doesn't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 And my point is, you'd think I was a jerk for saying that about armos, yet you say it about blacks. Actually, no... I don't think you're a jerk. I respect your views. And that's what a lot of people don't understand. What's all this about hate crime laws, that prohibit people from speaking their mind and label them immediately as racist, sexist, homophobic and therefore inciting hatred against an "identifiable group"? I think that's the biggest load of BS I've ever seen in my life. And it's the first step in creating a fascist nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Is there implied fairness in a homogenous society? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Is there implied fairness in a homogenous society? Nope. That's the point. You will always have unfairness and inequality precisely because nothing in nature is equal. Genius point sev mard I'm glad you pointed that out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 dude there is no such thing as fairness and equality...they are just hazy expectations...even in a family theres no such thing as equality....go figure... oh also, if ther was equality, then we would live i n a perfect world, which we dont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Nope. That's the point. You will always have unfairness and inequality precisely because nothing in nature is equal. Genius point sev mard I'm glad you pointed that out. Too add to this, it's just that in a mixed society, you will have it easier for politics to divide the groups in the name of fairness, as is the case, whereas in a homogenous society you wouldn't. That doesn't change the fact that no two humans are equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 sev-mard, the definition of affirmative action is by itself proof of that. when you put quotas for black people or certain minorities, there immediately arises the question of whether or not they were as qualified as the other people who would've gotten the jobs had it not been for AA. It is the same situation here in Canada now, with immigration -- bringing in unskilled workers within the skilled worker category and them getting the jobs (employment equity [translated as affirmative action] for visible minorities, etc.) that otherwise skilled workers would get.. Now skilled workers missing out, on what? Picking onions and washing cars and whatnot? Maybe I'm reaching, but here is so much public perception and the realities are usually so different. What types of jobs were quota-ed to minorites. I have never seen anything that told me which, so if you can help me, let me know. Take for example, in San Diego where I went to college before AA female construction contractors were holding 19% of govt funded contracts in the area. When AA hit, it went up to like 22%, but there was a lot of uproar, ppl were saying that AA was stealing jobs away from contractors who deserved them and whatnot. This breed a lot of public hate. When AA was taken away, and great Pete Wilson resended all things conneted with it. Guess what happened to the female contractors? Their share fell 4%! So a 15% fall from what they originally had. AA many times got the public riled up, made them believe things that weren't necessarily true and many times like this example, hurt more afterwards than they helped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 But at what expense? One can make the argument that it was working based on reverse discrimination? Exactly. That's what I'm trying to say. Anonymouse, with regards to your comment about democracy being a bad system because it thrives on the "divide and rule" concept, my question was, do you think it's possible to get rid of that "divide into race, gender, etc. and rule" system (i.e. what you called democracy or even politics). do you think we can live without politics? OK Dan, I got you, you have made your points more than clear. And I just wanted to make my point. Did you get my point? Ok, never mind hmm, I'm not quite sure I get your point, Sasun... if there must be a person after whom that day is named, it definitely shouldn't be Luther king, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 oh also, the so called democracy we live in, the US, its not a democracy, Greek politics, from what democracy was born was not even a true democratic society, read plato's apology--socrates...youll know what i mean.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sev-mard Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Too add to this, it's just that in a mixed society, you will have it easier for politics to divide the groups in the name of fairness, as is the case, whereas in a homogenous society you wouldn't. That doesn't change the fact that no two humans are equal. Yeah I hear you, equality is a myth. But you're not not equal because of some old racial misconceptions. I don't want someone to look at me and be like "oh he black so he can't comprehend this type of work". You know? If i'm beat out by a better person I'm beat out then. I'm not tripping off of implied equality as much as I am, discriminatin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 sev-mard... not sure about the situation in the States, but the majority of unskilled workers who come to Canada take the jobs of the more qualified residents in IT, computing, etc. The people who take their jobs don't know English, but only get the jobs because they are visible minorities (there are exceptions, of course). Not to mention the privileges non-white people are given at university entrance level. the quotas that are placed for those things (universities, jobs, etc.) are not reflective of the distribution in population, especially in the case of universities. And another comment -- where there is difference (skin colour, sex, race, etc.) there are power relations. There is probably only a brief period in which 2 different things can be on the same level, only for the scale to shift again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Socrates and Democracy by David W. Allan July 29, 2001 Socrates... did not conceal his contempt for some of the weaknesses of democracy, and this... greatly influenced the political thinking of his disciple Plato. Socrates openly taught that the principal fault of democracy was that it did not require proof of special knowledge in its leaders, that it surrendered the direction of the people’s destinies to men without adequate experience in government, and that on the question of the morality of justice of a policy it treated the opinions of all citizens as equal in value. Not unnaturally, these unorthodox sentiments were viewed with alarm by the democrats, still politically insecure... Socrates... sought to uncover errors in conventional views, and by the use of inductive argument — the attempt to arrive at general conclusions through striking particular illustrations taken from the life of the common people — to draw a pattern of life consistent with truth and virtue... The apparent harmony of the universe led Socrates to believe that it is ordered by a Divine Spirit and he held... that the soul is immortal. His belief that he himself was inspired by a divine voice... [brought him to his death]. He was a great, good, wise, inspiring... man. Ironically, he was condemned to death for "impiety" (ungodliness or irreverence towards the Supreme Being; contempt of the divine character and authority; [definition from the original Noah Webster dictionary]). What, in fact, caused his death was his rejection of the current democratic leadership. He was too bold in exposing their inconsistencies, and they wanted him out of the way. The accusation of impiety was a ruse to make them look good and Socrates look bad so that the democratic vote for his death would follow. Alma taught that "the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom according to that which is just and true." (Alma 29:8) The wisdom shared and example lived in Socrates’ life foreshadowed that of Christ. His death was for similar reasons. He wore no shoes, left no writings, dressed humbly, cared for the common people, had a great many disciples at the time of his death in 399 B.C., and died because he would not compromise on the principles he taught. Today, many proclaim democracy as the way for the world to be governed — not realizing that the greatness of this land of the free is that we are a republic. Democracy, taken to its limit, is mobocracy. Our inspired constitution protects us against this conspiratorial trickery, and most have lost the vision of this inspired document. Let us repent and focus on the wisdom and inspiration given to our founding fathers and the wise sages of the past. But most especially let us focus on the inspiration He will give us as we come unto Him, who inspired them and Socrates. Otherwise, we will go through the worst world war ever to regain our freedoms, and many will have to die as Socrates — standing for correct principles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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