Hayastan, Haiasa, Haik, Armeniya

[Armenian Highlander]

Hriya mountain man, you have obviously confused me with someone else. I'm NOT Armenian and I don't have single drop of Armenian blood. I'm an American of German descent. You can have your party with your filthy Kurds and "Armenoids" and worship at the feet of your beloved Iranian masters with your degenerate slave mentality and inferiority complexes, don't expect everyone to go along with it.

 

Oh trust me Adolph.. errr... Teutonic Night, I am not confused. Your strange rhetoric is too unique and too predictable. You have a serious case of schizophrenia, not to mention that you are full of "Tsul Kaka." Nevertheless, I forgive you for the vile insults and death threats you have made against me in the past, I know that people with your condition probably cannot control themselves.

 

Listen, like I said: I agree with most of your ideology regarding race and history, but when it comes to "Armenoids" and "Armenian origination within Asia Minor" - you seriously need to see a psychotherapist. You have problems, man.

 

As for happy-go-lucky me: I would be just as happy with my identity even if Armenians did originate within Europe. However, based on MY personal observation of archeological, anthropological, folkloric and linguistic revelations, as of this date - I am just not convinced that our beloved 'Armens' originated within Europe. However, I AM open to be convinced otherwise. Nevertheless, I do believe that a certain proto-Armenian tribe, of the many proto-Armenian tribes that existed before the race was fully formed, did emerge out of Thrace. These Thracian Phrygians, who were know as the Mushki by Assyrians, became ONE of the MANY Indo-European and Caucasian tribes that eventually formed the Armenian race as we know it.

 

The word "Armen," or many of its variations, may have been formed or utilized by the aforementioned Phrygians within Thrace, however, the term itself is derived from the primordial Armenian root word 'Ar' which is native to the Armenian Highlands as attested by the many pre-classical place names found throughout Asia Minor and northern Mesopotamia.

 

I know you want us Armenians to feel European, I do too. Thus, realize that the time we are speaking of the entire region of Asia Minor was made up of white Indo-Europeans and Caucasians, even you best friends the Iranians and Kurds back then were lovely white folk. See my friend, you have nothing to worry about, its safe to think that your ancestors may have originated with Asia Minor.

 

Yes remnants of the Hittite population did merge into proto-Armenian tribes after their empire disintegrated (I never said exclusively). And, no, I was not talking of the Hittite depictions of their "Armenoid" gods, I was referring to the depiction of themselves, such as the common soldiers.

 

And yes, Armenian is related to Phrygian just as it is related to Latin, Germanic and Iranian. Armenian, nevertheless, is not 'derived' from Phrygians. Anyone who thinks so is exercising irrationality because I believe only two sentences has survived from the Phrygian language. Thus, basing an entire "theory" on two sentences and a couple of classical statements by unreliable authors, all the while, ignoring the vast amounts of evidences that insinuates otherwise - is a bit senseless.

 

Your utter irrationality comes out when you state "Any Iranian loanwords in Armenian are a result of centuries of their barbaric and brutal occupation of Armenia that ELIMINATED half if not most of true Armenian culture, history and language replacing it with Iranian." Anyone within this forum with a little exposure to Armenian history and/or rational will tell you that Armeno-Iranian relations prior to Armenia's adoption of Christianity was far from being barbaric and brutal. At the time and even later into the Christian period, it was Greco-Romans who were barbaric and brutal towards the Armenians. Thus, get your historical facts straight if you want to be taken seriously.

 

You pathetic insults regarding "that lunatic Kavoukjian's deranged fantasies" would also apply to most of Armenia's other academicians not to mention various influential non-Armenian academicians throughout the world as well.

 

In your strange little world the Armenian language was written "using the Greek alphabet and before that using the Thraco-Phrygian writing." This fantasy of yours does not even warrant a response.

 

Your self-hate and absurdity comes out when you call Hurro-Urartians, who have given so much of their genetic and cultural heritage to us as "deformed "Armenoids." Your self-hate and absurdity comes out when you insult Armenians who happens to have hooked noses and call them deformed non-whites "Armenoids" and call everyone who dares not agree with your absudity a Jew and a Kurd/Iranian lover.

 

What is you intent? Who and what are you serving with such stupid and anti-Armenian statements, the little devils in your head? Some of your rhetoric is so absurd, so outlandish, that your idea of a true Armenian does not exist and has never existed. You have serious problems my friend.

[Vigil]

My take on this subject has always leaned towards the side that was more historically accurate and what I mean by this is that "western" historian’s claim that Armenians migrated into the Armenian highlands at about 600 BC, but yet the name Armenian was implemented only 50 years after the initial migration. Now, it just seems impossible for a group of people to form as a nation in just 50 years.

 

I also find it strange how they are finding more evidence that places the language diffusion in the Armenian Highlands, now, if the Indo-European tribes initially were Kurgan Horseman from what is now known as Ukraine how the hell did the Indo-European language diffuse from the Armenian highlands? See, this is the type of inaccuracies that just makes me question the Balkan theory.

 

Also, keep in mind that this is not the only time in history where foreigners have "discovered" a indigenous group of people. The civilizations of America existed thousands of years before Columbus actually discovered the continent. Now, are we to assume that they did exist as a nation prior to this discovery? No, of course not, so, why is the same the double standard being used towards Armenian history? Well, part of the reason is that Armenians are a relatively small group of people and because of this much of our history has been ignored. However, like Armenian Highlander has stated numerous times, Western academia is starting to explore our history and they are finding more and more evidence that places the birth of the Indo-European tribes in and around the Armenian Highlands.

 

Furthermore, you can not assume that the birth of a nation is the point in time in which they were discovered by foreigners. For instance, the Chinese have existed as a people for thousands of years, but the official Chinese state was created when the Qin Dynasty unified the Chinese kingdoms. Now, could we assume then that at around 600 BC the Armenian people were unified under the name "Armenian", but the actual date of their birth is much older? Yes, we can assume this because it is equivalent of Greeks and Italians claiming ancestry of the many ancient civilizations of that region.

 

In my opinion I feel that they are trying to marginalize Armenian history because they do not want to admit that the contemporary Europeans are indeed descendents of ancient Armenians. They (Not sure who they is) are trying to use a technicality to distort our history by placing the birth of the Armenian people right when we "unified" under the Armenian banner. If we were to extend this same standard to Chinese history then we must assume that the Chinese never existed prior to the Qin Dynasty, right? Wrong, this is why I feel that there is a double standard when it comes to Armenian history. What is strange is that the Qin Dynasty came into power at around 223 BC, which is almost 400 years after the unification of the Armenians, but yet Chinese history is traced back thousands of years before this point in time.

 

Now, do I think that some Armenians migrated from the Balkans? Yes, but did we as a people exist before this? Yes, we did exist before this, which is why you can not just give the Armenian people justice by using a one liner (I.E. Armenians "most likely" came from the west at around 600 BC) to sum up thousands of years of history.

 

Lastly, I would like to make it a point to remind you people that the Armenian language has its own branch among the Indo-European language tree for a reason. If indeed the birth of the Armenian people was around 600 BC why is our language the oldest Indo-European language? Why is the origin of our language shrouded in "mystery", while at the same time it is "obviously" Indo-European? Really think about it for a second, if the origin of Armenian is shrouded in "mystery" then how the hell can they assume it is a Indo-European language, unless, of course it is the oldest Indo-European language. Now, since it is the oldest Indo-European language then we must also assume that the Armenian civilization must have been born prior to most of the migrations by the Indo-European tribes into Europe. For instance, the Germanic tribes are no older then the fall of the Roman Empire, but yet the Kurgan Horseman theory places their migration almost 2000 years before those of the Greeks, Armenians, Hindus, and Persians (Iranians). Now, I am not a "rocket scientist", but there is clearly some inaccuracies when it comes to history of the Armenians, Greeks, Hindus, and Persians. I am including the Greeks, Hindus, and Persians because if any Indo-European migration took place it has to be connected to these three groups of people as well. If any migration took place by the Indo-European, logically, they must have settled in these regions before those IE tribes that migrated into Northern and Western Europe, thus, placing some holes in the Kurgen Horseman theory.

 

By the way, my entire argument is based on logic. In short, if the Armenians migrated later then the Germanic tribes then logically the first mention of the Germanic should predate those of the Armenians, Greeks, Persians, and Hindus, but it does not.

Edited September 6, 2004 by Vigil

[DominO123]

Armenian Highlander, STOP slandering members.

[Teutonic Knight]

Mountaineer, you are seriously insane. Seek mental help and watch out for the black helicopters and the lizard people, make sure you have your tin foil hat.

[DominO123]

You know what I find amusing?

 

It is when people cry because threads are closed and posts deleted after being warned to stop insulting eachothers.

Edited September 6, 2004 by Fadix

[Vigil]

You know what I find amusing?

 

It is when people cry because threads are closed and posts deleted after being warned to stop insulting eachothers.

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Domino, AH was not responsible for what happened to that thread. The minute AH came on these boards all you hippies began getting on his case for the shear fact that he tried to share his theory of Armenian history. First of all, if you look at that thread it was Bellthecat that was being sassy towards AH not the other way around. Anyways, my point is that all of you have been harassing him ever since he made that thread (Not you TK). I got involved because of the fact that you all tried to make him look like fraud for no other reason then to boast your own egos.

 

He has provided some interesting reads and I truly hope you people do not drive him away. It is strange, this guy is reading and researching Armenian history in order to share his findings with Armenians, but yet when he does the first thing his fellow Armenians do is criticize him. I do not want to get involved in this argument any further because it will most likely blow over, so, just relax and have a calm debate

Edited September 6, 2004 by Vigil

[gamavor]

Gentlemen, if I may suggest something? Go to this page:

 

http://www.narek.com/ArmenianMusicAwards/2004/

 

and have a look at the winner (at the very top) Aramo. He is Armenian (Armenoid or not). Scroll down and see Michael Pogosian, he is a winner too and is Armenian (but he looks like any Central European). Now, scroll down a little bit more and you will see another winner - Ashot Azarian (again another Armenian who looks like me )

 

Now, can you guess what all of them have in common?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I CAN"T STAND THEIR MUSIC!!!!

[DominO123]

Domino, AH was not responsible to what happened to that thread. The minute AH came on these boards all you hippies began getting on his case for the shear fact that he tried to share his theory of Armenian history. First of all, if you look at that thread it was Bellthecat that was being sassy towards AH not the other way around. Anyways, my point is that all of you have been harassing him ever since he made that thread (Not you TK). I got involved because of the fact that you all tried to make him look like fraud for no other reason then to boast your own egos.

 

He has provided some interesting reads and I truly hope you people do not drive him away. It is strange, this guy is reading and researching Armenian history in order to share his findings with Armenians, but yet when he does the first thing his fellow Armenians do is criticize him. I do not want to get involved in this argument any further because it will most likely blow over, so, just relax and have a clam debate

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Look Vigil, I don't give a thing on whom started what... I just came on this thread out of interest(because of the activity here) and have seen what this thread became. The rest of the content doesn't interest me. I am pretty happy of my identity and proud of it, I don't need a history of a billion year and being the first White "race" on this planet.

Edited September 6, 2004 by Fadix

[Vigil]

WINNER

Hrant & Gayane Hrant + Gayane Parseghian Records

 

First time ever! Armenian black teens on a set of Armenian songs

 

 

 

[DominO123]

Gamavor, why are you acting like a lawyer?

[Vigil]

Look Vigil, I don't give a thing on whom started what... I just came on this thread out of interest and have seen what this thread became. The rest of the content doesn't interest me. I am pretty happy of my identity and proud of it, I don't need a history of a billion year and being the first White "race" on this planet.

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Then you should be happy calling yourself a Canadian!

 

Fine, if you do not like to learn about your own history then you should be satisfied with Ataturk's sun theory.

[DominO123]

Then you should be happy calling yourself a Canadian!

 

Fine, if you do not like to learn about your own history then you should be satisfied with Ataturk's sun theory. 

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My history starts with the first Armenian Kingdom. That's all.

[Vigil]

My history starts with the first Armenian Kingdom. That's all.

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Exactly, which is what the debate is about. I am satsified with the first Armenian kingdom and if the first Armenian kingdom predates those of the European then they sure as hell better acknowledge it. This is the same double standard that is used when they omit mentioning Cilicia when they talk about the crusades. Most of the European codes of chivelry originated from Cilicia, but then again what would I know.

[kars]

This should be interesting. I am looking into the first edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica, First Edition, 1771. Entry Armenia reads: “a large country of Asia, comprehending Turcomania and part of Persia”.

 

So much for 18 century geography.

 

In the entry titled Armenians, the Ecyclopaedia claims that Armenians “are much addicted to fasting”. Hmmm…

[kakachik77]

Gentlemen, if I may suggest something? Go to this page:

 

http://www.narek.com/ArmenianMusicAwards/2004/

 

and have a look at the winner (at the very top) Aramo. He is Armenian (Armenoid or not). Scroll down and see Michael Pogosian, he is a winner too and is Armenian (but he looks like any Central European). Now, scroll down a little bit more and you will see another winner - Ashot Azarian (again another Armenian who looks like me )

 

Now, can you guess what all of them have in common?

I CAN"T STAND THEIR MUSIC!!!!    

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Gamavor, you forgot to scroll down to Hrant and Gayane, they are the BEST Armenians to me.

Edited May 12, 2005 by kakachik77

[shaunt]

 

Gamavor, you forgot to scroll down to Hrant and Gayane, they are the BEST Armenians to me. 

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That's sweet! I heard about them, but this is the first time I ever saw (and heard) them.

[daos]

the real armenians are swarthy .as were the phrygians as were the mittanis as were hitties.thracians never starded off in europe they lived in asia minor with the early hittie people who did not yet develope an empire they lived side by side they were south ARMENOID by race so that mean they were all swarthy and not white they were brown by color if u wana jujge now. thracians remains shows hight consetrations of millinia in upper derma from thise scientists nkow that they mostly had BLACK HAIR,DARK BROWN EYES,AND TANNISH BROWN SKIN.and they also had narrow slits for eyes differing from the europeans."DIFFERING FROM THE EUROPEANS" meaning they were not white.but they had a NEAR EASTERN look as many armenians have today.armenains were never white they just have hwite people living in there county due to the admixture of people from north of the cacasus. ... thracian murals all showing them as a near eastern lookign people. http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp...rovo_kurgan.jpg http://www.ancient-bulgaria.com/images/Thr...n_something.jpg http://archeologia.bourgas.org/en/images/aleksandrovo.jpg http://www.ancient-bulgaria.com/images/Thr...man_on_hunt.jpg ... so before u start saying that thracians were some EUROPEAN RACE WICH THEY WERE NOT U SHOULD REALLY LOOK OVER THE MAJORITY OF FACTS.as for phrygians they were not one people and they were probalby not related to thracians they might of had a thracian tribe living amogst them like binthinians but they were not the same people they were a mix of diffrent cultures and races just as todays armenians are.

[gamavor]

the real armenians are swarthy

 

Thank you for the compliment. Who the hell wants to be associated with barbarian whites, anyway???

[daos]

the so called indo europeans were the cimmerians who invaded phrygia and also invaded most of the cacasus and invaded atleast half of thracia and most of the anotolian plains those were the people who were killing the natives of those lands. armenian languge has many non indo european words but no one focusus on those.armenians and all people related to them should look like thise http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...l%3Den%26sa%3DN http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

[daos]

oops.... scroll down to the last ones or go to home and go to faces o men from asia minor.

[gamavor]

Not true. Armenoids cannot originate in Pamir for obvious reasons. Also Armenoid is a racial type not ethnicity. None IE words in Armenian are no more than 50-70 (not counting some Persian cognates and some recent colloquial entries from Arabic and Turkic). North Caucasus has no traces of ancient civilizations or any trace of white Europeans that eventually would have moved to Armenia. There are barelefs and sculptures preserved in the Armenian highlands that draw very different picture from what have been presented in this page. Sorry to ruin your parade.

 

Have a look at this page:

 

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/65...ronicle120.html

Edited July 18, 2007 by gamavor

[Arpa]

What exactly are you saying?

oops.... scroll down to the last ones or go to home and go to faces o men from asia minor.

No. You scroll down and see what that article of yours is

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.moodoo.com/moo_doo.htm

[daos]

What exactly are you saying?

 

No. You scroll down and see what that article of yours is

http://www.moodoo.com/moo_doo.htm

 

lol why is it when u prove somethign and the other person has no educational answere he resorts to insults maby becuase of stupidity??what im saying is that armenians are armenoid ARMENOIDS ARE TAUGHT AS BROWN PEOPLE because all the people the armenoids are related to have black hair dark eyes and tannish skin.that is what i am saying.

[daos]

Not true. Armenoids cannot originate in Pamir for obvious reasons. Also Armenoid is a racial type not ethnicity. None IE words in Armenian are no more than 50-70 (not counting some Persian cognates and some recent colloquial entries from Arabic and Turkic). North Caucasus has no traces of ancient civilizations or any trace of white Europeans that eventually would have moved to Armenia. There are barelefs and sculptures preserved in the Armenian highlands that draw very different picture from what have been presented in this page. Sorry to ruin your parade.

 

Have a look at this page:

 

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/65...ronicle120.html

 

ethicity is almost the same thing as racial type becuase most people in a ethincity would ahve same racial type.what do u eman there are no anceitn civilizations in the cacusus what about the adyghe,circassians.they are counted as aboriginals of cacusus.and jsut because they found some artifact of an acine tcivilization that they want to pin on armenians osent make it true.real armenians are decendent of hitties mittanis,phrygians and they are in the same branch as the kurds it has always been taught of like thise.then the iranians tribes invaded kurdistan and kurds learned iranian.how do u nkow that thise people could not have intermigled with the armenians.and no one said that armenains originated in the pamir they jsut have a slightly same look as those people if u look at the facial feutures so they must be RELATED...they all originated in asia minor form iran to iraq to armenia that is where those ancient people lived as found by the artifacts and each of there tribes had a uniqe culture differing form the others.and second persian is also a indo european languge =) sirry to ruin ur parade.

[Arpa]

lol why is it when u prove somethign and the other person has no educational answere he resorts to insults maby becuase of stupidity??what im saying is that armenians are armenoid ARMENOIDS ARE TAUGHT AS BROWN PEOPLE because all the people the armenoids are related to have black hair dark eyes and tannish skin.that is what i am saying.

GO TO HELL!!

Do you see what happened to the likes of you?

Go up an see where "vigil" ended up.

You use words like "swarthy". does that mean "shcwartz/black" , the word used by Nazis to describe Jews?

Why don't you go to hell, that Nazi Heil Hitler! Zig Heil! Zig Heil!!

http://bennettkids.homestead.com/files/heil_hitler.JPG

Edited July 19, 2007 by Arpa