New Armenians In U S

[Sip]

I was going to reply to this in the daily impressions thread but it's probably not a bad idea to have a dedicated thread to it.

 

Sip, I don't live in LA anymore but my family does (not wife,kids) and I call them often and the impression is with real facts that Armenian cummunity is no longer looked upon with respect as once was the case. These factors are not fiction but real.

Here in the East -Boston,NY,Rhode Island Armenians are very respected and have an excelent reputation however there are also less or fewer Armenians from Armenia.You make your conclusions!

 

Here's my perception on what may be the problem. Feel free to add/agree/disagree:

 

My main observation with the "new arrivals" in LA/Glendale is that they are not used to having systems in place that work. Their entire being and their mentality almost always seems to revolve around finding ways to go around the system ... to find holes ... to do something wrong for a gain. Either that, or completely abusing the existing systems and stretching them to cover areas where they were never intended to be used for.

 

I can use a very close friend of mine for example. He is from Armenia and we both arrived in the early 90s I guess. We were both students at UCLA and both had very good jobs at the time (few years ago when high tech was booming) so money wasn't really an issue for either of us. One day we go to a fast food place, and there was this special deal that he could get a free drink with his work badge. You will not believe the extents to which he was willing to go to get BOTH of us free drinks with reusing that badge. It all resulted in a fairly embarassing incident of them realizing he was trying to pass the badge back to me and I of course suck at this kinds of things!!!

 

Anyway, the point was, I'm sure the cost of the drink itself was not the reason. It was something in his blood that was forcing him to do this stupid thing. I mean I would have gladly paid for two drinks for both of us! But he on the other hand looks at me like there is something wrong with me for not trying to "take advantage" of this opportunity... and he genuinely considered me the idiot while I felt the same about him!

 

Of course this was relatively a very harmless incident and rather humerous. But I think it is a clear indication and basically goes to the heart of why our buddies arriving from Armenia simply do not "fit in" right away and cause so much chaos. The systems in the US work. They are not perfect of course but probably much better than anything else that has ever existed before. If you live by the rules, you'll do more that great. There is no need for any funky business to get ahead!!! Yet that is not something that is too obvious to the new arrivals its seems.

 

And thus, the mentality they bring with themselves from those parts of the world is what is leading to what Armat is talking about I think.

[Sasun]

A agree Sip. They are not used to living by the law and rules of the society. In Soviet Union you had to break the law if you wanted to live a normal life, and even more laws if you wanted to be rich. That mindset persists and has developed into something worse in present Armenia.

I met a group of relatively new arrivals. They were asking me for and advice: vonts karanq srants qutsenq? They thought all Armenians are in that business. That's sad...

[sev-mard]

Thats interesting that both of you said that. One of my Barskahye friends was giving me this speech about how other Armenians in Glendale & Burbank areas can be shady sometimes. He said "Imagine if you lived in communist armenia or in a country where you had to be shady to survive, and then you come to america, it easy to steal or do shady things!" He was telling me that it's almost like many can't believe how easy it is to 'get over' on simple things in America so they do.

[ED]

Sasun, Seapan

 

I think if we look at the soviet Union, then we must also look at our entire history, the causes are many, we rarely had our own government, we were always subject to a foreign rule and “laws” Vast majority of our countryman don’t believe in any kind of law.

 

Lets take for instance an Armenian who came here 25 years ago, is he changed? I would say yes, at list vast majority of it, I remember when we came to LA, all we got back then from our fellow Armenians was cold shoulder and disgust, I know the problem is deep rutted, Martin in his article has expressed it right.

 

We are no deferent then others, fundamentally all humans have thirst for morality and law in order. It is just a matter of time.

[Azat]

Sip, I think the example that you brought is relatively harmless. I see that amongst all nationalities and not just Armenians who are new arrivals. However the bigger picture is absolutely true and it is not just new arrivals.

 

If Armenians learned one thing well in Armenia under the Soviet system it was how to cheat the system. There is a saying in Armenian “aseghi tsakits portsum en ught antskatsnen”(trying to pass an camel through the hole in a needle)

 

Just look at all the fraud in the medical community for example. LA Times as recently as 6-9 months ago had an article that specifically mentioned about the Armenian doctors who had defrauded the medical system with some 1 billion(yes billion) dollars in CA alone. These are very educated people who have been practicing medicine for a long time in the states and it is not like they are dying for money, but they always look for loopholes in the law and even worse break the law knowingly. Unfortunately the Armenian community has another negative trait and that is that we never want to talk about the bad things about ourselves. We never expose these people, we continue to support their criminal activities by continuing to visit them and on and on and on.

 

And it is not only doctors or a specific group. Other examples can be found in Section 8 housing program, Welfare, Social Security, Food Stamps. There was an article in Glendale Press a while pack that I posted here about a 51-2 year old man who was “disabled” and was getting financial aid from the government including welfare and was going to Maple Park, also known as “Glendale Casino” and gambling most of the day there with other “Disabled” people. Please…

 

And it is true. I look around and see all Armenians as very hard working people who come to this country to try to achieve something better for their kids and themselves, but also see MANY from Armenia who look for ways to milk the cow(United States system). I don’t even get it, why would you want to stay home (or work for very low pay under the table)and not amount to ANYTHING in your life when you can work a bit harder and achieve something. Don’t know.

 

I wish I knew how to stop it but I don’t and I think it is going to take lots of education and possibly even public shame to change them.

[Accelerated]

We have the same problem here, but on a vastly smaller scale of course. Our Arab friends manage to grab the headlines on these sort of things instead. Edited October 30, 2003 by Accelerated

[Harut]

the American dream, baby, the American dream...

get rich fast, easy, and dirty...

[Lev7]

Why should the hispanics and blacks milk the U.S. and not the Armenians? Gotta take advantage while you can. There is an Armenian saying, "ovor kerela u xmela, dran halala" Edited November 3, 2003 by Lev7

[Armat]

Why should the hispanics and blacks milk the U.S. and not the Armenians? Gotta take advantage while you can. There is an Armenian saying, "ovor kerela u xmela, dran halala"

There is a flaw with your thinking! Two wrongs don’t make it right. It is fundamentally about principles, character over cheap satisfaction of hallow achievement! Who the hell cares what others do! You got your own pride!!

[Lev7]

There is a flaw with your thinking! Two wrongs don’t make it right. It is fundamentally about principles, character over cheap satisfaction of hallow achievement! Who the hell cares what others do! You got your own pride!!

What pride??? I do not know about the Armenians here, but the Hayastancis lost their pride after Gorbachev sold the USSR to America. Have you even been to Armenia? People beg for money on every conrner and people starve and you are talking about pride, please. It's more important to feed your family than starve but have your pride. I lived during the horror years in Armenia, where we had no electricity, bread nor heat and you had to do everything to survive. So don't go judging Hayastancis. They come here for a better life and why not get some money from the government. That money is wasted on stupid wars and goes the black families who lived all their lives here. Right now pride means nothing to people who come here with nothing and have to start all over again. So my advice to the people who judge Hayastancis is to go to Armenia and live there with the salaries that people receive there and then we will talk about pride.

Edited November 4, 2003 by Lev7

[Azat]

All those are good reasons to steal. Bravo.

[Armat]

All those are good reasons to steal. Bravo.

I could not have said it better!

[-=VAHE=-]

Lurj They really are halala aper

[vava]

Is it not our responsibility as established Armenians in north america who 'know' the systems, to help with the transition? Do new-immigrant Armenians get proper support and 'education' from appropriate resources? Or do we just leave them to fend for themselves, with the only means they know how?

 

Hmmm...

[ED]

Vava jan, while you think about it, I want to add one more question to the chain.

 

whouldent it help?

[-=VAHE=-]

I think there pretty established already but need some help in certain areas. But its interesting how if any of you had lived within them or in Armenia for atleast a couple years you would do everthing they do.

[Vayri7X]

Why all the concern about new arrivals economic strategies? Hell, they're just gettin by - and it's not like they got the power to pull an Enron and f*ck over a ton of folks in the process.

 

 

So somebody steals some time away from the State . Bravo! I 'd better it go to them then some SOA-trained death squad in Columbia, or corporate welfare.

 

"I detect in this thread an undercurrent of the "boot-strap" theory ( aside from the obvious racism { re: comments about blacks and hispanics & welfare, although it is documented widely that poor whites constitute the largest demographic on the welfare rolls <_< } and straight-up classism. Note: I'm *not* designating the posters who typed this as inherently being so, I am just observing that the lines of thought expressed can be traced to popular ideas that embrace race and class to bolster ideas to separate "good" workers and groups from "bad" workers and groups.

Make it a "moral" issue, and you miss other factors to better understand folks strategies.

 

This ( boot-strap theory) is the idea that one should " pull themselves up by the boot-straps" , and dismisses other factors that contribute to the choices people make to survive.

 

 

 

A certain "keep-up with the Jones'" je ne se quois, where we are horrifed that our idealized positive "model minority" image would be blemished by the new arrivals taking up behaviors that associate them with activities normally ( and wrongly) associated with demonized minorities.

 

I like what has been said about "survival skills" ,as it seems to make the most sense considering the conditions my fellow armos speak about ( like mind-warping bureaucracies and chintzy nepostism).

[ExtraHye]

I understand everyone wants to get rich quick by stilling, and cheating from the government. All this just to live the "American Dream." But sooner or later, they will get caught. And when they do get caught, they have to worry about getting a good lawyer so they could stay out of jail, etc., etc.

 

So how needs all that extra burden. Why can't people be happy with what they have? <_<

[poghosyan]

I agree with all of you on this issue. I really don't think that it's a good thing to cheat and steal, but I can understand where people are coming from the way they think. By the way there are a lot of Armenian newcomers that are very educated and very active in the society, it's not just the bad ones. I think it's just an Armenian trait to try to outsmart everybody else. They don't think of it as stealing, they don't think of it as cheating. They are so good that they can outsmart the whole big bad American government.

 

The solution to this problem is time. Armenians are a very educated nation, and they like to be talked about in a positive way. So, it will happen. In the meantime, I like Vava's suggestion of the more established Armenians trying to help the new ones to understand the system and how you can survive in this country without cheating your way to the money. I don't see this interaction at all. Look at the Jewish communities. Very smart, they support their newcomers until those get strong enough to support others. This chain works for them. I'm not saying the exact thing would work with Armenians(we all know how unique we are), but something like that would sertainly help.

What I see though is reluctance on the part of the 'old' Armenians to have anything to do with the 'new' Armenians, automatically assuming they are criminals or whatever they assume. If we don't see the differnece within ourselves, how are other nationalities going to?

[KavorKin99]

it's sad there not gonna be any armenians in armenia huh?

[AnoushBabyGirl1]

Armenians in LA are no worse than a lot of Russians, Ukranians, Serbians, other Europeans. Even some Persians do the same thing, eg. Healthy Familys, Section 8, and they are all rich .

 

I would say that Armenians are much more respected than blacks, Mexicans, Salvadoreans, Cambodians, Thais, and Filipinos in general, and the only reason people talk so much shit about them is because they are jealous.

 

"re: comments about blacks and hispanics & welfare, although it is documented widely that poor whites constitute the largest demographic on the welfare rolls"

 

well, there are more white people in the us on welfare because there are more white people than anyone else here, but there is a larger percentage of black and latinos on welfare than whites.

[sev-mard]

I would say that Armenians are much more respected than blacks, Mexicans, Salvadoreans, Cambodians, Thais, and Filipinos in general, and the only reason people talk so much shit about them is because they are jealous.

Ok... <_<

[Dan]

I would say that Armenians are much more respected than blacks, Mexicans, Salvadoreans, Cambodians, Thais, and Filipinos in general, and the only reason people talk so much shit about them is because they are jealous.

I disagree.

 

How are Armenians more respected or respectable than blacks, etc.?

 

I refuse to respect Armenians here in Toronto, simply because they are rather mean and most of them have no occupation other than gossiping. Of course, if there is an Armenian who does not subscribe to the personality traits of the mainstream Armenian community here, then yeah, I respect him/her, but other than that, no, I don't respect a lot of Armenians. Just 'cos they're Armenians doesn't mean that I have to respect them and turn a blind eye to their bad side, and if I talk shit about them, it's not cos I'm jealous of them, as I'm an Armenian too.

 

There's good and bad in every race/group, and consider this, there are more black people in U.S.A. than there are Armenians... Proportionally, they would have more bad people...

Edited December 5, 2003 by Dan

[phantom]

I disagree.

 

How are Armenians more respected or respectable than blacks, etc.?

 

I refuse to respect Armenians here in Toronto, simply because they are rather mean and most of them have no occupation other than gossiping. Of course, if there is an Armenian who does not subscribe to the personality traits of the mainstream Armenian community here, then yeah, I respect him/her, but other than that, no, I don't respect a lot of Armenians. Just 'cos they're Armenians doesn't mean that I have to respect them and turn a blind eye to their bad side, and if I talk shit about them, it's not cos I'm jealous of them, as I'm an Armenian too.

 

There's good and bad in every race/group, and consider this, there are more black people in U.S.A. than there are Armenians... Proportionally, they would have more bad people...

I agree with Dan to the extent that I think black Americans are more respected than Armenians for at least two reasons: 1) black Americans have a much longer and richer history in this country; and 2) few Americans know what an Armenian is, so they can't respect who they don't know. Regarding the first reason, black Americans have contributed in countless ways to the enrichment of American culture. For example, they were at the forefront of new and revolutionary forms of music, such as Jazz and Rock n' Roll; their churches have enriched and enlivened the Christian religeon here in the United States; their writers and poets, such as Maya Angelou, have given us a new American perspective; their political activism has benefited all of us by further securing our rights and liberties; they are at the forefront of American pop culture and American sports culture. The list goes on and on.

 

Dan, regarding the rest of your post, I take issue with your destructive criticism of our people. I know it is the belief of some here that we Armenians could use a little criticism, but there's a difference between constructive criticism and destructive criticism and unfair generalizations. You will never be able to convince me that MOST Armenians in Toronto have no other occupation than gossiping. These types of overreaching generalizations that you make are unfair and uncalled for. If your characterization of Armenians was true, then we wouldn't be achieving anything in this world, which obviously isn't the case. For example, just last week an Armenian named Nerses Krikorian won the Los Alamos National Laboratory Medal for his scientific achievements at the Los Alamos National Laboratory. That is the highest honor that any scientist can get from the Los Alamos Laboratory. Another example: Associate Professor Levon Khachigian of the UNSW Centre for Vascular Research just recently won the prestigious University of New South Wales Eureka Prize for Scientific Research. The prize is awarded for outstanding, curiosity-driven scientific research by an Australian scientist under the age of 40, which is judged to be under-appreciated by the Australian public. Professor Khachigian won for his innovative research that has greatly increased our understanding of the basic molecular mechanisms of how harmful genes are switched on and off in cells of the artery wall, and for developing new DNA-based drugs that block arterial renarrowing after balloon angioplasty and solid tumour growth. His ground-breaking work has been published in top scientific journals such as Nature Medicine and Science. Another example: Armenia’s Cosmic Ray Division (CRD), coined “A Space Weather Aerie”, by Richard Stone of SCIENCE magazine in the August 29 issue, has been selected by the World Summit Awards (WSA) grand jury for having one of the top 5 WSA products in the category of e-science. Its web site DVIN for ASEC (Data Visualization Interactive Network for Aragats Space Environmental Center) was selected out 800 projects from 136 countries nominated for this competition. The winners were selected during deliberations from October 17 to 22 by experts from 36 countries.

 

Now, if all that Armenians ever did was gossip, we wouldn't have much time to strive for such amazing achievements.

[Dan]

You will never be able to convince me that MOST Armenians in Toronto have no other occupation than gossiping.

OK, but I take it you've never even visited Toronto and been involved in the Armenian community here. So how do you know that they're not? And for the record, I did not mean that they don't work when I said they don't have any other occupation. I meant that they are just obsessed with gossiping and seem to do it so often that it is their secondary occupation, sorta.

 

These types of overreaching generalizations that you make are unfair and uncalled for.

Those are not generalisations. Those are observations. And when you actually KNOW what it's like here, then I don't think you're in any position to accuse me of generalising. Furthermore, I said that there are a few good Armenians in Toronto, who aren't into imitating other cultures, who are proud to be Armenian, and who don't go to "agoump" in order to meet boys/girls and find a date for themselves. Sad but true - that's the state of the Armenian community here. About 90% of the people who go there are like that. I know almost all of them, as I have been in Homenetmen Toronto for some time, and am there quite often. <_<

 

If your characterization of Armenians was true, then we wouldn't be achieving anything in this world, which obviously isn't the case. For example, just last week an Armenian named Nerses Krikorian won the Los Alamos National Laboratory Medal for his scientific achievements at the Los Alamos National Laboratory. That is the highest honor that any scientist can get from the Los Alamos Laboratory.

Jesus Christ, I didn't say ALL Armenians in the world have no occupation other than gossiping. Talk about generalisation.. And for the record, I am not so proud of Kriokorian receiving that medal. You probably guessed why. I had a debate about this with my mom today, and I'm NOT gonna get into that. I repeat, I am NOT gonna get into that, so don't even go there and tempt me to reply.

 

Now, if all that Armenians ever did was gossip, we wouldn't have much time to strive for such amazing achievements.

Of course. I never said all Armenians gossip. I said almost all Toronto Armenians do that, and they DO do that. I rarely if ever make claims I cannot support or that aren't true. 90% of the Armenians I know are pretentious. There is an Armenian club at my university - I never go there. I would've loved to, had the people been more mature than to just gossip and stalk others...

 

I am not being destructive in my criticism. There is a difference between being destructive and saying the sad truth.

Edited December 6, 2003 by Dan