KavorKin99 Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 skittles babe i wouldn't of married him if in the end his going to do that but he is sweet too hun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheekY Posted November 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 yeah Sip the "priest" when he marries an armenian couple asks the guy "ter es?" and the girl "hnazand es?" but just because "ter es" and she is "hnazand" it doesn't give you the right to disrespect the girl her opinions and her decisions! we're not afghans you know... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 skittles, I agree with you that no human can have the right to "own" the other ... the "priest" point was just to illustrate how deeply rooted this type of thinking is. It's not just the "men" ... it's an entire culture (which may have been strongly influenced by the dominant male of course) All I can say is, it WILL change. It has to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 yeah Sip the "priest" when he marries an armenian couple asks the guy "ter es?" and the girl "hnazand es?" but just because "ter es" and she is "hnazand" it doesn't give you the right to disrespect the girl her opinions and her decisions! we're not afghans you know... lol Skittles can you be more specific what you have in mind? What decisions and opinions of Armenian women are disrespected by Armenian men? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheekY Posted November 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 um like i said before...woman=baby making cooking cleaning machine...must obey...must obey... lol oh come on some men don’t even accept it if a woman wears pants! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheekY Posted November 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 skittles, I agree with you that no human can have the right to "own" the other ... the "priest" point was just to illustrate how deeply rooted this type of thinking is. It's not just the "men" ... it's an entire culture (which may have been strongly influenced by the dominant male of course) All I can say is, it WILL change. It has to. are you saying you want women to start controlling men? ah as if we're not doing that already yeah also lots of women say the man has the right to act like that...if he yelled at her (for something really stupid) then it's her fault and she must shutup and accept and change...i wonder if men would still be this bigheaded and "tough" if they didn't have a p*n*s mayr ishkhanutiun hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 um like i said before...woman=baby making cooking cleaning machine...must obey...must obey... lol oh come on some men don’t even accept it if a woman wears pants! I think you are exaggerating... why is it that most Armenian women don't complain like you do? There is nothing at all to compare to Afghans. Not allowing to wear pants is really rare. They are not forced to do the housework, its just the way it is culturally... separation of tasks, men should make money, women should do the housework... or maybe no? And women do have their opinions about politics, life, etc... they do go to college as much as men do, they do go out (with their men mostly), do things to their enjoyment, etc... nothing like a slaves life as far as obeying is concerned, if women had to act against the wishes of their husbands then there would be a lot of divorces and no good families. I don' think it is any better than 'obeying'. If you don't want to "obey", hey, don't get married who is forcing you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accelerated Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 This is a bunch of empty talk, we all know who the 'head' is of most households. Actually, there was a really good line from the 'Big Fat Greek Wedding' movie I remmember (mother explaining to daughter), something along the lines of: "...the man should always be the head of the family, but the woman is the neck so the head only sees what the neck (woman) wants it to see" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheekY Posted November 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 (edited) maybe i'm "exaggerating" but really, i'm talking about whatever i've seen...i don’t know why most Armenian girls don’t “complain” like i do…many girls i know do…they hate those typical hayastantsi old fashioned guys’ qualities…lots of them are rude jerks...well yeah a woman should clean and cook and take care of her children and her husband…if your husband is a nice understanding guy why wouldn’t you wanna please him? and no i do want to get married… i don’t know maybe i’m wrong...i’ve just been really angry lately… Edited November 19, 2003 by skittles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 skittles, you need to find a very open minded armenian guy who is very self confident, educated, well-mannered and gives you encouragement and the opportunity to grow!!--and you are right with most armenian men or even other cultures..with MEN who suffer from LOW SELF ESTEEM; basically you will NEVER EVER EVER EVER! get this kind of support from them!--i've been out with guys who were not compatible with me and i tell you, it is close to IMPOSSIBLE to have a relationship with people with whom you do not click on a certain level!!! regardless of how much physical attraction and chemistry is present!! sad, but true!---so you gotta totally forget about those controlling type of guys, take 'em out of the equation!!! and look more towards guys who are self assured, intelligent, wise, compassionate and LOVE WHAT THEY DO!!! if they don't like their job or their career! that's it!! they'll start dumping allllll that s**t on the girl they're with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-=VAHE=- Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 (edited) Yea I agree with Sasun I think your exaggerating. In my opinion from what I've seen is that women do like those guys and the ones that dont are those women who kick their mens ass but the man doesnt have the balls to even blink. Maybe its because your too Americanized or you just like to control . Also if this so called control crap is Armenian I dont really see anything wrong with it. Also when you think about its a plus for me lol we're not afghans you know... lol Oh yea we arent Afghans but for some reasons we have these afghan feature like the women controling thing. ???? Thats a stupid way of thinking which I see mostly American girls use. I hope you werent serious!! I think Kavorkin said it good : Whatever floats your boat. Edited November 19, 2003 by Vahe G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 this is just a joke! so don't take it too seriously....but there's something about the term "pw" or "p***y whipped" that is soooo appealing!~~well, it has its limits of course! don't want a guy who is totally "ball-less"! ....skittles, i can totally see you in this role! you go girl! ~~~ but, i'll tell you a REAL MAN is NOT "pw'd" however, in order to please his lady he lets her think from time to time that he is!!! now, that's kind o' smart! don't you think!?~~~~again, 'tis all for fun here! i believe people should be who they are and should compromise and NOT just live by someone else's rules~~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 OK, maybe not like Afghanis, but how about the Japanese? Japan's Hybrid Women(November/December 2003) By Ayako Doi Hybrid Woman By Yoko Haruka 238 pages, Tokyo: Kodansha, 2003 (in Japanese) Kekkon Shimasen! (I Won't Get Married!) By Yoko Haruka 246 pages, Tokyo: Kodansha, 2001 (in Japanese) Of all the problems Japan faces, the one bound to have the greatest effect on its future is not North Korea's budding nuclear program, its own unending recession, the dispatch of Japanese forces to a restive Iraq, or even the prospect of a new natural disaster like the earthquake that devastated Kobe in 1995. No, what really threatens Japan's future is the country's shrinking population and, more fundamentally, the astonishing disconnect between Japanese men and women that underlies it. Though Japan's demographic problems may not be news, the figures are astounding. The number of children the average Japanese woman bears has declined almost continuously since peaking at four during the postwar baby boom. As of last year, it had fallen to 1.32—far below the rate required to maintain current population levels. In three years, Japan's population will crest at 127.5 million and then begin a long, slow slide to about half that level by 2100. The consequences for the economy—falling production, plunging land values, and soaring taxes—will be dire. Even more troubling is the cluelessness of the men who run Japan about the cause of this demographic decline. They have never been interested in why Japanese women shun marriage and motherhood; in fact, when Japanese women point out the difficulties they face, men dismiss their complaints as a twittering of birds, unworthy of male attention. That context has given a truly national dimension to the work of Yoko Haruka on the plight of Japanese women. Haruka, a witty, 30-something essayist and television personality from Osaka, describes with clarity and biting humor the exasperation of Japanese womanhood in two recent books—collections of eminently readable essays called Kekkon Shimasen! (I Won't Get Married!) and Hybrid Woman . Haruka begins I Won't Get Married! by describing her treatment at her own father's funeral: She was told to sit and to walk behind her five brothers—younger as well as older—and made to understand that she wasn't wanted on the receiving line to greet relatives and family friends. Haruka warmly admires her sister-in-law, who must put up with endless verbal abuse from her eldest brother, and her mother, who lives with them. The sister-in-law manages to smile self-effacingly even as she scurries to provide for their material needs, right down to putting a cold beer in her husband's hand as he steps out of his nightly bath. Haruka is exasperated by a favorite aunt who talks about her search for an "ordinary woman" to be her daughter-in-law. What the aunt means is a woman who will gladly make do with the 200,000 yen (less than $1,800) a month her son brings home, and who has no aspirations of her own. Haruka is equally turned off by the contented wives of Tokyo's upper crust, who cook like French chefs and live in beautiful homes. "Serve them. Nurture them. If you devote yourself to your husband and children . . . they'll listen to you. Your effort will be rewarded," one of them simpers into her ear. To achieve happiness, a Japanese housewife must forget her aspirations, her dreams, and her own comfort, and subject herself to the will of husband, children, and in-laws. Even if she is smarter than her husband, or can earn more, she must never show it. To be a Japanese working wife, Haruka says, is to play a cleverly designed computer game that one can never win. A woman who tries to follow tradition and do all the chores quickly runs out of energy. But if she leaves the laundry to the weekend or serves TV dinners, her husband will ask, "What kind of woman are you?" On top of that, he wants her to peel his apple, get his cigarettes, make him coffee—and still have enough love and stamina for sex! Imagine how it would be if she had a baby or two? Japanese women have three choices, says Haruka: have no career and get married; abandon a career and get married; or plan a life without men. Japan, she says, has perfected the exploitation of women by combining patriarchy with the country's odd breed of capitalism. For a career woman, emancipated by feminist thought, the only way to true happiness is to stay single—if she can learn to disregard insults from men and rebukes from other women for her status. Haruka is by no means the only one to commit the sorry state of Japanese womanhood to paper. In 1997, the government commissioned a white-paper analysis of shoshika—the decline in childbearing. The team that wrote it, led by Michiko Mukuno, a married bureaucrat who is childless herself, blamed outdated social codes that condemn married women to 100 percent of the household chores so that husbands can devote 100 percent of their time and energy to their employers. After young women began taking professional jobs in the 1970s, the rules still didn't change. Even the U.S. State Department devoted three pages to the abuse of and discrimination against Japanese women in its latest human rights report. It noted that though women make up 40 percent of Japan's labor force, they hold less than 9 percent of management jobs and on average earn only 65 percent as much as men. The report blamed the dual-track employment system in which women are hired as tea-pouring secretaries and given no chance for promotion. Despite laws that mandate equal employment opportunity (though without any penalty clauses), that system not only persists but has been made worse by recession-strapped companies that replace full-time administrative staff with part timers. In politics, the numbers are equally discouraging. Only about 10 percent of Japan's 727 Diet members are women; just 4 percent of local governments have female chief executives. Though prime ministers in recent years have named women to cabinet posts, most got there by following the rules of a male-dominated political structure. Once they start trying to work their wills on the powerful national bureaucracy—becoming the nail that sticks up, as did former Foreign Minister Makiko Tanaka—they risk being pounded down. Tanaka's ugly and drawn-out dismissal in 2002 as foreign minister after only nine months in office may have had less to do with her gender than with her prickly personality, but a great many Japanese women, not least Haruka, are convinced otherwise. Tanaka was ousted, Haruka says, because she refused to play dumb to avoid insulting the empty egos of her male colleagues and rejected the cozy world of privilege enjoyed by bureaucrats and politicians. But to the dismay of true feminists, these lessons have forced Haruka into a defensive crouch. In Hybrid Woman, she advises women tired of swimming against the tide to play cute rather than to challenge male superiority—to trick men into thinking they need empathy and protection. "Let sympathetic men fight your battles with male hostility," she says. A hybrid woman knows how to use those around her to achieve happiness. "Men, company, marriage...these are things you can use to achieve your goal, but if they are of no use, discard them," she writes. "Don't blame men, or depend on them. . . . Don't live for your husband, much less for your company. Live only for yourself." Who can blame an aspiring Japanese woman for doing what it takes to find success and happiness in a system that would otherwise deny her them? Indeed, men and women in Japan these days are going their separate ways, interacting and understanding each other less. More and more young women organize their lives—preparing careers and buying condos for themselves—around the principle that they'll never marry. Though the increase in the number of divorces among those in their 20s and 30s has slowed, it's mainly because fewer of them now marry in the first place. In contrast, the divorce figures among couples married for 30 years or more are climbing at double-digit rates. In a country that tops the world in life expectancy for women, increasing numbers of middle-aged women refuse to spend their long retirements with self-centered spouses. Some of them are even buying cemetery spaces of their own to avoid being tied to their husbands and in-laws for eternity. As Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi moves to overhaul the tax and pension systems, the social consequences of Japan's motherhood-unfriendliness are becoming painfully clear. The government tax commission is now discussing how to limit the tax burden on individuals to a mere 50 percent of income over the next 20 years, without significant degradation of services. The reason: The baby bust means there will be so many fewer workers in Japan over the next couple of decades that taxes would have to rise to 60 percent of incomes or more to fund current pensions and standards of elderly health care. Worried local governments are organizing conferences these days on the causes of and remedies for shoshika. Even so, Japanese men still don't seem to get it. At one of those forums, held in Fukuoka in June, former Prime Minister Yoshiro Mori asserted that women who don't bear children are unworthy and ought to be denied public pensions. "The government takes care of women who have given birth to a lot of children as a way to thank them for their hard work. . . . It is wrong for women who haven't had a single child to ask for taxpayer money when they get old, after having enjoyed their freedom and had fun," Mori said. His comments received many approving male nods. Ayako Doi is editor of The Japan Digest, at Japandigest.com. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/story.p...p?storyID=13976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 (edited) Whew, I almost missed this topic. Skittles, I agree with every single post you've put here. You're not the only one who thinks that Armenian men are contolling. Every Armenian girl that I know just dreams about meeting a nice Armenian guy who shows respect and an understanding of equality towards women. Of course people always like to have power, and controlling women (or thinking that there is nothing wrong with controlling women) gives Armenian men power. And thus we have quotes like it's just the way it is culturally... separation of tasks, men should make money, women should do the housework... As much as I hate to admit it things haven't changed much since the Women's Rights movement started. Men still make twice as much money working the same jobs as women. But women are as much educated and qualified to do these jobs as men. Of course, slowly but surely things are changing for the better and I am positive that in the near future we'll see women getting as much pay as men. Now, just because under current circumsances men are earning more money than women, doesn't mean that they should view women to be inferior to men. Thinking that women should be obedient and "hamest" and let the husbands be the "head of the family" means exactly that. Most Armenian men, even younger guys (20-25 years old) think that they should have the final say, regarding anything, when they are married. Even though women aren't quite considered totally equal yet even in American culture - unequal pay - Armenians are far behind when it comes to respecting women. Examples include only women doing household chores. Well... if both the husband and the wife have eight hour workdays then wouldn't it make sense that when they come home they share the home chores? Otherwise, it just seems correct to view the woman as a servant in her own home. Yes, that would mean that the Armenian men should consider learning how to wash the dishes and not be embarrassed by it! But if you mention this to any Armenian guy (OK, MOST Armenian guys) they will just freak out. Ok, I think I stated my point. Sorry this came out to be such a long post. But I just got so angry reading some of the narrow-minded replies posted here. This is year 2003 people! Isn't it time we finally came to relize that we shouldn't even try to justify how it's best for the family if men control and women stay "hamest" and "hnazand"? Instead we should talk about how a marriage is a union of two equal powers in which conflicts are solved only with the consideration and understanding of both the husband and wife. Edited November 19, 2003 by anoushik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 this is just wrong. in average Armenian men probably have more respect and show more care toward women than, let's say, Americans. it may not be apparent because of the way Armenian society is structured. in Armenian society, the roles of men and women don't overlap as much as they do in that of the American. and part of it is because Armenian society is less individualistic. an American person has to learn and do everything because ending up living alone without anybody's support is very likely. which is not the case with an Armenian person, who is more likely to end up living with someone, if not a spouse then a relative.i don't want to draw a rosy picture. domesitic violence exists among Armenians as it does in every other society. but i don't think Armenian men see women inferior. (there are always the psychos). there are men who verbally or physically abuse their wives, but i don't think they do it because they feel a superior being above women, but are socially aggresive and challenged people. those people wouldn't lose the chance to verbally or physically abuse anyone, be that man or woman. (the wife is always there, that's why she is victimized more). this kind of behavior is, unfortunately, common among Armenian men who have been through the twisted regime of the Armenian Army.and as for the Diasporan men... well i don't want to offend anyone, but by my observation, most all are in either side of the extreme. some are just puppies living under their wives' scirt. and some are living by the standards their grandfather told them is Armenian (late 19 - early 20 cen.). Inet time's up. back to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 this is just wrong. in average Armenian men probably have more respect and show more care toward women than, let's say, Americans. What 're you talking about???? Are you serious???? Please be more specific. <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheekY Posted November 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 really harut? lol yeah like they might sometimes open doors for us...is that what you're talkin about? "an American person has to learn and do everything because ending up living alone without anybody's support is very likely. which is not the case with an Armenian person, who is more likely to end up living with someone, if not a spouse then a relative."...i think we should learn to be a bit more independent...especially men lol some find it really difficult to get a glass of water without a woman's help oh yeah and i was kidding about the afghan part...but we're still not very far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-=VAHE=- Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 (edited) See what I dont understand is how people turn Marriage into a damn Mathematical problem. With life being so complex and marriage the same how can you freaking make it into a math problem like dividing tasks by 2 and trying to make everything equal 50/ 50. Anyway I have nothing else to say other than maybe you have been looking into the lower percent of our people to get a picture of Armenians. Look again. also well said Harut Edited November 20, 2003 by Vahe G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KavorKin99 Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 i mean over controlling is very sad but most people think it's the only way out ya know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 (edited) See what I dont understand is how people turn Marriage into a damn Mathematical problem. With life being so complex and marriage the same how can you freaking make it into a math problem like dividing tasks by 2 and trying to make everything equal 50/ 50. Anyway I have nothing else to say other than maybe you have been looking into the lower percent of our people to get a picture of Armenians. Look again. also well said HarutWhat Harut was talking about was domestic violence. It doesn't apply to this topic. Of course only lunatics beat their spouses and I never accused the Armenian men beating their wifes. But we are talking about men thinking they are superior to women and this is a mentality that most Armenian men posses. KavorKin you posted earlier that you like to be controlled. All I can say is that maybe you married too young and you need a babysitter telling you what to do. Edited November 20, 2003 by anoushik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KavorKin99 Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 anoushik that's your oppnion but in my oppnion i didn't marry to young and i am married very happiliy why does it concern you how old i marry? Actually we need a baby sitter to take care of baby soon...thanks muahzzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 KavorKin, I didn't mean to offend you. Everyone has different lives and no one has the right to tell you if the life you're living is right or wrong. If I did offend you I apologize. But Kavor, don't you really think that women are supposed to be "hamest" and obedient in a typical Armenian family? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KavorKin99 Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 no problem my badzz babe...ya we r supposed to be hamest and all cuz i am guessing husbands want a xelok and hamest girl right? i mean what do u think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 Both men and women have the same intellect (more or less, depends on education) but just because a person is born a male doesn't mean that he automatically becomes the "head of the family". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KavorKin99 Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 ya that's true you are right like in most homes the mom is the head of the family..but when a girl is like real shy n stuff it's usually the husband u know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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