THOTH Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 If this is so, then why were these doors and words forced on me? As for you Thoth, I am surprised you write this: when I am the sole female in the opposition "sticking up for myself", simply because I refuse to absorbed by any form of -ism, be it liberalism, nazism and even individualism. No nairi - you are insignificant...because you are without a clue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 simply because I refuse to absorbed by any form of -ism, be it liberalism, nazism and even individualism. Interesting does impressionism, expressionism, cubism, futurism, surrealism and constructivism count amidst those “evil” isms of yours? Shall we abandon art on those merits as well since they meet those general merits of the English endings associated with systems? Or is –ism just prevalent of the English language merely representing an “organized style”? Let’s stop the baloney people our lives revolve around –isms if we speak English, although once you start speaking any other language this whole –ism business loses any validity. Let’s not make things more complex then they really are. Anonymouse... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 If this is so, then why were these doors and words forced on me? How so nairi? You are a poster woman for many of the males in this forum, I don't see how you feel this way. As for sticking up for yourself, that you did and you also stuck up for the chauvinistic belief. All I said to you, was that the movement should be valued for a simple fact that you can choose either lifestyle without being forced into it and have your daughters (say you will or do have them) take advantage of that as well. Empowerment and repossessions of ones identity that has been discouraged for so long, that is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 yes Ani..and such ignorance certainly pisses me of..and what is at stake for me eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 yes Ani..and such ignorance certainly pisses me of..and what is at stake for me eh? THOTH you are fun aperik! Very flirtatious but fun as heck! But don't be pissed off, let's have some wine with cheese instead, but perhaps not, you are married after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 (edited) THOTH you are fun aperik! Very flirtatious but fun as heck! But don't be pissed off, let's have some wine with cheese instead, but perhaps not, you are married after all. Wel Ani..I am having my wine (very nice Southern Rhone from the most glorious '98 vintage)..certainly...also had some framboise [the ral dal brought back myself from France] and lemon mineral water (mixed together) with desert (Irish Creme Praline from Spain [called Lacasa] - awesome stuff and awesome combo)..I'd love to "cook" for you sometime girl..married or not...juat made a very nice gormet meal for my (hard working) wife tonight..so she's in a good mood..sure she won't mind...lol Edited January 21, 2004 by THOTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Wel Ani..I am having my wine (very nice Southern Rhone from the most glorious '98 vintage)..certainly...also had some framboise [the ral dal brought back myself from France] and lemon mineral water (mixed together) with desert (Irish Creme Praline from Spain [called Lacasa] - awesome stuff and awesome combo)..I'd love to "cook" for you sometime girl..married or not...juat made a very nice gormet meal for my (hard working) wife tonight..so she's in a good mood..sure she won't mind...lol WOW THOTH ummm...ummmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 always...my dear always...its do damn good to be bad...thats something that often takes a lifetime to understand...adn funny that...because what comes more natural...when we are young (I'm talking toddler like, as well as pre and post)...and there are those who spout all sorts of shit talki gof the natural order of things...i'm sur eyou can concieve of just how far off the mark they indeed are.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Interesting does impressionism, expressionism, cubism, futurism, surrealism and constructivism count amidst those “evil” isms of yours? Yes. Or is –ism just prevalent of the English language merely representing an “organized style”? Yes. Let’s stop the baloney people our lives revolve around –isms if we speak English, although once you start speaking any other language this whole –ism business loses any validity. But the ideology doesn't get lost. Let’s not make things more complex then they really are. I'm not. As for sticking up for yourself, that you did and you also stuck up for the chauvinistic belief. I stick up for my natural instincts. If they happen to coincide with chauvinistic belief then so be it. You are a poster woman for many of the males in this forum ??? All I said to you, was that the movement should be valued for a simple fact that you can choose either lifestyle without being forced into it and have your daughters (say you will or do have them) take advantage of that as well. Empowerment and repossessions of ones identity that has been discouraged for so long, that is all. Once again, you are trying to make me value a movement with which I have only very little in common. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Yes typical trash that apeals to the ignorant masses... http://www.candidcritic.com/images/dennismiller.jpg That's great coming from an adroit gregutlation that managed to disobey the forefollowings of a modern day Mr. Peanut. While you're adjusting the cramshanks on your Burger King crown, I'll be moseying over to the tremultious booth of tap dancing since you bore the bejesus out of me and if my yawn got any bigger they'd have to assign it a hurricane name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Interesting does impressionism, expressionism, cubism, futurism, surrealism and constructivism count amidst those “evil” isms of yours? Shall we abandon art on those merits as well since they meet those general merits of the English endings associated with systems? Or is –ism just prevalent of the English language merely representing an “organized style”? Let’s stop the baloney people our lives revolve around –isms if we speak English, although once you start speaking any other language this whole –ism business loses any validity. Let’s not make things more complex then they really are. Anonymouse... Remember, I'm Darth Vader since I can freeze people in carbonite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 (edited) That's great coming from an adroit gregutlation that managed to disobey the forefollowings of a modern day Mr. Peanut. While you're adjusting the cramshanks on your Burger King crown, I'll be moseying over to the tremultious booth of tap dancing since you bore the bejesus out of me and if my yawn got any bigger they'd have to assign it a hurricane name. Fine, meaningless trash that apeals only to yourself..what do I care...loser... Edited January 21, 2004 by THOTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Again, please cut the insults. And I'm NOT referring to only one person, but 'you' in the collective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Again, please cut the insults. And I'm NOT referring to only one person, but 'you' in the collective. Aye Aye Captain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Aye Aye Captain. Now, that's more like it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 I saw THIS post by hovsep in the Humour forum... I thought it was kind of relevant here joking, of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 I refuse to absorbed by any form of -ism, be it liberalism, nazism and even individualism what about relativism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 what about relativism? No. Only axelism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 I'm for starting a new movement called Maleism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 (edited) No. Only axelism I am quite flattered to be the exception that confirms the rule. Nous sommes, de toute évidence, deux êtres d'exception. I have trouble, though, picturing how I might absorb you Edited January 21, 2004 by axel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Again, please cut the insults. And I'm NOT referring to only one person, but 'you' in the collective. Surely you don't mean me Vava jan?! Thanks for the cartoon contribution, I must have been a man in my past life then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 I stick up for my natural instincts. If they happen to coincide with chauvinistic belief then so be it. Once again, you are trying to make me value a movement with which I have only very little in common. Why? What natural instincts would those be? The ones that are assigned to a gender by the society? Nairi it's interesting on one hand you claim that we have more in common than it appears, however you pretty much disagree with everything. I am lost, and I am also simply trying to understand why you can't identify with the movement, is there nothing that you can relate to? As for -isms I've already mentioned that people make things more complex than they really are without by distorting the real meaning. -ism --- is a noun suffix. That is, when added to words or word toots, -ism form nouns. It comes from the Greek noun suffix -ismos and means "the act, state, theory or doctrine". We have many examples of words in the English language that end with -ism and having nothing to do with political systems. Such as: mysticism prism criticism optimism pessimism cynicism skepticism anachronism aneurism neologism nepotism antagonism journalism tourism rheumatism autism separatism plagiarism rationalism regionalism romanticism And this is only a selection of hundreds of words ending with -ism. So to say that one doesn't abide by any -isms, means that one has to discredit half of the vocabulary. Uhem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Just thought that this would make a good reading. If it somehow interrupts the discussion, the moderators have a permission to remove it. Sorry for the length ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Woman and Society (Die Frauenfrage) A lecture by Rudolf Steiner Hamburg, November 17, 1906 .....In every human being — this is a fact — the etheric body consists of two parts; the etheric body of a man, as he lives among us, shows itself to have feminine features, and the etheric body of a woman to have masculine features. Many facts in life become clearer when we recognise that in a man there is something of the feminine nature, and in a woman, a more masculine nature. From this it can be explained why certain character features can arise in Man. In truth we never have before us in the physical, material human body anything other than a physical expression of the totality of the individuality. The human soul forms for itself a body with two poles, just as a magnet does. It forms for itself a masculine and a feminine part, each of which can be either a physical body, or reacts at another time as the etheric body. Hence, with regard to those emotions which are associated with the etheric body — devotion, courage, love — a woman can clearly evince masculine characteristics, and a man womanly characteristics. In contrast, with regard to all those characteristics which depend more on the physical body, the consequences of gender will express themselves in outer life. Hence it seems clear that in every human being, if we wish to consider him as a totality, we have a phenomenon before us with two parts — one revealed and material, and one hidden and spiritual. And only that man is a complete human being who is capable of combining an external masculinity with a beautiful feminine character within. And it is precisely this that the greatest spirit, namely, those of a mystical nature, have always felt in the spiritual life of the past. This is an important point. Men have played a greater part because materialism impels itself towards an external culture. This external culture is a man's culture because it was meant to be a material culture. But we must also be aware that in the development of world history one cultural epoch gives way to another, and that this one-sided masculine culture must find its completion through that which lives in every human being. One senses this precisely in the age of this masculine culture. That is why, when the mystics spoke from the innermost depths of their souls, they defined this soul as something feminine. And it is from this that you find everywhere the comparison of the soul, receptive as it is to the world, with Woman; and on this is based Goethe's saying in the ‘Chorus mysticus': Everything transient Is but illusion The inadequate — Here it becomes event; The indescribable — Here it is done; The Eternal-feminine Bears us aloft. It is nonsense to analyse this saying in a trivial way. One can analyse it in a right way, and in the true Goethean sense, when one says: He who knew something of noble spiritual culture also pointed to the feminine character of the soul; and precisely from this masculine culture did the saying: ‘The Eternal feminine bears us aloft’ struggle free. Thus the greater world, the Macrocosm was pictured as a man, and the soul, which was fructified by the wisdom of the Cosmos, as the feminine. And what then is this peculiar way of thinking which has developed in men over the centuries, this logic? If we wish to look into the depths of its nature, then we must see something feminine — imagination — which must be fructified by the masculine. Thus, when we consider that which grows over and beyond the differences of gender, we see the higher nature of the human being — that which the ‘I’ creates out of the lower bodies. Man and woman must look on their physical body as an instrument which enables them, in one direction or another, to be active as a totality in the physical world. The more human beings are aware of the spiritual within them, the more does the body become an instrument, and the more do they learn to understand people by looking into the depths of the soul. This, indeed, will not give you a solution to the Woman's question, but it will give you a perspective. You cannot solve the Woman's question with trends and ideals! In reality you can only solve it by creating that concept, that disposition of soul which enables men and women to understand each other out of the totality of human nature. As long as people are preoccupied with matter, a truly fruitful discussion on the Woman's question will not be possible. For this reason it should not surprise us that, in an age that has given birth to a masculine culture, the spiritual culture which has begun in the Theosophical movement had to be born from a woman. Thus this Theosophical or spiritual-scientific movement will prove itself to be eminently practical. It will lead humanity to overcome gender in itself and to rise to the level where Spirit-Man or Atman stands which is beyond gender, beyond the personal — to rise to the purely human. Theosophy does not speak of the genesis and development of the human being in general, so that it is gradually recognised. Thus there will gradually awake in woman a consciousness similar to that which, during this masculine culture, has awoken in men. Just as Goethe speaking from the depths of soul, once said, ‘The Eternal-feminine bears us aloft’, so others too who, as women feel in themselves the other side of the human being, and who, in a truly practical sense understand it spiritual-scientifically, will speak of the Eternal-masculine in the feminine nature. Then true understanding and a true solution of soul will be possible for the Women's question. For external nature is the physiognomy of the soul life. We have nothing in our external culture other than what human beings have created, what human beings have translated from impulses into machines, into industry, into the legal system. In their development, external institutions reflect the development of the soul. An age, however, which clung to the outer physiognomy, was able to erect barriers between men and women. An age that is no longer entrenched in what is material, what is external, but which will receive knowledge of the inner nature of the human being which transcends sex, and will, without wishing to crawl into bleakness or asceticism or to deny sexuality, enable and beautify the sexual and live in that element which is beyond it. And people will then have an understanding for what will bring the true solution to the woman's question, because it will present, at the same time, the true solution to the eternal question of humanity. One will then no longer say: ‘The Eternal-feminine bears us aloft’, or ‘The Eternal-masculine bears us aloft’, but, with deep understanding, with deep spiritual understanding one will say: ‘The Eternal-human bears us aloft’. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Vava's Law in full effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Anileve, like I said from the beginning, I don't have strong arguments against feminism except for the -ism and my personal experience with it. But I also said that I don’t believe women should be slaves or that we should turn back time. My personal experience is that it was forced on me. I couldn't escape going to school, having career-oriented goals, hearing the slogan "Een slimme meid is op haar toekomst voorbereid" (A smart girl is prepared for her future) and my mom's "Never depend on a man." The other extreme where I am constantly urged by certain members in the family and other (stranger) Armenians that it is high time I got married and had babies is just as annoying. I simply feel that by taking the side of women, feminism, like many/most/all (??) other -isms, creates an us vs. them situation. I don't feel that I am victim of society or that my rights are being abused in any way. My main question is: why does the movement still exist? We got what we wanted. Or didn't we? ‘The Eternal-human bears us aloft’. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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