Anonymouse Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 (edited) And anonymouse... i am not talking about morality or anything of the sort. i am talking about practical things.. but at any rate.. so if the government is guilty of criminal activity, would the decriminalisation of criminal activity for the general public be a justifiable thing to do? a sane thing to do? you might have a whole lotta knowledge from books and bring them into every single argument/debate about moral issues (i.e. bookish lol), it doesn't follow that following a certain moralist's view or theory or concept would lead us to a favourable position.... at any rate, the theory of morality and the practice/application of it are two different things, the difference between them probably like that of day and night.. Even owning guns is more 'practical' than not owning them. There is a certain ring of truth in the aphorism, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". Look at Switzerland. Two world wars and no one dared invade this country that is known for its gun ownership. Historically, only totalitarian States have been in favor of eliminating guns from the commonfolk, whether it was the Ottomans, or Nazis, or Soviets. The reason I brought up the moral argument is because it is inescapable for our everyday actions are tied into it, whether we like it or not. So if I have money, I'll purchase a gun. My kids can have water guns. Edited January 22, 2004 by Anonymouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Azat, maybe because the population of Switzerland is not as belligerent as the population of USA/Canada? Question: Can you please tell me who commits the most crimes in USA/Canada? i.e. which visible group(s)? And also, do tell me if those groups/ethnicities are present in Switzerland in massive numbers... And to answer your question, Norway probably has the lowest crime rate in the world.. Here's a link: http://www.vixpy.demon.co.uk/gun/articles/tun.htm I mean... it's not like you can get a shotgun in Norway when you're 15 years old, and go around and shoot randomly and injure a 6 year old kid who happened to be walking home with his mom (this happened here in Toronto).... Now you are raising the question of cultural homogeneity, which the United States lacks, and from this flows lack of cohesion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Historically, only totalitarian States have been in favor of eliminating guns from the commonfolk, whether it was the Ottomans, or Nazis, or Soviets. mmmhmmm.. actually, you missed one, and rightly so, but that proves you wrong... you missed good ol' USA in that list... I don't see USA outlawing guns... which is primary what the problem is. USA seems to be upside down.. "ters" as they call it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 heyyy waterguns........yippie i sure miss those... especially the ones with the colored water........ true, its safer to have a gun, although i am not fond of violence, but if its the only way you can protect yourself and the ones you love, then be it! darwinian principles~ survival of the fittest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 darwinian principles~ survival of the fittest! ergo total anarchy.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Very good ... That's what I like to hear. Your post had a very dark, somber, and depressing tone to it. All I was trying to point out is that the world seeming "a very sad and scarry place" and "everything seeming more complicated than usual" indicate to me that your perception of how things are in general may be biased. Sometimes we let the pressures of things around us cloud our judgement about how the world really is. Sometimes things are just not going well ... sometimes bad things happen ... sometimes people do bad things to us ... heck I have had a lot of those kinds of days myself. But we shouldn't let that cloud our judgement into thinking the whole world is a complete mess. A similar phenomenon happened with 9/11. People were so caught up with the "trajedy" that they lost sense of reason and many started to see the world as a much much darker place than it actually was/is. Sepan jan, what about this world makes it orderly, makes it good, makes it non-chaotic..... And you are right such things like 9/11 may cloud peoples judgment,, but thats not to say the world is good is it? i mean sure there are many many good things,, but if we sit here and list them we will find more bad thatn good,, thus making the world a mess.. It is complete chaos, nothing is in order.. it cant be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 true, its safer to have a gun, although i am not fond of violence, but if its the only way you can protect yourself and the ones you love, then be it! This is patetnly untrue. (sorry Angel)...but statistically and otherwise there are more deaths and injuries by accidents (and deliberate use against people that one knows) ...then such things being of any real use in self defense. So it is not (necessarily) safer to have a gun. Oh and speaking of totalitarian solutions for things...just how does one force cultural homogenity? And is this necessarily a good thing anyway? I for one think this country is a much better place with Thai amd Afghan restaraunts, oriental, Middle Eastern and hispanic groceries, jazz, etc etc...and certainly wouldnt want to go back to life as it was in the 50s or such (if even that was homogeniety of culture...which it wasn't quite....just in the popular media renditions etc...but yeah...the food and music and much else was sure boring) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 I for one think this country is a much better place with Thai amd Afghan restaraunts, oriental, Middle Eastern and hispanic groceries, jazz, etc etc...and certainly wouldnt want to go back to life as it was in the 50s or such (if even that was homogeniety of culture...which it wasn't quite....just in the popular media renditions etc...but yeah...the food and music and much else was sure boring) I beg to differ on that one!!!!! i am all for equality and all that, but i am against people who refuse to give up publicly expressing their customs in a society that has advanced so much and even embraced them as part of its future.. i think it's pretty rude to go to a country and wear your on the head or somewhere that obviously does not appeal to many people. not to mention how rude it is to live in a country and not speak its language (you can speak your own language all you want, but sheesh, learn to speak the country's language!!!) i think the root of the problem is immigration. particularly third world immigration. i'm not saying that it's the nature of those immigrants to be violent or anything, but when they bring those people in who are not qualified to hold jobs, etc., what else are they gonna do but be homeless or do illegal things to earn a living, or resort to violence as a result of depression? i mean, come now, let's all be realistic... not being racist or anything here... if i point out that 90% of sexual assaults are committed by black males, would i be considered racist? it's sad what all this anti-racist political correctness thing is coming down to.. and i think that's one of the problems -- how do you expect to solve a problem when you are censored from speaking the truth?!? I'm not generalising anything. I think other cultures have a lot to offer, etc., but like..... adapting is very important.... you can demand so much from a country that has adopted you.... it's like "give them a patch of land, and they will demand that you give them the whole country." And then they deport a Russian woman for no reason at all.. how about all the Jamaican illegals who are into all that drug/gun business???!?! or the pakis?!?! or gang members who don't hold any documents that would allow them to stay in the country?!?! SICK!!! http://64.21.83.54/forum/style_images/1/icon8.gif totalitarianism you tell me?!??! NO. I say it's stupidity on the part of the government and its various departmental minions!! Time for LAW to be applied!! SHEESH!!! the state of our nation(s)... illegals are illegals. nothing's gonna change that. and non-qualified/non-skilled legals are not supposed to be here. For our sake as well as theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 mmmhmmm.. actually, you missed one, and rightly so, but that proves you wrong... you missed good ol' USA in that list... I don't see USA outlawing guns... which is primary what the problem is. USA seems to be upside down.. "ters" as they call it... I they haven't "outlawed" it per se, but they have made it more difficult to acquire by Federal regulation. Just wait for another "terrorist attack" for there to be full marshall law and outlaw of possessing weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 (edited) It was precisely because the Korean shop owners during the L.A. riots that possessed guns were able to ward off the rioters. It was because my father was not armed with a gun, why he was shot by rioters. Case after case, if one side is in possession of a gun, the other is not, most likely the side in possession will use force because there is no possible check of deterrence. This is why when the U.S. was in sole possession of the A-Bomb it used it freely on an already surrendering Japan, and this is why no one used it, when two sides possessed it. Edited January 22, 2004 by Anonymouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 omg im so sorry anonymouse, hope your dad was okay.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 This is why when the U.S. was in sole possession of the A-Bomb it used it freely on an already surrendering Japan, and this is why no one used it, when two sides possessed it. Unlike the A-bomb though, the gun does have legitimate uses in the hands of the right person. I am pro-gun but I am certainly not for people freely posessing AK-47's, M16's, and Rocket Propelled Granade launchers that are purely designed to kill other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 You must all excuse Dan's ethnocentric bordering on zenophobic posts (sorry Dan) but you see, he lives in Scarborough, or North York, or something silly like that, and he just needs to express himself - feel free to ignore him... That being said - I'll be the first to admit that the immigration laws are all messed up here. Keep out educated doctors and scientist who've been wallowing in the weighty immigration 'system', while giving carte blanche to anyone and their mother who can illegally get into the country...something definitely need fixing Dan, but be careful - in the eyes of most of the population WE ARE IMMIGRANTS TOO even if you're born here Dan! So by you're logic, there's a segment of the population that think you're contributing to the problem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 (edited) You must all excuse Dan's ethnocentric bordering on zenophobic posts (sorry Dan) but you see, he lives in Scarborough, or North York, or something silly like that, and he just needs to express himself - feel free to ignore him... That being said - I'll be the first to admit that the immigration laws are all messed up here. Keep out educated doctors and scientist who've been wallowing in the weighty immigration 'system', while giving carte blanche to anyone and their mother who can illegally get into the country...something definitely need fixing Dan, but be careful - in the eyes of most of the population WE ARE IMMIGRANTS TOO even if you're born here Dan! So by you're logic, there's a segment of the population that think you're contributing to the problem... mmmhmmm vava... what does the fact that i live in north york have anything to do with my views about the immigration laws? and for your information (i don't know about the situation where you live), but here in Toronto, if i see a white/british/canadian person, it makes my day (not in the sense that it makes me happy or anything -- just that i don't see any white people here in toronto at all... only chinese, indians, mexicans, filippinos, blacks, and jews [yes, i can tell they're jews even if they don't have that thingie on their head...] in the eyes of most of the population? who IS that "most population"? the immigrants, no? (refer to above paragraph) mmhmm, actually no... i would not be considered an immigrant, theoretically speaking. or a contributor to the problem for that matter.. why? because i am British, and may I remind you who "built" this country? i don't remember arabs dying for Canada or for the British empire for that matter... heh... yeah, my dad died for the Lebanese, but do they consider him one of their own because he did? i don't think so.. and i am not anti-immigration or anti-all-immigrants. just those who are not qualified to be here but are given permanent residence for some odd reason.... i don't think i am not qualified for immigration.. English is my mother tongue, i've lived here for quite a while now, and i have an education, unlike the illiterate chinese who are brought here by the thousands (not saying there aren't any educated chinese out there)........ and sheesh, i heard the situation in England with the pakis is terrible.... they go there and beat up the Brits.. what the hell....... ? that's not my idea of qualified immigrants.. but i'm not too sure if it is your idea.... sounds like it though... anyhow, i'll try not to make assumptions about people's views... this is not just a random, irrelevant rant. it's VERY much related to the issue of kids and violence in our cities. and speaking about it in negative terms as i'm doing now does not mean i am racist, and if that's what it means to you folks (or others out there), then so be it... in an age where political correctness censors truth ahhh... what do we expect... it's done with now.. at this rate, the world is going to be controlled by illiterate muslims (again, there are literate muslims, i know) who want the world to be under their control and act like them (not taking shower, living in tents, etc............), or porn-spreading obsessed zionists (talk about corrupting an entire generation... did you know that when israelis took over palestinian TV stations, they aired porn during the regular cartoon times when children were watching?)... so i think i will change my view on "is it fair to bring kids into this world?" and say no... i don't think it's fair.. unless you're planning for a massive anti-anti-racialist movement, i wouldn't recommend that you procreate... but if they do come as a surprise, i guess it's their bad luck and they have to live through this UTTER stupidity like we are doing now... 1965 chain immigration.. hail it... ahhh and then they ask me why i think Johnson was the worst president in the history of the jewnited states... i meant united states.. let the censorship begin.. Edited January 22, 2004 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 (edited) It was precisely because the Korean shop owners during the L.A. riots that possessed guns were able to ward off the rioters. It was because my father was not armed with a gun, why he was shot by rioters. Case after case, if one side is in possession of a gun, the other is not, most likely the side in possession will use force because there is no possible check of deterrence. This is why when the U.S. was in sole possession of the A-Bomb it used it freely on an already surrendering Japan, and this is why no one used it, when two sides possessed it. Anonymouse, i'm sorry to hear that your dad was shot.. But think about it, i am talking about outlawing ALL guns, including the ones the rioters had. if they didn't have guns, neither those shopowners would've needed any to ward them off, nor would your dad have been shot... your father was shot because the rioters owned the guns, not because he didn't have a gun.. i guess you're viewing the cup half empy instead of half-full... but think about it, let's all have an arms race and get every single person in the neighbourhood armed, and then create anarchy, just like uhhh "gatil meh meghreh" .. sheesh, have we not learned from that example?!?! Edited January 22, 2004 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 I'd like to put a moderator's hat on for a moment. People please stay on topic, we are discussing little brats who poop and whine and give you headaches and make you spend money on them, all for the narcissistic idea that there is going to be your chromosome walking the earth after you meet your death. Ok, I shall take off the hat before I get booted for wrongfully assuming authority without permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 anileve, yes, exactly those little whiners and brats who go around shooting at people as soon as they're old enough to be able to spell g-u-n... i think in every discussion, one needs to discuss the underlying problems instead of the consequences..... so i don't think it's off-topic at all. in fact, it's very relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 So you are saying that the gun "problem" can be solved if we outlawed kids? Hey ... this sounds good to me. Where do I sign? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtraHye Posted January 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 I don't think it's necessary for people to own guns. Especially if you have kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 So you are saying that the gun "problem" can be solved if we outlawed kids? Hey ... this sounds good to me. Where do I sign? ummm i never said that.. whatever made you think that i suggested that? it's the entire education/media/immigration system that's wrong.. THAT's what needs to be changed, not the nature of procreation or anything of the sort. I'm all for pro-creation.. heh.. if you want kids, go for it!! although I prefer adoption... i mean we're already overpopulated, so why not take one that's already born... (right, you're gonna say, yeah, i want MY OWN kid, it's different, and besides, others can do it, i'm not gonna do that.. i want to have my OWN kids.. but if everyone thought like that, we're back to square 1.. or 0, or maybe -1).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I am pro-gun but I am certainly not for people freely posessing AK-47's, M16's, and Rocket Propelled Granade launchers that are purely designed to kill other people. I am not really following, so you are saying that since .45 are designed with a versatility of killing people and animals it makes them better? Can I ask you which guns are not purely designed to kill people? I don't understand this whole idea about protecting oneself. All my life and my parents I don't believe we were ever in a need of a gun. If one is careful about his choices there shouldn't be a need to resort to pulling the trigger. Unless you live in Texas and it is very "hip" to go hunting for already extinct wild animals to prove your manhood by decorating your walls with "unchashak" animal heads, although I don't even know how that validates the argument. Also what's up with this stupid saying "Guns don't kill people, it's people that kill people" well duh! It's only logical to understand that a person holding a gun is going to be the one to pull the trigger, just as the nukes don't kill people, unless they launched by them, so is that to say that everyone should own one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Eve ... I think this will clear up everything about relative strengths of guns ... http://www.bangedup.com/archives/lionstupidfoolhunter.wmv Granted there are not that many lions in the US but there certainly are some big arse dogs and definitely a lot of bears especially in the Sierras in the west side. Obviously there is a legitimate reason to own guns for hunting and of course recreational target shooting, etc. But I don't hunt ... I got mine for protection and as I have said before, I feel much better with it than without it. I don't carry it anywhere in civilized places. I also don't keep it loaded in the house ... actually it's in a locked box. Now you are questioning their use as far as personal protection is concerned ... do you really want to start that argument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 it's one thing to have a hunting gun, it's another thing to have a handgun / pistol... Sip, are you telling me you own a gun? do you have a license for carrying a concealed weapon? :o dude..... never mind... are you telling me that in case someone comes to your house with the intention to rob you, you will have the time to go to the room where the box is located, unlock the box, load the gun, and still expect to be alive? i have my doubts about that one.. heh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Dan, I have a gun. I don't have a carry license ... they don't give those out in WI. As I said before, even if they did, I probably wouldn't get it as I certainly don't need it. I take my gun when I am out in the middle of nowhere by myself. I could claim it's for protection against animals and what not but I have to admit mostly it's for protection against some weird ass people you sometimes run into. Trust me, these people are freaking scary ... add some (actually a lot) of alcohol into their system, sometimes combined with drugs .. and let's just say it ain't pretty. About a robber coming into my house ... I am not worried about that at all. If he has a gun, I'd just let him take whatever as I don't have anything of value at home other than a couple of electronics here and there ... and I certainly wouldn't mind buying new If he doesn't have a gun, then may god have mercy on his soul as he is going to be faced to face with a 6' 250lb guy who's going to have a whole foot up his rear end. I don't think I'll bother going after the gun as it'll be much more fun bashing the guy's face in. Now if there's more than one, that's a different story but then again, that is not a situation I will have to face most likely as my house is empty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 (edited) lol Sip... heh.. I thought you were in L.A..? My bad... Hmmm.. well, if it's not a densely populated area, it's fine.. but in the city, like downtown Toronto, I don't see a need for it.. ) and would probably not have the money to buy another one... what do you think? am I being logical here? Edited January 23, 2004 by Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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